dueeast
What's your rationale behind that? I'm curious.

mlai
Most of the time, it's better to be the same than to be different.

mlai
Saying "it's good to be different" is the same as saying "everyone's special," ppl patting ppl on the back.

For 99.999% of amateurs, being different is not because of genius or innovation, it's because of mistakes, bad habits, and lack of skillz.

There are the geniuses out there, but before they became different, they were first the same. Picasso was an excellent technical artist before he became the genius artist.

Why do ppl go to art schools, why buy books for references, why is there a tutorial section, why do ppl give each other art tips? We learn to be the same as the good stuff.

You can't put people down over and over again Mlai, everyone isn't on the same level professionally here. Thats why I look at the Platinum Studios comics with a harsher light than I do people who are here for the fun of making comics. Everyone may not be uniuqe snowflakes, but different things can be better. Say that to someone who buys into the wii motion controls and see what they think.

marine
You can't put people down over and over again Mlai, everyone isn't on the same level professionally here. Thats why I look at the Platinum Studios comics with a harsher light than I do people who are here for the fun of making comics. Everyone may not be uniuqe snowflakes, but different things can be better.

Huh, who am I putting down? The world? Is it wrong to strive to become better? I think it's an admirable trait. When a kid can't spell, is it because he needs to pay attention in class, or because he's special?

Art may be more amorphous, but skill is skill. You learn it thru work. That's why an art teacher is not gonna take your (not you specifically) bullshit if you ignore her instructions and tell her you're special and she's cramping your snowflake. Or an editor.

I just don't think there's a debate on whether or not "striving to be better" is worthwhile. If you work hard and get better than the other guy, then yeah, you're better than he is.

Whether someone's style is special, or just amateur. To that, a good rule of thumb is "If the same 'special' traits exist in his technical drawings, chances are it's not style."

mlai
Saying "it's good to be different" is the same as saying "everyone's special," ppl patting ppl on the back.

For 99.999% of amateurs, being different is not because of genius or innovation, it's because of mistakes, bad habits, and lack of skillz.

There are the geniuses out there, but before they became different, they were first the same. Picasso was an excellent technical artist before he became the genius artist.

Why do ppl go to art schools, why buy books for references, why is there a tutorial section, why do ppl give each other art tips? We learn to be the same as the good stuff.

Respectfully, while I understand your point, I disagree. Speaking from my own experience and several other early artists I grew up with (who happened to be comic artists), while we may have stunk early on, we did not have formal training but we persevered, took criticism and strove to improve. Eventually, we managed to achieve differing levels of accomplishment artistically and we did not try to imitate anyone else's work. If there was imitation, it was loosely based from an influence and not exact copying for the sake of precision skill.

I have no delusions of grandeur about my ability. I'm just saying it is not necessary to be a copy artist before becoming great. True art is about inner creativity, which is all too often put aside for the pursuit of financial profit. When people do that, it disappoints me and makes me sad, regardless of the realities of finances.

Genius is what you're born with and comes out later in your art. :)

I'm sure that many artists do as you say...but I also think it's unfair to paint so broad a stroke as to include everyone.

I agree that it is important to have a style that separates you from other artists, but I also think that being able to work in a variety of styles is incredibly beneficial. Drawing in the current fad style is fine if you've got other tricks up your sleeve, but if that's all you've learned to do you're pretty much screwed when the fad ends and consumers move on.

I understand Miai's point.
A degree of technical skill is absolutely necessary.

Comic art is as much a craft as an art form.
A carpenter must know how to do a mortes and tenant joint before he can effectively join two pieces of wood to make a chair leg.
It is only when these skills are learnt that one can then use this knowledge to create art.

I do say 'A' degree of technical skill...
Matt Groening is a classic case of a very successful cartoonist, yet his technical skills, especially when he was starting out were very 'amateur'.
'Style' can attempt to hide many technical innefficiencies, and in some cases succeed.
My original statement was because people are always trying to fit into a box by restricting their 'style' to a particular genre.
Sure, learn various styles... this way you can pick up many techniques you otherwise may not come across... but don't restrict yourself to manga or any other...

I agree with working in a style different than yours. Flexibility is the key to a great artist and while you might be a master of your own style, it gets boring after a while seeing the same art over and over again.

I used to only read one type of material but realized that my actual drawings got stale because I never experimented. I then started getting into indie comics and buying anthologies which feature fantastic work in various different styles. It really helped me improve and look at my work in a different light.

Head to your local bookstore and pick up a book called Flight by Kazu Kuibushi. It's an anthology comic series (it's on volume 4 right now) and contains some fascinating work. Definitely a real eye opener.

mlai
Saying "it's good to be different" is the same as saying "everyone's special," ppl patting ppl on the back.

For 99.999% of amateurs, being different is not because of genius or innovation, it's because of mistakes, bad habits, and lack of skillz.

There are the geniuses out there, but before they became different, they were first the same. Picasso was an excellent technical artist before he became the genius artist.

Why do ppl go to art schools, why buy books for references, why is there a tutorial section, why do ppl give each other art tips? We learn to be the same as the good stuff.

I totally agree with mlai.
We all did this when we were younger... copied other artists.
Why?
We liked it and wanted to draw like them.
This should be encouraged for a lot of artists.
Learn the basics firsts.
Understand the structure.
Comprehend form.
This is needed first before actually striving for any kind of style.
So many people strive to be different and create their new innovative style that they lose touch with the underlying skills to make the comic truely innovative and soar.

Well, before the comic, I tried to be like everyone else at my school (fake Japanese kids) and draw anime, but it just didn't really work out. I wasn't good at keeping that style and I always felt like I was copying off of DBZ or Inuyasha.

I like cartoons, mainly the older ones with an interesting style. It's probably were I base everything I draw off it.

I don't really know how I draw. I guess one could call it "toony" or something like that, but whatever. My personal thoughts on toony is something that doesn't have physical boundaries (in another words, were I can stretch a characters arm 30 ft or so and the character feels no pain). My characters are bound by can actually happen physically... so, yeah.

==
Should a style fit the times? I suppose. Anime would do better around now then back in the 90's or something.

Some styles fit an all around purpose... you can use it at anytime, pretty much anywhere. Something like, off the top of my head, Edgar Allan Poo. The art the nice, but not anime, nor toonish, just... nice.

Not trying to go against the grain here. While I agree in being able to do other styles -- I've personally been having a blast doing that with fanart for other DD comics -- AND I agree that when we have no style of our own as kids and/or early artists, we imitate what we like. What I don't agree with is that it is essential to learn formal technical training to develop into a good artist. I don't deny that those skills are beneficial and one should be always open to learning and trying new things.

I have never had formal/technical art training but I have been drawing since 1980. It may well be true that technical training may have cut down the amount of time it took my skill to develop, but it did eventually develop and is still developing. I'm sure my story isn't so unique...and maybe I'm just not a fan of formal art training. :)

Call me spoiled... 8D

Unless an artist is a natural it's probably a mistake to attempt to imitate a specific style in order to be popular or whatever. I'm discounting the necessities of doing what you have to do if you are a professional. I'm talking strictly amateur artist here.

Now all that aside, I also think it very beneficial to study other art styles and practice outright imitation. There's nothing wrong with stretching your art skills.

I used to put a lot of effort into the creation of my own unique style based on what I saw around me and deemed appropriate to shape it toward.

It wasn't until I actually stopped trying that it began to evolve. I'm still getting there, but I'm miles ahead of where I was mere months ago. I think it wasn't until I stopped trying to fit a certain mold it got better.

While I respect people who are experts in, for example, typical Marvel-style, to be able to evolve past that it worth worlds more in my eyes. From my own experience, the time one spends imitating what's around isn't necessarily wasted; it can be an invaluable way to broaden one's tastes and become well-rounded in general. But, in the end, it should just be a stepping stone to creating something unique.

I think the middle way is the best in this. As in, yes, you definitely NEED to have some skills and some knowledge in terms of perspective, anatomy, shading, expression, drapery, landscaping etc etc etc. It is a must to understand the rules before even attempting to break them.

But in the same way, you definitely NEED to have the courage to break away from the rule just enough to see what you can do, what the best way is for you to express yourself visually. I think it's a little bit like handwriting: everyone draws the same basic shapes, but each handwriting is unique down to the point of identifying a single person. I think the same goes for art and that is a great element.

As far as formal art training is concerned, I love to be taught, just like I love to teach, but I hate the teacher who will stomp on a kid's drawing saying his/her theme is stupid or his way of drawing people is for retards. That's a straight way out of the workshop, away from art and any way of expression. Even if the kid feels this is the safe way to draw and tries to pass it off as 'style', he/she stands far better chances of improving if left to practice in that way, than if he/she is shot down because he attempts to do that in order to feel safe.

After all, no matter if you draw manga or DC or whatever, you can't escape the harsh rules of pattern recognition in which the brain works. You will have to abide eventually if you really want to get your message across. ;)

Most of my early drawings were attempts to imitate someone else's style or drawing popular cartoon characters. Haven't all of us began that way? I drew the Smurfs, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Disney characters, etc. etc. In my early teens, I came up with several different styles of my own, inspired by other artists - but they didn't look quite like the inspirations, partly because I wasn't gifted enough to copy them accurately, and partly because I mostly drew from memory. So, in the end, I came up with something that looked as distictly mine. I had one cartoony style, one realistic superhero comic style (however awkward) and one grotesque, caricature style with prominent use of crosshatching.

I went through a manga phase in highschool - but never really drew any comic using it. I never really continued any comic for more than a few pages. Some ended after two or three panels... 7 pages tops.

Then I took a break that lasted... 7 years, if I remember correctly.

"A Bit Cheesy" is the first think I tried drawing after that break. And I wasn't trying to copy any style with it. I just drew it the way I liked it and felt comfortable with, and was easy to do.
That's why I don't use perspective much at all. It's easier that way. I COULD use it, if I wanted to, I did practice one-point, two-point and three-point perspective before, but I find the straight, sort of isometric angles kinda stylish. I'm also used to them, since I'm a CAD designer and the software's default setting is "No perspective" for sheer convenience, and most importantly, accuracy.
I drew the character's faces/heads the way I saw them in my head when I tried to imagine them - not TOO cartoony, but not realistic either. I wanted A Bit Cheesy to be a semi-serious love story - in which humor was one of the chief factors, but a bit melancholy here and there wouldn't stick out like a sore thumb. The character design reflects that in its own peculiar way - or at least I like to think so: the cartoony heads are attached to more or less realistically looking bodies. Other than the big sneakers, their figures are based on me. I try to make the hands as realistic as I can, too. I always use mine for referrence.
I'm not really sure how I got the idea of the limited color palette. I think it might've been the DareDevil comic, drawn by John Romita Jr., it had the same brown and blue theme as my first episode. But then I experimented with other couples of colors: blue, red and green; blue and yellow; blue and red; green and red. Might also be my fascination with symbolism...
The shading of characters vs the backgrounds went in two opposing directions. I soft-shade the backgrounds and cel-shade the characters. In the beginning, I'd cel-shade certain items of the background, too - but as I went on, I discovered how much cooler things look when soft-shaded properly. And for the past couple of pages I haven't even been using contours. Still, I cel-shade the main characters just as I did when I started. That way, it looks kind of like cartoon stills rather than a comic - and I like it enough to keep it that way rather than try to soft-shade the characters, too.

As for formal education in drawing, never really got any. But of course, I did realize the importance of learning the basics. I was curious, too. I think I was 9 or so when I started learning how to shade metal objects, and I loved to do realistic copies of photos with pencils. I didn't try to learn any particular style of doing that, I just tried to make as faithful a copy as I could.

My other issue with formal education is I'd hate my own style suppressed or some style forced upon me. As unprofessional as that might seem... I'm just hostile towards people who are convinced that their own vision is the only right way and everyone else's is by default allllllll wrrrrooooong. And I won't take "Because!" for an answer. If I don't get a coherent explanation why I should change this or that, and if I'm not allowed to say why I think my way does make sense - I don't feel obliged to comply. Simple as that. Because of that, I had some issues with several e-zine publishers. Whenever I tried to argue my point, they'd brush me off with vague, one-sentence explanations, tell me that I'm not willing to "cooperate" (i.e. succumb to whatever unreasonable modifications to my stories they had in mind) then there's nothing they can do for me, orrrr not reply at all. It's not like I'm hostile to advice. It's true that I'm hard to work with, sometimes. Erica called me nazi once - and she's not the only one that had issues with me. But if someone manages to convince me, there's no reason why I wouldn't try and look at something their way. For instance, I was very happy with my baroque style of narrative - until an editor of a magazine told me it's overblown and hard to read. So I toned down - and that was the best thing I ever did for my writing. Similarly, a buddy of mine, who worked as an editor for a magazine, too, told me my style is too explanatory. That kinda shattered me - but eventually made me discover how to use allusion, symbolism and rely on the reader's ability deduce rather than explain everything.

So what I mean to say is, while "Everybody's special" is not necessarily right, perhaps just because one doesn't have a PhD in Arts doesn't mean they're retarded and maybe shouldn't be treated as such ;)

And I think saying Todd McFarlane's and Jim Lee's styles look the same is nothing short of blasphemy! Arrrr!

Regarding art quality, art style, etc, some think being judgemental is being snobbish. Cuz lord knows nobody is right when it comes to art, right?

Like, "you think you can say what art is good art just because you have a bit o' skill. But my style is my style. I have innovative traits you're too blind in your bias to see." That kinda talk.

But I think that sometimes everyone is thinking the same thing but is too embarassed to admit it. Anyways, the point of this post is that I'd like to share this essay with everyone. The beginning and the end are the good parts. The middle gets a bit wordy. How art can be good.

mlai
There are the geniuses out there, but before they became different, they were first the same. Picasso was an excellent technical artist before he became the genius artist.

I thought early Picasso, in his "blue period", was a much finer artist than the mature "genius" of the 20th Century Cubist world.

I hate to say it, because I'm a big fan of his work, but early Renoir was also better than he became after fame and fortune. He got sloppy and self-indulgent in a way that people often do when their style becomes popular.

I totally understand wanting to improve your style, and I encourage that. But I think it's just sad when people feel they need to change their style ENTIRELY because they want to be popular. I know "good art" or at least decent art, is important and defiantly helps when creating a webcomic. But it's not the only thing that matters. You can be the BEST artist in the world and your comic can STILL be bad.
Try to improve yes, try new things, yes. But changing your style because of other people shouldn't happen. Your style is YOUR style, Be proud of it.

Is this the thing Scott McCloud was talking about the different type of artists. Also I was listening to an interview of David Peterson of Mouseguard fame and he was talking about learning from others but don't copy. If you copy a Jim Lee Batman you can only draw that picture of Batman and none other in that style. You'll be best when you are more comfortable with your drawings.

I agree with the folks who are argueing the idea that the first thing you need to do before comming up with a style is to get down the basics. As they said you need a structure in place before you build onto it.

think of it this way, A "Style" without the basic knowlegde is like a building without a foundation. Every peice of a style builds on itself like a building, if you remove a peice in the proccess I'm not going to say it'll fall apart right there but the defects will become more noticable as time goes by.

This is why in the past we always copied our favourite artist, we wanted to be like them and thus started off our foundation on copying, this is a good start but its not going to lead on very far.

Anyways to answer the question Yes it may restrict creativity but theres still a lot of room for developing an a certian style which may lead to a style within a style which I think still requires a great deal of creativity.

The last point I want to get at is this, if you don't learn the basics and you start drawing, don't call your method a style, thats just a cover up for "I didn't really learn how to do it right" Which means when you are critized for incorrect anatomy or shading, using the style scape goat is pretty low, take crits seriously and develope a style.


**Make note I'm not a real artist, no formal training or anything and I've only drawn for like 2 years but this is what I learned during that time. I learned this the hard way, if I ever post my old work you'll see glaring defects in my art, and at one point I was sick of calling it my style. Because truth be told it wasn't a style it was bull crap. Now I'm not saying my art is better now but atleast I'm adhearing to some of the rules of actual human anatomy or physics of lights(I still need to improve that)


Remember this, art is a simpification of what we see in our world and in our minds, to simplyg requires knowlegde of what your trying to simplfy, with that knowlegde the proccess you choose to simplfy become your style.

*walks in thread*

So, uh, "Your style is your style"? I can dig that. Thanks, Catch Phrase of Inspiration!

*leaves*

Okay, I realize it's a bit of a stretch for me but I'm going to try to say something inteligent. As far as technical proficiency is concerned, I think as long as you can draw something interesting who cares what your skill level is? I've had more artistically educated friends call me on my shit draftsmanship and wonky anatomy, which I do work on, however the overall look seems apropriate for the kind of comics I draw. (they're usually polite how they say it though...) There's actually some art that I find interesting because it's sort of unpolished-looking.

humans can do basically only two things:
copy and calculate

i know this makes humans look kinda like robots XD .
but its true.

artwise, we can only learn by observing nature or other artists, but we can't draw things we don't know.
following this logic; nobody's "born with it". there is no such thing as inborn talent. we can only "steal" from our outside world (or let be "inspired" if you prefer XD)

the good thing is that we can "calculate" those things that we learn.
similar to the layer blending in photoshop for example, we can combine knowledge to get "new" ideas.


okay, that said, copying a certain style is only natural. there are many young artists who start off with terribly stereotypical styles, but if they keep going they will eventually find other techniques and forge their own styles.

so copying won't hurt your creativity, not as long as you don't get stuck with only one style all the time!
experimentation is extremely important for improvement.


to sum it up: i think the ideal way is to learn from everyone and everything. our world is so vast and complex that anything can become a great inspiration, its important to walk through it with open eyes. if someone likes a certain style like anime, thats great, but that doesn't mean one should close the eyes for everything else.
and yes, imho its very well possible to both have a style thats popular and one that is new and creative.

alibaba
humans can do basically only two things:
copy and calculate

i know this makes humans look kinda like robots XD .
but its true.

artwise, we can only learn by observing nature or other artists, but we can't draw things we don't know.
following this logic; nobody's "born with it". there is no such thing as inborn talent. we can only "steal" from our outside world (or let be "inspired" if you prefer XD)

the good thing is that we can "calculate" those things that we learn.
similar to the layer blending in photoshop for example, we can combine knowledge to get "new" ideas.


okay, that said, copying a certain style is only natural. there are many young artists who start off with terribly stereotypical styles, but if they keep going they will eventually find other techniques and forge their own styles.

so copying won't hurt your creativity, not as long as you don't get stuck with only one style all the time!
experimentation is extremely important for improvement.


to sum it up: i think the ideal way is to learn from everyone and everything. our world is so vast and complex that anything can become a great inspiration, its important to walk through it with open eyes. if someone likes a certain style like anime, thats great, but that doesn't mean one should close the eyes for everything else.
and yes, imho its very well possible to both have a style thats popular and one that is new and creative.

I agree with you completely. Humans learn from each other.

Some kids grew up with anime/manga, and some grew up with DC comics. Everyone had to start off liking something. I remember copying pictures of pokemon and digimon when I was very young. A very good artist told me that they remembered tracing disney characters when they started getting into art. Hey, we all did that. It's where we all started. It all depends where we went with it and how we changed throughout the years.

I began to learn anatomy, and decided that I wanted a slightly more 'realistic' approach in my art. I don't consider my art to be manga, because (1) the panels are not arranged in the way of a manga, (2) my characters lack 'manga expressions' and 'chibi', and (3) it's not as dramatic. Sure, my style (because of the eyes and hair) looks sort of anime-ish, but it's in the middle. It's my style. I watched pokemon, digimon, sailor moon, and Rurouni Kenshin. My style looks very different from them. (Unless you think all anime looks the same. But that's okay.)

So, it's definately human nature to copy off of something, and change it around, making it yours.

"Talent" is about 5% of the package. The rest is work, practice.

When it comes to being unique or following trends, my rule is this:

If I'm working for someone else and that someone has a style they like (manga, kirby, etc), I do my best to please them according to their desires.

That's because they are paying.

If left to my own devices I draw the way I please. I don't go by trends. I go by what I like.