If it makes you feel any better marine, I got passed over for a job because of union rules. At the time, I was really offended, and in retrospect, it was a bad decision for them, but a great decision for me, since it helped me eventually get to where I am now.

Organizations make bad decisions, which is a given, since they are made up of people. People still deserve a decent wage for their work. Those two ideas are not mutually exclusive.

Cheers.

mapaghimagsik
People still deserve a decent wage for their work.

But who determines what is "decent"?

A trash collector might think his job so vital that he is worth $50 an hour but is that practical? If my trash collection bill tripled so the trash company can pay him that wage it might be worth taking my own trash to the dump. If enough people did that the company would go out of business and the trash guy would be unemployed.

The guy who tightens the nuts on a Buick might think his job is so vital to the company that he ought to make money like the CEO, but any monkey can be trained to do the nut tighteners job, not any monkey can be the CEO. It's a matter of supply and demand that sets what is "decent" in that case.

In the end, what is a writer worth to the studio? Most of the crap on TV is so poor that a few thousand monkeys banging away on typewriters couldn't do much worse. Sure there is some good stuff out there, and the writers who create that ought to do better, but union rules likely forbid that kind of favoritism. All boats must rise together is the motto of the union. If they want to see the big bucks like management does maybe they ought to try seeking individual contracts with reward clauses.

Mister Mxyzptlk
any monkey can be trained to do the nut tighteners job, not any monkey can be the CEO.

You're right, it takes a human being to drive a company into the ground, fire half of his employees to avoid showing a loss and collect millions of dollars he doesn't deserve when he is fired.

You're insistence on calling blue collar workers monkeys is a pathetic attempt at imagining yourself to be superior to somebody. How's that working for ya?

DAJB
It's a shame but the trouble with an oligopoly like movie/TV production (or *cough!* comics *cough!*) is that there are no rival businesses to which the creators can take their services.

Erm, see, I don't think the comics industry has this problem. Not anymore, anyway. There are all kinds of different deals available to comics creators from the old-fashioned work for hire stuff with a page rate to the Image deal, which is basically self-publishing minus having to deal with the actual publishing, and some folks are just straight-up publishing their stuff themselves. The difference being, of course, that putting together a comic book doesn't cost the annual budget of a small nation. But honestly, I look at this writers' strike and I see something that isn't an issue anymore in comics. You don't have to whore yourself out for minimum wage if you don't want to.

spacehamster

DAJB
It's a shame but the trouble with an oligopoly like movie/TV production (or *cough!* comics *cough!*) is that there are no rival businesses to which the creators can take their services.

Erm, see, I don't think the comics industry has this problem. Not anymore, anyway. There are all kinds of different deals available to comics creators from the old-fashioned work for hire stuff with a page rate to the Image deal, which is basically self-publishing minus having to deal with the actual publishing, and some folks are just straight-up publishing their stuff themselves. The difference being, of course, that putting together a comic book doesn't cost the annual budget of a small nation. But honestly, I look at this writers' strike and I see something that isn't an issue anymore in comics. You don't have to whore yourself out for minimum wage if you don't want to.

I'd say you were half right.

There are undoubtedly many more avenues for comics writers and artists to pursue than there used to be - the web being the obvious one, self-publishing another, Image (for the lucky few), yet another. No argument from me there.

But there are similar avenues for screen writers too. Writers can, if they wish, write for small, low-budget indie films or TV programmes that will only appear on YouTube or Open Access TV. In both industries, if you have a great creation and you want to get it out there into mainstream-land, you still have no choice but to accept the terms that are forced on you by the major studios/publishers. I think the similarities are still very relevant.

bobhhh
You're right, it takes a human being to drive a company into the ground, fire half of his employees to avoid showing a loss and collect millions of dollars he doesn't deserve when he is fired.

Yes, because you know everything about running multimillion dollar companies don't you. You obviously have an MBA and 20 years of management experience behind you to make such a statement. Or did you learn everything you needed to know from Micky Moore and his delusional documentaries?

Ever think that when a corp takes on a CEO who "drives the company into the ground" that might just be what the board of directors wanted to happen? Maybe for tax purposes, maybe to cut the deadwood or maybe for reasons too complex for you to comprehend. Then they get rid of him after he did exactly what they hired him to do.

Naw, it's got to be hatred for the little guy that drives them. Raw unreasoned hate for anyone who didn't go to an Ivy League school...

bobhhh
You're insistence on calling blue collar workers monkeys is a pathetic attempt at imagining yourself to be superior to somebody. How's that working for ya?

Tell me this, do you think a 45 year old guy working at McDonald's is doing great? How about a 50 year old sacking groceries at the local Mega Mart? Why is the 40 something who is still doing a menial mindless job on the assembly line any better? To spend ones life doing a job that should be done part time by college kids is pathetic.

Anyone who gets off their butt and makes something of themselves is superior to those assembly line monkeys.

DAJB
But there are similar avenues for screen writers too. Writers can, if they wish, write for small, low-budget indie films or TV programmes that will only appear on YouTube or Open Access TV. In both industries, if you have a great creation and you want to get it out there into mainstream-land, you still have no choice but to accept the terms that are forced on you by the major studios/publishers. I think the similarities are still very relevant.

Well, yeah. You've got a point there. But successful self-publishers have been known to actually do better financially in the comic business than work for hire folks. There are examples of indie productions running in the big leagues in movies too (Being John Malkovich or Blair Witch come to mind), but I'd say they're more rare than in comics.

But I think all this also has a lot to do with the fact that comics is a much smaller industry and therefore it was easier to establish a sense of respect towards the individual creator.

Blah blah. I'm sorry, it's Saturday night, I'm home drawing Bulletproof and I'm rambling. ;-)

Mister Mxyzptlk

bobhhh
You're right, it takes a human being to drive a company into the ground, fire half of his employees to avoid showing a loss and collect millions of dollars he doesn't deserve when he is fired.

Yes, because you know everything about running multimillion dollar companies don't you. You obviously have an MBA and 20 years of management experience behind you to make such a statement. Or did you learn everything you needed to know from Micky Moore and his delusional documentaries?

Ever think that when a corp takes on a CEO who "drives the company into the ground" that might just be what the board of directors wanted to happen? Maybe for tax purposes, maybe to cut the deadwood or maybe for reasons too complex for you to comprehend. Then they get rid of him after he did exactly what they hired him to do.

Naw, it's got to be hatred for the little guy that drives them. Raw unreasoned hate for anyone who didn't go to an Ivy League school...

bobhhh
You're insistence on calling blue collar workers monkeys is a pathetic attempt at imagining yourself to be superior to somebody. How's that working for ya?

Tell me this, do you think a 45 year old guy working at McDonald's is doing great? How about a 50 year old sacking groceries at the local Mega Mart? Why is the 40 something who is still doing a menial mindless job on the assembly line any better? To spend ones life doing a job that should be done part time by college kids is pathetic.

Anyone who gets off their butt and makes something of themselves is superior to those assembly line monkeys.

I tell you what I do know, that my fkn tax dollars constantly go to bail out those corporations when they fuck up. Perhaps if they made a car that didn't fall apart and spit gas out its tail pipe, they wouldn't have to fire their employees to fake a profit.

I officially apologize for unwittingly being led into a hijack, i refuse to muck up this WGA thread with this tangent anymore, if you want to answer this lets take it outside.

bobhhh
I tell you what I do know, that my fkn tax dollars constantly go to bail out those corporations when they fuck up.

Yeah, it would be so much better to give the blue collar slobs welfare and let the corps go down under the burden of all the union extorted bennies... Yeah, that would be a better use of that money.

Someone
Tell me this, do you think a 45 year old guy working at McDonald's is doing great? How about a 50 year old sacking groceries at the local Mega Mart? Why is the 40 something who is still doing a menial mindless job on the assembly line any better? To spend ones life doing a job that should be done part time by college kids is pathetic.

it's about bieng smart with your money, save up.
i saw a documentary of cuban refugees coming to america with nothing. 10 years later they checked on them. those that had squandered their money and just partied and trying to live the high life failed and stayed in poverty and drug dealing.

one refugee worked at a grocery store for 10 years and was smart enough and save his money and invest on his future. he married another cuban refugee and buy a house and even saved money towards his daughter's college fund.

your job isn't your identity, so don't call people pathetic because you think they should be doing something else because of their age.

spacehamster
Blah blah. I'm sorry, it's Saturday night, I'm home drawing Bulletproof and I'm rambling. ;-)

Then stop rambling at once ... We demand more Bulletproof!
:)

subcultured
your job isn't your identity, so don't call people pathetic because you think they should be doing something else because of their age.

So you'd be proud if a son of yours grew up to work the line at Mcdonalds for 40 years?

Mister Mxyzptlk

subcultured
your job isn't your identity, so don't call people pathetic because you think they should be doing something else because of their age.

So you'd be proud if a son of yours grew up to work the line at Mcdonalds for 40 years?

Someone who conserves their money and is ambitious won't end up working on the line and Mcdonalds when they're forty. I worked in various resteraunts for five years, that industry is crazy-go-nuts with advancement for competent, hard working people. My friend Ryan is in his mid-twenties and he's been having an awful hard time finding a job. He recently picked up a job doing dishes part-time at Ruby Tuesdays to bridge the gap (a resteraunt I'd worked at.) If he makes it known that he's ambitious and goes out of his way to work hard he could be a kitchen manager within the year, a manager a year later, and a GM not long after. The reason you have people working on line for forty years is that the type of people who work that kind of job are usually the type of people who aren't ambitious, who party and squander their money, like Sub mentioned.

kingofsnake
If he makes it known that he's ambitious and goes out of his way to work hard he could be a kitchen manager within the year, a manager a year later, and a GM not long after.

That's kind of my point. One ought to progress out of the entry level jobs and work their way up the chain into management or onto other things. A guy tightening the nuts on a Buick for 20 years is the same as a guy flipping burgers for 20 years, a pathetic looser who can be replaced by a monkey who can beat off while riding a unicycle.

Mister Mxyzptlk
A guy tightening the nuts on a Buick for 20 years is the same as a guy flipping burgers for 20 years, a pathetic looser who can be replaced by a monkey who can beat off while riding a unicycle.

The hits keep coming. If you think a mechanic is the same as a burger flipper, I suggest you do your own maintenance in the future.

And by the way, some folks don't much care about advancement. Management is not something everybody craves, genius.

TnTComic

Mister Mxyzptlk
A guy tightening the nuts on a Buick for 20 years is the same as a guy flipping burgers for 20 years, a pathetic looser who can be replaced by a monkey who can beat off while riding a unicycle.

The hits keep coming. If you think a mechanic is the same as a burger flipper, I suggest you do your own maintenance in the future.

And by the way, some folks don't much care about advancement. Management is not something everybody craves, genius.

Yeah I'd have to agree with TNT on this one. It's kinda like a professional comic artist at DC or something. Some comic artists doesn't want to "advance" in the ranks just so that they can be a executive manager at DC. They're known for their work in artwork, and they want to have it be that way for a long time.
So if somebody was to say "You've been an professional comic artist for 10 years? Ha, loser....what happened to you advancing in ranks beyond being an comic artist? do you honestly think it's better to be an artist forever??", that person would be an idiot.

Some people would be happier working with various types of machines than they would sitting in some office managing paperwork. Ever occur to you that the mechanics might just love working on machines to the point where it's basically their life dream--to build motorcycles, etc.
In fact.... There's some mechanics who's already famous for building cars and motorcycles.
like those motorcycle guys: http://www.orangecountychoppers.com/occ/index.html

They have their own TV shows where they're famous for building bikes that has it own theme, etc... and a lot of their motorcycles has been used for movies, etc. They earn a lot of money just for being an Mechanic who builds bikes. So not such a low-grade job is it?

people who works in what might be considered "grunt jobs", is actually providing an valuable service to the public who needs things fixed, built, etc. Without them we wouldn't really get anywhere. So I would hope that people would think twice before dismissing anybody who's been in the same business for 10 years or more as "losers".

i think he meant assembley line worker, not mechanic. Like Charlie Chaplin in Modern Times


The internal combustion engine is the most complicated device ever made. I don't know who'd be foolish enough to underestimate the work those guys do.

kingofsnake
The internal combustion engine is the most complicated device ever made.

Let's not go crazy, now.

What Mr. Happy above doesn't get is that a job is just a job to some people. To others, its their life. I pity the latter group. I know a lot of them. They are their job. They grind and grind and scrape and claw... for what? Some money? WTG. Some of us punch a clock to pay the bills and define ourselves by what we do when we're not working. I run mills, lathes, surface grinders... I do engineering work in the office and do on-site visits to our customers. I've been doing this for close to 10 years. Know what? If you wrote a bio on me, my work would probably be the last thing that you would get to. I don't care about advancement. I care about my wife, my child, my family, my hockey, my comics, my friends... and I'd bet the mechanic is the same way.

And if dipshit above thinks that the mechanic is a "pathetic loser", well, I think that speaks volumes about Mister Mxyzptlk's character, don't you?

TnTComic
And if dipshit above thinks that the mechanic is a "pathetic loser", well, I think that speaks volumes about Mister Mxyzptlk's character, don't you?

I couldn't agree more.

Anybody who is convicnced they are smarter and more important than someone else almost never is.

Mister Mxyzptlk

subcultured
your job isn't your identity, so don't call people pathetic because you think they should be doing something else because of their age.

So you'd be proud if a son of yours grew up to work the line at Mcdonalds for 40 years?

if that's all his ambitions.

Mister Mxyzptlk outlines the sad reality of the US class system... That's based almost entirely on perception. ...false meritocracy.

Personally I prefer the old British type or even the Indian one; at least those are completely obvious, visible, and people openly acknowledge that they're rather negative and out dated, even many of those who subscribe to it.

I have to say that my respect for TNT has grown quite a lot after reading this thread.

ozoneocean
I have to say that my respect for TNT has grown quite a lot after reading this thread.

And my respect for you grew when I found out you know Donkas.

TnTComic
If you think a mechanic is the same as a burger flipper, I suggest you do your own maintenance in the future.

The guy sitting on the assembly line at Buick doing the same task over and over has about as much in common with a mechanic as the guy who sweeps the floors at NASA has to do with the shuttle engineers...

A mechanic has to be able to operate dozens of high tech analysis devices and diagnose all manner of mechanical troubles. The nut tightener doesn't even need to be literate...

some people just don't have the capacity to advance...can't blame someone for having low intelligence.

subcultured
some people just don't have the capacity to advance...can't blame someone for having low intelligence.

Sure, but I don't want the moron to make $20 an hour with full medical for doing a job that a robot would do better. All that crap is driving up the cost of every car that comes off the line.

so it's all comes down to money.

Mister Mxyzptlk

TnTComic
If you think a mechanic is the same as a burger flipper, I suggest you do your own maintenance in the future.

The guy sitting on the assembly line at Buick doing the same task over and over has about as much in common with a mechanic as the guy who sweeps the floors at NASA has to do with the shuttle engineers...

A mechanic has to be able to operate dozens of high tech analysis devices and diagnose all manner of mechanical troubles. The nut tightener doesn't even need to be literate...

Shows what you know. My god, you can't stop yourself, can you?

First, there's no "nut tightener" on an assembly line. I've been to the Buick plants at Flint, Michigan and Ypsilanti, Michigan. I've talked to the guys, seen them do their jobs, gotten a good look at their work. They're skilled guys whose job goes far beyond what you think it does, which should be a surprise to no one, given your penchant for running your mouth about shit you have no idea about. The sheer size of the operation at these plants is staggering, the Ypsilanti facility is over a mile long. If there is downtime, the costs can be enormous. These guys have to know the ins and outs of their machines just like a mechanic has to know cars, because if their machine goes down, the whole operation stops. Aside from unreasonable Redwing love, these guys are smart and skilled.

The jobs that robots can do better... oh my god... Robots do them. Mxyzptlk, you don't know what you're talking about.

You wouldn't get this sort of thing from a marvel super villain. Doctor Doom appreciates the working class.

So does Cobra Commander.

TnTComic
Mxyzptlk, you don't know what you're talking about.

It took this long to figure that out? I'm guessing Art Bell in drag.