Mister Mxyzptlk
A guy tightening the nuts on a Buick for 20 years is the same as a guy flipping burgers for 20 years, a pathetic looser who can be replaced by a monkey who can beat off while riding a unicycle.

Work.

I've done it since I was 10 and worked for my father on weekends, he insisted I learn the value of work. No allowance for me, I had to earn my $$ shoveling ditches and carrying lumber.

It sucked. I don't think I really learned anything by doing it. Personally I have always felt all jobs are important, if they weren't they wouldn't get done. Even as a kid, I was confused by the hierarchy of the work place. Ditch diggers make less than the guys who basically just watch them work and bitch about it. Foremen they're called. I have always thought the guys who are sweating deserve more money than the guys who do the bitching. But reality is quite different, isn't it. The fact is many people today scorn labor. Mr Mxy thinks it's monkey work.

For me I would rather have a person tighten the bolts on my car. That job says a lot more about my safety as a driver than the suits who fire employees to fake a profit.

I have always felt that jobs that suck deserve better pay than jobs that are easy. But in my opinion low pay is yet another way we keep workers in their place. A CEO may have a lot of responsibility, but so do the workers at the assembaly plant. Both can create unsafe cars by their actions. One of the reasons the Japanese kicked our ass in the 70's and 80's is the fact that their CEO's didn't have the snobby pretensions of Detroit. They made less than 10 percent of the inflated salaries our CEO's made.

I'm not surprised. Wealth passes for wisdom in our culture. Trump proposes to tell us how to live our lives because he made money in real estate. And people who keep the whole thing running by toiling at dead end jobs are further humialted by being told they are essentially worthless.

I am insulted to hear the small minded self important bullshit coming out people who imagine themselves superior because they were fortunate enough to avoid or move beyond manual labor. Unions exist because people at the top took advantage of their position and power to oppress their empoyees. I admit unions are not perfect, and can create nearly as many ills as they cure, but they are a neccessary evil when the top management imagine themselves to be so much more important than their employees.

If you have to fire every worker in a company and retrain new employees, how long does that stop production compared to sacking a CEO and getting a new suit to fill his office?

Without labor industry stops.

What do you think?

Certainly all jobs are important. However the vibe I also get from your post is that jobs that do not require labour are easier.

When I first started my job, I was initially very depressed. I'm a teacher at an at-risk school full of aggressive and trouble teenagers who apparently thought I was a substitute. After coming home from a really terrible day, I was further demoralized by someone telling me that I should stop whining. The hardest part of my job was carrying a heavy bag to school. I should try to be a brick layer, that's something to whine about.

It's not that I do not value brick layers. Without them, my house would have probably collapsed on me a long time ago so I have a healthy respect for their work. What I don't appreciate is being told that because my job is not labour intensive, it's probably easier than physical jobs. All I do is stand and talk right? Not like I'm dealing with the social, emotional, and educational well being of society's children.

I think at some point in time, there has to be a recognition of investments and achievements. There should also be a recognition of supply and demand. Certain jobs require people to invest a significant amount of time and achievements. Certain jobs can only be filled by a particular type of person with specific qualifications.

This is why certain jobs are paid more than others. It has nothing to do with how much they suck or who's keeping who down but everything to do with how much skill/knowledge is required and how many people not only have the qualifications but are willing to do it.

So while I respect people who tighten the bolts on my car, I also recognize that there are a lot of people who can tighten bolts (and willing to take on this job too.) But there may not be as many people who could run a company and a company cannot be run by a bunch of people tightening bolts all day. At some point, you're going to need someone who does not spend the day tightening bolts to run the place.

Black_Kitty
Certainly all jobs are important. However the vibe I also get from your post is that jobs that do not require labour are easier.

When I first started my job, I was initially very depressed. I'm a teacher at an at-risk school full of aggressive and trouble teenagers who apparently thought I was a substitute. After coming home from a really terrible day, I was further demoralized by someone telling me that I should stop whining. The hardest part of my job was carrying a heavy bag to school. I should try to be a brick layer, that's something to whine about.

It's not that I do not value brick layers. Without them, my house would have probably collapsed on me a long time ago so I have a healthy respect for their work. What I don't appreciate is being told that because my job is not labour intensive, it's probably easier than physical jobs. All I do is stand and talk right? Not like I'm dealing with the social, emotional, and educational well being of society's children.

I think at some point in time, there has to be a recognition of investments and achievements. There should also be a recognition of supply and demand. Certain jobs require people to invest a significant amount of time and achievements. Certain jobs can only be filled by a particular type of person with specific qualifications.

This is why certain jobs are paid more than others. It has nothing to do with how much they suck or who's keeping who down but everything to do with how much skill/knowledge is required and how many people not only have the qualifications but are willing to do it.

So while I respect people who tighten the bolts on my car, I also recognize that there are a lot of people who can tighten bolts (and willing to take on this job too.) But there may not be as many people who could run a company and a company cannot be run by a bunch of people tightening bolts all day. At some point, you're going to need someone who does not spend the day tightening bolts to run the place.

Actually teaching is very labour intensive, as you can attest when you are home grading tests. Not all labour is bending muscles. I really meant to highlight the difference between management and labour, not between professions.

Don't you feel you work harder than your superintendants and the PTA? And yet they have power over you and your salary.

I'll have to double check since I'm a new teacher, fresh out of the minty teacher's college so I could be wrong with my facts.

However no I don't. Superintendents would probably have more experience than I do and at some point, probably taught in the past. (I'm a bit confused about the PTA since I've always assumed it's voluntary and consist of a mix of educators and parents.) However the teaching profession is very seniority based so this might be contributing to my line of thought. The longer you teach, the more your salary increases.

Attitudes held by either parties aside, I think part of the reason why the difference between management and labour doesn't bother me is because to get to management, you would have had to first do labour. You can't really manage what you don't know and even if you immediately land in a management job, it would have to be because of previous work experiences.

A guy tightening the nuts on a Buick for 20 years... a pathetic looser

I disagree.

Mechanics (licensed) make between $18 (small 2-garage shops) - $40 (if you work for mercedes benz) per flat rate hour.

Unlicensed ones though make minimum - $15 per hour.

Blue collar VS white collar eh?
In the end the same sorts of people work most all fields.

More "intellectual" jobs though don't entirely follow the expected lines. From my experience, Jobs that require more intellectual application are the typical ones of course (being a doctor of some sort, vet, lawyer etc.), but it's also teaching. At the university levels that's greater though. The flip side is that being a stock broker, company CEO, investment banker etc doesn't require much intellectual application. Those are high paying jobs with a lot of responsibility, but basically the same mindset is required to do them as brick laying or whatever. lol!

I've met my share of all of the above, from the high flying business types to sewerage workers. People are people, the same everywhere, But the deeper thinkers, while they can be found literally anywhere and in any occupation, tend to congregate toward teaching, the arts, academia or specialist professions, while your average CEO (for example) will have much the same mindset as... well, a not very deep thinking person anywhere.

Ohh I'll get into trouble for hypocrisy and gross generalisations here, but I did say that it's just based on personal experience. I'm not going to try and point to studies to back that up lol!

The local radio stations call in shows have been bitching about how "Back in the day" everyone in town worked at the factory making clocks, and now that job "Has gone over seas" and now all that's left is stuff like retail. Well, I've done both and to be honest, I'd rather be punched repeatedly in the balls by a midget while flipping burgers than EVER set foot in a factory ever again. I don't know how the Holy Hell those AFL/CIO guys do it. I really don't. Nor do I understand what's suppose to make those "good jobs" that people should want.

As far management goes, I've been lower management and got to "peek behind the curtain" at what middle management goes through and I want nothing to do with it. My manager's manager at my old job was salary. Salary is just another word for slave. He worked 15-20 hours a day because upper management had no idea what actually went on in the trenches and they had to sacrifice to keep their jobs. They can have all that money.

Factory work is only better than retail because they pay you an extra few bucks an hour as compensation if you lose a finger or three in the machinery.

While I have certainly been in a job situation similar to the one first described - slaving my ass while a labeled "manager" of sorts sat around and made money off my work - it was, from what I've found, an isolated case. Back then I worked in a store and was given managerial responsibilities because the real manager (here's the catch: the owner's child) didn't feel like doing them. Needless to say I didn't stay long, but I bring it up to point out it does happen.

Since then I've worked in a library, a couple forms of retail and nowadays I spend time doing skills-type work with people who have various disabilities. Occasionally I'll feel like I'm getting the worse end of the deal with what I have to put up with, but then I put things into perspective. While I'm handling old people in hysteria my boss might seem to be chillin' in his fancy little office, but when I actually consider the volume of work and dedication it takes to keep group homes and day programs together and functioning, it kind of comes back to me.

It can happen, but I think in general, the "managers" and "CEOs" and "foremen" (well, I guess I wouldn't really know about those) really do have some sort of qualification that sets them apart from us.

And I like the "salary" point before. Almost all of my bosses have been salary, and it really is just a nickname for slave. Sure, if they were only working 35-40 hours a week like we were, it'd be quite the pay increase - but they're also the ones handling emergencies in the middle of the night, coming in when people call out and can't be replaced, working 50+ hours a week without that sexy little thing called overtime...

SwinS
Factory work is only better than retail because they pay you an extra few bucks an hour as compensation if you lose a finger or three in the machinery.

Actually, better money aside, I prefer factory work because I don't have to deal with the public. I worked retail for 4 years, and I don't plan on going back to that. If I'm on the factory floor, I'm all to my lonesome, and that really helps when you've got a comic. Plenty of time to think up material.

TnTComic

SwinS
Factory work is only better than retail because they pay you an extra few bucks an hour as compensation if you lose a finger or three in the machinery.

Actually, better money aside, I prefer factory work because I don't have to deal with the public. I worked retail for 4 years, and I don't plan on going back to that. If I'm on the factory floor, I'm all to my lonesome, and that really helps when you've got a comic. Plenty of time to think up material.

I was mostly kiddin'.

And actually, to be honest, I've thunk up my best comic-y ideas while working with people. But I suppose most of my inspiration comes in sudden bursts, triggered by things around me, rather than the result of deep thought. Seeing all sorts of different people helps me shape my own characters better.

Work, uggggh! What's it good for but making you old and cranky?

Actually the busiest people I know of are in retirement. This is because they deliberately fill their every waking moment doing the things that they always wanted to do during their 'productive years', but couldn't.

Over the years I've noticed that the only special traits middle and upper level management possess as a rule of thumb is a certain willingness to work very long hours for extraordinarily outrageous compensation in comparison to the workers and to lower level management. Middle and Upper level management generally come from privileged backgrounds, and have a certain degree of pitiless-aggression about them that will let them cheerfully find grounds to fire a moderately good worker to replace said drone with the grown child of a friend. That aside, most middle and upper level management types seem to be about as intelligent and genuinely qualified for their position as - er - George W. Bush; and feel free to take that comparison as you like.

I will note that my wife works at a prestigious school as a literature teacher and the school's dean was until recently an art teacher who actually could not do or teach art. She got the position for two reasons - well, three reasons actually; she came from an upper class background, married into the upper class, and had ample time to take the requisite administration courses while 'teaching'. I will note, however, that after this art teacher -- who neither knew art nor could teach it -- got Peter principled to several levels above her minimum competency the school did see fit to hire a genuinely qualified art teacher as a replacement.

Oh, and the new dean's management skills? let's just say that she made a better art teacher than dean. I present this damning bit of information for several reasons. First I want to assure you that this is pretty much a matter of routine in any reasonably prestigious institution of education that I have had dealing with over the decades. No, the best qualified and the hardest and most dedicated workers DO NOT usually work their way up the ladder - at least NOT in private education institutions nor in business; or at least not in big business. In the United States and in these areas it simply matters a great deal more the nature of your original social-economic background and who you know and how well you blow than your real qualifications for the position.

Of course, the above pertains to life in these United States and may be entirely different in other 'civilized' nations; and donkeys may sprout wings tomorrow and fly, too.

I've worked retail and heavy industry and in the blue collar profession arena, I've worked military and in the security field and now I feel as if I've been doing various aspects of education related work forever. For some odd reason, quasi and full-fledge movers and shakers always seem to trust and like me and make it possible for me to see how they actually live, work play and make important decisions. I figure that I am paying the spiritual vig for some heinous past life or the other in having to deal in this life on a fairly close basis with the master class.

For many years now I have been self-employed, and even that sucks big gallons of dirty dishwater to one degree or another.

I'll admit that being self-employed is the best situation short of having been born to obscene amounts of wealth,though; even though you do so sans any medical or financial benefits and as likely as not will die destitute and abandoned like a dog in a ditch one day. But what's not to love about the relative freedom to almost do whatever you want to do whenever you want to do it even if you really can't afford to do any of it? Woooohoooo!

Work! What's it good for? Well, sometimes you take the time to realize that at least you are not born to the parasite class and doing nothing but spending like a drunken sailor while watching your dirt poor illegal immigrant maid raise your children while cleaning your house or her husband killing himself mowing your lawn in the August heat. So at least you have your self respect.

Addendum; I've looked over this diatribe riff and wondered if I instilled the proper mix of venom and dark humor to carry off the impression that I am only a borderline lunatic rather than a card carrying member of said classification. It's a near thing I feel, but the words and the sentiment felt right as thoughts were tumbling from my mind to the keyboard keys, and that's good enough for me. How much of the above rant do I actually believe? Most of it, alas. They key to life, however, is if you do believe such things as I wrote to be true don't drive yourself crazy agonizing about what you can't fix anyway.

They key to life is simply to live every day as if that were going to be your last day on earth and to wring every moment of passion and pleasure and accomplishment from it that you can. Work can be a blast with the right attitude. I've never had the right attitude, obviously, but plenty of people do, and I can only envy them their peace of mind.

CharleyHorse
Oh, and the new dean's management skills? let's just say that she made a better art teacher than dean. I present this damning bit of information for several reasons. First I want to assure you that this is pretty much a matter of routine in any reasonably prestigious institution of education that I have had dealing with over the decades. No, the best qualified and the hardest and most dedicated workers DO NOT usually work their way up the ladder - at least NOT in private education institutions nor in business; or at least not in big business. In the United States and in these areas it simply matters a great deal more the nature of your original social-economic background and who you know and how well you blow than your real qualifications for the position.

Of course, the above pertains to life in these United States and may be entirely different in other 'civilized' nations; and donkeys may sprout wings tomorrow and fly, too.

As the saying goes, an ambitious individual in a bureaucracy will always rise to their lowest level of incompetency. ;)

They key to life is simply to live every day as if that were going to be your last day on earth and to wring every moment of passion and pleasure and accomplishment from it that you can. Work can be a blast with the right attitude. I've never had the right attitude, obviously, but plenty of people do, and I can only envy them their peace of mind.

I get that way sometimes too. Then that Lynard Skynard song seems to come on the radio and I remember the proper way to prioritize.

CharleyHorse
They key to life is simply to live every day as if that were going to be your last day on earth and to wring every moment of passion and pleasure and accomplishment from it that you can.

That's a cute slogan and all, but its not very practical. To a guy like me, living every day like its my last would involve a shitload of burning bridges.

Salary is just another word for slave.

Not all the time though.

In my job, since I can finish my work fast I have an extra hour or 2 for break (over and above the 45 minute supposed lunch break).

And its night shift. All the assholes are in the morning. I like the people and the benefits. Not the job itself. lol

TnTComic, I actually look at it as a prime goal rather than something easily done or even all that practical, treating each day as if it were your last, that is. I believe that I mentioned before that I'm sort of a Taoist. We try to keep in mind the ultimate goal so that we are usually stepping in the right direction and so that we can constantly remind ourselves that life is to be appreciated even when you can't think of a single reason so to do.

It's a weird zen related sort of thing. What's the sound of one hand clapping? Wiff!

So you pick and choose. Of the 'this is the last day of my life' philosophy, you remind yourself to find a reason to savor being alive. You do not whip out your wing-ding and piss on your boss to show how you really feel. You perhaps think it in the privacy of your mind and walk around with a weird smile on your face. See? It's a strange philosophy perhaps, but it works for me . . . well, kind of sorta anyway . . .

bobhhh
I've done it since I was 10 and worked for my father on weekends, he insisted I learn the value of work. No allowance for me, I had to earn my $$ shoveling ditches and carrying lumber.

I worked cattle and hogs, fed chickens and gathered eggs, plowed fields, harvested crops and in general busted my butt since I was old enough. So what. Some have families who have businesses where the kids can work, others don't. The govt frowns on child labor after all.

bobhhh
It sucked. I don't think I really learned anything by doing it.

I liked it mostly. As Jayne says, "I like smacken' 'em.". It makes eating them all the more satisfying.

bobhhh
Ditch diggers make less than the guys who basically just watch them work and bitch about it. Foremen they're called. I have always thought the guys who are sweating deserve more money than the guys who do the bitching.

Which proves that you didn't learn anything from your experiences working... Managing people is harder work than working. You need to make sure they are doing the job they are supposed to do, that they are not sluffing off, that they are not doing it wrong... Plenty of things that can go wrong and if the job doesn't get done right it's the supervisors fault. I've been worker, manager and owner over my life. I'm going back to being a worker in a year because management is damned difficult. I'll take the less money happily in exchange for more time and less responsibility.

bobhhh
But reality is quite different, isn't it. The fact is many people today scorn labor. Mr Mxy thinks it's monkey work.

I think assembly line work is monkey work. I think some moron who spends his life on the assembly line is no better than some guy who flips burgers at Mcdonalds for his whole life. Assembly line work is an entry level job for teens and college kids who need beer money.

Someone who improves themselves through education or training and gets off the line and into skilled labor positions is doing what they should do. I have no problem with blue collar workers in skilled labor positions. Plumbers, electricians, carpenters, bricklayers and so on are not able to be replaced with a monkey who can beat off while riding a unicycle.

bobhhh
I have always felt that jobs that suck deserve better pay than jobs that are easy. But in my opinion low pay is yet another way we keep workers in their place.

Yes, the communist theory of labor. Very quaint.

bobhhh
Without labor industry stops.

Without management investment doesn't flow in to build the factories. Without management contracts don't get signed, raw materials don't get bought and products have no place to go. In short, without management labor has no place to work.

CharleyHorse
For many years now I have been self-employed, and even that sucks big gallons of dirty dishwater to one degree or another.

AMEN BROTHER! Testify to the congregation! Give me a nine to five with a good paycheck any day over seventy hour weeks and trying to keep the employees from stealing me blind.

Mister Mxyzptlk, when I stop to put it to the calculator I figure I do put in between a sixty to eighty hour week for about 52 weeks per year. The only reason I can peck away on a forum as much as I do or create and maintain a comic is because a great deal of that work is done before my computer station anyway. Just to stay sane I periodically take creativity breaks throughout the day and evening hours.

What I resent, though, is waking up at 6:00am and then getting to bed, on average, at 11:00pm . What I like, though, is the real freedom of being my own boss. It's the freedom to starve, but it's still freedom and therefore sweet tasting.

There are definitely times though when I miss the financial and benefits security of working for someone else, even though there are all the attendant hassles that come with that sort of life.

Mister Mxyzptlk
AMEN BROTHER! Testify to the congregation! Give me a nine to five with a good paycheck any day

Sounds like an assembly line worker's train of thought. Punch in, punch out, go hit the 2 iron.

CharleyHorse
There are definitely times though when I miss the financial and benefits security of working for someone else, even though there are all the attendant hassles that come with that sort of life.

Life is all about trade offs. But then I'm in a highly skilled profession that makes me a valuable commodity to employers. It gives the employees more power in the relationship, it will be nice to be on the other side of that for a while.

TnTComic
Sounds like an assembly line worker's train of thought.

I doubt the schlep on the assembly line actually thinks all that much. If they did think about what they were doing I suspect suicide rates would be much higher...

Mister Mxyzptlk
I doubt the schlep on the assembly line actually thinks all that much.

I'd like you to meet a few.

People who are winning in a system are always ones to say the system provides some sort of judgment or justice.

Even doctors have become a commodity, and they used to be the biggest supporters of free market capitalism. Even they realize there's too much of a good thing.

This might be slightly off-topic but...

If the world made any sort of sense, one of the highest paid professions should belong to those who work in fields deemed as essential services.

There's a very easy informal way to determine if a job provides an essential service. All you have to do is ask yourself the following questions:
1. If the people who work in that particular field decided to strike for three weeks, would an immediate negative effect be felt that could potentially turn into permanent harm?
2. Are there specific rules/laws that currently forbid these people from striking?
3. Are these professionals difficult to replace?

If the answer is yes for all three of those questions, then most likely (although not 100% for sure) that profession provides an essential service. Doctors, police officers, and firefighters would fall under those categories. If you want the best and the most dedicated to be your doctors, police officers, and firefighters, then the pay should reflect the quality that's being looked for.

Black_Kitty
This might be slightly off-topic but...

If the world made any sort of sense, one of the highest paid professions should belong to those who work in fields deemed as essential services.

There's a very easy informal way to determine if a job provides an essential service. All you have to do is ask yourself the following questions:
1. If the people who work in that particular field decided to strike for three weeks, would an immediate negative effect be felt that could potentially turn into permanent harm?
2. Are there specific rules/laws that currently forbid these people from striking?
3. Are these professionals difficult to replace?

If the answer is yes for all three of those questions, then most likely (although not 100% for sure) that profession provides an essential service. Doctors, police officers, and firefighters would fall under those categories. If you want the best and the most dedicated to be your doctors, police officers, and firefighters, then the pay should reflect the quality that's being looked for.

I don't think its off topic, I think its overly simplistic. If the world made any sense, we'd probably have a different system of economics altogether -- or perhaps, if we understood market forces for what they are -- the world would look exactly like this one.

One would think that aircraft controllers would fall under this area. They did strike, and that strike was broken.

Difficult to replace is a tricky question, as some professions are so far form the product of their labors that you can replace quality people with crap, and the odd person who gets killed from unskilled work can be easily paid for.

So...its a mess.

The thing is that capitalism is not a bad economic system. The problem arises in that neither the democrat nor republican leadership possesses - in general - the requisite education, the self-less dedication to the long term health of the nation, nor the base intelligence to understand that capitalism becomes a deadly, malignant cancer if too many controls of the wrong sort are removed or simply begins to die a slow and lingering death if too many controls of the wrong sort are put in place.

Vague enough for everyone?

Beware economists working from an ideological basis. The right wing equivalent of Karl Marx is the recently deceased economist giant Milton Friedman. The logical extension of Karl Marx's theories was communism and the logical extension of Milton Friedman's theories we are seeing today under the current administration as they lead us into the shallow end of neo-fascism or the rule of the wealthy for the wealthy.

NOTE: fascism is probably NOT the proper term to describe the economic turning of a nation's interests over to big business interests and the corrupt politicians who support the same, but a more correct, more accurate term escapes me at the moment.

The point I am struggling to make is that when democrats are in control of the economy they tend to go Ralph Nader style insane with so many well-intentioned rules and regulations slapped on business that the economy begins gradually grinding to a halt and inflation goes through the roof.

Ironically when the ultra pro big business interests republicans assume the reigns of power as many of the actually intelligent restrictions on mostly just big business are removed instantly making victims of average citizens and workers, instantly making vast numbers of billion-heirs out of million-heirs and gradually -- ironic, isn't it? - sending inflation rates through the roof as average people can no longer afford to live much above the poverty line.

There is a delicate touch, a delicate balance between interference and hands off that neither party gets right; and until this actually happens, vast economic disparities and flat out economic outrages are going to be the norm both in economics in general and in the work place specifically.

mapaghimagsik
Even doctors have become a commodity, and they used to be the biggest supporters of free market capitalism. Even they realize there's too much of a good thing.

I'm sure they still are big supporters of free market capitalism. Too bad for them the insurance companies have the politicians in their pockets.

I'm sure some are. There's not exactly a unified front.


So is manipulating laws in your favor a 'market force' ala capitalism?

I've never liked work. Never.
...Well, that's not quite true, teaching was the best job I ever did. I should look into getting more of that one day...

I've never done blue collar work, never wanted to, never needed to, but the truth is that a lot of "white collar" work is really just another form of blue collar... Whenever I do graphic design jobs that's how I feel about it. It doesn't require much thought, you just slog through it, get it done and move on to the next one. It's monkey-work, but that doesn't make you a monkey.

That doesn't matter though. I work only as much as I need to, which isn't much. That's the ideal life for me. Work funds my lifestyle but it never becomes my lifestyle.

Mister Mxyzptlk
replaced with a monkey who can beat off while riding a unicycle.

You say this a lot because you like to hear yourself talk. It's not as funny as you think, and for the record it's not true. Any of these jobs you claim are monkey work actually need a human doing them or companies would be loading up on bananas as we speak.

So please spare us the crude attempt at clever insults and shut the fuck up.