Someone
don't say Great Britain because of Margaret Thatcher. Women were never chattel there

Yes they were, womens rights was a big thing in days gone by. The fact is times change. I am not going to say whether you were right or wrong on your opinion of your government but I do agree with ozone that it is a daft thing to say in such a factual manner. Had you said you believe it is the best as opposed to it IS the best you may have had a different reaction.

Someone
this is actually an awful analogy. military secrets are almost always strictly of the "ways to kill us they don't need to know about" kind at all but the highest levels, and these are political secrets, which run an enormous gambit of reason for existing. no soldier could ever use their knowledge of how, say, a machinegun works to pressure his fellows to let him rape a group of kids but politicians have been doing just that for pretty much all of human history. trying to tie one with the other doesn't stick, because they're really apples and bananas.

Someone

Orin J Master

Blackhoodcomics
No ozoneocean, it is not silly, and your opinion on the matter doesn't change the facts.

okay, please don't get into that argument. it's an opinion against an opinion, so it has no resolution try and stay on topic instead of lunging at strawmen with friggin' bombs hidden in them.

...why you ignore my argument? i thought i have good points, do i need to burn flags to get your attention?

LOL!!! Sorry about that, and you are right, it is an opinion vs and opinion, so ozone is making a valid point.

As to your point about my statement not applying to the wikileak situation, I could not disagree more. The point I was making is that information is power, whether it is a soldier on the battlefield not revealing locations and counterattack methods ( and it was an intelligence soldier that stole the embassy communications ), or someone revealing information recklessly.

GENEJOKE:
Concerning women and them being chattel; I do not take lightly the suffering of anyone, and I recognized the past and present injustices that women face all over the world, but I know history fairly well, but I have never read of women being stacked and packed like sardins in a can or coach roaches in a coke bottle and brought to a country. I have not read about them not being allowed to speak their own language, practice their own religion, or protect their own families in England.

Did they sell women like livestock in England? Were they lynched as sport there? In the United States white women had the right to vote before black people did ( we lost the right to vote right after Reconstruction due to white terrorisim ) White women could ride on the front of the bus. Just a few years ago black soldiers who fought in a segregated military would return home and be lynched in their uniforms. I dare say that women in Britian didn't have it that bad, so for America to elect a black president just a half century later says alot.

Blackhoodcomics
A black person was elected head of this country, when just fifty years ago we didn't have the right to vote. Name another country with a discriminated minority who is head of state.

South Africa and Nelson Mandela?

I agree that the USA is a great country with its own trials and tribulations. Using the word "best" though? Its subjective to your own values and what rating system you're using to grade it. I personally believe I have the best country with the worst leaders. ;)

Now back to thread.
Anybody notice Assange got out on bail with house arrest? Sucks for him, though it definitely works in his favor that his charges appear politically motivated.

Someone
South Africa and Nelson Mandela?

I agree that the USA is a great country with its own trials and tribulations. Using the word "best" though? Its subjective to your own values and what rating system you're using to grade it. I personally believe I have the best country with the worst leaders. ;)

Blacks in South Africa are the majority and they were ruled by a white minority. I said a discriminated minority that was made head of a country.

I concede that "best" is subjective.

+1 that the USA is a great country with terrible leaders and political system.

The USA's greatness is basically a vestige still riding on the high post-WW2 wave. However, its superpower status is waning in recent years, due to the flawed and atherosclerotic system of government and politics. Special interests rule politicians and the wealth gap is widening, while the general public is more misinformed and ignorant than ever.

To Obama's credit... I personally think he's one of the few politicians who actually want to serve the people, rather than the vested lobbyists in Washington. All his actions and words say that to me. Unfortunately, people expect him to wave a magic wand that makes everything right within 2 years.

bravo1102
Once upon a time diplomatic communications were made by sealed pouch and couriers. It was said that gentlemen who not read another gentleman's mail, yet that is precisely what was done all the time.
One side would do what they could to obtain the parcel open it, copy everything then reseal it and use that information for their own purposes.



So it can be argued that these leaks are new only to those who haven't been paying attention.

This is what I'm talking about!

Exactly!

Popular mass media is making Assange out to be a master villain and the leaked info to all be new and scary... Which utterly baffles those of us who have actually been closely following news from the Middle East as well as international politics in general. The cold hard fact is that most of this info is gossip about things that are all on record and known. What's new isn't the information, but the gossip perspective.

Think of it like you can look at the inquest into Princess Diana's death, with all the results on record and out there if you know where to look. The "leaks" in this analogy would be the sort of things that Charles and Queen Elizabeth, government ministers, Palace staff etc privately commented to each other about it. And the info that the public would be most aware of would be the few saucy titbits the press saw fit to repeat on endless cycles at the time. Access to the private gossip wouldn't tell you anything new, it would just give you yet another perspective on the publicly available info that you had never really bothered to look at the first time, and THAT fact would mean the press could repackage it as a new story and endlessly repeat it again.



Seems to me that the real story isn't about what Assange has done, it's about how ill-informed the general public tends to be and how the news services endlessly commodify information for entertainment.
...The one positive thing is that with Wikileaks he's giving people the chance to educate themselves WITHOUT the distorting mediation of the news services. It's hilarious how few people even consider that an option.

/derail

Blackhoodcomics
Blacks in South Africa are the majority and they were ruled by a white minority. I said a discriminated minority that was made head of a country.

I concede that "best" is subjective.

Oh I see, I just thought it was a question of overcoming inequality in politics. It's still impressive either way, regardless of the majority/minority role positions. The USA isn't the only place that has happened, though it is a big accomplishment in our national history.

Even so this isn't the thread for that discussion.
/derail end

Someone
The USA's greatness is basically a vestige still riding on the high post-WW2 wave. However, its superpower status is waning in recent years, due to the flawed and atherosclerotic system of government and politics. Special interests rule politicians and the wealth gap is widening, while the general public is more misinformed and ignorant than ever.

To Obama's credit... I personally think he's one of the few politicians who actually want to serve the people, rather than the vested lobbyists in Washington. All his actions and words say that to me. Unfortunately, people expect him to wave a magic wand that makes everything right within 2 years.

+1 for using a medical term to describe political entropy.

Though from my view Obama has done little to change course from Bush, in continuing and copying his policies and decisions.

Someone
Popular mass media is making Assange out to be a master villain and the leaked info to all be new and scary... Which utterly baffles those of us who have actually been closely following news from the Middle East as well as international politics in general. The cold hard fact is that most of this info is gossip about things that are all on record and known. What's new isn't the information, but the gossip perspective.

Yeah plenty of sensationalism, and boy the politicians are encouraging it. Many of the cables ARE embarrassing, if only because they were too candid. The leaders hate a looking glass in on the games they play backstage. They'll do whatever they can to eliminate this before it can tarnish their images and re-election chances.