Someone
Hence the gay bashing and white supremists, not the mention the still pretty prevalent hating of the Jews and Muslims.

First off, white supremists are one of those groups of Christian Loons that eveyone seems to look at as the majority. I know a lot of Christian friends, and not a single one of them is a white supremists. Gay bashing is pretty much the same way. As for hating Jews, that's just bull. I can think of several local churches that are a mix fellowship of Jews and Christians. Muslims do have some hate, but I think this is more hate towards the terrorists that is a general conservative thought.

I wasn't trying to suggest they represent all Christians, but these particular trains of thought do seem more prevalent in Christian communities. Kyupol seems to be under the impression that "love thy neighbor" is the fundamental basis for how all Christians think and act, but that simply isn't true. And while I know some very nice Christians myself, public opinion seems to suggest that a majority of Christians do have at least one of those four prejudices, even if they don't express it outwardly and I have personally met quite a few people from all four groups, and not all in the South, much to my displeasure.

isukun
I wasn't trying to suggest they represent all Christians, but these particular trains of thought do seem more prevalent in Christian communities...And while I know some very nice Christians myself, public opinion seems to suggest that a majority of Christians do have at least one of those four prejudices, even if they don't express it outwardly and I have personally met quite a few people from all four groups, and not all in the South, much to my displeasure.

Woooowwww. I don't know where you're hanging out, but I live where the majority religion is Christianity, and I've yet to see these people act the way you assume we do.

Kyupol seems to be under the impression that "love thy neighbor" is the fundamental basis for how all Christians think and act, but that simply isn't true.

Hahaha. Wow, again, you're a piece of work Isukun. I guess in all of my years of being in Christianity, I've been wrong! Apparently, we're a bunch extremist crazies who are hateful, intolerant creatures. Oh, man have I been taught completely wrong in church. You should pop on over, buddy and teach us how to properly act because, obviously, my teachers have no idea what they're telling me.

Woooowwww. I don't know where you're hanging out, but I live where the majority religion is Christianity, and I've yet to see these people act the way you assume we do.

The majority of Americans are Christian. There aren't a lot of towns in this country where that isn't the case. I haven't had any problems finding people who think this way, though. I've found them in DC, I've found them in Georgia, both in Atlanta and Savannah, I've seen them in Williamsburg and Norfolk. I've seem them in Boston. I've seen a lot of them in Michigan. I've run into a few in West Virginia and North Carolina. I even see a few out here in LA. They aren't in any way a rarity. And if you'd actually read what I wrote, you would also see that I stated many may not show their prejudices outwardly, but public opinion reflects that these prejudices are fairly prominant in our country. So just becaue these prejudices exist, it doesn't mean people are marching down the street protesting racial diversity or gay marriage.

Hahaha. Wow, again, you're a piece of work Isukun.

And again, I will say READ WHAT I WRITE! For some reason you're not responding the the text in the quote box, but something completely different. I didn't say the fundamental basis for how all Christians SHOULD think and act. If I had, you might have had a point.

isukun
The majority of Americans are Christian.

And here's the problem with saying "Christians are more likely to be these things". Of course the majority of a group is probably going to be Christian, because the majority of people in general are Christian! It's not like there aren't gay bashing or racist atheist. The only way you can fairly state Christians are more likely to do something is if you know what percentage of Christians do it AND what percentage of other people do it.

I'm going to go the unsensitive route here.
Religion is just total bullcrap.
The Bible is a work of fiction. A collection from an assortment of religions to centralize power. It is infested in contradiction, so to be RELIGIOUS and follow the "good" book one must be a walking talking contradiction.
The 10 Commandments should be followed according to the Bible. Yeah...you go read those commandments and follow them...see where you wind up.
Federal Pen, my friend.
We're talking killing your kids and wives here son.

The Bible supports slavery. You want slaves? You think people should be your property? Go ahead...be a Christian. Oh...but make sure your a man, because woman are the property of men. Tough luck women's lib.

The Quran is no better. Total crap.

Of course, you could..."pick and choose" what you want from the Bible. But God doesn't allow you such convienice. You follow HIS law.

I could spend hours...days...pages and pages to support and define in every detail what 60% of you know is true, the rest of you will fight it with your "faith" argument which only slows down the death of religion a little bit longer.
Yes, religion is dying and that's fantastic. It won't die in our life but it's going that way as science catches up. Today we have more scientists and educated people on the planet Earth then ever before..and that'll only continue to extinguish the fires of religion and it's shady existence on our planet.

So yeah. Maybe not bash religion...but don't be afraid to laugh your ass of when someone treats this fairy tale like it's the end all word to everything. The only thing that's for sure is that we don't know anything.
But logic and reasoning can sure take you far...

Of course the majority of a group is probably going to be Christian, because the majority of people in general are Christian! It's not like there aren't gay bashing or racist atheist.

There have been many studies, both scientific and anthropological which do show that religion is often the vehicle for promoting these ideas. In the US, the fundamentalist conservative doctrines tend to reinforce bigotry and with those ideals spreading, it has caused an upsurge in intolerance in the white Christian majority. This whole thing started as a political move made by Southern churches, but remains prevalent in modern society. Many Southern churches still don't approve of mixed race relationships and no Christian sect approves of homosexual relationships, with or without marriage.

As for stats, the most recent polls show about 46% of Americans are opposed to same sex marriage. Attached to that poll was the following quotation: "Opposition correlated with level of religious attendance, older age, Republican Party affiliation and residing in the South." They did give a number of about 70% opposition with more devout Christians. The majority of reasons given for denying gays the right to marriage stem from Christian ideals, so it isn't surprising that Christians are more likely to be against equal rights for gays.

Unfortunately, it is harder to find statistics based on racism as many people do not poll honestly on the subject. Still, estimates are that 55% of White America harbors racist sentiments and the group most represented in that number are Christian fundamentalists. Since that group doesn't represent a majority in the country, I'm sure you can do the math.

isukun
As for stats, the most recent polls show about 46% of Americans are opposed to same sex marriage. Attached to that poll was the following quotation: "Opposition correlated with level of religious attendance, older age, Republican Party affiliation and residing in the South." They did give a number of about 70% opposition with more devout Christians. The majority of reasons given for denying gays the right to marriage stem from Christian ideals, so it isn't surprising that Christians are more likely to be against equal rights for gays.

Yes, Christians are against gay marriage. I won't even try to say they don't. But, this is because according to the religion homosexuality is a sin. However, I wouldn't really say this is hatred towards gays. Majority of Christians don't hate gays, they're just against them being married.

isukun
Unfortunately, it is harder to find statistics based on racism as many people do not poll honestly on the subject. Still, estimates are that 55% of White America harbors racist sentiments and the group most represented in that number are Christian fundamentalists. Since that group doesn't represent a majority in the country, I'm sure you can do the math.

I'm going to have to say, I think this is utter bull. Many of my friends are Christian, and not many of them are white. As well, no one I know is a racist.

yaktheripper
The 10 Commandments should be followed according to the Bible. Yeah...you go read those commandments and follow them...see where you wind up.
Federal Pen, my friend.
We're talking killing your kids and wives here son.

...Huh? Have you read the ten commandments?

Someone
1 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.
3 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
4 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
5 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
6 “You shall not murder.
7 “You shall not commit adultery.
8 “You shall not steal.
9 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10 “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.”

Yeah, I totally get "Kill your wif and son" from that.

yaktheripper
The Bible supports slavery. You want slaves? You think people should be your property? Go ahead...be a Christian. Oh...but make sure your a man, because woman are the property of men. Tough luck women's lib.

Not really. In fact, have you ever heard the story of Moses? Where he freed the Jewish slaves from the Egyptians because of their cruelty? Yeah, that's pro-slavery.

yaktheripper
So yeah. Maybe not bash religion...but don't be afraid to laugh your ass of when someone treats this fairy tale like it's the end all word to everything. The only thing that's for sure is that we don't know anything.
But logic and reasoning can sure take you far...

And this is exactly my point in this thread. Jerks think that just because someone disagrees with them on something that actually hasn't been proven, they have the right to act superior.

isukun
no Christian sect approves of homosexual relationships, with or without marriage.

This is actually false. The Lutheran Church in Sweden blesses Same Sex marriages.

The Lutheran church in other European countries have been known to be rather open minded towards Same Sex marriages as of late. The Lutheran church in Iceland (which also happens to be the state church) still doesn't recognize this form of union. Instead the government offers them civil union but peer pressure has been mounting against the church to change their opinion on the matter.

As for the bible being contradictory, that claim is true. If you read the thing carefully enough there's loads of things where one chapter says this thing while the other says the next. Killing is a sin yet there are examples where stoning someone to death is perfectly acceptable. Slavery was an acceptable practice. In fact the word "servant" in the commandments means slave. There's even mentioning that it's prohibited to eat dairy and meat in the same meal (take that cheeseburger lovers).

Whether or not homosexuality is a sin or not is actually open for interpretation. Most of the quotes that are mentioned when homosexuality is chastised mention stuff like "a man lying with a man is an abomination". If we take into consideration that the bible has been translated, reinterpreted and re-translated some more, it's possible to assume that some meanings may have changed as time went by.

Many argue that the true story of Sodom was not about a town wicket with sexual decadent and perversion but in fact a story about an unfriendly town that didn't accept newcomers.

Some argue that the original mentioning of Jesus walking on the lake was originally, Jesus walked by the lake.

The bible will be a source of argument, every time it is used as a source. Many religious groups choose to interpret it differently. Some wish to look upon the stories and look for the meaning behind them. Others wish to consider the words written there as holy truth that should never be questioned. Adam and Eve really existed, there truly was a flood, Egypt was visited by deadly plagues and so on.

So what can I say? Judge not, lest thee be judged? There are Christian morons who hold on to overly conservative values. These type piss me off. Yet I know that people exist within my circles that would love to talk down anyone who dares to say that he believes in God. Bigoted assholes exist everywhere. It's just another fact of life.

therealtj
Majority of Christians don't hate gays, they're just against them being married.

they're just against them having equal rights? Sounds pretty hateful to me.

therealtj
And this is exactly my point in this thread. Jerks think that just because someone disagrees with them on something that actually hasn't been proven, they have the right to act superior.

Yeah, this guy is being an arse, but I only see this on the internet. Not in the media or anything mainstream. I only see people pickin' on the Christians online. And even then I don't see it that much.

But, this is because according to the religion homosexuality is a sin. However, I wouldn't really say this is hatred towards gays. Majority of Christians don't hate gays, they're just against them being married.

It is simply using the Bible as an excuse. Many Christians are against gay marriage because they think it will shield them and their children from the "gay threat". It's the same kind of bigotry that was common with interracial marriage. That was supposedly a sin, too.

I'm going to have to say, I think this is utter bull. Many of my friends are Christian, and not many of them are white. As well, no one I know is a racist.

That's nice. Personal experience within a small community doesn't necessarily reflect the majority of this country. I think I'll trust polls and the experts on anthropology, history, and the social sciences over you and your friends.

Not really. In fact, have you ever heard the story of Moses? Where he freed the Jewish slaves from the Egyptians because of their cruelty? Yeah, that's pro-slavery.

Riiiiight.

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46)

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2)

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48)

Those aren't even all from the old testament. Hell, that last one is Jesus telling people it's alright to beat your slaves even if you aren't sure they did anything wrong. Sure the Bible doesn't approve of slavery. I also like the passage where you can make a Hebrew slave a permanent slave by holding his wife and family hostage.

isukun

But, this is because according to the religion homosexuality is a sin. However, I wouldn't really say this is hatred towards gays. Majority of Christians don't hate gays, they're just against them being married.

It is simply using the Bible as an excuse. Many Christians are against gay marriage because they think it will shield them and their children from the "gay threat". It's the same kind of bigotry that was common with interracial marriage. That was supposedly a sin, too.

The difference between interracial and same sex is the fact that the bible actually says that homosexuality is a sin.

isukun

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2)

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48)

Those aren't even all from the old testament. Hell, that last one is Jesus telling people it's alright to beat your slaves even if you aren't sure they did anything wrong. Sure the Bible doesn't approve of slavery. I also like the passage where you can make a Hebrew slave a permanent slave by holding his wife and family hostage.

Well, I suppose yes those old testament examples are pretty clear. However, the new testemant examples are different. The first two don't say slavery is good, it just says that if you're a Christian slave, you should be respectfull of your master. This doesn't say that the slave owner is doing a good thing, just that a Christian slave should grin and bear it. The last one is taken out of context, horribly. If you read the actual passage, Jesus had just got done telling a parable, and one of his disciples asked a question. He answered in another parable, which was meant to compare us to slaves and God to a slave master. He wasn't saying "This is how things should be" he was saying "This is how things are."

The difference between interracial and same sex is the fact that the bible actually says that homosexuality is a sin.

Actually, some people consider that to be a matter of interpretation, as well. That's the problem when you rely on a book that has been retranslated and reinterpreted time and time again, especially when a lot of passages use archaic words that have no English equivalent or when versions like the King James mistranslate words to make it seem like a passage is referring to homosexuals when it really is talking about shrine prostitutes.

When you look at the original Hebrew and consider surrounding texts and customs, all of the passages conservative Christians use to defend hatred against homosexuals are more likely to apply to pagan rituals and not consensual sex between two faithful men or women. This is why Leviticus 20:13 treats the offense as a ritual transgression. It was a common pagan ritual at the time.

There are also a number of couples in the Bible thought to be same sex partners who are not condemned for having a physical relationship (nor does it even mention that they might be sinners).

As for the slavery issue, you're really grasping at straws, there. Slavery was a norm and was not frowned on by either early Jews or early Christians. BOTH the old and new testament support this. The point of the Exodus wasn't that slavery itself is bad, but that the Jews were God's chosen people and God did not want HIS people to be slaves of another nation. There are no passages in either the old or new testament that explicitly state slavery is bad.

Someone
As for the bible being contradictory, that claim is true. If you read the thing carefully enough there's loads of things where one chapter says this thing while the other says the next. Killing is a sin yet there are examples where stoning someone to death is perfectly acceptable. Slavery was an acceptable practice. In fact the word "servant" in the commandments means slave. There's even mentioning that it's prohibited to eat dairy and meat in the same meal (take that cheeseburger lovers).

I wouldn't say that the killing and stoning is a contradiction. Even today, we still keep capital punishment, and by many people it's not considered the same as murder.

As for the dairy/meat deal, there's a new testament story that basically said "Eat what you want."

Someone
they're just against them having equal rights? Sounds pretty hateful to me.

Again, many people believe the bible states homosexuality is a sin. If it is a sin, do you think God would be to pleased with the fact that Christians have been joining them in a holly union of the church?

I have to say, even if these translations are misinterpreted, it doesn't mean the only reason we stick to it is because we are subconciously hateful of them. It's because we've been taught this way all our life. Again, yes, there are extremists who do hate gays, but the majority tollerates them.

isukun
Maybe you're misunderstanding the whole "more likely" part of my statement. The reasoning behind the Christian support of the death penalty, despite the fact that almost no church is in agreement with the general American Christian public, is precisely because they think the Bible promotes it. "Eye for an eye" is the most common reasoning used to support the death penalty.

The bible promotes it? But the bible also promotes "love thy neighbor".

So I guess it all boils down to one's interpretation of it.

If someone tries to break in my house, I guarantee that he will be severely injured or killed.....

Yep, that's really valuing life.

So you would just lay there as someone enters your house and tries to kill you and your family? And then you'd probably call 911 and 10 minutes later (when the police arrive), you and your family are dead. :(

If that's the case I respect your opinion.

Sorry but I'm not a gelded sheep. I still have my male instincts to fight back.

Sorry, but this statement and everything after it is a load of horse shit. People do not have a deep rooted spiritual nature. It is something we pick up from our environment and learn throughout childhood. Morality is the same thing. You learn it and it isn't always tied to your spirituality. Christian morals are all over the map, even within particular sects. You would think if people had a predisposition to acting a certain way, then everyone would, but that isn't the case.

What about the Nazi soldier who refused to take part in killing Jewish women and children and instead requested his superiors to have him fight the Russians? I saw that in a history channel documentary.

What about the Israeli and Palestinian who would work together even if both of their people are fighting one another? I saw that on CNN.

The point is, these people have been indoctrinated throughout their youth to hate the other side. Why is it that they managed to break through their brainwashing? What is it in the human that manages to get them to cut through the matrix of their respective brainwashing?

Blame the environment? Blame the childhood?

My past experiences could have driven me to the dark side. You know, things like drug and alcohol abuse, suicide, shooting up a school... Yeah I guess I would be justified to do those things because of my past experiences that weren't really so nice.

I guess all the Naruto bad guys who had terrible childhoods are suppose to be the good guys then because afterall... its all the fault of their terrible childhoods.

But you know what. I chose to serve the light.

I hate repeating myself but here goes. We don't need spirituality to define us as humans. We already have so many advantages over other forms of life on this planet, that it is very clear that we do stand above the rest of nature. The belief that God chose us as superior beings is not necessary and is for the most part a destructive quality of religion. It is that train of thought which has led various religions to claim superiorty over non-believers. It is that train of thought that has led to the multitude of holy wars in this world and also contributes to the issues we have in the modern world. This vain belief that we are chosen by God to stand above the rest is what leads to the greatest amount of conflict in the world.

Religion is NOT EQUAL to spirituality.

Religion has a system of set rules and dogma and doctrine.

Religion though, serves as a crutch to spirituality because not all people have the same level of spiritual development.

That is why personally, I strip out all the dogma and go down to the basics which is meditation and reincarnation. I don't need a middle man to tell me if this is the right way to God or something. I just read the bible and other articles by various people and leave it up to my sense of discernment to decide which is false or true.

Like the bible says: "You shall know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:16)

Or perhaps divorce rates are so low in the Philipines because it's ILLEGAL there. Families stay together because the government FORCES them to. And here I thought you were all for more freedom. I'm sure if we took away things like alimony and tacked on a fine that only the rich could afford, the divorce rate would plummet here, too.

It is not illegal there but rather its much harder to do it there because of the attached stigma to doing it because of a 90% catholic country that frowns on divorce.

But lets say what you said is true that its ILLEGAL over there.

What about the families in Canada, USA, etc. I've worked with some Filipino community groups over here and have met quite a number of families. Why is it the same? Why are they more intact? Its very easy to divorce in the USA and Canada. But why is that?

I can imagine it, but I still see no benefit unless there is something to gain. Keeping the people dependent doesn't lead to any personal gain, just a lot of hassle. Why would I want to spend all this money just to watch people? That's stupid and, quite frankly, not possible. What you're basically saying is that there is this evil conspiracy backed by big business that wants to subjugate us all "just because". There is no financial gain to be had from it since they would have to pay for everything and they would lose the potential for an effective work force and buying class. Sorry, but the world doesn't work that way. Big business has more to gain from a strong economy.

They'd know everything about you. More than what you know about you. They'd know every move.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/mar/31/surveillance-transport-communication-box [guardian.co.uk]

You think government is stupid for putting that there? They're not stupid. Thats why they're in control.

And profit? What is money anyway?

Money is just energy. Its all an illusion. It doesn't even have real value as its not even tied to gold. Its just numbers on a screen.

Do you honestly think that the Illuminati WANT money? They have all the money in the world. They can print it out of thin air using the Federal Reserve.

No. They have their own religion which is EUGENICS. They honestly believe that majority of the world population needs to be eliminated.



And why does the UN want to control the population?

And why does Henry Kissinger call us "useless eaters"?

And why do the masons call us the "profane"?

THINK ABOUT THAT. Is greed and profit the main driver of those things?

Hence the gay bashing and white supremists, not the mention the still pretty prevalent hating of the Jews and Muslims.

Those are for political reasons.

But have you met Christians who believe that homosexuality is a sin and therefore preach that homosexuals deserve God's mercy because God is merciful to sinners and tie it up to forgiveness of sins?

White supremacy? Ok. I guess I'm a white supremacist then. I'm a brown man and I'm stupid and gelded enough to believe the superiority of the white man over me. lol!

Actually, he didn't. He died. He discouraged his own followers from standing up against a government that everyone thought was ruthless and corrupt. He was killed because the Romans and Pharisees saw his followers as a threat and mistook him for a revolutionary, which the Bible clearly shows he had no desire for political power or to lead an uprising against the Romans.

He was more of a peaceful resistance. Just like Gandhi. Just like Martin Luther King.

Peaceful resistance is actually more effective than violence.

After Jesus death, alot of people elevated him to godlike status (I personally believe Jesus is a higher spiritual being-- not sure if he's an extraterrestrial or interdimensional being-- who came to earth to help raise the vibration of humanity... but for arguments sake lets say he's just a man who had bright ideas and a talent for speaking)

Also read the work of Étienne de La Boétie. Back in the middle ages, he advocated peaceful resistance. He advocated simply not supporting the tyrant so the tyrant will be gone.

The people power revolution of 1986 actually took out the dictator Ferdinand Marcos.

If the mass of the people rise up and say NO to the system, the system will collapse and there will be a new era of freedom to all of humanity. No need for violence and blood in the streets. Besides, its too messy to clean up. :)

oh....therealtj...stop being such a "salad bar Christian", picking and choosing what you wish to get out of the Bible and come to terms with the reality of the scripture.
It's homophobic, inspires violence, slavery, mysogeny, and slavery. If you don't believe that breaking sections of the so called commandments could mean your husband or father has the right to kill you...then your not reading correctly. Your "picking and choosing" what you wish.
The New Testament didn't just spring up out of Jesus Christ's ass. The foundation is the Old Testament. So within that dark, dark book your savior found the inspiration to carry on this load of rubbage.
Speaking of Jesus...let's be real. Did the brother even exist? I mean really? There's no historical evidence for his existence and many beleive that he's more of a metaphor if anything. His birthday was even ripped off from another religion for Christ's sake! (and no I'm not against Christmas...or Easter).
Paul is the promoter of your religion. Bet you didn't know he has more lines of dialogue in the Bible then Jesus. Hmmm...
There's just far far to much reality weighing against religion in general, not just Christianinsanity, for this mode of supernatural, cave dwelling thinking to continue. Use CRITICAL THINKING. You were brainwashed as a child, or when you were vulnerable to beleive this mumbo jumbo.
Think...if you were born on an island out in the middle of nowhere and somehow survived to be a thinking adult, would you actually believe in God, Allah, or Yahweh, or whoever?
Nope.
Religion, as I stated, centralizes POWER. It gives the poor HOPE and RESTRAINT.
It's all people had before science. They can be forgiven. But today, in the face of facts? It's just silly. So call me a jerk but those who see the writing on the wall and look away are straight out dummys. So which would you rather be? Me? I'd rather be a jerk.

therealtj
I wouldn't say that the killing and stoning is a contradiction. Even today, we still keep capital punishment, and by many people it's not considered the same as murder.

Actually, there are fewer and fewer countries that allow capital punishments. One of the requirements a country needs to fulfill before it's allowed to join EU is to abolish the death penalty. US is often criticized for still allowing these types of punishments.

Nowadays, you often hear about executions in the middle east because someone violated some religious doctrines and then we have those "honor killings" among Muslims where relatives hunt down couples that have eloped or a helpless girl that has been raped thus "shaming" the family. Is that the image that organized religions really wants to portray?

Didn't Jesus say this?

But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.
Luke 6:27-31.

therealtj
As for the dairy/meat deal, there's a new testament story that basically said "Eat what you want."

Tell that to the Jewish communities that eat Kosher.

Again, this is an example where the Bible contradicts itself. There are passages that considers regular meat eating to be a glutenous practice, which falls under the seven sins. The exodus mentions that it is forbidden to mix meat and dairy. Shrimp eating is an abomination. Pork should be avoided at all cost.

I used to be far more negative towards organized religion and still am somewhat today. However I've noticed that Church thinking has improved allot over the years, matured even. I've been to sermons where I've heard the priest speak with such openmindness that I'd never expected to hear. There's nothing wrong with religion itself. The fault lies with the believers themselves. Those who wish to oppress others and morally justify their actions through a higher calling.

As I've said, time and again. Idiots exist. Bigots stand out. Christians are picked on because self titled geniuses like to pick on people for their superstitious mumbo jumbo. Devoted evangelists attacks morally bankrupted atheists for one can't be a good soul if he hasn't accepted the word of Jesus Christ.

yaktheripper
I'd rather be a jerk.

Case and point.

Thanks for your mumbo jumbo too, Product Placement.
As I stated, one can't have it both ways. On one point you embrace the "new direction" of the church, the other you condemn some of the followers and those of us that see this fairy tale for what it is.
I know, I know..you want to be the "enlightened one", the man who sees both sides and promotes tolerance of both.
Scrap it. It's not happening.
If Joe Blow came over to you and said "Man, I just saw a guy fly up into the sky and defecate a rainbow into a pool!". What would your reaction be? Honestly?
Now let's say you read this in a book...say the National Enquirer. What would your reaction be?
Now, let's say that that National Enquirer was over 2000 years old. Is that really any crazier then what we're debating?
THIS is foolishness! That's my point!
How can the Church decide to take it in a new direction??? On what authority do they have to take things in a new direction? There is only one word and that is the word of God.
Crap...it's not rocket science.

I have to say, even if these translations are misinterpreted, it doesn't mean the only reason we stick to it is because we are subconciously hateful of them.

I'm not saying that's the reason people stick to it. The reasoning behind it is more political. The problem is what it promotes in people. It paints gays as corrupters and bad people for being simply what they are. That is bigotry, no matter how you look at it and any Christian who supports limiting their freedoms for these reasons IS a bigot, period.

So I guess it all boils down to one's interpretation of it.

Which is one of the major problems with Christianity as most Christians interpret the Bible differently from how their particular church interprets the Bible. You every day John Q. Public isn't a Biblical scholar, but does consider themselves to be a Christian. They don't base their interpretation of their religion on things like "love thy neighbor", though, they base it on popular opinion and then try to find ways to fit the Bible to that.

So you would just lay there as someone enters your house and tries to kill you and your family?

No, but my first instinct isn't to put a bullet in his brain, either. Most breaking and entering cases don't result in death and more often than not, the burglers are going to try to hit your house when you're not there and won't be armed. And these kinds of people aren't completely stupid. If all they want is a score, then it's better to let go and run. If they stick around, you've seen them and it's a lot easier for the police to track them down. If they kill you, a more intensive investigation begins and the odds the police will be actively searching for them goes up considerably.

What about the Nazi soldier who refused to take part in killing Jewish women and children and instead requested his superiors to have him fight the Russians?

Most Nazi's were Christians and for many it was hard to simply accept what was going on, even if they agreed with the overall movement.

The point is, these people have been indoctrinated throughout their youth to hate the other side.

Not everybody in that region thinks that way or has that kind of thinking beaten into them throughout their childhood. Otherwise there wouldn't be anybody who supported peace between the two sides.

Yeah I guess I would be justified to do those things because of my past experiences that weren't really so nice.

And how did you get this out of what I said? At what point did I say upbringing was an acceptable excuse for this kind of behavior? I don't know how you even reached this point from what I said and randomly dropping into it doesn't make your argument stronger.

It is not illegal there but rather its much harder to do it there because of the attached stigma to doing it because of a 90% catholic country that frowns on divorce.

Divorce is most definitely illegal in the Philippines. You may get an annulment, but only under very specific circumstances. There are many people who object to these laws in the Philippines because of their negative effects on the family unit. People still separate, but with no standard for divorce, there is no financial obligation of either party. It is actually very common for a man to simply abandon his family, and in these cases, there is nothing the wife or family can do. Also, spousal abuse is not uncommon in the Philippines, and bigomy actually occurs pretty frequently when one party moves out of the country and remarries. None of these things are grounds for annulment. Another major issue with this system is that by annulling the marriage rather than having divorce procedures, you basically pretend the marriage never happened. This means no financial protection for women who are left with the responsibility of raising their children on their own and the division of estates can be very sticky.

Why is it the same? Why are they more intact? Its very easy to divorce in the USA and Canada. But why is that?

It has very little to do with their faith. In the US, divorce rates among Filipinos is comparable to that of Whites. In fact, the groups with the lowest divorce rates tend to be the Japanese and the Vietnamese, neither of which are usually Christian.

They'd know everything about you. More than what you know about you. They'd know every move.

If they really wanted to, they already could know every move. Cell phones, GPS units,and most cars these days can be tracked. The issue still remains, though, how do you realistically keep track of 300 million people at once? The answer: you don't. With a global government, things only get harder.

Everything after the above quote is just pure paranoid nonsensical conspiracy theory BS .

Those are for political reasons.

I don't disagree with that. The problem, though, is who stands to gain from promoting these ideas and who exactly is promoting them. These ideas are not coming from outside the church.

But have you met Christians who believe that homosexuality is a sin and therefore preach that homosexuals deserve God's mercy because God is merciful to sinners and tie it up to forgiveness of sins?

Nope, and I know a lot of Christians. Most fall on one side or the other of the spectrum, though. They either believe it's not a sin or they view homosexuals as corrupters who need to be marginalized from society.

He was more of a peaceful resistance.

Jesus's resistance was not against the government, but against what he considered a degredation of the Jewish culture and faith. If his intent was political revolution, he failed miserably as Jerusalem was utimately sacked, the temple destroyed, and in the end, the Jews were sold into slavery and the Romans took their land to establish the state of Palestine.

Tell that to the Jewish communities that eat Kosher.

Jews don't follow the new testament.

yaktheripper
How can the Church decide to take it in a new direction??? On what authority do they have to take things in a new direction? There is only one word and that is the word of God.
Crap...it's not rocket science.

A church can decide to take a new direction. It has happened over and over and over again during the history of organized religion.

Why do you think there are so many different religious sects?

Let's see... We have Judaism, Islam and Christianity all monotheistic faiths (singular god) They practically use the same bible (The Tanakh, Qur'an and the Old Testament all have shared ancestry).

All of these have different sects. Just by focusing on Christianity, we have four Major Branches which split into:
Catholicism: Roman Catholicism, Anglican, Old Catholicisms.
Protestant: Lutheran, Reformed, Baptist, Methodist, Evangelical and more.
Eastern: Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian.
Nontrinitarian: Jehovah's Witness, Latter Day Saint(Mormon), Unitarian, Christadelphian.

This happens whenever a religious leaderships argues about how the bible should be interpreted and breaks off to form their own religious body. Yes. They all agree, more or less that there is only one word that should be followed which is the word of God. But those words are open for interpretation. The bible is a very big book. It can be read by over thousand different groups who will all come to a different conclusion. Naturally, every single one of them will believe that they have the right idea.

Made me chuckle when a south park episode proclaimed that the Mormons were in fact the correct answer.

And let me ask. What's so wrong about treading the middle path? Why can't one keep an open mind? I'm the type that rushes in to stop a fight at parties. If that makes me an "enlightened one" then so be it.

Obviously if I hear a claim that somebody is flying outside, crapping rainbows as you so quaintly put it, it would be hard for me to believe on word alone. Heck, a video of the act will just convince me that somebody has been messing with the special effects.

I'm pretty certain that if the messiah would appear here on earth for real, he would be thrown in a loony bin. All of his miracles can be emulated by stage performers and ludicrous claims of being the son of god will undoubtedly cause many to roll their eyes. If Jesus actually existed, I wouldn't be surprised that he got crucified for his claims, regardless if they were true or not.

isukun
Jews don't follow the new testament.

I know that. I was pointing out that there are multiple mentions in the old testament that state that you can't eat whatever you want.

yaktheripper
oh....therealtj...stop being such a "salad bar Christian", picking and choosing what you wish to get out of the Bible and come to terms with the reality of the scripture.

Huh? How do you get that I'm picking and choosing? I just posted the ten commandments, which, according to you, is the most evil text in the world. I copied it directly, I didn't edit it in any way.

Someone
It's homophobic, inspires violence, slavery, mysogeny, and slavery. If you don't believe that breaking sections of the so called commandments could mean your husband or father has the right to kill you...then your not reading correctly. Your "picking and choosing" what you wish.

You said "slavery" twice. As for being homophobic, it's not. It (may be) against gays, but it isn't afraid of them. And I really don't see how you get that it inspires violence. It is pro-capital punishment and pro-war, but even today there are people who don't think these are bad. Also, what are you talking about "Mysogeny"?

Someone
The New Testament didn't just spring up out of Jesus Christ's ass. The foundation is the Old Testament. So within that dark, dark book your savior found the inspiration to carry on this load of rubbage.
Speaking of Jesus...let's be real. Did the brother even exist? I mean really? There's no historical evidence for his existence and many beleive that he's more of a metaphor if anything. His birthday was even ripped off from another religion for Christ's sake! (and no I'm not against Christmas...or Easter).

Yeah, actually I think you'd have to be pretty dumb to not know that his birthday wasn't really Christmas. This is just a date the church decided to say it was. As for him existing, no, there is no definite proof, however there has been some evidence pointing to his existence.

Someone
Paul is the promoter of your religion. Bet you didn't know he has more lines of dialogue in the Bible then Jesus. Hmmm...

Yeah, I do know that. What's your point?

Someone
Think...if you were born on an island out in the middle of nowhere and somehow survived to be a thinking adult, would you actually believe in God, Allah, or Yahweh, or whoever?

If I was never exposed to the belief, of course I wouldn't know it. There's no way I could've. I would probably end up making my own god.

Someone
I know that. I was pointing out that there are multiple mentions in the old testament that state that you can't eat whatever you want.

Yes, but the passage where it says "You can eat what you want" is in the new testament.

therealtj
Yes, but the passage where it says "You can eat what you want" is in the new testament.

The Christian Bible consists of both the old and the new testament. I made a lengthy post further above about mentions from that book. Or does the new book overwrite the old one? Don't forget that the commandments are from the old book.

Product Placement

therealtj
Yes, but the passage where it says "You can eat what you want" is in the new testament.

The Christian Bible consists of both the old and the new testament. I made a lengthy post further above about mentions from that book. Or does the new book overwrite the old one? Don't forget that the commandments are from the old book.

The old testament was made first, but in the new testament, Jesus basically said a lot of things from the old testament weren't important anymore. This is why Christians don't sacrifice lambs or stone people anymore.

Oh, man-- Kyupol, you did not cite Jack Chick as a reference...
To weigh in on the topic at hand I think that Jack Chick and people like him do contribute substantially to the way Christians and perceived and portrayed in the media. Now, most Christians I've actually met are not like Jack Chick, most of 'em seem are pretty reasonable in fact. The fact that you have people that are loud, vocal people that call themselves Christians and attack things like atheism, paganism, drugs, Islam, Catholicism, rock music, and the like from a position of ignorance is pretty damaging to Christianity's credibility. Like I said, I don't believe that people like that make up the majority of anything but they get a lot of attention, at the very least more so than the more reasonable religious people out there.

somebody mentioned Chick and i went looking around till i found this
http://www.luciferianliberationfront.org/arss_1.html [luciferianliberationfront.org]
i reaaly liked the ending panel ... just about sums up my feelings on christianity ,, the last panel that is ...

What do you call this entire thread and the majority of Debate and Discussion? Geez! There's so many anti-God/anti-religion threads the moderators have to lock some because they're too repetitive. And this section of this forum is very typical of what I see in many areas of the internet.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't so.

ParkerFarker
Yeah, this guy is being an arse, but I only see this on the internet. Not in the media or anything mainstream. I only see people pickin' on the Christians online. And even then I don't see it that much.

there are plenty of primitive and violent religions\ideoligies or whatever out there. the reason that everyone is picking on the christians is because they make up the majority of the electorate of the most militaristic nation on this planet. and whith so many nuclear weapons in the hands of a people that look forward to the end of the world and the return of their godman , those crazy beliefs deserve to be picked apart and exposed as the infantile mythology that it is !

No offense, lothar, but I thank you for giving me a good laugh first thing of the morning. Broad stroke/blanket statement much? lol!

I'm sure many people feel as you do, though.

lothar
there are plenty of primitive and violent religions\ideoligies or whatever out there. the reason that everyone is picking on the christians is because they make up the majority of the electorate of the most militaristic nation on this planet. and whith so many nuclear weapons in the hands of a people that look forward to the end of the world and the return of their godman , those crazy beliefs deserve to be picked apart and exposed as the infantile mythology that it is !

dueeast
What do you call this entire thread and the majority of Debate and Discussion? Geez! There's so many anti-God/anti-religion threads the moderators have to lock some because they're too repetitive. And this section of this forum is very typical of what I see in many areas of the internet.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't so.

ParkerFarker
Yeah, this guy is being an arse, but I only see this on the internet. Not in the media or anything mainstream. I only see people pickin' on the Christians online. And even then I don't see it that much.

I said in an earlier post that most DrunkDuck (debate and discussion, yes) has anti-religious views:

ParkerFarker
I don't think that the Christians have it any harder than the other monotheistic religions or Atheism. I never really encountered a lot of anti-christian news or shows when I was living in America, nor have I here in Australia. On DrunkDuck, yes I've seen a lot of anti-religion posts in Debate and Discussion, but mostly on other sites I've been on there were more pro-Christian beliefs. If anyone, I think it's the Muslims everyone's picking on. They always get searched at airports, there are terrible stereotypes many people actually believe... I just don't see a mass of Christian-hate.

And with anti-christian mainstream media, I would love to see examples?

eh, i suppose this's what'll happen. everyone always knows what everyone else should beleive. aethism ,agnostics,christian, muslim, whatever. most people HAVE a reason for what they beleive just as you do. everyone has their own experience here in life and hey,there's nothing wrong with talking about it with other people. but keep that in mind, everyone has their own eperiences and reasons why they beleive what they do and just becuase it's different then yours doesnt mean these people are idiots. some people'll argue about how wrong ya are till their blue in the face too. it's not just rules and boundries that make up a religion. sometimes something changes internally,ya become different. there might be a few strange things that happen, but when someone changes like that, you cant really argue that person out of it. you're asking them to trade something they know for something you dont know.im not saying everyone who adopts religion knows what they're talking about either, but dont generalize everyone cuz that's simply not how it is and you'll be wrong before ya even start.

people sit there and bitch at eachother about this stuff just becuase they dont get something. everyone's fuckin talking instead of listening.gets ya fuckin nowhere.