I find myself often put off by the lack of passion for our country, and to be honest very often I experience hesitance on the part of my liberal friends to wave the flag. This always burns me up. I didn't just plop down here like most of you, I raised my hand and pledged allegiance to our great nation as a naturalized citizen, formerly Canadian. What really pisses me off though is when conservatives try to assail my patriotism for showing dissent. Dissent is what America is about to me. Government by consensus.

America has a proud tradition of liberty and freedom, as well as a shameful legacy of prejudice and imperialism. I don't think there is a conflict with acknowledging our shortcomings, not if we learn from our mistakes, and that is the lasting legacy of our founding fathers, the machinery by which we may correct our mistakes and secure the blessings of liberty for all.

So I am curious, grab a soap box and tell me why you love America, and try to be honest about what you think is still wrong with her.

Katherine lee bates was ahead of me on this, here's a few lines that mean a lot to me, on this topic:

"America! America!
God mend thine ev'ry flaw,
Confirm thy soul in self-control,
Thy liberty in law.

O beautiful for heroes prov'd
In liberating strife,
Who more than self their country loved,
And mercy more than life."


The US was, as they say, the first nation intentionally based on a good idea. it's true that we have taken some bad steps away from the idea of the rule of law recently, but i remain confident that such things will be corrected. The US is still the model for the world's future, it is (as Churchill said, I think) the the last best hope for mankind.

So long as we remember why.

Before I read any replies in the thread, I must post the first thing that came to mind when reading the thread title:

Money.

America stands for the area that consists of the continents of North, Central and South America.

People from the United States call themselves Americans. These Americans stand for many different things, as all people generally do.

The United States stands for many things as well. It's history is full of highs and lows - as all countries are. It has brought freedom and slavery, equality and class warfare, peace and war, of free speech and strict censorship guidelines. We are a nation that will forever tinker with it's system of government in the hopes of getting it right one of these days.

Those who fight for justice and freedom are revered ... usually a generation or so after they die. While they are alive, the public revere others who stand for the status quo...because most people fear change more than freedom. That is, until the changes are made and we see that it works.

America - as good as anywhere else, and a darn sight better than many.

Ronson
We are a nation that will forever tinker with it's system of government in the hopes of getting it right one of these days.

America- the shadetree mechanics of governance.

For it's flaws, I doubt there are many other places I'd want to live. I'm a bit disappointed in the "protect people from their own stupidity" and "sue 'em all" mentalities, but hopefully it's just a bump in the road.

I hate the looming boogeyman that is here (and will probably get worse.) The Jefferson quote "those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither" really resonates with me lately.

warren

Ronson
We are a nation that will forever tinker with it's system of government in the hopes of getting it right one of these days.

America- the shadetree mechanics of governance.

For it's flaws, I doubt there are many other places I'd want to live. I'm a bit disappointed in the "protect people from their own stupidity" and "sue 'em all" mentalities, but hopefully it's just a bump in the road.

I hate the looming boogeyman that is here (and will probably get worse.) The Jefferson quote "those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither" really resonates with me lately.

Amen, but I think it was Franklin.

Ronson
America - as good as anywhere else...

Unless you count universal Health Care.

Or foreign policy.

Wow, I'm sorry to see some of you find so little to say about America's good points.

The best points to me lie in what could and should be, not what is.

Patriotism is a bandwagon thing. People tend to look at the popular opinion before they decide how much love and support to give their country. And what controls the popular opinion is often the current events. So naturally, with the USA being involved in an unpopular war, its own citizens are finding it en vogue to be unpatriotic and cynical, despite the fact that it's still a very good place to live.

No government-run overseas shenanigans change the fact that the USA is generally a good, safe place to live... especially when you compare it to other places. It irritates me that the USA as a people are often equated with the government and therefore hated (or self-hated). Worst of all are the people who don't even realize what it's like to live in other countries and who think that moving to Japan or somewhere else would suddenly solve all their problems.

Don't get me wrong, there are other good places to live, but the patriotism here really needs a shot in the arm.

Its interesting that the question starts out a question of values, and people answer with some sort of measurement.

To me, America stands for freedom, liberty, justice and, of course, money.


...



Or at least I used to believe all that garbage.

(well, I still believe in the money part).

You need an outside perspective! :)

From the outside, what is the US really, when stripped of mythology, patriotic affection, and rhetoric?

Well, It's the most powerful single nation in the world at the moment, and has been for a while. That's in terms of military, monetary, and cultural dominance. But it's not actually a "super" power any longer, at least nothing like it was during the Cold War, ie. it's no longer a "leader of the free world" against a similar opposing group; Now it's a strong power among allies of convenience and tradition rather than necessity, who are back to being competing powers and not followers, and the world is full of other similarly powerful nations that could take the US's position.
-The biggest dog among other big dogs, not a pack leader.

What does this mean from outside? The world is less stable now. The US still retains dominance but doesn't realise how much power it's lost, or doesn't want to see that and tries to carry on as before. Other's see the weakened state and chafe when they're still imposed upon from the US, this creates tension... It's like a royal in a nation that has just become a republic: tradition means he still gets respect and so does his money and his land, but it's not automatic any longer and others see that they can now have what he has and they're going to try and get it.

As for how others feel about the quality of the US's dominance, it depends. I think on balance people like US cultural exports even if they sometimes resent their ubiquity and influence. As for the power that's exerted, good intentions only mean so much, most US power is, and logically WILL be exerted for selfish ends; to retain dominance, to maintain and extend wealth. All countries do the same thing.

-The best thing in the way the US exerts power is that it doesn't try and impose it's own ways of doing things too directly (generally) on others. Seriously, there is no good way to do that. All talk of "freedom", "democracy", "Christian Values", "Rule of Law", "Free speech", "Rights", whatever: these are only negative when imposed. As far as other countries are concerned they have their own ideas about these things and you can stick yours up your own bottoms. :)
But as I say, the US is good in that it DOESN'T force these things on people -Generally that is, there are exceptions and it does do it indirectly, but others usually do it more.

This, above most things is what sets the US apart from other dominant powers in the past and indeed today, this is what makes the US "good", on balance.

ozoneocean
You need an outside perspective! :)

From the outside, what is the US really, when stripped of mythology, patriotic affection, and rhetoric?

Well, It's the most powerful single nation in the world at the moment, and has been for a while. That's in terms of military, monetary, and cultural dominance. But it's not actually a "super" power any longer, at least nothing like it was during the Cold War, ie. it's no longer a "leader of the free world" against a similar opposing group; Now it's a strong power among allies of convenience and tradition rather than necessity, who are back to being competing powers and not followers, and the world is full of other similarly powerful nations that could take the US's position.
-The biggest dog among other big dogs, not a pack leader.

What does this mean from outside? The world is less stable now. The US still retains dominance but doesn't realise how much power it's lost, or doesn't want to see that and tries to carry on as before. Other's see the weakened state and chafe when they're still imposed upon from the US, this creates tension... It's like a royal in a nation that has just become a republic: tradition means he still gets respect and so does his money and his land, but it's not automatic any longer and others see that they can now have what he has and they're going to try and get it.

As for how others feel about the quality of the US's dominance, it depends. I think on balance people like US cultural exports even if they sometimes resent their ubiquity and influence. As for the power that's exerted, good intentions only mean so much, most US power is, and logically WILL be exerted for selfish ends; to retain dominance, to maintain and extend wealth. All countries do the same thing.

-The best thing in the way the US exerts power is that it doesn't try and impose it's own ways of doing things too directly (generally) on others. Seriously, there is no good way to do that. All talk of "freedom", "democracy", "Christian Values", "Rule of Law", "Free speech", "Rights", whatever: these are only negative when imposed. As far as other countries are concerned they have their own ideas about these things and you can stick yours up your own bottoms. :)
But as I say, the US is good in that it DOESN'T force these things on people -Generally that is, there are exceptions and it does do it indirectly, but others usually do it more.

This, above most things is what sets the US apart from other dominant powers in the past and indeed today, this is what makes the US "good", on balance.

America not forcing it's own beliefs on countries you say?

We practically forced Democracy into Iraq (whether it was a good thing or not is not my problem) instead of just leaving the country the way it has been for centuries.

Missed something Priest_Revan?
Here:

"But as I say, the US is good in that it DOESN'T force these things on people -Generally that is, there are exceptions and it does do it indirectly, but others usually do it more."

-Exceptions ;)
-And others do, and have done that a lot more... Britain, France, Spain, Japan, Indonesia, India, China, Greece, Rome, The Netherlands, Portugal,Turkey, Russia, Germany. In fact it's a very good thing about the US, because not only does it do that less, it generally works to prevent others from doing it too, which is even better. :)
Now, that's not done selflessly either: stopping other countries from imposing their ways means they don't impinge on US influence or weaken the US's place in the world. Regardless though, the result is good.

Hawk
No government-run overseas shenanigans change the fact that the USA is generally a good, safe place to live...

well, what they have done "overseas" or in the case of south america (not realy overseas) could arguably make the US less safe! so i would say that it DOES change that fact !

Hawk
especially when you compare it to other places.

yea, like other places that US foriegn policy has Fuckd !

Hawk
It irritates me that the USA as a people are often equated with the government and therefore hated (or self-hated).

the US is still a democracy (or at least it is suposed to be ; that makes the US people responsible for the actions of their government , ignorance and apathy tward the govs actions are a valid reason to look down on the american people !

patriotism IS the problem ! it's mindless exeptionalism that isolates americans from the rest of the world !

The United States technically stands for something in the manner that it is made powerful by that thing. The United States is founded on the principle that all people are created equal and that the best form of government is one that is limited. These two basic things are ultimately what has made the United States the most powerful country in the history of the world.

Oh, and Ozone, the United States is still a superpower. This is according to the political science definition of the term which can be found here:

a superpower is a country that has the capacity to project dominating power and influence anywhere in the world, and sometimes, in more than one region of the globe at a time, and so may plausibly attain the status of global hegemon.

Check, Check, Check.

bobhhh
Wow, I'm sorry to see some of you find so little to say about America's good points.

That's not the question the thread poses, is it?

By that definition Vindi, I could name many countries as "super" powers" the fact is it's nonsense. It was a sort of fun buzzword during the cold war to describe something unusual that had never happened before: the phenomenon of two giant powers that could claim to control almost all of the planet, not just through their own strength but by being the leaders, the focus of their respective gestalt's.

Now, well, it's basically this: a measure of wanky, stupid, misplaced pride that has no place and no value any longer. It's like the battleship Missouri when it was still commissioned back in the 90's; a relic. Still a great and powerful symbol, but no longer having any real application. Oh, the guns still worked and it even carried nuclear weapons, and it could even withstand a close nuclear blast, which is something no other weapons system could or can do, but its days of usefulness were long over. :)

Vindibudd
These two basic things are ultimately what has made the United States the most powerful country in the history of the world

You should be embarrassed for writing such naive things! A little bit of US and world history can tell you why the US is in the position it currently occupies. NOT for the reasons you state I'm sorry, it's both more complicated and more simple than that, but I won't bother to explain because I'm not here to teach history... Suffice to say powers rise and fall, vacuums are filled, lucky breaks are taken advantage of etc.

As for "most powerful in the history of the world..." Oh man Vindi, cover up that hard-on, it's embarrassing the ladies! ^_^
No, it's not the case. Back in the 80's, there was a real toss-up between the US and the USSR, especially right at the end the the USSR quit the fight, but after that, no. It's just a big power.

Patriotism and nationalism blind people to reality. A country is just a country and loving your country is natural, but the claims you make for your country (when they're done in that way) are just childsh pride. Believe me, the most impoverished peasant in the least influential country in the stalest backwater will make all sorts of grand claims about his nation with just as much justification.

What's truly interesting are the power relationships between nations. When stripped of the cheerleading and emotional aphrodesia (coined a new word), they really help you better understand the world and what's really going on. It doesn't involve assigning white and black hats, but even so I made a huge concession to that sort of thing by actually saying that the US was a force for "good", and yet Vindi was STILL miffed because I retired the prideful and misplaced term or "superpower".

THIS is what nationalism and patriotism do to you! So, BE proud of your country by all means, but don't let pride blind you to the realities of the world.

I think one thing we can say, for better or worse, is that the US *currently* values style over substance. If you can say you're the best enough, then you must *be* the best. One only has to look at the high number of "bad actors" -- cherry picking data because the truth isn't quite as rosy.

In short, we've become a nation of used-car salesmen.


I'm hoping this temporary fad will be discontinued -- someday. Its what I work for.

There's a fine line between patriotism and jingoism, too. I think patriotism means seeing your country for what it is -- warts and all -- and wanting better for your countrymen. Jingoism is obsessed with "the best" and how we have to be the best. Jingoism also means you won't know when your country has been lead astray.

I think America used to stand for innovation and open markets -- note that open markets are not necessarily "government keep your hands off so that corporations can limit markets". Corporate dominance has pretty much hurt innovation in the broadband area, which is a bit of a shame, because Japan emulated our markets we had for internet access in the 80's and now in Japan, you can get more broadband cheaper. Japan also followed Demming while the US automakers were ignoring him. The automakers assert their lessons were learned, but I'm thinking they just put more 'quality' into their marketing.

Lots of things led to America becoming so rich and powerful. Taking possession of a really valuable continent and it's natural wealth was one of them.

But I think it's a mistake to say that the struggle between the US and USSR was a "toss-up." The real evidence is that the USSR was never really a serious rival in terms of strength and wealth. The USSR was a corrupt and broken sham - it just so happened that keeping that sham going was in the interests of a lot of Military Industrial complexes.

But i do not think you have to be blinded by patriotic zeal to see that the US has gets a lot of it's strength from the genius of it's construction.

The US is a nation of laws, not of men. That idea is an amazingly powerful one, I think. before the US, it would have been hard to imagine a country where our Officers and Leaders swear to defend a constitution - as opposed to swearing to defend some kind of national homeland or ethnic group.

The US has also had great success is giving a lot of freedom to it's people, and again, this freedom has been a great source of wealth and progress.

Of course, we see resistance to this genius all the time - The US is a work in progress. We have a dept of "homeland" security nowadays - but the idea of a 'homeland' is anathema to most Americans. America could be anywhere! We also see a strong move away from the rule of law in favor (Whenever someone tells you "the end justifies the means" they actually mean "the rules don't apply to me" - a deeply Anti-American idea). We see an endless attempt to give the US President unlimited power - but the checks and balances will be back in place soon, I think.

We also see resistance to the free marketplace of ideas that has made the US so powerful historically - the various attempts to ban Gay Marriage are an attempt to establish a government controlled culture - an idea popular in other countries, but one that must seem alien to any free people.

Throughout the history of the US, we have seen an endless tension between different ways of interpreting our values - but the overall path seems to have been one of progress. Over time, we have moved in a direction of increased freedom - that trend will continue, I think.

I'm not a patriot in the standard sense of the word - I find the phrase "My country right or wrong" to be, essentially, an Un-American one, fit for people who bow to kings and bend their knees to flags and symbols. But I do believe that the US was the start of something good. Sure, along the way it has often been bigoted, brutal, vicious, and greedy. There's certainly been a lot of that lately.

But I don't know of any nation that is free of that sort of thing. The general path of the US has been to increase freedom, and that has been good for everyone.

But i agree with OzoneOcean - I'm not a fan of national pride. There is nothing more useless than dwelling on the good things you have done in the past. The question is always - what will The US do Next?

I also agree that the term "superpower" seems obsolete. The power structures are different now. If we're such a superpower, why are we so deeply indebted to China? No, in an age where lots of small countries have atomic bombs and vials filled with biodeath, the term "superpower" is just a distraction.

The US will be important in the future to the precise extent that it embraces and supports freedom. If it turns from that path (as it sometimes seems to) then the US will whither. Everything else will flow from that choice. I'm hopeful that we'll find our way again. Perhaps that makes me a patriot - but I'd say, Im just an optimist.

ozoneocean
By that definition Vindi, I could name many countries as "super" powers" the fact is it's nonsense.

No. You can't.

What's nonsense is the idea that there is any other country in the world that rivals the United States on all the considered levels for consideration as a "superpower" (a legitimate term used in political science even if you don't like it). This is not about my being Proud To Be An Amurcan TM. This is a sober listing of facts.

Military? Are you suggesting Russia? Let me point out to you all the bases worldwide of Russia. ......
Or how about China? China can't even invade Taiwan. China has zero force projection.

Two things about the United States' military capacity.
1. Carrier Groups
Essentially floating military bases. The United States has 11 of these. This means that the U.S. can park a fully functional military base 12 miles off the coast of anywhere. It is all about force projection. Without the ability to put soldiers on the ground anywhere in the world at any time, no country can be considered an all-around superpower.

2. Ohio Class Nuclear Submarines.
The United States has 14 of these each of which are equipped with 24 Trident II SLBMS. Each Trident II has 4 independently targetable warheads. The math means that the United States has 1344 nuclear weapons all over the world ready to launch at any second. This comprises about 50% of the United States nuclear arsenal. Well at least what they are willing to admit they have.

You are welcome to show me any other country that has the logistical capacity to fight and win two wars simultaneously in two theaters. Don't worry about looking it up, there isn't such a thing besides the United States.

Economy? This is where some countries are capable of rivaling the United States. But the reality is that the United States has a GDP larger than the next top 5 countries combined. They are Japan, Germany, China, United Kingdom, France.

Culture? Living in Australia, I am sure you can appreciate the hegemony of the United States as far as that is concerned. United States culture is nearly universal. You can find some random refugee in the middle of Africa that has a New York Yankees hat on. Other countries export their culture, but none of them so permeate the planet as the United States. Again, not bravado, simple fact.

Altogether, all things considered, there is not a single other country that has the power that the United States has. It is not even close.

ozoneocean
It was a sort of fun buzzword during the cold war to describe something unusual that had never happened before: the phenomenon of two giant powers that could claim to control almost all of the planet, not just through their own strength but by being the leaders, the focus of their respective gestalt's.

Actually, it is more than just a buzzword, but then again I talk with people who have doctorates from MIT so what do I know.

ozoneocean
Now, well, it's basically this: a measure of wanky, stupid, misplaced pride that has no place and no value any longer. It's like the battleship Missouri when it was still commissioned back in the 90's; a relic. Still a great and powerful symbol, but no longer having any real application. Oh, the guns still worked and it even carried nuclear weapons, and it could even withstand a close nuclear blast, which is something no other weapons system could or can do, but its days of usefulness were long over.

Well that could be your definition, but it isn't the one that most people who use it are referring to.

ozoneocean
You should be embarrassed for writing such naive things! A little bit of US and world history can tell you why the US is in the position it currently occupies. NOT for the reasons you state I'm sorry, it's both more complicated and more simple than that, but I won't bother to explain because I'm not here to teach history... Suffice to say powers rise and fall, vacuums are filled, lucky breaks are taken advantage of etc.

I am talking about the founding of the country. Everything that is currently a reality all goes back to those very simple opinions about the world. Without them, there is no American Revolutionary War. I'm going to refrain from insulting you as I would hope you do the same for me. To me, the best definition of what a country stands for is what it was founded upon. Apparently you have a different opinion on that.

ozoneocean
As for "most powerful in the history of the world..." Oh man Vindi, cover up that hard-on, it's embarrassing the ladies! ^_^
No, it's not the case. Back in the 80's, there was a real toss-up between the US and the USSR, especially right at the end the the USSR quit the fight, but after that, no. It's just a big power.

The 1980s saw the dissolution of the Soviet Union, not them "quitting the fight". If the Soviet Union truly rivaled the United States in the 1980s, then it would still be around. As far as the history of the world, I will put the 21st Century United States military against any combined 5 in history that you pick. Here is an even comparison: Afghanistan. Read up on the Soviet invasion and compare and contrast with the United States invasion.

ozoneocean
Patriotism and nationalism blind people to reality. A country is just a country and loving your country is natural, but the claims you make for your country (when they're done in that way) are just childsh pride.

Well you are welcome to point out how my childish pride accounts for 11 Carrier groups and the fact that you know what Coca-Cola is.

ozoneocean
Believe me, the most impoverished peasant in the least influential country in the stalest backwater will make all sorts of grand claims about his nation with just as much justification.

Oh really? Just as much? Is Hollywood in Djibouti? Did Iceland liberate Europe? Has Australia put a man on the moon? Is there some other democratic form of government older than the United States?

ozoneocean
What's truly interesting are the power relationships between nations. When stripped of the cheerleading and emotional aphrodesia (coined a new word), they really help you better understand the world and what's really going on. It doesn't involve assigning white and black hats, but even so I made a huge concession to that sort of thing by actually saying that the US was a force for "good", and yet Vindi was STILL miffed because I retired the prideful and misplaced term or "superpower".

No, you completely misunderstood the term.

ozoneocean
THIS is what nationalism and patriotism do to you! So, BE proud of your country by all means, but don't let pride blind you to the realities of the world.

Reality is something you need to revisit when it comes to discussing raw data about the power centers in the international community.

StaceyMontgomery
I'm not a patriot in the standard sense of the word - I find the phrase "My country right or wrong" to be, essentially, an Un-American one, fit for people who bow to kings and bend their knees to flags and symbols. But I do believe that the US was the start of something good. Sure, along the way it has often been bigoted, brutal, vicious, and greedy. There's certainly been a lot of that lately.

Being a patriot is not about rubber-stamping everything a country does. Being patriotic means holding and defending the ideals that the country was founded upon.

I am proud to be an American and I really don't give a damn what anyone thinks about that because just like Abraham Lincoln, I know that my country "is the last best hope for mankind."

My country defended the world against communism and you are ***damned right I am proud of it. My country defeated Hitler and you are damned right I am proud of that. My country is the largest donor of aid to other countries on the planet and you are damned right I am proud of that. I am not going to mess around with mealy-mouthed self-doubt about the United States of America. I am not going to let the faults of my country, yes there are plenty, condemn her against the brilliance of her benevolence and you can bet your ass that there are two people that gave their lives to let you sit on a computer and run off at the mouth and have the freedoms that you have, Jesus Christ, and an American Soldier.

On hearing that Pearl Harbor was attacked, Winston Churchill said "We have just won the war."

Yeah, the United States sucks ass.

Watch enough History channel and The Military Channel and you'll find that yes, we are the most powerful nation in the history of the world. Spending what we do on the military will do that.

Not to knock generous Americans, but when people claim America is the most generous, they claim remittances, which is money people send home.

Its funny, because the nativist crowd complains about how much money people like Filipinos and Mexicans send home. Its their money. Its great that the American system allows for that, but so do a lot of other countries, which is why so many Filipinos work abroad.

In strict per-capita terms, we're #18 according to these folks .

Having said that, Americans are still pretty darn generous. But why this burning need to be #1, even if we have to fudge the numbers to get there? Is that what America stands for? When the rules don't let us "win" we change the rules?

Silliness, all around.

I post in all the forums, and usually the Top Drawer holds the funniest threads, But this one has just taken the prize for the funniest for this week. Honestly :)

Oh man, poke a jingogist in the ego and watch him SQUEEL! lol!
Vindi, I have to hand it to you man, that spirited, excited, offensive defence of manhood is something to be treasured. ...and even it were entirely true the fact of its truth would make it entirely unnecessary, logically. But I'm afraid it's not, my point stands and is actually made stronger, ironically: Patriotism and Jingoism (as mapaghimagsik says), makes fools of us and blinds us to the real world.
Hubris.

Ha! I can say that the US is good and I can say that it's the strongest, but that's not enough for the Jingoist, it must be "THE STRONGEST EVER!!" and "THE BEST EVER!!". And I'm sure your dad could beat up other people's dads as well. ;)

Look, I'm not going to debate any further on just how strong the US is and why it is, because that's not the point here and only goes off into further levels of ego defending or bruising, what you ask from me at that stage is equivalent to a woman telling you: "Oh love, you know the best lover I've ever had!" ("this week..." ). No.

So what I'll do is rephrase my point in a way that hopefully doesn't bruise egos.
What does the US stand for? Why, itself of course! just like All countries. But it doesn't use its power to dominate quite as much as others do and have done in similar situations, which is a positive thing.

ozoneocean
Missed something Priest_Revan?
Here:

"But as I say, the US is good in that it DOESN'T force these things on people -Generally that is, there are exceptions and it does do it indirectly, but others usually do it more."

-Exceptions ;)
-And others do, and have done that a lot more... Britain, France, Spain, Japan, Indonesia, India, China, Greece, Rome, The Netherlands, Portugal,Turkey, Russia, Germany. In fact it's a very good thing about the US, because not only does it do that less, it generally works to prevent others from doing it too, which is even better. :)
Now, that's not done selflessly either: stopping other countries from imposing their ways means they don't impinge on US influence or weaken the US's place in the world. Regardless though, the result is good.

Just because other countries may force "these things" on people more than us doesn't take away the fact that we have too.

Indirectly? Is that what you call it when we send in troops into opposing countries?

TnTComic

bobhhh
Wow, I'm sorry to see some of you find so little to say about America's good points.

That's not the question the thread poses, is it?

bobhhh
So I am curious, grab a soap box and tell me why you love America, and try to be honest about what you think is still wrong with her.

Why you love America would be the "Good Points".

Did you really misunderstand that, or is playing symantics just too hard for everybody around here to resist. :p

Priest_Revan
America not forcing it's own beliefs on countries you say?

We practically forced Democracy into Iraq (whether it was a good thing or not is not my problem) instead of just leaving the country the way it has been for centuries.

First of all, we did try to install Democracy at gunpoint in Iraq. *But* I'd like to point out that the country hadn't existed for centuries. It was cobbled together in around 1926 by the British.

The world has not left Iraq to its own devices, for better or worse. In some ways, I think its why fundamentalist muslims can make a case for the Caliphate, because in many respects, the destiny of the Iraqi people have never been their own.