subcultured
you might have problems publishing it if you are editing pictures that other people have taken.

's all my own photos or creative commons.

I'm afraid I don't realy understand what you're saying cs3ink. What do you mean by thumbs? As in thumb nails? If you want to see an earlier WiP shot that's easy, but it's just gonna look like a wireframe, or carboard cutouts in a... what do you call those little shoebox scenes we made in school? Wanna say "mobile" but I know thats not right... Can't remember... Anyway, Do you mean, like, a pencil draft? I don't have any. I either start by picking the photo I'm going to use and extrapolating the envirnoment(CG or photo) based on the angle, or I'm rendering the pannel straight out of Maya.

My aliens are all the same. It's a costume, and as it took me more than a month to make, I only have one. However, I put different people in the costume, so there are male and female aliens (though I call theme elves :p)

As far as self promotion- I'm always self promoting, but in this case the emphasis was on voiceing my frustration and hearing what outher people do what they feel this way.

As for the 180 rule- I'm operating under film rules, so as long as I don't break the 4th wall I'll be okay ;P

For an example, look at the last 2 panels of the last page posted in this thread. The 180 rule basically helps the reader by preventing sudden, jarring transitions in a scene. Using the rule gives the reader more visual "clues" from panel to panel, so that at no time are they taken out of the narrative by suddenly going "is that the same person?", "is that the same scene?", and the like.

If, for instance you are looking at a character talking, with a large building in the background, & bussling traffic, & then in the following panel you are standing 180 degrees behind the character, & you now see a lake & nice park in the background, that can be confusing. It's better to transition from the front view to a rear view with a panel between then allowing the reader to see that the city & busy street are next to a park. That is a simplistic explanation, but still true.

While the rule can be broken, if not done properly doing so will often take the reader out of the story by confusing them. IMO, anything that snaps the viewer out of the storyteller's reality is a very bad thing, & undermines the effectiveness of the story. Even a small confusion is a bad thing.

It may sound tricky, but it's really not.

When designing your scene, make sure there are no jarring changes in perspective. Make sure that each panel "sets up" the one following it. Sort of like a scene from a film, except in comics we have to design the "missing frames" into each panel.

Later,
Chip

FM,

You may be operating under "film rules", but unfortunately your medium isn't celluloid. That may be your biggest problem, & why you're having storytelling issues.

By sketching out your story in advance (or storyboarding) you could avoid the issues you are struggling with. You need to spend more time understanding the principles of solid, graphic storytelling to help you design better pages. You're not maximizing your narrative with the jerking shots, you're only confusing the reader, & frustrating yourself. Doing thumbnails may be a "pain" initially, but, if you're like me (& judging from your frustrations you are), you have a hard time designing and rendering at the same time. Plan out your shots on paper first. Work out your storytelling issue long before you turn on the computer, & you'll be thrilled with the results.

Your illustrative skills are phenomenal, & your technical skills are to be applauded, but your storytelling skills are in need of some serious study. And the shame's all the greater because you're only keeping your amazing work from having the impact it could.

By better mastering graphic storytelling, you'll also enhance your your knowledge of cinematic storytelling.

Later,
Chip

@ cs3ink:
Well if anything, I may be the one contributing to his self promo. I willfully bring to focus back to his pages whenever the topic strays. I know that if someone starts doing that for my posts, I don't hesitate to interact. That's what art community forums are for. I think the key is interaction; he's not just spamming and then not bothering to reply. Those types of posts I have serious grudges against.

But I think you're angry at him for making basic layout mistakes when his CG skills are so advanced. Comics were prolly not his first art interests, though.

==========================

I think his violation of the 180 is that when the camera spins in the 3rd panel, the alien (with his back facing the reader) should be on the left side of the panel, and the man's back should be on the right side. And to facilitate the camera spin, the 2nd panel should have been kept as a profile like in the earlier version.
When I said the 2nd panel wasn't good earlier, I meant that the pose was the same as in panel 1, making the man feel static.

==========================

@ Kris:
Read this entry and also click on the links. Very informative and frequently can be applied to comics as well. For example, even though the 30 degree rule can also be useful in comics, we don't have to worry about jump cuts.

And match cuts and cutting on action makes you look like a maestro. xD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/180_degree_rule [en.wikipedia.org]

mlai, I'm honestly not even a little upset at anyone.

FM asked, & I answered. I LOVE this medium, & struggle to learn more about it every day. I love discussing it.

You're right about the 3rd panel.

Later,
Chip

cs3ink
mlai, I'm honestly not even a little upset at anyone.

How about... intellectually affronted? :D

Yeah, all my background is in CG and film. I've owned less than 100 comic books in my life, and hadn't read comics much since junior high. I really like the "Transmetropolitan" comics my girlfriends has though, so I've been reading those lately.

I chose this medium because I'd written a movie script that would take a huge budget to produce, but as a comic it's plausible I could do it myself. I'd had a bit of experience with making comics when I worked for a company in San Francisco that did both film and comics, but I worked on the film side and only saw the surface level of the comic side while we were presenting at the ComicCon in San Diego.

I've tried drawing storyboards, but as I have to pick the best post and expression from the pictures of my actors, often the storyboard becomes meaningless because the angels in the picture are different than the storyboard. This was the problem with that middle panel. The "guy in the armor" was at a different angle than the environment. It just looked really awkward. That was really my own laziness though. I should have lined up the CG armor with the picture of the environment. It also lacked the detail of a character's introductory shot.

More like "to the point", mlai. Especially online, my directness can easily be mistaken for containing some sort of ire.

I have a ton to learn, & realise that others do as well. FM is a far better digital illustrator than I (though it's what I've done for a living for 20 years now), & his understanding of light and color are to be envied. The fact that I "may" understand graphic storytelling better than him only makes me encombant (sp?) to share what I think I know with him.

Later,
Chip

I've taken no offense, Chip is it? I suffer from no delusion of artistic supremacy. I too have much to learn. That's the point really. Your replies are excellent, and I thank you for them :)

Ah ha, there's the problem. As long has you are saddled by your reference, I don't see you overcoming your layout issues.

That's a helluva burden, FM. My heart goes out to you. I deal with that in my work as well, but, since it's not a storytelling situation, I have a heck of alot more outs than do you. While it may be easier to solve as your understanding of graphic storytelling goes, I think you'll remain troubled by your finished product because of your reference issues. That narrows you options by at least 25%, & makes your job considerably more difficult.

Keep at it. Your work looks great. The storytelling will improve with time, no doubt.

Later,
Chip

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/180_degree_rule [en.wikipedia.org]

i've seen that before in comics...i found it annoying when it's blatantly obvious.
like they switch teleported...

Anyway, getting back to the distant start of this topic,What is more important to you? Quality or quantity?, I'm on my second ever webcomic presentation and both times I vowed to emphasize quality over quantity.

That's a laudable sentiment, of course, but in my case has been a violated vow in the breech. Not that my stuff is entirely lacking in quality, mind you, but when I get right down to it, I'm more interested in presenting stuff rather than in presenting it to perfection.

I pretty much improve nagging errors as I go along. Then, eventually I get bored with the entire process and abandon the project altogether, leave it unattended for two or three months, get a wild hair up my rear orifice, hammer out a new idea, slap together some characters, and return to the cartooning fray.

So I gradually get better over time and during each new project, but I almost never let my desire for perfection - or even, to be perfectly honest, adequacy - slow me down in my productivity. I consider this attitude a major fault, but one that I'm resigned to living with.

It depends on your long term goal, really. If you intend to turn pro, then you should probably make it a habit to dot every 'i' and cross every 't'.