i'll say it as simply as i can, and that's just write a good character!and i've read a few other posts here who seem to agree with that. if you just make the guy hot and that's his whole purpose for being in the story, then that's shallow writing and it's lame. if he happens to be good looking at the same time, then whatever, cool, im sure it doesnt hurt the female followers. but dont just make him or her or whatever a symbol of everything you THINK chicks like to read. hell, im a girl and i can tell you i fucking HATE that done to death, dreamy vampire fruitcake bullshit. i say it from the utter depths of my soul, i fucking HATE it and wish it would just fucking DIE. you know why? becuase those characters never actually HAVE any character. it's a pretty face that's fucking all. it's dumbed down.

i'd say consider it IF you WERE just creating a female masturbatory aid, but it doesnt sound like your trying to do that, it sounds like you're trying to create a decent story. so just write the character how they'd be good in the story, and if you wanna make them a little more attarctive or whatever, thst's cool! just make sure they have some ACTUAL character!

i probably should of asked this before i wrote all that, but what kinda things are the female readers actually COMPLAINING about?

Well, every woman is different when it comes to style and taste in a comic. It's kind of difficult to just throw every woman in to the same box and try to make something that will appeal to all of us, because it's not gonna happen xD. I know many ladies, including myself, who are in to adventure and romance themed comics, others in to yaoi/yuri anime styled comics. Some women are in to comedy while others are in to horror or even hardcore violence (believe me, I know some xD). So as for appealing to a specific group of people, I wouldn't even bother trying.

My stories are based on a sci-fi, adventure theme, with a little romance in them to keep the crowd amused xD. Surprisingly, about 75% of my viewers are male, although I haven't intended to appeal to any 1 group of people. It's all about creating what you yourself would read.

I actually ask a lot of my friends who are girls their opinions on certain ways I may script a scene or interaction. And I think I am one of the few men who is comfortable admitting I actually watched all of the Sex and the City seasons INCLUDING the movie, of my own accord.

It's all about research. If you're not a firefighter, you ask one what it's like to be one; if you're not a martial artist, you find one to help you out. I felt that way with my storyline since so much of it is evenly divided between men and women characters. There needed to be a head check for me, to allow me to invoke that character's personality traits into the art.

I actually found that I have more female readers than male ones, but more REGULAR male readers. (in other words, most of the ladies I know prefer I have at least 30 strips completed before I show them the story.)

CharleyHorse
Actually with men, being the more primitive and simplistic of the sexes

Eh, that's a charming modern conceit... and of course it's utterly baseless ;)

Cartful of falling into those traps. There's doltish primitives in ALL of us, they just prefer different things.
It's funny when people do fall into the trap though. They think they're being respectful and sensitive to women, when in reality they tend to be patronising in quite a creepy way.
Makes me glad I'm a man and not subjected to that sort of thing.

Druchii
I actually watched all of the Sex and the City seasons INCLUDING the movie, of my own accord.

Oh gaaaaawd... that aspirational eyemorphine gaaaah!

I wouldn't want to attract the demographic that's aimed at. They can go and find their own entertainment.

Heh, heh, I wanted to see what reaction it would get.

In my estimation the notion that men are from Mars and women from Venus is not all that far off base when it comes down to entertainment. There is such a thing as crude male humor in entertainment in general, and it is alien to many women -- or repugnant. Then there is the middle ground stuff, the stuff that makes up the average sitcom material. Both sexes get that and are fine with it.

To get back to the top post, what do women want in a storyline or comic strip? Whatever they do want they probably DO NOT want what the average group of men participating in a bull session would want. There is a really crude television show airing on U.S. television nowadays called MANSWERS, which indulges in the lowest forms of male oriented entertainment. One could start with that as the baseline forbidden stuff and work upwards from there.

When you hit the middle ground area, you are probably in the entertainment safety zone.

CharleyHorse
Heh, heh, I wanted to see what reaction it would get.

In my estimation the notion that men are from Mars and women from Venus is not all that far off base when it comes down to entertainment. There is such a thing as crude male humor in entertainment in general, and it is alien to many women -- or repugnant. Then there is the middle ground stuff, the stuff that makes up the average sitcom material. Both sexes get that and are fine with it.

To get back to the top post, what do women want in a storyline or comic strip? Whatever they do want they probably DO NOT want what the average group of men participating in a bull session would want. There is a really crude television show airing on U.S. television nowadays called MANSWERS, which indulges in the lowest forms of male oriented entertainment. One could start with that as the baseline forbidden stuff and work upwards from there.

When you hit the middle ground area, you are probably in the entertainment safety zone.

I musta been on crack when I started this topic. Thanks for setting me straight, Chuck. Sitcom material? May as well eat rocks.

Wordweaver_three, it's been a great topic, and thanks for starting it. But I wonder, has any of it been of any help to you?

CharleyHorse
Wordweaver_three, it's been a great topic, and thanks for starting it. But I wonder, has any of it been of any help to you?

It's been some help. At the very least I've learned to just keep doing what I'm doing and not worry so much about who shows up to the party. Gives me free reign to put gargantuan tatas on my female characters, so that part's good. I was just hoping for a little insight. I received several seething crits, all from women (or girls, possibly). Apparently I had somehow offended them. Since I hadn't done much yet, and they didn't elaborate, I was confounded as to what I could have possibly done. Now I don't care, so all's well that ends well. At this point in my life I should know that not caring is the answer to all of life's problems.

I'm going to say it.. I do love cute animal characters in webcomics. A mischievous funny animal character is a plus for me. I'm thinking Spark from DD or Bun-bun from Sluggy Freelance. Even though I'm not sure if it's my girly want in a comic or if it's something specifically girls like in comics.

Apparently I had somehow offended them.

Well too bad. Somebody got offended on that page of MAG-ISA in where I showed the picture of Cho Seung Hui (V Tech massacre) and Harris and Klebold (Columbine massacre). I wasn't glorifying it though like some video on youtube that I saw that paints Cho Seung Hui as a hero.
I was just painting it as part of a big conspiracy (create school violence in order to justify martial law / police state) orchestrated by the Reptoids (the David Icke stuff), Satan and a few rich crazies on a power trip.

Also about the prologue part where a US soldier massacres his fellow troops then kills himself after being duped by a devil rat. He/she seriously believes that the Iraq war is justified and Saddam is really a threat.

But that's the whole idea of putting an "M" rating and/or a disclaimer that this comic may offend people.


I'm not gonna lie though. Yes I do get offended sometimes when I see some comics. For example:
- comic (no name mentioning) where Aleister Crowley is some kind of hero or something.
- various other comics that just think its so cool to openly bash Christianity. Especially a manga webcomic I saw that showed the pope being assassinated by some bimbo with a sword and a few clothes on.
- various comics (usually manga) that show how its hip and cool for girls to beatup guys for the shallowest reasons.
- the racist comics I saw (not on drunkduck) that just openly bashes asians.
- anything that promotes communism, fascism, abortion, eugenics, or anything that devalues human life.


But on the other hand though, I try to respect other people's opinion because I believe in free speech and individual liberty. I have my own political, religious, and philosophical views on things that some people may disagree on. And vice versa. I think though that you gotta draw the line if its openly calling for physical violence against a certain group.

You don't need to be so uptight about offending girls over female characters with gargantuan hooters. Relax, man!

Don't guys also get the same thing the other way around? We're incompetent, brutish players who can't get anything right and yet we find a way how to systematically conspire to oppress the female gender. lol!

who the hell cares what women want in a comic?


seriously, make a comic that YOU want to read. dont care about trying to attract a certain demographic or gender, if it is a well-done comic the fans will come regardless.

I'm not gonna lie though. Yes I do get offended sometimes when I see some comics. For example:
- comic (no name mentioning) where Aleister Crowley is some kind of hero or something.
- various other comics that just think its so cool to openly bash Christianity. Especially a manga webcomic I saw that showed the pope being assassinated by some bimbo with a sword and a few clothes on.
- various comics (usually manga) that show how its hip and cool for girls to beatup guys for the shallowest reasons.
- the racist comics I saw (not on drunkduck) that just openly bashes asians.
- anything that promotes communism, fascism, abortion, eugenics, or anything that devalues human life.

The great thing about webcomics is that there's no quality control so anyone with a computer can spit out their horrible opinion.

Religion and politics are just two subjects that people shouldn't touch because 99% of the time the writer has absolutely no idea what they're talking about. Instead of coming across as clever, they just paint themselves as uninformed, ignorant, uneducated assholes who form their entire opinion around stupid shit they've seen on tv which also plays on ridiculous stereotypes.

I hate strawmen arguments and pretty much every "social commentary" writer uses them. Pointing out the contradictions in the qur'an or comparing the US military to Nazi's doesn't make you smart or clever, it just makes you dumb.

I disagree. I think that this medium needs more of people doing things like that. if i put a character in my comic thats a religious nutbag, does that make me a religous nutbag? no, it sure as hell doesnt. so if someone puts in a character that blows up churches or abortion clinics, I look at it as...was this done for a reason?

I dont have a problem with people expressing their opinions through comics....thats what this medium is for. what I hate though is two-faced-ness. if you are going to make a statement, MAKE IT.

comics need to say something....anything...otherwise its just a visceral experience that means nothing.

Getting back on topic here, If you want to know how many girl readers you have go here:
http://mypollcreator.com/

You can use a made-up email for your account, then create a poll that looks like this:
What's you gender?
-female
-male
-trans/other

And paste the code inside your comment box html, aligning it to whichever side you choose. Here's mine:


It also blocks votes to one per IP address so you wont get to many repeat votes. :)

you could try read comics that are created by women.

usually that shows what they are interested in a comic.

Off topic: while I believe the artist/author should at least be somewhat (and by "somewhat" I mean "very") informed on something before they bash it, I also believe what their characters do doesn't reflect them. That would make most of us very disturbed. After all, you don't have to take on the mentality of a psychopathic killer to write one. (Unless you're acting, like say, Nolan's Joker)

Still, I've seen too many comics do the bashing/portrayal of religious nuts thing the would be so much more refined with an actual knowledge of the religion and what religious nutcases actually do, their mentality, etc.

:B

On-topic: JoeL_CQB, going on the big assumption that at least 50% of all the webcomics worth reading are made by girls, you'd find the answer to be something already stated in this thread: women are just as varied in the tastes as men, so there's no one thing or even a real list of things they're looking for.

Also, I don't favor women having big breasts in comics because they're almost always lead to be direct fanservice rather than being a woman who happens to be bust-gifted (see what becomes of Mia Fey three games in), but that won't make me dislike a comic if the comic's good.

NickGuy
I disagree. I think that this medium needs more of people doing things like that. if i put a character in my comic thats a religious nutbag, does that make me a religous nutbag? no, it sure as hell doesnt. so if someone puts in a character that blows up churches or abortion clinics, I look at it as...was this done for a reason?

I dont have a problem with people expressing their opinions through comics....thats what this medium is for. what I hate though is two-faced-ness. if you are going to make a statement, MAKE IT.

comics need to say something....anything...otherwise its just a visceral experience that means nothing.

Most webcomickers want to be taken seriously.

I can't take you seriously if you have the outlook of a high school student but think you know everything about the world.

SAMPLE COMIC

Panel 1
Strawman 1: Hey strawman 2, did you know Europe has free health care?
Strawman 2: Free health care sucks.

Panel 2
Strawman 1: Hey strawman 2, I noticed you were sick the other day but didn't go to the doctors.
Strawman 2: My insurance didn't cover it.

Panel 3
Strawman 1: America sucks.
Strawman 2: Yeah.

Creator's Commentary Box: hey guys just wanted to tell you my opinion of the country i live in this is so true why do i have to pay to receive goods america sucks (please buy my stupid t-shirt kthx)



You should have put an option for alien or mickey mouse or something. More people would have clicked on it.

CharleyHorse
In my estimation the notion that men are from Mars and women from Venus is not all that far off base when it comes down to entertainment.

I don't know. Sure there's stuff we're lead to think we're supposed to like because of the way we're brought up based on our sex, but even a lot of that is just based on yur particular education and social environment rather than cultural learning in general.

For instance, the "guy stuff" I (as a male) like in entertainment is tits and bums, and some action and war stuff. That's about the size of it. Your gross-out fart humour I can take in bits and bobs but too much just pisses me off. Sports stuff go go F** itself. As for the primitive crap you're talking about, only the dumbest guys I know really like that, the dumbest girls too.

But going with the "men primitive humour" vs "women Sophisticated humour" will get you no-where. That really is modern. In the old days that idea was based on class as well as sex, it went like this:
-Educated, wealthy, upper-class men enjoyed the most sophisticated forms of entertainment.
-Their wives couldn't understand that, so they liked well made, but less complex forms of entertainment. Simpler comedies and romances. being women, they weren't suited to being able to understand or view more risque themes or clever humour, so all their entertainment was fairly clean.
-More middle-class men liked lower forms of entertainment; simpler stuff again.
-Wives of middle-class men couldn't even handle that, they were meant to enjoy dumbed down versions of what the upper-class women saw, but even LESS risque and safe to protect their gentle, primitive sensibilities.
-Lowerclass men and women were suitable only to enjoy or understand only the most base, bawdy, brutish forms of entertainment. By birth and intelligence they were incapable of anything else.

You see how these sorts of assumptions stem from bizarre prejudices? The same sorts of criteria have been applied to African Americans and all sorts of other groups.
in the 20thC we exploded a lot of those, we discovered that women like sex jokes as much as men for instance... only to replace them with this latest idea of "men like dumb", "women like smart".
...If I was locked in a room and subjected to the sorts of TV and movies that are supposedly meant to appeal to the "dumb male" I would kill myself.
-----------------

I'm not saying you're like that, but what I am saying is you can't take that "men like this and women like that" idea too far. Like Senshuu says; "women are just as broad in their tastes as men."
You'll get plenty of women who enjoy a good fart joke and plenty of men who'll read a lovely dovey romance (Cowboy romances were General MacArthur's fave genre), but if you're angling right out to just aim your stuff at your idea of a super male or super female audience based on those preconceptions, you'll probably only get a strange minority.

ozoneocean, we are pretty much in agreement near as I can tell. I've argued your side of the issue many times myself. Viva equality in every respect in both the good and the bad!

If you want to argue the Nature versus Nurture issue, however, then I dare not venture where others have tread so many times before and done so with doctorates boldly waving before them.

While anything can be taken too far, so too can the bromide that there are no fundamental differences between the ways that males and females think.

The thing is that these are not important differences.

Oh and I base my opinion on mere anecdotal evidence. Being married for a very long time and having done quite a bit of tutoring of both sexes over the years. The problem with anecdotal stuff, however, is that it sucks as proof.

I will add, however, that I am very much aware that women also like crude humor. I grew up with three sisters and was exposed to their friends as a youth. Shudder! Even there, however, there tends to be a variance between female and male samples of crude humor. It's a variance in type not degree.

ozoneocean
You'll get plenty of women who enjoy a good fart joke and plenty of men who'll read a lovely dovey romance (Cowboy romances were General MacArthur's fave genre), but if you're angling right out to just aim your stuff at your idea of a super male or super female audience based on those preconceptions, you'll probably only get a strange minority.

Granted, which is why I don't aim my gag material one way or the other. But my point that anyone concerned with such issues would be better off keeping to the medium rather than to the extremes regarding cartooning is probably still correct. If one is puzzled enough regarding what women want to ask the question then playing it safe is the answer . . . unless you just decide to shrug and go for broke, letting the flying chips land where they may. :)

angry_black_guy
I can't take you seriously if you have the outlook of a high school student but think you know everything about the world.

SAMPLE COMIC

Panel 1
Strawman 1: Hey strawman 2, did you know Europe has free health care?
Strawman 2: Free health care sucks.

Panel 2
Strawman 1: Hey strawman 2, I noticed you were sick the other day but didn't go to the doctors.
Strawman 2: My insurance didn't cover it.

Panel 3
Strawman 1: America sucks.
Strawman 2: Yeah.

Creator's Commentary Box: hey guys just wanted to tell you my opinion of the country i live in this is so true why do i have to pay to receive goods america sucks (please buy my stupid t-shirt kthx)

hahaha now that i cant argue with. :)

NickGuy

angry_black_guy
I can't take you seriously if you have the outlook of a high school student but think you know everything about the world.

SAMPLE COMIC

Panel 1
Strawman 1: Hey strawman 2, did you know Europe has free health care?
Strawman 2: Free health care sucks.

Panel 2
Strawman 1: Hey strawman 2, I noticed you were sick the other day but didn't go to the doctors.
Strawman 2: My insurance didn't cover it.

Panel 3
Strawman 1: America sucks.
Strawman 2: Yeah.

Creator's Commentary Box: hey guys just wanted to tell you my opinion of the country i live in this is so true why do i have to pay to receive goods america sucks (please buy my stupid t-shirt kthx)

hahaha now that i cant argue with. :)

That actually gives me an idea for a comic: I could pretty much draw that but draw the strawmen as scarecrows or something. Heehee, pun!

But I digress. As for what women like in comics I'll be straight with you, I don't know. I don't think that there's a winning formula that if you do X,Y and Z you'll have more female readership. Also, no matter what you do you're going to offend someone. Hell, my comic's offended at least one person. Anyway, I think that you've got some good advice out of this so I'll shut up.

patrickdevine
I don't think that there's a winning formula that if you do X,Y and Z you'll have more female readership. Also, no matter what you do you're going to offend someone.

Having a strong female lead role that interacts with the story in a way girls can relate to, good sense of fashion and clothes design for your characters, and pretty art will seriously bring girls to your comic.
This is story comic's though, if you've got gag-a-day then no real formula exists..

Wordweaver_three
When I designed the comic I'm working on now I tried to make it appeal to both men and women. Once again I'm figuring out that I don't know dick about women. Inevitably, most of the negative crits that I get are from females (granted, my sense of humor is a bit on the uh, "icky" side). In order to attract female readers do you have to have an awkward anime schoolgirl and a one dimensional, but very handsome, bad-boy vampire love interest? Are cute, fluffy characters a must? What am I doing wrong here? Should I even care?

Cute, fluffy characters aren't important. Interesting character relationships + interactions (not necessarily romance) are good. Make sure your characters are developed, and different enough from eachother that there can be some interesting, wierd arguments. Female characters aren't necessary, but if you've got them, they should be developed enough to play their role in the story.
A lot of the most popular fantasy comics (Earthsong, Pheonix Requiem) are written/drawn by women, so probably a lot of women who like comics like fantasy.
The main thing in your comic that could drive women away would be the way you started. "A guy is crushed by a falling rock" tends to be more guy humour (my mom and my sister really like that kind of think in Sponge Bob, though). Also, is this RPG influenced? I can't really tell, but if you're doing RPG jokes, keep in mind that they'll be confusing to people who don't roleplay.
Also, in general, your pages are too large for my liking. The text is big, so you should be able to shrink to 75% of the current size. That would make the comic load faster. You should also take all those splash pages out of the archive and make a gallery or character introduction section (can't help you there, never used DD before).
Don't worry too much about female vs. male readers. There's a lot of variation in tastes, so just write a good story.

There was a discussion on Tomgeeks (www.tomgeeks.com, a womens' comic/geekery forum) about how to write female characters. (http://www.tomgeeks.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=583, a bit of a long read, but interesting)

Night_Mare
Also, is this RPG influenced? I can't really tell, but if you're doing RPG jokes, keep in mind that they'll be confusing to people who don't roleplay.
Also, in general, your pages are too large for my liking. The text is big, so you should be able to shrink to 75% of the current size. That would make the comic load faster. You should also take all those splash pages out of the archive and make a gallery or character introduction section (can't help you there, never used DD before).

Not really gonna do much in RPG jokes even though I have to admit that it is RPG influenced. But no, it's not gonna be specifically for gamers like "Order of the Stick" or anything like that. Just about everyone should understand the jokes and story. Those first few pages were a bit obscene as far as size, the rest are much smaller.

Oh yeah.

In regard to cute fluffy mascot characters, I like them, but I've started to like them less as I get older because most of the time they don't serve a purpose. Cute side characters always did at least one important/notable thing in Disney movies and the like, but in anime series (and consequently a lot of webcomics that feature one), they don't seem to actually have any function besides being cute. And just being cute doesn't cut it anymore.
I think guys are just as inclined to like cute mascots as they are to like cute girls, but they might not admit it.

I've made sure to give my cute mascots function, or at least make them a little different. (None of them will actually feature for a while though)

I can't tell you what all the many kinds of women might want in a comic because of unique values and age demographics as well as interests and all that is stated in this thread thus far BUT I can think of a story basis that should cover what woman "secretly" want and may or may not be shameful to admit it. I've had to look deep into this being a girl myself. Yet out of the fellow female writers I've worked with (lol and one possibly gay male). It's come down to 'the never ending love story'.

Wimen want a tortured-forbidden romance with a happy ending. A literary contradiction but it's so true! You have a set of two characters that tears them every which way to be together or apart or to even exist at all and somehow they manage to work it all out in the end, despite how illogical it may be. 'love conquers ALL'. I know it sounds silly but I'm intending to give this a serious answer. It's like a bad translation but that's literally what seems to be an underlying theme in this case. ...and I'm grossly generalizing...

I'm not excluding girls who despise romance genre, no in fact despising of a love interest in a comic is just another mechanic. Say the conflict is the lack of love or restraint to the point where the story becomes so comedic it's a complete mockery of itself. This caters to a ton of women who dig this comedic genre, at which point I think we start to relate to the comic.

And we don't want a comic where we can put ourselves in characters shoes but we want to be able to empathize with what they're feeling, how it makes 'us' feel. Hit that on the head and you'll have die-hard fans for life. ;p The addiction starts there.

As for "never-ending"... best leave a story open-ended for a litter of possibilities after the inevitable ending. I think girls don't really want to see a good story come to an end, even if it's satisfying. (it never is, we is just that hungry)

ooh and for me, personally...always always ALways throw in a good sword-fight.


The rest I leave to this thread...


PS-twilight was shit! HAHAHA i'm allowed to say that because I did go see it. amongst the squealing 12 yr old fangirls I would randomly scream rape and crack necrophiliac jokes at all the mushy scenes. That isn't to say I didn't try to enjoy it but ...I've had better!

me personally? Ima still hot after william wallace gets his guts torn from him and screams freedom as his head gets chopped off. hawtness...

I get all my best dates from drawing comics...funny that.

If you want to crassly appeal to the ladies' basest instincts, forget the foreplay and just study up on advertising, it will tell you all you need to know.

I hope that you don't, though, so put me in the "just create the best comic you can" group. Do that and you'll attract the exactly the female readers you want: the ones who like your work.

I don't really see the point in gearing your comic one way or the other. In my mind, if you want to make a comic, make the comic you want to make, not the comic you hope a certain demographic of audience will like.

There's been a lot of great, interesting points and ideas brought up in this thread, but ultimately I think you're selling women short by trying to pigeonhole them in to one set of things that they'll like. There are all kinds of women that like all kinds of different things, same as for men. IT would just seem to reason that you make a best possible comic that YOU want to make and the PEOPLE who are interested in that sort of thing, will read it. Period.

Unless you were really more interested in selling advertising (which, we're talking webcomics here, so... really, c'mon!), where you really need to zero in on a target demographic.

The problem here is that men are easy to understand,
but NOBODY understands women, not even women. :D

(runs and hides)


Seriously, though just treat each character like an individual and don't try to force opinions or stereotypes. There is no way to reach every single person. My comic has about the same amount of female readership as male (at least according to the comments and people I know in real life) but it obviously does not appeal to ever member of one gender or the other.

After reading this entire thread, my conclusion is...

If you're a male author and you just want to feel good about yourself:
Follow the advice of the majority of this thread, which is "Do your best work! Then you get the readership you deserve! Man hug~!!"

If you're a male author and you seriously want to attract female readership for some reason:
Ignore every post every male (except me) had typed in the thread, cuz males srsly don't know jack crap (but always always like to think/pretend that they do). Only exception is if 1 of the males is the rare author of a popular shoujo... which afaik I don't see here.

Then, read only the posts by females in this thread. Done.