Mister Mxyzptlk
Well, as long as the little girls are told they are special it's all good.

At least that's what bobhhh tells me...

http://www.drunkduck.com/community/view_topic.php?cid=241&tid=29731&p=2

No that's not what I said. And you're "I'm proud to be a jerk" act is wearing pretty thin.

Personally I think it's easy to say this is bad, and in many cases it is, but mostly because the parents are sending bad messages to the kids.

Face it women are going to grow up to be objectified. It's an ugly world. For some young girls the only thing they will have to lift them out of poverty is their looks. If we called it child modeling or acting, it wouldn't seem so heinous. Much like sports it doesn't make a child well rounded as a person, but you shouldn't be so quick to toss away an opportunity because being poor in this country is such a handicap. But just like sports there should be a mandatory emphasis on bettering yourself scholastically, and setting aside money for education.

I think if doing these shows can gain the child some carreer or financial security, then it could be alright, as long as the parents explain to the child the reality of what is going on and provide perspective and guidance.

Aurora Moon
I'm just curious, everyone.... at what age do you think it would be acceptable for a minor to start into pageants? In their teens only? or at age 10? or.... never..until they're of a adult age?

Well, my niece started around 4-5, did it pretty steadily for 3-4 years, and has decided it wasn't fun anymore. So she's quit. Totally her choice. That's the way it should be.

Tantz Aerine
Children's labour is against the rights of Man, no matter how you look at it.

As a member of an agrarian culture, I'm going to disagree. Children's exploitation, I'll agree with.

DAJB
Although my real reason is because movies with kids in them tend to suck.
;)

With the notable exception of The Goonies, then yeah, I HATE Disney channel, but my sister has convinced her kids that cartoons are "stupid and babyish" so it's all they watch, as much as I try and introduce them to something other.

crazyninny

TnTComic
Its sad.

With a splash of disgusting, and a dash of 'WHAT THE HELL!?!?!'.

In some cases, yeah. But I think its sad in both the mother and the child's case. The mother is pathetic for what she is doing to her child and the lessons she is teaching her. The child is sad for obvious reasons. These things need to be done away with.

bobhhh
Personally I think it's easy to say this is bad, and in many cases it is, but mostly because the parents are sending bad messages to the kids.

But I'll bet you the moms are telling their kids they are special. Heck, they are even SHOWING them they are special. They buy the kids pretty clothes and spend lots of time with them. They take the kids to beauty salons and do all sorts of things for the girls that other little girls don't get to do. That makes them feel very special I'll bet. Heck, these kids are getting a extra large serving of specialness from their mommies. They certainly wont be "living down" to any low expectations.

Mister Mxyzptlk

bobhhh
Personally I think it's easy to say this is bad, and in many cases it is, but mostly because the parents are sending bad messages to the kids.

But I'll bet you the moms are telling their kids they are special. Heck, they are even SHOWING them they are special. They buy the kids pretty clothes and spend lots of time with them. They take the kids to beauty salons and do all sorts of things for the girls that other little girls don't get to do. That makes them feel very special I'll bet. Heck, these kids are getting a extra large serving of specialness from their mommies. They certainly wont be "living down" to any low expectations.

I know you think this is a gotcha because of what I said in the other thread, but you miss the point.

There is a difference between "you are special" and "you are better than everyone else because you are more beautiful."

The first is encouraging a child to have a positive sense of self, the latter is a bad message because it gives a child a warped sense of arrogant self importance.

bobhhh
There is a difference between "you are special" and "you are better than everyone else because you are more beautiful."

The first is encouraging a child to have a positive sense of self, the latter is a bad message because it gives a child a warped sense of arrogant self importance.

I think the real message it sends is that your 'specialness' is based on your looks. A nasty little outlook on life that a shallow mother is passing on to her child.

TnTComic

bobhhh
There is a difference between "you are special" and "you are better than everyone else because you are more beautiful."

The first is encouraging a child to have a positive sense of self, the latter is a bad message because it gives a child a warped sense of arrogant self importance.

I think the real message it sends is that your 'specialness' is based on your looks. A nasty little outlook on life that a shallow mother is passing on to her child.

It can mean that, and that is bad, but it could also mean that looks can be an asset, and taking advantage of that shouldn't automatically mean the kid is destined to become a shallow egomaniac. It's like Jed Clampett finding an oil well on his property. It doesn't mean he is a better person, just that he has discovered a potentially valuable resource.

bobhhh
There is a difference between "you are special" and "you are better than everyone else because you are more beautiful."

So, you are saying you only want parents to TELL their children they are special, you don't want them to work at SHOWING them that they are special.

Mister Mxyzptlk

bobhhh
Personally I think it's easy to say this is bad, and in many cases it is, but mostly because the parents are sending bad messages to the kids.

But I'll bet you the moms are telling their kids they are special. Heck, they are even SHOWING them they are special. They buy the kids pretty clothes and spend lots of time with them. They take the kids to beauty salons and do all sorts of things for the girls that other little girls don't get to do. That makes them feel very special I'll bet. Heck, these kids are getting a extra large serving of specialness from their mommies. They certainly wont be "living down" to any low expectations.

What I personally saw when I was in the pageant, we'er scared, sad girls that didn't know who they were.

Now, another issuse for my DD's, what about the siblings of these pageant girls? Usally, you only see the mother with only one duaghter at all time, but there are siblings out there. What should be done to these parents that push and push one child to be a star, but ignore there other childern?

Aurora Moon
I'm just curious, everyone.... at what age do you think it would be acceptable for a minor to start into pageants? In their teens only? or at age 10? or.... never..until they're of a adult age?

For me, I think around 15-17. To give them time to really figure of if this is what they want to do, let them focus on school work first, and to develope into the person they want to be.

Mister Mxyzptlk

bobhhh
There is a difference between "you are special" and "you are better than everyone else because you are more beautiful."

So, you are saying you only want parents to TELL their children they are special, you don't want them to work at SHOWING them that they are special.

No, I think prents should tell their children they are special, NOT better. Kids should be told that when the pageant is over, they still have to do their homework and chores. They are no better than their siblings, they are just in a pageant. Does a child have to feel superior to their classmates or their siblings if they win a soccer cup or a spelling bee? No. They can take pride in their achievement, but they shouldn't neccesarily be doomed to suffering an inflated ego. That is the job of good parents, setting limits and providing perspective.

bobhhh
No, I think parents should tell their children they are special, NOT better.

But "special" is defined as, "distinguished by some unusual quality, being in some way superior" Superior... a synonym for better, isn't it?

bobhhh
Does a child have to feel superior to their classmates or their siblings if they win a soccer cup or a spelling bee? No. They can take pride in their achievement, but they shouldn't neccesarily be doomed to suffering an inflated ego.

So why single out the children who do best at soccer or spelling in the first place? Special means to be unlike the average. By holding the contests we are pointing out who is special.

Mister Mxyzptlk

bobhhh
No, I think parents should tell their children they are special, NOT better.

But "special" is defined as, "distinguished by some unusual quality, being in some way superior" Superior... a synonym for better, isn't it?

bobhhh
Does a child have to feel superior to their classmates or their siblings if they win a soccer cup or a spelling bee? No. They can take pride in their achievement, but they shouldn't neccesarily be doomed to suffering an inflated ego.

So why single out the children who do best at soccer or spelling in the first place? Special means to be unlike the average. By holding the contests we are pointing out who is special.

To the first point, special can also mean unique, and unique is not by definition automatically better.

To the second point, I think you're just being ironic here(but it's often hard to tell with you, congratulations), but the fact is that we live in a world where we are judged on our merits, and that is something that won't change. So what's wrong in taking advantage of those merits, as long as it's done ina healthy, nurturing manner. The pageants themselves aren't the real problem, it's parents who either force their kids into it and/or feed then horrible messages about their self image.

Dictionary
Special -adjective

1. of a distinct or particular kind or character: a special kind of key.
2. being a particular one; particular, individual, or certain: You'd better call the special number.
3. pertaining or peculiar to a particular person, thing, instance, etc.; distinctive; unique: the special features of a plan.
4. having a specific or particular function, purpose, etc.: a special messenger.

I love the dictionary. Now if you put this through a thesaurus you will turn up some references to better, but most pertain to the concept of uniqueness, so i guess it's all about what you're subtext is.

bobhhh
So what's wrong in taking advantage of those merits

Looking good isn't a talent.

TnTComic

bobhhh
So what's wrong in taking advantage of those merits

Looking good isn't a talent.

Tell that to Jessica Alba.

TnTComic

bobhhh
So what's wrong in taking advantage of those merits

Looking good isn't a talent.

Agreed, making an ugly person look good is a talent.

horseboy

Tantz Aerine
Children's labour is against the rights of Man, no matter how you look at it.

As a member of an agrarian culture, I'm going to disagree. Children's exploitation, I'll agree with.

You are right. I should have phrased that better :) But when I said 'labour' I obviously didn't mean helping out the family as you seem to hint at. Children do work nowdays. But 'labour' should allude to work that is not cut out for children, unhealthy for children and expoitative of children.

Tantz Aerine

horseboy

Tantz Aerine
Children's labour is against the rights of Man, no matter how you look at it.

As a member of an agrarian culture, I'm going to disagree. Children's exploitation, I'll agree with.

You are right. I should have phrased that better :) But when I said 'labour' I obviously didn't mean helping out the family as you seem to hint at. Children do work nowdays. But 'labour' should allude to work that is not cut out for children, unhealthy for children and expoitative of children.

eh. I don't know about that. Labor can simply mean "Work". So would a young boy/girl doing newspaper delivery and other jobs be expliotive? I don't think so... as it gives a way for the kids to earn thier own money while learning more about how the business world work. And plus it's within their ablities.

And plus in some countries some kids just don't have the privelege to expect thier parents to provide everything that they want. Key word--want. As in things they don't really need, but want.
Some poor families will basically only/can provide the kids with the basics--food, shelter, clothing. As seeing it is all they can afford.
So kids having kid-oriented jobs can do wonders for thier self-esteem. this way they don't have to be so helpless about being unable to get what they want in life, such as being able to afford things like a new bike,etc... thanks to thier jobs.

and I don't think it's unhealthy for a kid to understand that some things in life... if you want it, then you have to earn it... instead of always expecting your parents to go get you it for "free".

Aurora Moon

eh. I don't know about that. Labor can simply mean "Work". So would a young boy/girl doing newspaper delivery and other jobs be expliotive? I don't think so... as it gives a way for the kids to earn thier own money while learning more about how the business world work. And plus it's within their ablities.

And plus in some countries some kids just don't have the privelege to expect thier parents to provide everything that they want. Key word--want. As in things they don't really need, but want.
Some poor families will basically only/can provide the kids with the basics--food, shelter, clothing. As seeing it is all they can afford.
So kids having kid-oriented jobs can do wonders for thier self-esteem. this way they don't have to be so helpless about being unable to get what they want in life, such as being able to afford things like a new bike,etc... thanks to thier jobs.

and I don't think it's unhealthy for a kid to understand that some things in life... if you want it, then you have to earn it... instead of always expecting your parents to go get you it for "free".


Like I said, I defined 'labour' as I understand it. Let's not turn this into a meaningless scemantics thing. I think we both agree that children's work is okay- it teaches kids skills that they will need in their adult life. But it is NOT ok to exploit a child or have him/her in a job that is NOT kid-oriented or in any other way unhealthy to the physical and emotional well being of the child.

That's all.

Let's not repeat the same thing in different ways ;)

yeah. we basically agree on that point. :)

I'd like to combine the 'to catch a predator' thread with with one.

I think if you combined both shows, 'to catch a predator' would get its biggest haul yet.

mapaghimagsik
I'd like to combine the 'to catch a predator' thread with with one.

I think if you combined both shows, 'to catch a predator' would get its biggest haul yet.

Child Beauty Pageants is what those grotty old men watch before they go out to see little Ally.
Who turns out to be a bunch of cops, and lots of TV cameras.

crazyninny

mapaghimagsik
I'd like to combine the 'to catch a predator' thread with with one.

I think if you combined both shows, 'to catch a predator' would get its biggest haul yet.

Child Beauty Pageants is what those grotty old men watch before they go out to see little Ally.
Who turns out to be a bunch of cops, and lots of TV cameras.

I still don't understan the inherent diff between a beauty pageant, child acting and or modeling?

It seems to me that in the latter two a child could also become fucked up if the parents are sending bad messages about the kids self importance to them.
In all three cases if the parents are vigilant the kid will be ok, and just may be able to lift themselves out of poverty as a result.