http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8353598.stm [news.bbc.co.uk]

District Judge Cameron Currie said that the plate violated the First Amendment, which enshrines the separation of church and state.

Huh?!?

Here's the US constitution
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html [law.cornell.edu]

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Here's the evil evil plate number

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Okay, for those of you who don't want to check the link, and because Kyupol only mentions he's extreme opinion on things and never the what or why, here's the deal:

The State of South Carolina offers several variations on their standard state license plates. Whether or not there is an additional fee is not mentioned. One of the variations is of a Crucifix with the phrase, "I believe" on it. There is no alternate form of license plate that endorses any other religion.

Several groups have attacked the South Carolina legislature for offering the plate in the first place, as they feel it violates the separation of Church and State. The article mentions that a judge found that the plate showed an endorsement of the State towards a specific religion. The argument some, apparently such as Kyupol, offer is that allowing the distribution of the plate is simply an allowance of the beliefs of a specific religion, and that disallowing its distribution is a form of condemnation towards a specific religion.

My thought process is that a state-issued item, no matter what it is, should not have any religious affiliation. This includes license plates, birth certificates, Driver's Licenses, Tax Forms, whatever. The problem with doing so is that, if you offer these items for as many as five religions, there are literally hundreds that are left out. This can be seen as a form of preferential treatment.

Personally, I'm of the mind that no religious group should be given special treatment. There's already the issue that anyone who makes their primary income through religious activity (such as a pastor or a rabbi) is exempt from certain taxes. I feel that any religion, even crazy stupid ones, deserve the same treatment. If someone wants to call themselves a Jedi, fine, whatever. Just don't let them use that as an excuse to not pay taxes.

HA!
Good post ink :)

More Libertarian propaganda Kyu... -_-

Give it a rest man. Propaganda is NOT cool, no matter who uses it. Maybe you should start actually posting about actual things your interested in instead of trying to convert people to your libertarian ways eh?

is this even libertarian ?
i dont think so
its just rubish

christians are just ignorant trouble makers , always have been

Kyupol you realy undermine your more valid concerns by crying wolf like this

lothar
is this even libertarian ?
i dont think so

You miss the point man. -_-

None of his posts are "Pro" Libertarian. They're Libertarian propaganda.


It's like Nazi posters about how Jewish people killed Catholics or something. Theyy don't have to have any pro Nazi stuff at all on there, the point is to forward their agenda about how Jews are bad.

The point of this post is to show how the government infringes your rights to do what you believe in. Kyupol isn't making a point in favour of religion, he's making a point against the courts and government. ;)

lothar
Kyupol you realy undermine your more valid concerns by crying wolf like this

I think this is very true. I'm so accustomed to focusing on the obvious flaws in anything Kyupol says that now, if he actually did post something thoroughly researched with an intelligent and well thought out point, I would immediately be skeptical. In fact, it would be great propoganda for all these things he lobbies against to have people like him making the arguments against their ways look foolish.

so are we now saying that kyupol is a misinformation agent?

seventy2
so are we now saying that kyupol is a misinformation agent?

It's too thorough for it to be a single person maintaining the Kyupol misinformation account. It would have to be a group effort... and I guess at least one of them must be able to draw.

Inkmonkey

seventy2
so are we now saying that kyupol is a misinformation agent?

It's too thorough for it to be a single person maintaining the Kyupol misinformation account. It would have to be a group effort... and I guess at least one of them must be able to draw.

It must be the reptilians. They know if they create a fake person that acts really stupid, we're less likely to believe anything they say. Then they make him believe in reptilians, and therefore none of us believe that reptilians exist.

ugh, this forum is becoming way too confusing. Someone start a thread about a dancing gnu or something.

Pineapple
ugh, this forum is becoming way too confusing. Someone start a thread about a dancing gnu or something.

Sadly no one has listened to this AWESOME idea!

Just sharpen up your Occam's razor and you can easily hack kyupol and his thousands of fellow conspiracy types to ribbons.

The government cannot establish support for one religion over another. A Simple lesson in American history. Read "So Help me God" to get an idea about how this works. "What Hath God Wrought" also gives some good background on the process of the seperation of church and state in American History during the important formative years of 1815-1849.

But then if you dare to read you might learn something that upsets your belief system.

Pineapple
ugh, this forum is becoming way too confusing. Someone start a thread about a dancing gnu or something.

I do not think Gnus can dance.

Oh, wait...

you found that, I am quite impressed.

I say let a person get a custom plate if they want to. It doesn't violate the Constitution in any way. A license plate is used to IDENTIFY who a vehicle is owned/registered to/used by, and would therefore be more of a personal endorsement of whatever.

And, FYI, most judges are Masons.. and masonry IS a religion...which includes in its practices a 'ritual' whereby one is absolved of all oaths... Next time you're in court, ask the judge if he is a Mason. If he is, his religion specifically tells him that he does not have to honor his Oath of Office... so much for separation of church and state, huh.

Evil_Hare
I say let a person get a custom plate if they want to. It doesn't violate the Constitution in any way. A license plate is used to IDENTIFY who a vehicle is owned/registered to/used by, and would therefore be more of a personal endorsement of whatever.

And, FYI, most judges are Masons.. and masonry IS a religion...which includes in its practices a 'ritual' whereby one is absolved of all oaths... Next time you're in court, ask the judge if he is a Mason. If he is, his religion specifically tells him that he does not have to honor his Oath of Office... so much for separation of church and state, huh.

I think the problem was that there were only Christain plates and no other religion. It was an ugly ass plate anyway. That kind of thing is for bumper stickers. And yes, before you ask, I think that applies to all the other custom plates.

Besides, the people who parade around going "whee I'm a proud Christain" are the dumbasses who don't even know their own religion, because if they did they'd realize pride is a sin.

Well, I don't know what N Carolina does, but the states I've lived in have a pretty wide variety. The fact remains that activist judges are specifically targeting Christianity. You won't see them do this to a Muslim... you also won't see the media insult Islam in any way...and their religion says the world is FLAT.

Most Christians who openly express their beliefs do not do so out of pride, btw... If you honestly believed that faith in Jesus Christ leads to unconditional love and acceptance from God, as well as eternal life... wouldn't you tell everybody?


I agree the plate was ugly, though, I don't bother with custom plates myself, and I'd have to say a lot of my fellow Christians are dumbasses who are Christian in name only.

Evil_Hare
You won't see them do this to a Muslim...

Because, once again they weren't offering Muslim plates in the first place.

Evil_Hare
you also won't see the media insult Islam in any way

Pundits do it all the time. There's at least one pundit who will insult everything. Nobody in the actual news media will, you're right, but they also won't target anyone else.

Evil_Hare
and their religion says the world is FLAT.

So does Christianity, the Bible says "the four corners of the earth." Now, that's up for interpenetration, and I've seen it said that it's a translation error, but either way most Christians don't believe that. Now, I'm willing to bet that the person who claimed Muslims believe the Earth is flat are ones who just read a similar passage. However, I highly doubt that same person would ever believe any Muslim telling him that it was a translation error or that they don't necessarily believe everything, simply out of their desire for Muslims to be wrong and look stupid. I think you'd have a hard time finding a Muslim who genuinely believes the Earth is flat.

Evil_Hare
If you honestly believed that faith in Jesus Christ leads to unconditional love and acceptance from God, as well as eternal life... wouldn't you tell everybody?

Interesting point. I guess I don't really know how I'd act, but I think if someone told me I was coming off as a little preachy I might stop.

As a child I went to Catholic school, and I was actually the top of the class. And now I'm agnostic and the ones who don't even know who Jonah was are the ones wearing crosses everywhere they go.

Actually, the four corners is a reference to directions, not shape. In the Book of Job, the Bible outright says that the world is round...


Actually, there are hordes of Muslims who will kill you if you tell them the Koran might possibly have any inaccuracies.


The Christians on the other hand will smile and wave as their beliefs are criminalized through the court system.

Evil_Hare
Actually, the four corners is a reference to directions, not shape. In the Book of Job, the Bible outright says that the world is round...

That's my point. Inaccuracy in translation. So why do we just assume that the same thing doesn't apply to any other religion?

Evil_Hare
Actually, there are hordes of Muslims who will kill you if you tell them the Koran might possibly have any inaccuracies.

Maybe. There are certainly more Muslim extremists than Christian extremists, but that's because of third world poverty living. Willing to bet that if the same people were raised Christian and the Muslims had the money and power, the poor and desperate Christians would listen to any jackass with a holy book who promises them salvation through obedience and they get to kill the rich pigs. It's not a matter of what religion you believe in. The beliefs don't mean shit to anybody's motivations. If they did, we'd have Christians who act like Christians. It's just the same old class war that's been going on since the beginning of time because some stupid people can be tricked into killing, and being tricked into thinking it's in the name of God, and causing vast generalizations for whatever religion they think they're advancing because it's a simple effective scapegoat.

Evil_Hare
The Christians on the other hand will smile and wave as their beliefs are criminalized through the court system.

I seem to have missed the commandment "Thou shalt express they faith on thy license plates."

Evil_Hare
Actually, the four corners is a reference to directions, not shape. In the Book of Job, the Bible outright says that the world is round...


Actually, there are hordes of Muslims who will kill you if you tell them the Koran might possibly have any inaccuracies.


The Christians on the other hand will smile and wave as their beliefs are criminalized through the court system.

Oh yeah, because no one has ever been killed by Christians for holding different belief systems.

Inkmonkey

Evil_Hare
Actually, the four corners is a reference to directions, not shape. In the Book of Job, the Bible outright says that the world is round...


Actually, there are hordes of Muslims who will kill you if you tell them the Koran might possibly have any inaccuracies.


The Christians on the other hand will smile and wave as their beliefs are criminalized through the court system.

Oh yeah, because no one has ever been killed by Christians for holding different belief systems.

oh, burn

Everyone go read the Qur'an. Islam says that all that is needed to be known is in the Qur'an which is the actual word of Allah. Period. There are also the interpretations of the words of the Prophet which are also inviolate. Period. There is no discussion about this. It is Allah's will and you are his servant. That's what the word Muslim means. Servant of God.

The liberal interpretations of the Qur'an happened 500 years ago and no Muslim reads them anymore or are barely aware of them. However they can quote long passages of the Qur'an even if Arabic is not their native language and they have no idea what it means.

Current scholarship indicates the Qur'an was not written in the language that everyone has assumed all these years. It was composed in a slightly different dialect from memory several generations after Mohammed died. Talk about room for mistakes. Except it is the inviolate word of God as given to the Prophet. There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his Prophet.

Muslims talk of reversion to Islam when an unbeleiver converts. Know why? Because all humans are born Muslim and are only raised in the other religions becuase they are not exposed to the truth. So every non-Muslim is an apostate and subject to conversion or death. Period. That is Islam faithful to the Qur'an. A liberal Muslim is not faithful to the Qur'an and is like a Protestant was in the 15th Century. A Heretic.

Sorry to make it all so black and white but to Islam it is that black and white Sadly People who say otherwise are fooling themselves and haven't bothered to really read what Islam believes and thinks about itself.

Islam is stuck in the same mind set as the Medieval Catholic Church. If one percent of the world's Muslims are extremists there are 100 million of them. There are only a few thousand Christian Fundmentalists.

bravo1102
Sorry to make it all so black and white but to Islam it is that black and white Sadly People who say otherwise are fooling themselves and haven't bothered to really read what Islam believes and thinks about itself.

Islam is stuck in the same mind set as the Medieval Catholic Church. If one percent of the world's Muslims are extremists there are 100 million of them. There are only a few thousand Christian Fundamentalists.

There are a few million Christian fundamentalists. You forget about people in the South Americas, Africa, The Philippines... Etc. Even if they don't call themselves fundamentalists there are hard-liners with very strict beliefs...
All those famous evil militias full of children who cut off lips, hands and genitals of their victims with names like "God's children" -_-

Your interpretation of Islam is surprising man. o_O
In this part of the world we're just south of the biggest Muslim nation on Earth- Indonesia. Then there's Malaysia right next door to them.
They don't see Islam the way you do. There ARE extremists, but that's a cultural-political thing.

There will always be extremists for one reason or another and they'll always have some stupid excuse for their actions. It's foolish to blame religion when politics is the real driver: people wanting control over other people.This is what drives them, just like it drove the Buddhist Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka (the guys who pioneered suicide bombing), or the Moist terrorists in Nepal and India, or the catholic and protestant terrorists in Ireland, or the Jewish terrorists in what used to be Palestine.

Anyway, Bosnians, Chenchnyans, Ughyrs, Albanians, Turks, Turkemans and all the rest all have their own ways of following their religion. And when they fight it's not part of a global Islamic struggle. No, it's inseparable from local political reasons. Whether that's "Han" Chinese wiping out the Ughyrs identity and stealing their traditional homeland, or Serbians and Croatians Slaughtering Bosnians as part of a 300 year old feud to do with wars the west doesn't even remember anymore... but it's always easier in history to wipe out the intricacies and just lump things into big catagories and made up artificial groups with nice easy pat justifications and motives like "evil Islam"...

I'm a big picture guy. I keep seeing the goal of the Caliphate and a universalism in Islam that doesn't exist in Western faiths anymore. It is that simple when you look at the faith and what the people believe and think about themselves.

A few million fundamentalist Christians (my bad) is nowhere near 100 million strict fundamentalist Muslims. But to compare a typicalChristian evangelical to a tradtional Islamist is disingenuous. That 100 million fanatical Muslims are more like the few thousand extreme Christian Identity Survialists who want to play out the Turner Diaries. Also the Western belief system is more open to questioning things than traditonal Islamic culture is. Evangelical Christianity is far more splintered than Islam can ever hope to be. The fundmental belief in the Qur'an that is nowhere near the fanatical literal interpertation of the Bible. Evagelicals don't talk about going off and slaughtering their neighbors like the ancient Israelites whereas traditional Islam still identifies with that. Again I got my thoughts about Islam from reading their own writings and their interpretations of what they meant, not mine. How people idenitify what they believe themselves is what scares me. How many

Islam is not evil. People use it as an excuse to commit evil acts. I wish Islam could look back to the intellectual Islam of Averroes rather than the emotional Islam of the Sufis.

bravo1102
their own writings

Maybe so, but how many "their own" did you read? Islam, as I've said is made up of so many, many different peoples and they all have their own local cultural ways of thinking about their religion and the way it relates to their daily life.

Those hundreds of millions of Muslims you mention are only alike superficially.

With the idea that they "use it as an excuse to commit evil acts" is again, not the truth, just a convenient way of looking at things. If there weren't the socio-political conditions extant that there are, those conflicts would not exist. But conflicts do, and where people happen to be Muslim we blame their religion and not the actual factors that are the cause of the conflict. It's funny that we always do that.

It's strange that with Hezbollah militants in Lebanon we ascribe their actions to Islamic extremism, then we do the same with Palestinian militants on the West Bank in Israel, and also Taliban in Afghanistan, Kashmir militants fighting against India, the Russians say the same about the Chechens and Ingushetians, and so do the Chinese about the Ughyrs... As if they're all part of one amorphous group.

That's sheer lunacy really. In all cases, always there are specific, local reasons for why these things are happening that are very easy to find out about. There's no hidden history there, it's all open and easy to find. But for some reason we wilfully obscure it all and actively make it look as if their could be no logical reasons.

We in the west loose our brains. We rely on faith to explain things, not rational logic. We say "it's their religion!"
It's not the Muslims who are the crazed nutters who can't see logic or who live in the past. No, it's us. lol!

How embarrassing.

----------------------
We should go up to a Kashmiri Muslim and say "Stop fighting India! It's only your bad religion that makes you do evil things! Become an atheist or a Christian and then you won't want to fight India anymore! There will be peace and beautiful democracy for all! If only you weren't a Muslim..."

And repeat to all other militants in the rest of those countries, changing things to fit the situation.

That's about the size of the Western way of thinking about Islam and conflict in general: pretty F***ing naive.

Watch Afghanistan slip away...

bravo1102
A few million fundamentalist Christians (my bad) is nowhere near 100 million strict fundamentalist Muslims.

Compare weapons and the Christians win anyway.

bravo1102
A few million fundamentalist Christians (my bad) is nowhere near 100 million strict fundamentalist Muslims.

it should be noted that the "100 million" actually consists mostly of people that are fundamentalist muslims because if/when they break from the practice, their leaders will execute them for breaking religious law and committing treason.

the religion tends to favor the radical militants, and rule through violence rather than through compassion. Christianity did it too, right up until the dissidents broke off and formed their own functioning nation and started doing much better than them.

the moral of the story: fight organized religion, and take your beliefs out of the hands of power-hungry morons. you'll only stray from what's right if you listen to people with an agenda tell you what you have to do to be a good person.

bravo1102
Evagelicals don't talk about going off and slaughtering their neighbors like the ancient Israelites whereas traditional Islam still identifies with that.

Some do, my friend. You may have seen those "Pray for Obama" bumper stickers around. If you read the excerpt it mentions, it's actually a thinly veiled death threat against your President. Not to mention the fact that some Christian fundies have voiced their opinion that homosexuals, abortionists, atheists, etc...should be shot or otherwise killed. While they number fewer than Islamic extremists, the fact remains that they support the use of violence and murder to promote their own twisted beliefs.

And anyway, once you get out of the Middle East the odds of meeting a fundamentalist Muslim drops significantly. Depending on where you live, you may encounter a substantial Muslim community, but again, odds are that they aren't like the nutjobs you see in the news.

The simple fact is that over-generalization about any belief is just naive. Yes, they might have a holy book or whatever, but that doesn't mean that every one of the followers believes everything written in it. Religion doesn't prevent people from thinking for themselves.