Firstly, I'll just say I know I haven't been around much for... Well, over 6 months... *ahem* I've decided to pretty much scrap Pictures for now, since I don't like the way it's going, and work on a new short story which should be starting sometime this summer. That aside, I feel this (linky on the boldy) needs to get out to the many people on this site who may be entering the Tokyopop manga contest.

Basically, if you sign that contract you lose all your rights to your work, if someone claims copyright infringement you have to defend yourself and THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE TO PAY YOU. Follow the link for more in-depth detail, the comments are possibly useful also.

I've heard things like this before, but I decided in case anyone here hadn't I should at least let you know. You all work so hard on what you do and I'd hate to see any of you screwed over.

(If this has been brought up before I apologise, and if this is in the wrong forum I apologise also - when I saw this I immediately thought of the people here and wanted to get this out as quickly as possible. - Thanks for moving this, wasn't sure where it belonged.)

(Edited for linkage.)

(Other edit - from reading the comments it would appear this is not the Rising Stars contest? Hmm... Will add details as necessary so as not to be unduly worrying, but just as worrying as I should be.)

(Edited to include another link .)

Yeah, pretty much any publisher that offers contract deals as contests are always pretty fishy to me. At least Zuda offers to pay regular page rates, but that whole, "make the entire comic first, sign this contract, and then we might consider it" thing is hella shadey.

Your better off submitting to popular independent anthology's and self publishing.

What makes it so bad is that they're praying on young,unsuspecting talent in the hope that they won't notice that they're being fucked.

Bryan Lee O'Malley (creator of Scott Pigrim)has a rant out against this, stating how horrible this contract is.

Yeah at this point it's pretty much common knowledge that the contest is shit. I would enter anyway though with an idea you aren't particularly fond of, but are willing to put effort in. If you make it into the book, it looks amazing in a portfolio. Other than that, don't bank on great amazing things to come from it.

I've shown this to about five or six different people who nearly went with tokyopop. Hopefully, with this deal being made so aware, they'll start to lose good support until they decide to redo the contract.

Until then I think I'd prefer to look elsewhere for a publisher

You know, there's another side to this stuff:

What other routes have you got to publishing with decent exposure? You could submit your work to all the publishers you know and hope beyond hope for the best, the way thousands do all the time. You could make your stuff so popular like Penny Arcade or something that publishers would be silly to ignore it. And... What else?
I can't think of anything. Maybe you can... not me :(

These contests might be tricky about your rights and things, but it's a trade off: It's a much easier route to published work with reasonable exposure.
You don't have to give away your baby, or even you least favourite knick-knack, just do anything.

Even if you don't get any money out of it, in the end you will have published work to show, and that's a foot in the door that might make it a teeny, weeny bit easier when you try the much harder traditional route.

ozoneocean
What other What other routes have you got to publishing with decent exposure? You could submit your work to all the publishers you know and hope beyond hope for the best, the way thousands do all the time. You could make your stuff so popular like Penny Arcade or something that publishers would be silly to ignore it. And... What else?
You don't have to give away your baby, or even you least favourite knick-knack, just do anything.

The problem is that it's your baby that they want.
Publishers like Tokyopop don't take just anything, that's why it's so hard to get picked up by a major publisher. They want your best work, the comic you spent 5 years working on, not the 24 pages you did for fun over the weekend.

Not only do they want your baby, but they want you to sign a contract that gives them almost all the credit for creating it! How much exposure do you get when they decide not to put your name on your book for whatever reason?

Think about all your favorite current comicbook artists and then think about how many of them got to where they are today because they won a contest. Not a lot. They had to slowly build their exposure from the ground up. They got to where they are because they stood out from the crowd and grinded their asses off. But even being at the top of your class isn't enough, going to cons and networking, meeting the right people are all ways to gain exposure, because above all things, it's not what you know, it's who you know.

Brandon Graham has a real contract with tokyopop where he keeps all his rights, and get's paid enough to make a living off of just making comics, mostly because he is good friends with Becky Cloonan, and she recommended him to tokyopop.

That totally ignores my point. Tokyopop don't "want" anything. In that respect. They want good work to market.

If you want to publish work the easy route, then work away and develop a good submission, NOT your core ideas or an idea you really care about, just good work that you think will have a chance.

Jebus...

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Building success from the ground up, blah, blah, blah.
Look, you can do that too.. whatever. It's harder.

Many people in many industries since the concept of industry began have offered routes to success through contests. And many times those contests don't provide much at all in themselves, often you're left poorer, BUT just the act of winning them or getting your stuff out there BECAUSE of them enables you to go further and do more things that you would have to work a lot harder to get otherwise.

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Look at cities that bid to hold the Olympic games- (that's a big, bold extravagant example). Almost always they end up loosing hundreds of millions on it. And they're left with big stadia that no one will ever fully use again, heaps of public infrastructures that are useless... But the prestige and the increased awareness in the public mind about that city as a result gets them millions of tourists for decades.
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As I say, this is as old as time... In the past craftsmen put thousands of hours of work and and their own resources into making beautiful and clever work for ruling royal families. In every case that left them completely out of pocket, that stuff was given away... But the thing is, if they managed to sufficiently impress, they got the royal stamp, "made by appointment".
The act of getting that was bad for them in the short term, but WITH it, suddenly everyone wants to buy from them because they have that royal cache.
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Let people choose their own routes to success. And please, please, you should never give away stuff that means a lot to you anyway. If people do, it is totally their OWN stupid fault and may they burn with arse pain because of it. :)

A pox on them! ^__^

Question: What other respectable publisher takes amatuer works seriously, let alone Manga made by english speakers?

Daiconv
The problem is that it's your baby that they want.
Publishers like Tokyopop don't take just anything, that's why it's so hard to get picked up by a major publisher. They want your best work, the comic you spent 5 years working on, not the 24 pages you did for fun over the weekend.

This is how I've always viewed these "contest" type routes into publishing. It's not just Tokyo Pop, it also applies to the contracts offered by the likes of Platinum and now Zuda.

Ozone is right up to a point. You can keep your pet project(s) back and only submit ideas that don't mean very much to you. But Daiconv's point is also spot on - if you do, your chances of winning anything are so low, what's the point?

But it isn't just the "contest" format that's at fault. The contracts being offered are not so different to those you'd get if you submitted in the usual way and were lucky enough to be accepted. It's a fact of life that comics publishers have always operated in a way which - compared to other forms of publishing - is basically unethical. The likes of Tokyo Pop, Platinum and Zuda can get away with stripping creators of most of their rights because a contract with DC or Marvel would be even worse!

The only way to publish and keep control of your own creation is to self-publish. As Ozone says, it won't get you much publicity, it's very unlikely to raise your profile in the industry and it almost certainly won't make you any money. But you will keep your rights, remain free to do your comic the way you want and have complete controlover it. That's the trade-off every comic creator has to live with, whether they choose to enter competitions or not.

ozoneocean
Building success from the ground up, blah, blah, blah.
Look, you can do that too.. whatever. It's harder.

I don't see how it's that much harder than applying for some impossible contest than it is submitting to independent publishers that will print, distribute, and buy you a isbn number for diamond distribution, and give you 700 complementary copies of your book.

I'm sorry, but the whole idea that being published by tokyopop will open all these doors, and that it will be "easier" is unrealistic to me.

Plus, I just don't trust TP based on their weird casual contract where they say things like, "...but you're ok with that." and that thing about the french, wtf? If they are serious about doing business, then their contract should reflect that.

ozoneocean
Many people in many industries since the concept of industry began have offered routes to success through contests. And many times those contests don't provide much at all in themselves, often you're left poorer, BUT just the act of winning them or getting your stuff out there BECAUSE of them enables you to go further and do more things that you would have to work a lot harder to get otherwise.

Becoming successful by winning a contest is definately possible, but it's very rare, because winning a contest still doesn't guarantee anything.

I'm not trying to sound like a know it all or anything, these are all just my thoughts and opinions on graphic art contests in general. If somebody from drunkduck won that TP contest, and were happy with the results, then I guess in the end that's all that matters. Everybody's definition of success is different.

ozoneocean
You know, there's another side to this stuff:

What other routes have you got to publishing with decent exposure? You could submit your work to all the publishers you know and hope beyond hope for the best, the way thousands do all the time. You could make your stuff so popular like Penny Arcade or something that publishers would be silly to ignore it. And... What else?
I can't think of anything. Maybe you can... not me :(

These contests might be tricky about your rights and things, but it's a trade off: It's a much easier route to published work with reasonable exposure.
You don't have to give away your baby, or even you least favourite knick-knack, just do anything.

Even if you don't get any money out of it, in the end you will have published work to show, and that's a foot in the door that might make it a teeny, weeny bit easier when you try the much harder traditional route.

Some people don't want to be muscled out of their own projects, replaced with someone who can "do it better" and not get paid. Frankly I don't see how that logic is unreasonable. Besides, the likelihood of seeking out and finding a different publisher and signing a contract made just for you is a bit harder, but will ensure your property rights just a little bit more than a pre-made contract that people already are aware says "your stuff becomes ours".

HA! Even if you DO get your work out there and published in some other way you can STILL get screwed out of your rights, money, and have the work taken over by someone else.

It's YOUR OWN responsibility to protect your baby.
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Daiconv
Of course contests are an easier route. Ever read about the submission process? It's chilling... Publishers get hundreds and thousands of submissions across their desks all the time. In many cases a lot end up straight in the rubbish bin without even being looked at. And for the ones that do get opened it takes them ages to go through them all and get back to the submitters, if they ever do.
And it also costs a bit to print out and send work to places... And many places have very different and specific guidelines. Think about tailoring your submissions to each and every one of those and still not having it accepted... or even seen.

With a contest you've got more chance that your work will be looked at and dealt with by a certain time (no waiting around forever for something that doesn't come). The whole process is ostensibly more transparent.

With the contracts-
1. DON'T GIVE AWAY your baby.
2. Read it and see if it's right for you. If not, then it's not :)

No use to go ranting about how it's all so unfair.

Someone
HA! Even if you DO get your work out there and published in some other way you can STILL get screwed out of your rights, money, and have the work taken over by someone else.

It's YOUR OWN responsibility to protect your baby.

It would be really fantastic of you to bother reading any of my posts. All I ask is that you take some time to comprehend them as opposed to being the ever overly trustworthy dolt we've all come to "love".

The point is, if you want to "protect your baby" don't go with Tokyopop, they have a history of screwing people, open and shut. Yes you can get your wares ripped from anyone else, but it's the difference between taking a chance and just tossing it away all in the name of "fame".

There is use in ranting about how it is unfair, because frankly it is. It's YOUR idea, you put the time and effort into making it. Tokyopop from the get-go says that whatever you send them is now theirs. You can LOSE and they can still profit from your idea. Jip you out of the notoriety and prizes while they cash in. I believe the point of all this ranting is that no one in their right mind should enter into such a binding contract unless they are ready and willing to take the risks involved. However, from a moral standpoint, is is unfair and it's a wonder they continue to profit.

Someone
With a contest you've got more chance that your work will be looked at and dealt with by a certain time (no waiting around forever for something that doesn't come).

I don't think you quite get this whole comic book thing. It will get looked at, but that doesn't do you a lick of good if you have to sign a contract before it's looked at. At least with showing your product, you can copyright the idea before it's submitted to a publisher. Ergo, they can't deny it and then just take your idea after. In a contest it's different. They can take what you sent in and say it's theirs, because in the submission form you fill out you agree that they can do whatever with that property since your signature validates that it is not currently published, copyrighted, or in form someplace else.

"protect your baby", huh?

A little advice: protect it like any parent who is not Micheal Jackson. Entering one of these contests is the equivalent of being a negligent parent and dangling your kid out a window, just so it can be seen.

Skullbie
Question: What other respectable publisher takes amatuer works seriously, let alone Manga made by english speakers?

Absolutely nobody. There is not a single company in comics with "you" in mind.

If you want to break into the industry just to get YOUR comic out there, and retain your rights or at least most of them, the best thing to do is to build your portfolio and try to just get a job in comics. As a receptionist, a freelance colorist, inker, fuck anything. That industry is all about working the ladder.

The key to success is not being an idiot. And an idiot's first line of thought will be "gee wiz, this company sure does want to help me!".

Um, a little slow today man?

I think you totally missed the point in an effort to try and once again push your own position.

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You can't lose the rights to your baby if you DO NOT submit it in the contest in the first place. Which I said you should not do, every time I posted. Jebus, how simple could it be?
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People should stop being babies and look at things sensibly. Read the damn contracts, go through them with a lawyer if you have to and simply do not sign them if you don't like them.

If you DO like them, submit the product you want. It DOES NOT HAVE TO BE your fave idea ok? If you're any good at all at comic making then you can think up a good idea, produce that and submit it.
-Who gives a crap what they do with it after? You read the contract so you know what's what, and you give them the stuff.

Now please stop being little babies. I'll have to spank you with my beard.

ozoneocean
Um, a little slow today man?

I think you totally missed the point in an effort to try and once again push your own position.

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You can't lose the rights to your baby if you DO NOT submit it in the contest in the first place. Which I said you should not do, every time I posted. Jebus, how simple could it be?
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People should stop being babies and look at things sensibly. Read the damn contracts, go through them with a lawyer if you have to and simply do not sign them if you don't like them.

If you DO like them, submit the product you want. It DOES NOT HAVE TO BE your fave idea ok? If you're any good at all at comic making then you can think up a good idea, produce that and submit it.
-Who gives a crap what they do with it after? You read the contract so you know what's what, and you give them the stuff.

Now please stop being little babies. I'll have to spank you with my beard.

I disagree and you are fat.

Skullbie
Um excuse me, wtf r u guize doin?

OK, clean up time...
...there. Done.
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Disagreements are fine. Feel free.

ozoneocean

Skullbie
Um excuse me, wtf r u guize doin?

OK, clean up time...
...there. Done.
---------------------------

Disagreements are fine. Feel free.

I agree that you're fat though.

Skullbie
Question: What other respectable publisher takes amatuer works seriously, let alone Manga made by english speakers?

Um...image comics comes to mind. You're going to have to go with an indie publishers...if you count Scott Pilgrim then Oni too.

Wouldn't a contract between Marvel and or DC be different because well those publishers are all about franchises and marketing when compared to someone like Image. I see it as when you create someone for Marvel not only do you use the character but pretty much everyone else does so too. The characters will most likely live on after your run. These characters are corporate mascot. I mean I could talk about how much I love the Captain America book by Brubaker or Ultimate Spider-man by Bendis but in the end those characters represent Marvel rather than the writers. 10 years from now Captain America will be kind of different than the way they are now and I don't mean in character development. However I think the creators at Vertigo should keep their rights to the projects. These series stand by themselves normally and live and breathe because of certain creators.