1. Battle Transitions.
These things are old and stupid, and shouldn't be around now consols have the spare RAM to load everything you need for a battle without a 3-4 second pause. Besides which, nothing destroys suspension of disbelief like a crazy effect to make sure you know you should be fighting now.

2. Battle Music
Especialy when I have to listen to the same battle theme for the entire game. God it gets so OLD. Even some boss battle music. In my oppinion, RPG's should make like Metal Gear Solid. Make battle music an upbeat remix of the field music. Hell, write the synthasising script from scratch and have the music change as the tide of the battle changes.

3. Random Encounters
Luckily, this is already changing. Again, it trashes the suspension of disbelife when enemy appear out of NOWHERE to attack you. Then you have this great thing where your going back to an old area when you so amazing you can 1 hit everything, and have hours of time wasted watching your characters kill stuff that can't fight back. That isn't gameplay.
Instead of having, say 2000 encounters of hitting "attack" untill the enemy dies and healing after. Have 500 that are as intense and as much hard work as fighting a boss character

4. Characters Standing Still
Grandia, Secret of Mana, Kingdom Hearts and Wild Arms see all your characters moving around the battlefield. It LOOKS so much more like a real skirmish when all the characters are moving around on the battlefield. Makes for more intresting battles too. After you've seen that, seeing characters stand still, run up and bash the enemy and run back to the EXACT SAME SPOT looks so retarded.

5. Levels.
Oh yeah, this is going to upset the power gamers. I want an RPG where you can't just level up against weak enemies untill you can kill everything that gets in your way. If fact, just forget incrimental stats all together. Hitting an enemy with 10hp with 1 damage per attack as opposed to one with 100 for 10 damage is STILL THE SAME THING. Even if the attack looks prettier. Stop making life easy for people who don't want to work an use the tools they've been given efficiantly.

6. Battles ruled by HP count.
I've not come across an RPG yet that doesn't make bosses tough by giving them LOTS OF HP!. It's a cheap way of stretching a battle out and trying to exaust the players resources. Enemies should have better AI and battles should be balanced so players have to out think, rather than outgun thier opponent.

7. Dungeons.
At least, the traditional view of a dungeon, where your sucsess is measured on if you brought enough items, had enough hp, the right magic to win. Sucsess should be measured by player skill, not by how much GP they saved up to spend on equipment. Whilst we're at it, lets get rid of treasure chests too.

8. Fixed/Forced Character Classes.
I want to configure my party the way I like it. You should never be forced into having to use a particuler type of character in a certain situation.

You're naming reasons why I don't play RPGs anymore. The genre has become so stagnant because of these things that developers think are necessary.

I don't see the problem with the concept of a fixed character class if that's the engine the game is built on. Some games part of the challenge is effectively balancing your team, and if any character can do anything then acquiring any team larger than 3 (or 4, or whatever your party size is in a game) is pointless. I remember in Final Fantasy 7 once you got enough materia any character was practically as good as another, so your choice of party was entirely based on aesthetics.

How about the relatively generic storylines that always come along with rpgs?

...probably because you always need to meet people, form a party, travel, and somehow save the world.

First of all, Titch, there aren't any games in this world that are going to fully satisfy your craving for realism. Not while you've still only got a mere 12 or so buttons with which to perform every action under the sun with. The only way you'll be completely happy and without complaint is when you cannot tell the difference between being in the game and being in reality.

For those of us who, perhaps, enjoy being able to make this distinction. We all know the real reason people play roleplaying games. RPG fans know that there's one thing that they can get in an RPG that you can't ever find in good quantity in any other game. A thrilling, evolving, everchanging story. We don't play RPG's because of the battle or levelling systems. Those are just tools to help us get better acquanted with the characters through seeing them often.

If we should be complaining about RPGs, let us complain about how the storywriting is going downhill.

Ronin
First of all, Titch, there aren't any games in this world that are going to fully satisfy your craving for realism. Not while you've still only got a mere 12 or so buttons with which to perform every action under the sun with. The only way you'll be completely happy and without complaint is when you cannot tell the difference between being in the game and being in reality.

For those of us who, perhaps, enjoy being able to make this distinction. We all know the real reason people play role-playing games. RPG fans know that there's one thing that they can get in an RPG that you can't ever find in good quantity in any other game. A thrilling, evolving, everchanging story. We don't play RPG's because of the battle or leveling systems. Those are just tools to help us get better acquainted with the characters through seeing them often.

If we should be complaining about RPGs, let us complain about how the story writing is going downhill.

Agreed. I'm with ronin on this one. I'm an rpg freak of sorts, and I couldn't care less about the battles..... I like the interactivity with the story and the world where you get to make choices and see what happens.

you did make some good points though, Titch.
some battle screen transitions in some certain games are SO annoying as fuck. some of those just seems to kill my eyes so much! or when they TAKE forever to get you right to the battle...
and I know the battle system cannot be THAT complex because I've seen the same exact kind of system and menus in another game where there was no super-long battle screen transitions!

and I just hate it when some writers aren't just creative about the plots and stuff.
Growslanser Generations is a good example of GOOD writing. it's not "saving the world", it's all about trying to prevent an world war between two countries in this fantasy world... full of political backstabbing, etc. the characters are believable in both thier background and the way they react to things. they're not in clitched classes or anything. they're just simply people who has certain skills and stuff like that.


As for Random battles, I think it makes sense. I mean, if you're living in an world where almost everyone has to carry at least a weapon when they go out of towns or even being in towns, then it's a pretty dangerous world.
in anicent times of this reality, it was pretty easy for people to get away with crimes that was commited. after all, no video cameras to record your face and movements, no fingerprinting, etc. so crimminals were pretty bold in attacking more people if it meant loot, etc.
so why not in an fantasy world? they could be just making an living by staking out by roadsides and stuff to attack random people.

also, when you venture into the wild, there's wild animals that'd love to have you for lunch.

the only part of it that I don't like at times is when you're in an area and you don't see anything around and then it's BAM! battlle time!
I like it better when you see animals and stuff like that in the area.

I mean, you talk about suspension of disbelief and that random battle encounters ruin that - but your disbelief is already suspended by playing a video game.

I agree with Aurora_Moon and Ronin on this - as someone who is, pretty much strictly an RP gamer, that levelling up and such, meh. It's just a means to an end and doesn't really bother me all that much.

I, personally, would hate it if the battle music were a remix of the overworld music - I'm already hearing the overworld music through a good 75% of the game anyway, why would I want the fighting music to be a variation on that?

All I'm interested in is playing out a good story - which, as Aurora_Moon has pointed out, are becoming increasingly hard to find as game makers seem to be clutching on desperatly to the formulas that made Final Fantasy, SoM, and Chrono Trigger so popular, back in the day.

However, advances are definatly being made - have you played KotOR and/or KotOR II?
KotOR is absolutely amazing - there's wonderful character development, and a plot twist which makes sense once you hear it. Not to mention the ability to choose how you play your character - light side or dark side... the endings are kinda crap (except the one they left out which, if you play on the computer, you can download and integrate into the game) but the gameplay experience is great.
Same goes for KotOR II - You really get into the head of the character, and can choose how you play it. Of course there was a lot of content left out because it was rushed, but yeah...

Anyway, yes... things are being done in the genre to make it better and more role play-y...

*ahem*

I'm not too much impressed by the story in a lot of these games, but I enjoy the strategy element that's required when arranging a team, choosing which weapons to use, deciding which attack to use in battle, etc., etc.. I agree that it would be nice if the battle setting was a bit more "alive", but I find a value in the gameplay itself that apparently no one else does.

but I enjoy the strategy element that's required when arranging a team, choosing which weapons to use, deciding which attack to use in battle, etc., etc.. I agree that it would be nice if the battle setting was a bit more "alive", but I find a value in the gameplay itself that apparently no one else does.

You mean like when you know you're going up against a boss, and you make sure that there's a healer and back up healer, enough life-restoring items to make you're tertiary healer useful, someone who can deal melee damage, someone who can induce statis effects - perhaps even somone who can induce a statis effect while giving melee damage - and your team is like clockwork?

There is a beauty in that, one often overlooked.

equinox
I'd like RPGs to feature more actual role-playing. Key word: PLAYING! As in, I actually get to PLAY the game. As opposed to WATCHING it all day.

*cough*
star ocean: end of time. *cough*

the SNES star ocean games and that one ps1 star ocean: third story was so much better... but the end of time was more like a movie.

actually, it was more like a fourth game of the Star ocean series, but yeah.

I agree that the main draw to an RPG is its story, but the way things are going, they're all becoming the same general story with an angsty main character, at least two required plot twists, world saving, mystical elements like crystals or materia, and contrived religious references. Yeah, there's exceptions. But not enough. I'm with Inkmonkey and believe that it's the strategy brainwork that keeps the games fun, and even that's starting to fade. "Use fire on the ice monster". RPGs need to work in some new concepts and mechanics to make us discover new strategies.

I don't see the problem with the concept of a fixed character class if that's the engine the game is built on.

I can deal with it, but I really don't like it when my hand is forced into using a particuler combonation of characters. I want the option of having charcters I enjoy watching, even if it means some compromise in combat. FF10, IMHO had one of the best character setups, especialy with the expert sphere grid on. Every character had a role in the party, but every roll could be modified to suit your needs in battle.

First of all, Titch, there aren't any games in this world that are going to fully satisfy your craving for realism.

I said "looks like a real skirmish" not once did I mention "realism". You loose 10 bajillion points for not paying attention. I find it particulerly insulting because I'm a major advocate against more "realistic" games. What I want is RPG's that more fun and intuitive all the time. I don't want to slog through dungeons, random battles, bosses and all that trash. I want to have FUN doing it.

A thrilling, evolving, everchanging story. We don't play RPG's because of the battle or levelling systems. Those are just tools to help us get better acquanted with the characters through seeing them often.

No. This is a terrible mentaility. Just because a game has a good story doesn't excuse bad gameplay. Ever. If somone wants to write a story and isn't intrested in the playable element it should be a movie. MGS2/3 had a good story and good gameplay, so did Legacy of Kain. RPG's are not magicaly exempt from this.

Growslanser Generations is a good example of GOOD writing. it's not "saving the world"

I was going to go on to complaining about epic plots next. Every RPG seems to be about saving the world these days. I call lazyness on this too, it's much harder to make the player care about something trivial. I acctualy played a really good amature RPG about a man who looses all his money in the stock market crash and you have to help him get back on his feet in one game month.

Then there was A Blurred Line, which has an even cooler take. At the begging of the game you see the main character crash a colony into earth. Then you go back a month in time and see how he moved from his day job, to killing millions of innocent people. You already know how the story ends, it's about seeing how a character develops.

I mean, you talk about suspension of disbelief and that random battle encounters ruin that - but your disbelief is already suspended by playing a video game.

*snip snip*

I agree with Aurora_Moon and Ronin on this - as someone who is, pretty much strictly an RP gamer, that levelling up and such, meh. It's just a means to an end and doesn't really bother me all that much.

Wikipedia
Suspension of disbelief is a do ut des: the audience agrees to provisionally suspend their judgment in exchange for the promise of entertainment.

If random battles aren't entertaining, I don't think players should be expected to suspend disbelief for them. If they where all as intense as boss battles, rather than just hitting the enemy till it dies and then burning up resources after to fix the damage; then yes, I might be willing to let it go. Frankly though, with todays technology it's perfectly possible to have enemies visible in the enviroment.

Chrono Cross was the best of both worlds in that respect. Enemys where visable (hell, because of the leveling system, you didn't even have to take part in more than a handfull of encounters per character) and battles where intense and fun.

I'm not too much impressed by the story in a lot of these games, but I enjoy the strategy element that's required when arranging a team, choosing which weapons to use, deciding which attack to use in battle, etc., etc..

Yeah, I like it. But it should be tempered with a level of forced ad-hoc adaptability. Working out a meathod to blow the enemy away is all well and good, but I don't want to be getting away with using it for the entire game. IMHO the one thing that trumps that is when you can pull off something tacticaly in a battle that turns the tide; rather than dying, re-loading and adjusting my party configuration to what the "game" forces me to have to beat the boss.

I am still sick of being stopped by a 3 foot high mound of rocks/rubble despite the fact my characters are either magic or extremeley skilled athletes.

Mimarin
I am still sick of being stopped by a 3 foot high mound of rocks/rubble despite the fact my characters are either magic or extremeley skilled athletes.

Double-ditto on that. Of course, I apply that rule to any video game I've ever played with arbitrary boundaries.

Mimarin
I am still sick of being stopped by a 3 foot high mound of rocks/rubble despite the fact my characters are either magic or extremeley skilled athletes.

*cough* Dirge of the Cerberus *cough*

The only RPG I've ever played where I could jump was xenogears

and I could never sit through the entire half-hour of dialogue they had during one particularly ridiculous cut-scene

Xenogears inspired this particuler rant. Great story, terrible gameplay.

Time for me to enter in this conversation, I guess.

1. Battle Transitions.
These things are old and stupid, and shouldn't be around now consols have the spare RAM to load everything you need for a battle without a 3-4 second pause. Besides which, nothing destroys suspension of disbelief like a crazy effect to make sure you know you should be fighting now.

Total Agree. Star Ocean 'Till the end of time's burned my eyes completely. And I hate it when there's a loading before and after the battle.

2. Battle Music
Especialy when I have to listen to the same battle theme for the entire game. God it gets so OLD. Even some boss battle music. In my oppinion, RPG's should make like Metal Gear Solid. Make battle music an upbeat remix of the field music. Hell, write the synthasising script from scratch and have the music change as the tide of the battle changes.

Yup. Hearing the same thing again and again isn't quite appreciable.

. Random Encounters
Luckily, this is already changing. Again, it trashes the suspension of disbelife when enemy appear out of NOWHERE to attack you. Then you have this great thing where your going back to an old area when you so amazing you can 1 hit everything, and have hours of time wasted watching your characters kill stuff that can't fight back. That isn't gameplay.

I don't know if disagreeing or not. I know that old games like Chrono Trigger could evade these, but there were some like Final Fantasy where it made mure moch sense than finding a single enemy and having to fight 6 at a time. Yet, it's bad to see that there's nothing near and having to fight enemies that appear from nowhere on the new games, since the scenary looks empty.

4. Characters Standing Still
Grandia, Secret of Mana, Kingdom Hearts and Wild Arms see all your characters moving around the battlefield. It LOOKS so much more like a real skirmish when all the characters are moving around on the battlefield. Makes for more intresting battles too. After you've seen that, seeing characters stand still, run up and bash the enemy and run back to the EXACT SAME SPOT looks so retarded.

I know. KH have a good system, and other games doesn't have that one. But, if you ask me, I like it that way. And having to wait for a turn isn't so bad. I consider that classic. At least it let's me appreciate fully the special attacks and such, and to think on a better strategy than running away again and again madly because I'm low on HP.

5. Levels.
Oh yeah, this is going to upset the power gamers. I want an RPG where you can't just level up against weak enemies untill you can kill everything that gets in your way. If fact, just forget incrimental stats all together. Hitting an enemy with 10hp with 1 damage per attack as opposed to one with 100 for 10 damage is STILL THE SAME THING. Even if the attack looks prettier. Stop making life easy for people who don't want to work an use the tools they've been given efficiantly.

The fact that a person that have difficulties killing rats and then can easily kill 20 meter tall golems is weird, but I like it that way. it show improvement. And I don't like to stick to weaklings all the game.

6. Battles ruled by HP count.
I've not come across an RPG yet that doesn't make bosses tough by giving them LOTS OF HP!. It's a cheap way of stretching a battle out and trying to exaust the players resources. Enemies should have better AI and battles should be balanced so players have to out think, rather than outgun thier opponent.

Sephirot from KH/KHII. Way too cheap. Lots of Hp, and way strong. I hate that too. For example, in fighting games (Specially Marvel Vs Capcom, where the last boss was Onslaught). There, you fight a person with similar Hp, but way strong. And only attacking won't defeat him at all. You have to think which attacks to use and time your jumps to evade attacks... sadly, the SNK Boss syndrome that can be found on SNK games (duh) is horrible (All SNK's fighting game's bosses are ubberstrong. I have never defeated anyone, and my brother rarely does... when the opponent starts with 1/3 of it's life.

7. Dungeons.
At least, the traditional view of a dungeon, where your sucsess is measured on if you brought enough items, had enough hp, the right magic to win. Sucsess should be measured by player skill, not by how much GP they saved up to spend on equipment. Whilst we're at it, lets get rid of treasure chests too.

Yeah. I agree. In Chrono Trigger, there's a part where your tools, weapons and such are stolen and you have to find them in order to escape a ship. It was interesting. But in Pokemon... potions, ropes, everything you can get from the Pokemart is what you need to survive.

8. Fixed/Forced Character Classes.
I want to configure my party the way I like it. You should never be forced into having to use a particuler type of character in a certain situation.

Well, I don't really like changing my character's classes. I like them the way they are (some game exceptions would be Final Fantasy Tactics advance, but it's more a strategy game)

Other things tht annoys me is the fact that you can't jump a fence and the exit is being blocked by a guy who is just standing there for the lulz. That, or the story line where you have to rescue a girl or someone that you just met, the main character's living place is destroyed or someone tries to rule/destroy the world. Basically, all cliches mentioned on wikipedia.

Yet, I like many old things in RPGs. Let me say this. My third favorite RPG is Fable: Lost Chapters. The second one is Kingdom Hearts II. And, the best of the best for me, believe it or not, is Chrono Trigger. Why? it's story line, it's battle system, it's characters and it's look. Yes, classical helipcopter view, returning to your place after attacking, and not the most original story line. But in it's time, it was more original. The maps, the places, the people, the twists. All of that made me love that game. And the multiple endings. Not every game have that, does it? Fable have only 2 endings, and Kingdom Hearts II have one. Also, I loved the soundtracks and such.

Yes, when I play an RPG I never look for perfect things, I prefer to get used to it's gameplay to have a better time when looking at it's storyline, since that the RPG's heart.

I know. KH have a good system, and other games doesn't have that one. But, if you ask me, I like it that way. And having to wait for a turn isn't so bad. I consider that classic. At least it let's me appreciate fully the special attacks and such, and to think on a better strategy than running away again and again madly because I'm low on HP.

Your confusing two differant mechanics here. I acctauly have nothing against turn based battle systems, provided they have enough unmarked variables to force the player to "guestimate" things. Thats one of the reasons I liked the Grandia system, you had to watch combat in progress to try and guess the best timing for your attacks. As you became a better judge of how fast the characters and enemys moved around the Act-Com circle, the more you could dominate the enemy by cancling thier attacks at the last minute. That takes skill. As opposed to using Analyze, and then pounding the enemy with it's weak element.

Anyway, I'm meandering away from the issue. The point is, seeing characters acctualy run around during a fight, even if it pauses whilst you choose commands, looks way better than when they stand in one spot, run up, wack the enemy and run away. Adds options for a more tatical battle system to.

Titch
The point is, seeing characters acctualy run around during a fight, even if it pauses whilst you choose commands, looks way better than when they stand in one spot, run up, wack the enemy and run away. Adds options for a more tatical battle system to.

Well, that's true. That's the main reason I liked Quest 64. It was your turn, you moved a bit, attacked, and at the end you were on a different position. And you could still move during you opponent's turn to evade attacks.

forgive me for saying this, I liked KOTOR simply because of all the customization in it. (even though everyone went two-weapon fighitng and maxing Flurry or Powerstrike immedietly) So I agree, no forced classes, and if people would stretch their minds a bit they'd be able to make great stories, or at least make so new ideas so I don't want to vomit every time.
Some RPG's I can't even play all the way through anymore.
also I'd like less dexterity challengers and more brain teasers. y'know what I mean?

Eh, there are plenty RPGs that deter from this HP trend. Valkyrie Profile is one of them, but I forget other names, though. You play too much Kingdom Hearts. =P

Acctualy, I found KH boss battles to be quite the opposite, unbalanced in the sense that bosses could one hit you far too easily, rather than you running out of resources before the battle was over.

The game that inspired this rant was acctualy Xenosaga. My lady friend was playing 3 and I asked her to lend me 1. I found myself incridbly frustrated by the awesome storytelling wasted on absolutly abysmal design.

Anyway, no random fighting would diminish the strategy factor as well as fun factor.

I was talking more in a sense of the invisible enemy encounter, like you have an encounter after X number of steps, rather than having to walk up and be touched by an enemy. A skilled player can avoid random encounters by leading the enemy off and ducking around them, or using the enviroment to gain a tatical advantage when the battle starts.

The problem is, most RPG's don't give you the option of going through the entire dungeon without fighting anything, because come bosstime, your not a high enough level, because you haven't fought enough random battles. Which is really cheap, when you think about it. It's pretty much stating "You have to take part in 20 boring repative battles for ever 1 exciting intresting one"

So dump all the boring battles. Design and balance every battle situation to force the player to adapt to the battle situation, give them a decent chance to react; but offer rewards for quick adaption to enemy tatics; rather than death due to failer to move fast enough. Have say, 5-6 of those per dungeon, rather than 30-40 random encounters of pointless smacking the enemy followed by healing after the battle.

The only RPG I play is Pokemon. Dragon Warrior Monsters on the GBC was pretty good too. But I can't play them on a consol. It's just too boring.