isukun

Yup, but Greek kirtles are almost always folded linen, even when they're wearing a full bronze bell cuirass

Except they didn't typically wear them with armor.

Of course they did.
There are a number of stylised representations of warriors fighting with no pants or kilts at all, or even just a helmet and nothing else! ...but these are typically artistic licence because the Greeks exulted the shape of the bare male body and genitalia as symbols of vigour, masculinity, and power. You can see a lot of imagery of warriors in full battle regalia.

Overall it depends on the culture though, since Ancient Greece was made up of many different groups sharing a common language (like most ancient countries) and all had their own peculiarities, fighting styles, armour styles etc.

I'm no talking about the stylized versions. Warriors did not tend to wear full dress under their armor, it would have been too stifling. Ancient Greek armor was already hot and uncomfortable without added layers. Some armors were built upon a linen tunic or were worn over a light tunic, but typially only the gods are depicted wearing full dress AND armor.

I think the show is going to be a complete failure, like that Bionic woman reboot a few years back. I will admit though, she does look pretty F'in hot!

isukun
I'm no talking about the stylized versions. Warriors did not tend to wear full dress under their armor, it would have been too stifling.

A kirtle isn't full dress. I was using the word to describe their kilt-like garment since that is the word I'd seen used for such things in older texts.
Dictionary descriptions of the word describe "kirtle" as a short, shapeless under-dress for women (no waste sewn in), or as an obsolete term for a tunic for men... And that pretty much fits too- they'd have a short garment on that would probably hang down underneath the cuirass, over the loins. You don't want to wear a cuirass without anything underneath, no matter how hot you are :)
Even full linen or leather armour would feature a fabric loin covering of some description.



...I think Wonder Woman would look crap in Greek armour. Really, really crap.
I mean, you don't picture her as a Greek style warrior. The Greek Amazon back story is total rubbish, just picked out of thin air to give her some sort of legitimacy, but it doesn't fit. I DO NOT picture the goddess Diana or Athena dressed in Wonder Woman type gear or fighting people with lassos or silly stuff like that, and Amazons are... Well there's that whole cutting off the breast thing that was pretty central for them wasn't there?

Nope, it doesn't fit. She's WAY better off being super American the way she was supposed to be originally. Eagles and stars all the way! :)

But with the current costume: Bare thighs are Wonder Woman's "thing". She needs to retain those. It's not that it's sexy, or sexist, it's just her LOOK: Black hair, gold tiara thing, red and gold chest thing, bare arms, metal wrist things, gold belt thing, blue undies/skirt/shorts or whatever (with or without stars), bare legs and red boots.
That's the look.

Dictionary descriptions of the word describe "kirtle" as a short, shapeless under-dress for women

The common definition for kirtle in this day and age refers primarily to the long, loose gowns worn by women. There is a reason the other definition gets listed as "obsolete."

isukun
There is a reason the other definition gets listed as "obsolete."

Lots of words are listed as "obsolete", but it doesn't take away the fact they were the right ones for the job at one time or another.
I'm firmly an anachronist when it comes to the full use of English. There are just too many great words with too many great meanings! :)

I've never seen "kirtle" described as a "long, loose gown" though. That sounds like a nighty.

That's the common definition, usually used when referring to the kinds of dresses worn in the Middle Ages. Do an image search for "kirtle" on google and you'll be hard pressed to find anything else.

isukun
That's the common definition, usually used when referring to the kinds of dresses worn in the Middle Ages. Do an image search for "kirtle" on google and you'll be hard pressed to find anything else.

Do a search for "acronym" and you'll find almost only initialisms.
No one can stop the progress of the natural change of English language that happens due to the ignorance of the general public, but that doesn't mean the change happens retrospectively.

Languages change over time, that is not mecessarily a product of ignorance. Using archaic definitions of words rather than the commonly accepted modern definitions does not denote intelligence, either.

isukun
Languages change over time, that is not mecessarily a product of ignorance.
Using archaic definitions of words rather than the commonly accepted modern definitions does not denote intelligence, either.

Sorry Isukun, but that's a really stupid thing to say.
For a start I wasn't for a second implying that I was smarter than you because I knew older words for things. You obviously feel a little insecure about that so you feel the need to justify yourself.
Word meanings will often change due to sheer ignorance There's nothing pejorative about that it's just simply true- I am ignorant of most of the Latin, Greek, French, and German languages- all the key root languages of many of the English words we use today, and I freely admit that. That ignorance causes me to perpetuate mistakes in usage like everyone else.
That's normal and inevitable.

But the more widely I read, especially of older texts, the more my vocabulary expands. If I use older meanings or obscure words because of this there's no harm in that- there's actually some benefit, because through my usage I can expand the perspective of others as well. I'm grateful when other people use words and meanings that force me to expand my own knowledge, I don't get upset and call them a "smartarse".


I AM sorry to have offended you though. I value your input on all threads here and I'm sure many others do as well.
It's just that you've started to offend me a little with your implications.

re discussion of kirtle definition, this is exactly the kind of situation that prompted the debate/discussion topic: standard word definitions (http://www.drunkduck.com/community/view_topic.php?cid=241&tid=54727&p=2 )

imo, knowing the history of a word can give greater depth to its current usage. for example, it seems kirtle essentially means undergarment, or maybe essential garment.

Back to WW, I agree, Linda Carter's depiction kind of defines the look for me as a fictional superhero character. I've never imagined WW as an historic amazon.

Re historic amazons, according to Wikipedia (the "ultimate authority"), the derivation of amazon:
:Among Classical Greeks, amazon was given a popular etymology as from a-mazos, "without breast", connected with an etiological tradition that Amazons had their right breast cut off or burnt out, so they would be able to use a bow more freely and throw spears without the physical limitation and obstruction; there is no indication of such a practice in works of art, in which the Amazons are always represented with both breasts, although the right is frequently covered."

so I don't see a factual depiction of WW as an amazon becoming a popular choice.

Word meanings will often change due to sheer ignorance There's nothing pejorative about that it's just simply true

And there are often cases where word meanings change due to cultural shifts or the fact that the old useage really does not apply, anymore. I'm sorry if I seem offended, but there are a lot of people who like to go online and use big words or archaic meanings as a way of showing off or asserting their superiority. I find it very arrogant and I get sick of it after a while, especially when the words are used inappropriately.

If you have seen people referring to any article of Greek clothing as a kirtle it is likely due to the old practice of trying to find parallels between ancient and modern terminology. I find that practice more fueled by ignorance than anything as it implies a different meaning than the original and at the same time removes meaning from the parallel term. In the end it often causes confusion as it has here. In this case, what you are referring to is the chitoniskos, which was a shorter version of the chiton, frequently only covering the upper body (exposed male genetalia wasn't as big an issue to the Greeks and sleeves were considered effeminate).

imo, knowing the history of a word can give greater depth to its current usage. for example, it seems kirtle essentially means undergarment, or maybe essential garment.

If you go by the literal meaning of the word, it refers to a garment that is cut short. Kirtles always served as a base for outerwear and were never undergarments, though. You would still wear a chemise or shirt under it. In men's fashion it went out of style in favor of more modern clothing types. In women's fashion, they evolved into an informal one-piece dress. In some cases they would be worn under an apron or a more formal gown.

so I don't see a factual depiction of WW as an amazon becoming a popular choice.

And the American dominatrix look is better? Honestly, I don't expect a full blown, 100% accurate representation of an Amazon warrior. Modern shows seem to be shying away from the classic superhero look, however, and audiences are craving more believeable characters and scenarios in their live action entertainment. While some of your comics fans might object to costume changes, I think your general non-comic fans would find it easier to take a character seriously if her outfit had more to do with her origins or personality and looked less like something she ordered out of an adult toy catalog.

isukun
but there are a lot of people who like to go online and use big words or archaic meanings as a way of showing off or asserting their superiority. I find it very arrogant and I get sick of it after a while, especially when the words are used inappropriately.

I was clearly not doing this here. If this was your impression you are mistaken.

isukun
If you have seen people referring to any article of Greek clothing as a kirtle it is likely due to the old practice of trying to find parallels between ancient and modern terminology. I find that practice more fueled by ignorance than anything as it implies a different meaning than the original and at the same time removes meaning from the parallel term.

Not at all. "Kirtle" in the English language was a common word used to describe short tunics. And this is how I have seen it used in texts. This was entirely appropriate. I'd seen it used in the correct contexts so I used it in that way myself.

It transpires that you were unaware of this. You had a slight issue when you realised you had been misunderstanding what I was saying because of that. Can we leave this irrelevance be before we start getting more referenced quotes? ;)

...You DO tend to be quite pedantic at times about things and that is one of your endearing character traits in the forums. We like it. We expect it of you. It's fun and informative. We like you for that!
But there are some times when it would probably be better just to let it go. :)

-All right: where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink and who is right and who is dead.
-But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine it from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own cup or his enemies. Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he is given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known that I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
-You've made your decision then?
-Not remotely! Because iocane comes from Australia. As everyone knows, Australia is entirely peopled with criminals. And criminals are used to having people not trust them as you are not trusted by me. So I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.
-Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.
-Wait 'til I get going! Where was I?
-Australia.
-And you must have suspected that I would have known the poison's origin, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me!
-You're just stalling now.
-You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? You've beaten my giant, which means that you're exceptionally strong...so you could have put the poison in your own cup, depending on your strength to save you, so clearly I cannot choose the wine in front of you. But you've also bested my Spaniard, which means you must have studied and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you would have put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
-You're trying to trick me into giving away something. It won't work.
-It has worked! You've given everything away! I know where the poison is!
-The make your choice.
-I will and I choose...What in the world can that be?

someone

so I don't see a factual depiction of WW as an amazon becoming a popular choice.

And the American dominatrix look is better?

Well, since the American dominatrix sports two boobs instead of an amazonian single, then, yeah. Although it's hard for me to see Linda Carter as a dominatrix.

Now if you ask amazon, dominatrix OR iocane --- that's simplicity itself.

Right. It's an old topic but I just discovered this newsbit that justifies this necropost/update. Thanks to all the complaints it received, the developers decided to change the costume. Gone are the vinyl pants and replaced with darker version made of nylon. She also has red boots now.

Those stars along the seam of the pants make her look like General Custer.



And everytime I see a beveled red star I see a hammer and sickle in the middle.

Well, I just got a boner.

Not really but that actually makes her hot.


(this is the part where someone gets offended)

The revised costume really does look much better.

1. More believable for an action hero.
2. Less trashy.
3. The stars along the sides of dark blue pants do evoke that Union cavalry theme, which is a good thing.
4. Red boots make her look even more like a rodeo cowgirl. Not a bad thing.

Yeah, I think it looks better too. What's funny is it looks like the only things they changed were the pants material and the boots color, but that made a lot of difference.

Yup, the redone one gets my approval ^_^ Subtle changes, but a drastic aesthetic difference.

Looks like it may bea moot point, anyway. Seems the show's gotten canned before it even started airing. Apparently the pilot was as bad as everyone feared.

That would make it the third failed pilot for a Wonder Woman TV series. For those keeping count there's the 1967 pilot (Who's Afraid of Diana Prince?) and the horrid Cathy Lee Crosby pilot from 1974.

But the following year they got it right with the New Original Wonder Woman with Lynda Carter battling the Nazis with Lyle Waggoner.

Some tongue-in-cheek campiness might save the new incarnation. That or Nazi zombies. Vigilante in modern day LA? Nah, Nazi zombies.

And have Cary Elwes play the dread pirate Roberts...

isukun
Looks like it may bea moot point, anyway. Seems the show's gotten canned before it even started airing. Apparently the pilot was as bad as everyone feared.

Fairly positive review at iFanboy but, in the light of the show's cancellation, pretty academic.

Judging from the stills in that review, it seems that - contrary to all the online griping about "realism" and "practicality" - they were going to go with the traditional WW costume (and, in my opinion, she looks much better in it than she did in those lycra slacks!)

i just found this awesome photo-manipulation on deviantArt and just had to share it:

(EDIT: "Awesome" refers to the costume, not to her ridiculous Michael Turner / Rob Liefeld style waist :P)

Who's the woman? Doesn't look like the actress above.
LOL I guess that's Wonder Woman in Amazonian swimsuit, "stormin' the beach."

'Wonder Woman as done by Rob Liefeld?'
Gross.

Chernobog
'Wonder Woman as done by Rob Liefeld?'
Gross.

Haha! I was sort of expecting a comment like that. (For me, the waist is a flashback to Michael Turner's infamous Power Girl cover image :/) But please, people - I was just trying to make a point about the costume ^^;