TnTComic

Mak
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

I realize that Mr. Jefferson was speaking about the American people here, but I believe that the spirit of the document and of our founding requires us to bring the same rights to everyone on the planet. Period. You can disagree, and that is fine. I am just stating my point. The people of Iraq are a million times better off than they were before.

I don't recall forcing a way of life on a sovereign nation as having anything to do with freedom.

I wonder how you'd like it if the situations were reversed, and our liberators draped our women in burkhas as they told us how much better off we were.

I don't think the military is running around Iraq handing out daisy dukes and bikini tops. They still have the right to self govern, if they want to wear Burkhas they can. We are not forcing them to do anything. We are not forcing a way of life on them. We did "force" a political system on them, but we did not even force our political system on them.

The Fundamental Principles of the Law include the following:

* The system of government in Iraq will be republican, federal, democratic, and pluralistic. Federalism will be based on geography, history, and the separation of powers and not on ethnicity or sect.
* The Iraqi Armed Forces will fall under the control of Iraq's civilian political leadership.
* Islam will be the official religion of the State and will be considered a source of legislation. The Law will respect the Islamic identity of the majority of the Iraqi people and guarantee the freedom of religious belief and practice.
* Arabic and Kurdish will be the official languages of Iraq.

Please tell me what is bad about the above. How did we force our way of life on them?

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF ITS GOOD OR BAD

What matters is we're forcing a way of life on them. That's pretty unamerican, to me.

Why are our politicians asking for a timetable of withdrawal? Shouldn't we be asking the Iraqi people when they want us to leave?

TnTComic
IT DOESN'T MATTER IF ITS GOOD OR BAD

What matters is we're forcing a way of life on them. That's pretty unamerican, to me.

Why are our politicians asking for a timetable of withdrawal? Shouldn't we be asking the Iraqi people when they want us to leave?

Okay you win, we should just leave and allow whichever lunatic is strongest to takeover. Cause that wouldn't be forcing anything on them right. While we are at it, why don't we let all the prisoners in our country out of prison, I mean we are forcing them to obey our rules right, and clearly they don't want to, it must be Unamerican to force them to obey those rules. So lock up your kids ladies and gentleman, cause we're letting the pedophiles out of prison. As long as we aren't forcing anything on them right.

How many straw men did you count, ladies and gentlemen?

TnTComic
How many straw men did you count, ladies and gentlemen?

Mak

TnTComic
IT DOESN'T MATTER IF ITS GOOD OR BAD

What matters is we're forcing a way of life on them. That's pretty unamerican, to me.

Why are our politicians asking for a timetable of withdrawal? Shouldn't we be asking the Iraqi people when they want us to leave?

Okay you win, we should just leave and allow whichever lunatic is strongest to takeover. Cause that wouldn't be forcing anything on them right. While we are at it, why don't we let all the prisoners in our country out of prison, I mean we are forcing them to obey our rules right, and clearly they don't want to, it must be Unamerican to force them to obey those rules. So lock up your kids ladies and gentleman, cause we're letting the pedophiles out of prison. As long as we aren't forcing anything on them right.

You don't get it. It's one thing to expect everyone to follow our laws and our way of life while in OUR country.... but it's another thing competely to go to a different country and say: "Your country should follow OUR laws and our way of life even though your country is not the USA."

That's just as bad as say, A CINO (Christain in name only, to coin Dueeast's phrase), saying that the Christain Faith is the ONLY good religion of the world, and therefore everyone should be a christain OR ELSE.

Not everyone is suited to the life of a christain, and it would never just work at all espeically in certain lifestyles that the people are most comfortable with. So those CINOs' should really back off....

Just as the American life of seeing half-naked women everywhere in ads, TV, movies, etc may not suit the life of a Muslim at all.

And there are some who would say that the Muslim's methods of dealing with pedophiles are way better than the American laws dealing with them. =D
Apperently, they put this spiky thing on a male pedophile's most deicate part of his body..... and they give out over a thousand lashing while pulling on the toture device which slowly and painfully seperates his balls from his body.
As seeing most pedophiles die from that, nobody dares to go after a very young child like that.

Hahahahahahahaha! How Hilarious that Evil Emperor Nick's thread about the nature of debates and how they can be spoiled by people turning them into soap boxes from which preach their respective ideologies or attack those of others gets turned into that very thing! lol!

This is headed for lockage... Maybe you should start a new thread just about the particular aspect of the Iraq occupation and invasion that you want to talk about? And see how long before it turns into another "The Bush Administration is Eeeeevil AND STUPID Vs Bush knows best, do not seek to question, it's YOU who are stupid."

OK.
Let's talk about debate then shall we? I think one of the negative aspects of most discussions here is that a topic will get turned into "this VS that" very quickly, with everyone rushing to pick sides. Usually it's a ratio of 10 on one side Vs 4 on the other. Out of the 10 , 5 of those will be moderate and sensible, 2 will be friendly and willing to concede points on both sides, 1 will be an idiot, and the last 2 will be rabid, aggressive ideologues. On the other; 1 will be moderate and sensible, 1 will be friendly and willing to concede and learn, 1 will be an idiot, and the last will be the ideologue. What role do you like to play? :)

Personally, I don't think many issues are really about "This Vs That", I think it's really about trying to get to grips with the issue being discussed rather than fighting about it. Although by putting it that way, ironically I've just phrased it in a "This Vs That" fashion: "This Vs That" Vs "trying to get to grips with an issue". lol!

Evil Emperor Nick
In short I am troubled for I would love to have honest conversation but have no desire to throw myself into the current sea of seething arguement for the sake of arguement. I've tried to do so before and I've found the whole thing to be very counter productive and really harmful. I've found such angry debate to be highly polarizing, honestly I find it very hard to keep an open mind when some is attacking your opinion rather the examining it. My, and I belive most people's, first reaction is not to question one's opinion but to sink deeper into it and become emotionally attached to it when attacked and having my opinions over shadowed by emotion is not a good place to be since, often, we are blind to our emotions even though they maybe obvious to others. How often do we admite disapointment in a political figure inwardly but continue to defend them because we are emotionally attached to the fact we had picked them and don't want to question our own judgement and wisdom, further so often we become obsessed with the person rather then the specific policies which are what we really should strive to change rather then the figure themselves.

I agree its hard to remain civil when you're opinion is being attacked, and further it hard not to lose your temper when you see such arrogance playing out in debate.

I admit when people ignore my well reasoned arguments and pick out things out of context to ridicule, I get mad.

And certain issues like the nature of patriotism, the implications of exisitence and the responsibiliteies we have to each other and the earth are so dear to me that I wear out more than my share of soap boxes, but I at least try to respond to arguments with reason.

Point taken, I will try not to be the first person to whip out my sarcasm pistol in a fight, but once guns are drawn I don't intend to take a bullet quietly.