@ Inkmonkey:
Because... playing a fighting game seriously involves zero mashing of buttons? (Except when Chun Li is flashkicking, etc.)

@ JNP:
The Darkstalkers series has the most memorable character designs/animations of all time. Too bad the game series itself never really hit it big.
You wanna know why Capcom sucks? It doesn't update the graphics/sound of its fighting games. Imagine how glorious it'd be if DS graphics/sound were updated with each incarnation. Does Virtua Fighter reuse its graphics? Does Tekken reuse its graphics? No. Everything is revamped. Why can't 2D fighters be the same? Samurai Shodown is the only game I know of that updated its graphics pretty frequently.

Virtua Fighter and Tekken are 3d games. It does not take the developers long to tweak the renders for those types of games.

Hand drawn sprites involve much more time and money.
Back then it costed even more and they had to make sure not to overload their arcades memory and such with too many frames/colors


Now it probably costs as much but the rewards are not as good. Everyone wants to buy 3d fighters. Companies cannot make a profit off 2d sprites.

If SF4 does well Ono mentions he would like to make a Darkstalkers game. If the only way I can still play 2d fighters is in 2.5D then that's fine with me.

Battle Fantasia played just like a 2d fighter and it's 2.5D, so I hope they can do that. Then whenever they make sequels it will be easy to give everything a face lift with each game.

I believed that "it's harder to update 2D sprites" excuse for a long time, too. But the thing is, 3D fighters don't just give its sequels a render facelift. Each sequel always involves a complete graphical (and concept design) overhaul. Compare Tekken/VF/SC 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 to 5. It's not just "touch up the textures and slap it back on the same polygons." Hell, Capcom 2D fighters don't even do that.

I'd like to see them make a "3D, but still plays 2D" version of Darkstalkers, just like they're doing for Street Fighter 4. But I'm not a fan of the SF4 style, so I'd like to see them do something different for a new Darkstalkers game. I think they could really do a lot with color and light in 3D to really bring the characters and their designs to life.

However, Darkstalkers' biggest hindrance is also its design. Those delightfully outlandish characters are bizarre enough to not understand them at first glance. With a character design like Ryu or Zangief you know exactly what kinds of moves to expect from them. They're bound by (nearly) human fighting conventions and their character designs indicate their speed, strength, and range. But in Darkstalkers, how do you understand or predict the moves of a succubus or chinese zombie ghost without having played the game for quite a while? Dedicated players figure it out after a while... The less dedicated move on to some other game that they can mesh with right away.

@mlai: I still have to disagree about 3d being just as difficult to make.

How many 3D fighters do you see? I mean most of them have 30+ characters. Granted they all play the same, but it's still just a skin.

Once the developers go to there new hardware all they have to do is make (maybe) a new model render. Probably not many model renders either. After 1 is finished I am sure it is easy to tweak that figure into different sizes and shapes.

Slap a skin on it and start motion capturing people or animating the figures with other methods.

Where as with sprites, everything is hand drawn animation. Every frame is 100% made from scratch (if the company is going for a face lift). They can't just use the same sprite and make it 5-9 characters without it being painfully obvious. There is no magic render functions for animations, proportions have to always be taken into consideration when drawing the sprites.

After they are drawn they they have to go over the drawing again pixel by pixel. KOF kinda uses a somewhat easier approach. Now they use 3d models and pixel by pixel make the new frames from that. But it's still more work than a 3d fighter has to have done.

@Hawk: That's actually what made me like DS games when I was new to them. I wanted to know how Frankenstein fought. And the Vampire being a Ryu/Ken type helped out a lot as well when 1st picking it up.

When you see all these monsters you know right away "This is a game that will NOT be like the other typical human Fighters"

The learning curb is pretty steep on characters like Anakaris, and Hsien Ko... but the game is nowhere near as difficult to play as all these Guilty Gear games and their clones.

Now those games have STRANGE stuff... for being "human" fighting games.

But you hit it on the head about non dedicated players moving on. They move to Tekken, DOA, and other direction+attack games that are easy to pick up and play. While there is nothing wrong with that, those dedicated players get bored pretty quick with these games. At least me and the 2d fighting game friends I have sure do.

I also agree that a 2,5D DS game should be either much MUCH more cartooney than the SF4 game... or MUCH more darker. Not sure which style would work best. I assume cartooney as the 2d games look like you are playing an anime. But the darker premise may bring the game back to root again. Tough choice on that one.

After they are drawn they they have to go over the drawing again pixel by pixel.

Not really. There are shortcuts to converting a hand drawn cell into a 16 or 32 color sprite. Usually you only have to do some minor cleanup. Traditionally, 2D games have been cheaper to make. In fact, they're still cheaper to make. How often do you see the doujin crowd making 3D fighters vs how often you see them making 2D fighters? I can guarantee you it isn't because making a 3D fighter is "too easy." You'll also often find less characters in 3D doujin titles than in 2D.

You seem to overlook the stupid amounts of optimization that has to occur in a 3D fighter. It isn't something as simple as slapping a skin on a rig and it working. Especially with more modern games with moving hair, clothing and flesh (not just boobies, musculature, as well). The model itself has to go through a lot of optimization t work right with the physics engine and avoid problems with unnatural joint movements and so forth. Then you have your move sets. While a lot of games use motion captured movement, the game still has to be programed for transitions so movement looks natural. Animators are also going to tweak the animation so it doesn't look boring, as well. One move has to flow into another and when they connect, the opponent has to react in a way that makes sense visually. This has to work with every combination of characters, too. Lets also not forget that a lot of 3D games don't just offer "pallet swaps" of their models and actually have characters wear drastically different outfits. Each of those outfits needs to be modeled and optimized to function on that character.

You are right on the Doujin aspect a bit. But you rarely see them give doujin games a face lift either. If a doujin game gets a sequel it's almost always going to just build on the old sprites.

Once they make sprites, the sprites stay the same.
It's "easier" for sprites to be made. Or I should say, the learning curb is less. For someone that knows how to make 3d renders I doubt they would like to make hand drawn sprites.

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying either is a cake walk. But the work + potential rewards are way different.

Which is why SF4 is going 2.5D A 3d looking fighter can still be sold for $50+ dollars.

Arcana Heart is the 1st 2d fighter I have seen over $25 in years. Granted in japan they still sell okay... I guess they sell enough to keep SNK afloat. I wish those games could be more expensive here in the US and actually sell.

I'm thinking the lean toward 3D games is the same as the lean for CG animated movies; they tend to sell better, and there's less meticulous work involved. Saying "why don't they just remake the sprites every game" is like saying "Why don't all those guys on Newgrounds just do traditional animation instead of Flash?" It's not the same.


Also, to my previous discussion about button-mashing: if you're doing specific button presses to perform specific actions, then that's not really buttonmashing. That's just playing the game. Maybe playing the game haphazardly or with a lack of finesse, but it's still not randomly mashing buttons.

But you rarely see them give doujin games a face lift either. If a doujin game gets a sequel it's almost always going to just build on the old sprites.

That doesn't change my point, however. From my experience, most 3D doujin fighters simply don't get sequels. Also, when you look at playable characters, a 2D doujin fighter typically has at least ten playable characters in the first iteration, while I've seen several 3D doujin fighters that top out at eight or even six playable characters (one I saw had four). Usually the only ones with a lot of characters are the ones where every character has extremely simple models and move sets.

For someone that knows how to make 3d renders I doubt they would like to make hand drawn sprites.

I know how to build, rig, and animate 3D models for games, but if it came down to which one was easier for me, I would take hand drawn sprites any day of the week. I can churn those out much faster than actually going through the process of building the model, rigging it, texturing it, applying physics properties to the elements that need them, and then animating each individual move, fighting stance, impact, etc, and the 2D sprites would require far less tweaking to get them to work the way I want them to. Not to mention 2D games in general require far less programing than 3D games. That's why 3D games tend to have larger development teams and bigger budgets.

But the work + potential rewards are way different.

Arcade 2D fighters and games released in Japan sell for higher prices with few problems. We don't see it as much here because of the restrictions placed on 2D games in the West. Companies like Sony and Microsoft limit 2D as part of their content control. A lot of developers and fighter fans have complained since the days of the PS2 that Sony is incredibly strict when it comes to 2D gaming on their systems. Combine that with a dwindling hardcore market in Japan and the fall of the arcade and it just makes more sense that developers would start to make games that are friendlier to the Western at home market and can still be put out at full price.

The decision has nothing to do with how easy it is to make the games and everything to do with what has the greatest sales potential. Right now, that means scrambling for the US market and the only way to do that is to make your games 3D.

That doesn't change my point, however. From my experience, most 3D doujin fighters simply don't get sequels. Also, when you look at playable characters, a 2D doujin fighter typically has at least ten playable characters in the first iteration, while I've seen several 3D doujin fighters that top out at eight or even six playable characters (one I saw had four). Usually the only ones with a lot of characters are the ones where every character has extremely simple models and move sets.

That does go back to the point that started this however. Mlai said that the 2d fighters never get facelifts. Once you make a 3d fighter it is easier to import the old model and upgrade it. Once everything is finished it is easier to churn out more titles. On the other hand, once you get sprites made it's EVEN EASIER to just reuse the same sprites. All the old physics, etc

Doujin games probably never sell enough to get to that point. Probably because of inferior renders and a lack of marketing that they would have.

I know how to build, rig, and animate 3D models for games, but if it came down to which one was easier for me, I would take hand drawn sprites any day of the week. I can churn those out much faster than actually going through the process of building the model, rigging it, texturing it, applying physics properties to the elements that need them, and then animating each individual move, fighting stance, impact, etc, and the 2D sprites would require far less tweaking to get them to work the way I want them to. Not to mention 2D games in general require far less programing than 3D games. That's why 3D games tend to have larger development teams and bigger budgets.

On the other hand I have known people that can render. They have made multiple characters in the mugen engine and can't sprite for crap. Though different strokes for different folks. This part would be more along the line of (what would you prefer to do)
Now I've seen someone that can render whom would rather make sprites.

Though at this point I lost the point of our discussion =p
I think it's easier to make new 3D fighters after the ground work is set and you think that it would be easier to resprite everything for each game.

Back on topic my favorite characters would be QBee, Lilith, Victor, Sasquatch, and Felicia from DS

Ken, Ryu, Fei Long, and Charlie from SF Hugo and Makoto from SF3

I used to play fighting games RELIGIOUSLY. Like, hours and hours in practice mode rehearsing combos and crap. I still play online on Kallera sometimes but I'm really rusty now, but still fairly unstoppable

My favs of all time in no particular order:

-Marvel vs Capcom 2 (spiderman, rouge and megaman)
-Street fighter alpha 2 and 3 (sakura)
-Killer Instinct (orchid)
-Melty Blood (Arcuied and Ciel)
-Soul Calibur 2 (Ivy and Sophitia)
-Street Fighter 3: third strike (ken)
-Gaoru: Mark of wolves (Terry Bogard and Hotaru)
-Evil Zone(a game nobody else has ever heard of apparently; Midori and Setsuna)

And I'm really embarassed to say, but I really like Capcom Fighting Evolution. It's very balanced...and has Sakura in it...*cough*

I'm very amped for Street Fighter 4!!!

Oh! and I almost forgot, that old 3d fatal fury game for playstation 1, I really liked that one, better than Maximum Impact anyway.

Awesome! ^^

I haven't played a lot of fighting games, but from the games I have played, it's Street Fighter 2: Turbo that takes the prize of best fighting game, no doubt about it.

The Soul Calibur series has recently been a big favorite of mine for fighting games. I used to like to play Killer Instinct at my cousins house.

Raphael in Soul Calibur 2 was beastly; even though now in SCIV he feels way too slow.

And Orchid from Killer Instinct because she was the only character I could win with.

JustNoPoint


Awesome! ^^

LOL!

JustNoPoint


Awesome! ^^

JustNoPoint makes a good point .

I change my previous answer. Soul Calibur is really good but I've been playing Street Fighter 3 3rd strike recently and it's completely amazing. It's got a really good system in place that makes it hard for new players to win until they've learned the ropes quite a bit. I consider myself decent at it and that's before I've even started using the parry system regularly. The computer opponents are spammy as ever but the fights against other players are really good. I play Makoto and Q.

The parry system for SF3 completely pisses me off. Single biggest reason for disliking the game. I'm so glad the devs purposely went in the opposite direction for SF4. They realized how much it pisses non-hardcore players off.

And I'm a guy who got decent in VF4 Evo. That's how much SF3 parry system pisses off anyone who doesn't live breathe sleep SF3.

I like the Parry system. It's one of those things that helps insure a button-mashing scrub could never beat an experienced player, as it should be. Parrying's not so bad if you just learn how to use it. It's pretty simple. Press forward for high parry, down for low parry. Granted, I haven't learned how to fully implement in my fights yet, but it should help a bit once I do.

I'm actually a bit jeeved they got rid of the parry system for Street Fighter 4, because that means it'll probably play just like Alpha 3, except with less characters, which doesn't sound like much fun.

My fave would have to be Capcom Vs. SNK 2 eo

I definitely prefer 2d fighters over the 3d ones. I'm really looking forward to the new King of Fighters, as it looks to be amazing!

I loved the parry system. There was something exhilarating about pulling off a parry and then turning it around on your opponent. I'm certainly a long way from mastering parries, though. I wish they were using them in SF4, but I understand that Parrying had a really mixed reception. We'll just have to see what they're replacing it with.