Is it a good idea to take the crime of history personally?
Generally people do this when they have some family, ethnic, religious, or nationalistic connection with those who were wronged. The point is though that usually the aggrieved parties have almost no living connection to the crime, most often there's no living connection at all. But that's certainly not always the case!

This came to mind because of some of the things mentioned in one of Obsidian's posts about the horrific brutalisations suffered by the (primarily) West African people who were victims of the slave trade in North America. But there are also other cases: The war crimes committed by the Serbians against the Croatians in the 90's were justified by the Serbs who remembered the vicious war crimes committed against them by Nazi Croats during the second world war... The Jewish state of Israel justifies the (often brutal) subjugation of millions of Palestinians and the theft and/or destruction of their land by claiming a connection with a historical homeland well over 1500 years dead... As well as trading on well deserved sympathy for what the Jewish peoples suffered in Europe during WW2.
There are feminists, and female Wiccans who claim an aggrieved connection with the women who were killed as part of the inquisitions... Irish Catholics and Protestants who continually trade of the terrible crimes of the past.
And so on, and so on...

I ask, is it healthy to take history personally, considering where we know it can lead? -as you should know from some of those examples.
After all, we are all part of the human race, these crimes are crimes against all our ancestors. Our connections to these events, no matter how personally felt are rarely more than superficial. We should know of them so that we don't repeat them, so we understand modern current events and the whole world better, but if we take them personally we can risk resurrecting them in new and more awful form...

Then again, they help us more clearly understand our current place in the world and why we may face certain disadvantages, prejudices, and lack of opportunities that are available to others- such as those faced by the decedents of slaves in North America, and the peoples of many modern post colonial African countries etc. In those cases, one couldn't help but taking history personally!
But I still don't know if it's always a good thing.

-edited refs to wiccans so as not to cause offence...

I'm a personal believer in a globalized society. Many people disagree with this idea because they feel it leads to the lessening of culture around the world, and creates a homogeneous, boring population of people easily influenced. Still, it's when things like this come up that I feel justified in my belief. These crimes of history have nothing to do with people who were born after the fact. Jews shouldn't hate Germans because of what occurred during WWII, and neither should African-Americans hate all white people because of slavery. Certain individuals who are predjudiced are still around, in which case society should try to educate them about why their beliefs are wrong, but a group shouldn't hate another group because of something that happened in the past.


Heck, the way I see it we're one race clinging to a dustball which is hurtling through space. The least we can do is try to be civil to each other and forgive.

ozoneocean
There are feminists and women who join the modern Wicca cult who claim an aggrieved connection with the women who were killed as part of the inquisitions.

I sort of expect more knowledgeable stuff to come out of you of all people Ozone (I'm supposed to be the unknowledgable prick, not you!). Wicca is NOT a cult. A cult is a religious group that manipulates, restricts, and uses its members to satisfy its own purposes, which usually involves putting money in the leaders' pockets.

Now, how does a peaceful religion that is mainly practiced by solitary people (Wicca is such an unorganized religion it is unreal), that practically forbids trying to convert people, and teaches people to not do bad shit to each other get labelled a cult?

Now, as to connect the whole thing about the inquisition, I strongly doubt that is why people join Wicca. The only real connection that Wiccans have to the Spanish Inquisition is that the Spanish Inquisition tried to crush any practice of witchcraft (truth be told, the Spanish Inquisition was just out for political power and money).

The problem now is how does a hatred of pagan stuff caused by an ancient fanatic organization make women join an alternative religion? Sure, most SI victims were women, but it was so long ago that it really has no bearing on why anyone would convert to an alternative religion.

The actual reason most women join is probably because of the less patriarchic feel and nature, not because of some ancient group who killed people. That's not to say that there aren't any that join because of the SI's murder of a bunch of women. I just doubt that is the main reason behind the majority of conversions.

That's like saying that Jews obsess over money because the Germans used to take it from them all the time, or lesbians are gay because men have abused women in the past, or Mexican people like tacos because they are from Mexico.

Rich
That's like saying that Jews obsess over money because the Germans used to take it from them all the time, or lesbians are gay because men have abused women in the past, or Mexican people like tacos because they are from Mexico.

Yeah thats just like saying we like Tacos......even though i do >_>...I mean who doesnt like Tacos? Blah im getting off the subject!

Black people take history personally,Jewish people take history personaly, Hell American Indians are taking things too personally! and their getting angry at stuff that never even happened to them. I have somthing to say about all of this!

If it never happened to you then dont worry about it. The only people who should be angry are the ones who TRULY witnessed these scenes and experienced them! STOP MILKING FOR WHAT ITS WORTH!

Rich, you have the wrong end of the stick, I claimed no causal relationship between perception of ancient crime and wanting to join an organisation because of that. Rather, people who are members of a group may tend to feel affiliation with people they believe they have a historical connection with, who experienced the aforesaid historical crime. Wiccans were just one of a number of examples.
If you choose to see the word "cult" in a pejorative sense, that's your business, no negative implication was intended through its use on my part, I assure you.

Back to other issues... Ok, It's easy enough for me to say that people shouldn't take crimes against their ancestors personally, but what about when they still face negative experiences in their present lives that are related to what their great, great, great grandparents faced in the past? i.e. Native American peoples in North America, The native peoples in much of central and South America, Australian Aborigines etc.
When there's still prejudice against you, or your opportunities in life are less than those of other groups, and you know that the reasons behind your present circumstances are related to the crimes committed against your ancestors, how can you not take those crimes personally?

humanity should put more energy to shaping the future rather than be stuck trying to change or make up for the past. Stacking all those problems that our elders have suffered will only break our backs and make you bitter towards the future.

But what of the present. I live my life and notice things just are not aright in the world. I grew up living sheltered under my parents' roof thinking "yea, that was the past. Things are MUCH better now. Sins have been attoned for and the world is a happier place." But things are amiss (and they won't teach you this in school). You start to get a sense that things are not quite right (what?!?! The KKK are rallying in my town? They're still around??!?!) but you don't want to believe it or you think it is just individual circumstances. You start to experience things and learn that things are not quite so right but that doesn't mean the world is not great ... and all the things that were put into your head when you were younger are still somewhat valid, right? And then I actually go out into the world and am faced with a few choices, mainly - to face the harsh truths of my existance, or to delude myself in fear of upsetting that great view of the world everyone has been taught (like being stuck in a panic room for all of my life. NO way do I want that)? Blah, I choose to see things for what they truly are, no matter how painful. It is a choice every person of color has to face whether they want to or not.

One thing I know, this world isn't kind to people of darker skin and kinky hair. It's just not, no matter how often I wish it were not so. And this dislike transcends through to so many groups of people (Indian people and their cast system based mainly on skin color - oh they see Black as the lower than even their lowest cast; China having words that link Black people with Demon; imperialistic taught views of "race"). What makes it worse is that even my own group of people do not like themselves, treating the darker ones with kinkier hair worse than others (such things as the brown paper bag test, or the blue vein club, mixed white or highly european looking Blacks getting preferred as mates or being worshipped by Hollywood and the Music industry). So I try to find out why things are so messed up. I read my history, I listen to my elders, I go out and experience. Everything traces back to enslavement and later colonialism. I find that this enslavement was not like say how Romans or other cultures enslaved other people. No this enslavement treated my ancestors like how cattle are treated today (disgusting, just damned disgusting - all for greed. If things were truly right, there would be no such thing as destitute and poor Black neighborhood and Black people would have gotten their reparations). In outrage I think to myself "but my ancestors were ... I am human?" Oh and science and religion I learn have done so much harm. Penis envy; linking us to apes and sexual deviants; saying God choose us for use to be enslaved. Reading these things is enough to get anyone perturbed. Attutides like this, where do they go? They don't just fade away.

And then I find that it is more than just history and a lingering bad attitude in some people. No, messed up remenants have sunk into my mindset - history isn't just something that happened in the past, it has shaped today. I found myself chemically straightening my hair and using damaging skin lighteners, not out of preference or convenience, but because I wanted to be considered beautiful and I was afraid of what people would say if they saw my hair with even the slightest of curl (fear of not getting jobs, being rudely stared at, not being considered a woman and individual). It was just so automatic. It is the thing to do, other Black female do it, Black males prefer you looking that way, you're mom and elders all do it. So I stopped that and had to face some brutality for being my natural self. Funny when I look back at it all considering how people are tanning like crazy now-a-days, getting lip injections, butt injections, and more black people wearing afros and such in work place settings.

I wish I could just let it go ... in fact I grew up without it. More it smack me in the face and stuck to me like glue. I can't let it go because it will always be there. Some Black folk hide it in thick layers, some ignore it, some react to it in the wrong way. Me? The only thing I can do is help to ease it away until it is gone from everyone, which will probably happen long after I am dead (and I don't see that as bleak, I see it as realistic).

I can not speak for other groups of people whose ancestors have been through tragedy. I just know my people's past and present. You know you can trace slavery to Jim Crow laws and the KKK, to the Civil Rights movement, and on to today - a time when things are grey and people are taught that everything is alright but yet things are not really. Integrating people does not take away 400 years of attitude, laws, oppression, and blood. It does not mean I hate. I hate what has happened to my ancestors, I hate how the wickedness of what was done keeps evolving and sticking around (I get a big trip out of Santa Claus - a white man giving the good children of the world gifts, and the naughty ones coal. You know, in some contries, Santa's top elf is a Black slave who was just so loyal to Santa that when the slaves were freed, he stayed at Santa's side loyaly serving him {probably not realizing that he's really Santa's son from one of the Jolly one's forced romps with his mother}. Or the white Jesus that I keep seeing everytime I go to my nearly all Black church whenever I go home to Bermuda. The dark humor of it all just makes me laugh and laugh). But I do know that humans are humans and they just do what they need to survive, despite the costs to their worlds and others.

I am reminded of when I was in the tenth grade participating in a class debate about racism, or better (since races genetically do not exist) mistreatment of people based on their background or ability, and an Indian-Anglo mixed girl remarking about how her Indian grandmother from South Africa gets so sensitive and suspicious whenever anyone white did something wrong around her. I remember her saying how silly it was that her grandma was like that and why can't her grandma just let go of her attitude and realize not everyone is out to get her. I didn't say anything but that stuck with me. I realize how silly and oblivious that girl was for her comment. Her grandma grew up in SOuth Africa - Apartheid South Africa. Although the Black African population got the brunt of mistreatment, Indian people got it bad too (Ghandi got some of his fire from being a lawyer in South Africa, only as an example though). So this woman grew up and spent most of her life being mistreated by the white people controlling the country. That just instilled in her a life long suspicion of white people. And you know what, it is silly. It is silly that a woman has to go through crap all her life and be forced to think a group of people are ill-willed because of what a nation of knuckleheads were allowed to do to her and her people. Sure she probably should know that she is in a different country and things are better. But, she may have faced some of that good ol' American hospitality to anyone not white and just kept that fear. You know psychologists can go on and on about the power of fear and what it can do to you (phobias, fugues, and what not). Can she not live the rest of her days in the comfort that those who cause her to suspect can? Perhaps never.

Sorry to make this long-winded. Just so much to say, and lots of thoughts bouncing all around. I don't know how many thesis essays I have written about this and I still can't get it out in a proper way that sms up everything. :P

I have Cherokee blood, it's not obvious by looking at me (the only part of my appearance that even vaguely resembles a Native American is my dark hair, which isn't really uncommon), but I am. The Cherokee tribe was the victim of some pretty horrible prejudice... hundreds of years ago. So, if it's normal to take the past personally, I would probably be an insane anti-government terrorist. But I'm not, because it happened long ago. Racism isn't nearly as strong as it once was, it's pratically non-existant in some parts of the world, but it still exists, I know this.

Hell, sometimes racism isn't the "whitey hates whateve thing. I actually live in a community where it's more like a "blackey hates whatever" type of deal. I have no problem with trying to correct the past, but occasionally it just gets out of hand. For example, OJ Simpson only got away with murder because the black community made a huge fuss about it. And Jews don't get tatoos merely because of what the Nazis did to them. Although I think it makes sense to a point, people HAVE to learn to let go of the past and move on, otherwise, we're never really gonna make an progress with getting rid of prejudice are we?

LIZARD_B1TE
I have Cherokee blood, it's not obvious by looking at me (the only part of my appearance that even vaguely resembles a Native American is my dark hair, which isn't really uncommon), but I am.

Okay so you basically look what? White? Black? East Asian? I have strong Cherokee bloodlines and it is somewhat apparent when you look at me and my siblings, but yet walking down the street people will say " ah she's Black." So really I don't know how it is like to feel like a Natve American - Cherokee even though technically I can claim Cherokee status and trace back which ancestors were said Cherokee and Native on both sides of my family.

I suppose my point is, if you do not look like a certain culture but have only Blood allegiances to them, then how can you validly talk about whether they should inaccurately "let go" a great and on going injustice. Shoot a lot of people have a black ancestor or few, but it does not mean they understand the "Black experience", especially if they grew up white and is treated white by everyone and being Black is not an issue in their home (like it may be in some people who are born looking white in all aspects but their parents and family are Black. Thus they have to deal with issues of identity, allegiances, forming relationships, etc). Do you live on a reservation or something - at least have some ties to the "Native American experience of life culture, the universe and everything" other than distant blood relatons and some black hair?

LIZARD_B1TE
The Cherokee tribe was the victim of some pretty horrible prejudice... hundreds of years ago. So, if it's normal to take the past personally, I would probably be an insane anti-government terrorist. But I'm not, because it happened long ago. Racism isn't nearly as strong as it once was, it's pratically non-existant in some parts of the world, but it still exists, I know this.

Victim of some pretty horrible prejudice ... but it happened long ago - hundreds? SO basically don't take the past personally then, especially if the prejudice was long ago?

Wow. So then all those reservations out there are just my imagination. The fact they are even called reservations gets to me. Native populations suffer from disproportional problems of social decay than the rest of the population. These people are unfairly represented in prisons; they have an unusually high rate of suicide; alcoholism and violence reign in their communities; poverty and desperation is an unshakable bane. A little over 100 years ago, Native Americans had a thousand fold more culture than they do now. You have Natives who remember their childhood and being sent to White schools where they were forced to learn English and to forget their mother tongue and their culture. That wasn't hundreds of years ago and there are people alive who remember it and people alive who did it to them (and such a vile thing it was).

Memory of the past is strong, especially if you could feel your culture dying all around you as you desperately held on to whatever prescious remenants; your people poisoned by a way of life that was never meant for them (obesity and diabetes from American diet of high salt, sugar, and lack of good fats)- survivors of many many foreign born illness and disease; and disillusioned because you know that your people once had a great civilization and now it it barely hangs on in a reservation.

Cherokees had the trail of tears. Many many died. Land was lost, graves and bones desecrated. You remember things like that and then some, and look at what you have in the present (the on-going wickedness of the past, it claws seeping through the generations into you prone and vulnerable form) and can't help but to "not let go". This won't turn you into a terrorist, although some might choose the route that they feel these conquerers of their people best understand and possibly fear - might and cunning.

And that is as much as I know. Imagine what a heart felt Native person may ... or even may not say.

LIZARD_B1TE
Hell, sometimes racism isn't the "whitey hates whateve thing. I actually live in a community where it's more like a "blackey hates whatever" type of deal. I have no problem with trying to correct the past, but occasionally it just gets out of hand. For example, OJ Simpson only got away with murder because the black community made a huge fuss about it. And Jews don't get tatoos merely because of what the Nazis did to them. Although I think it makes sense to a point, people HAVE to learn to let go of the past and move on, otherwise, we're never really gonna make an progress with getting rid of prejudice are we?

Just some last tidbits. You honestly think OJ got away with "murder" because the Black community made a huge fuss. LOL. By all honesty I am surprised he is still alive and breathing cause if this was just less than 50 year ago he would have been torn out of prison by a mob and lynched. Many a Black man has paid the price in the US law system for less, especially the murder of a white woman who is the wife of said Black man, and her white lover! Naw, OJ got off because of a brilliant lawyer and faulty facts about the case during a time when the US justice system is trying to fix itself up because it is a very flawed system. You could even say since he is a celebrity he also got off easier. Think about that case with the pregnant woman who went missing and turned up dead. Her husband got it bad, and he is white, but all the facts led to him. It was not a big puddle like the OJ case. Erg ... this is a whole different arguement so I am ending this.

Blackey? That's a new one. "Blackey hate whatever"? Clarify that for me. Cause I know for one thing we Black folk hate ourselves and everyone else, mainly ourselves more so than anyone else (Blackey ... never say that to my face in person). It's just how things happened with us, not really by our choice but more because of some greedy foreigners who just lacked tact, a big whole lot of it, you know (they should have drank their tea and hired their poor to do their dirty work). I am speaking in broad terms of course. I know my community has a huge self hatred issue though.

Letting go implies that there is something to let go of. Paint yourself Black for a day and walk a few weeks in my shoes ... or better yet, make yourself look trully and ethnically Cherokee and walk a few weeks in said shoes. You will see that no matter what you will be faced with, there are things you just can't let go of. Imagine having to face that all your life and then have people tell "just let it go, it was the past." If only you could, and then bam it hits you numb across your jaw while those who tell you such foolishness are frolicking about thier lives, for the rest of their lives, in oblivious joy and never having to feel such pain on such a daily and ominous level as you do. It can peeve anyone after a while.

Obsidian
Blackey? That's a new one. "Blackey hate whatever"? Clarify that for me. Cause I know for one thing we Black folk hate ourselves and everyone else, mainly ourselves more so than anyone else (Blackey ... never say that to my face in person).

1) I made the term "Blackey" up because I trying to not sound offensive by refraining from using other terms
2) Obviously you've never lived in Virginia; I have been discriminated against because my skin is "white", you are assuming that all people who are the same color as you think like you when you claim that Black people hate themselves

Obsidian
Paint yourself Black for a day and walk a few weeks in my shoes ... or better yet, make yourself look trully and ethnically Cherokee and walk a few weeks in said shoes.

I believe I had already pointed out that I live in a neighborhood where the traditional "politically correct" racism is reversed, so the only people who would give me a hard time would either not care what color I am or would be one of the whites, who would probably be too afraid to do or say anything (the neighborhood is fairly balanced in ethnicity, so there is a large black community, and I'm talking about young "gangsta" wannabes when I say this, not the many blacks who do not fit that profile).

Obsidian
Imagine having to face that all your life and then have people tell "just let it go, it was the past." If only you could, and then bam it hits you numb across your jaw while those who tell you such foolishness are frolicking about thier lives, for the rest of their lives, in oblivious joy and never having to feel such pain on such a daily and ominous level as you do. It can peeve anyone after a while.

Speaking as someone with Avoidant Personality Disorder, I do know what it's like to face prejudice (just not in the racist form, more like the "target of bullies due to lack of interest in sports and an interest in writing and drawing" type of form), and I know that it is difficult to let go of things (hence me having APD). But I didn't say that it was easy, I said that it is necessary. Why? Well, from you what said, I gather you felt some resentment towards me from what I said, what you seemed to have interpreted as racism yourself, and perhaps what I said was racist to a degree, and as I mentioned, some black people I have met have been racist themselves. In the end, it is a cycle of anger. One group hates another, the other responds in kind. People have to let go of these "old hatreds" in order to break this cycle.

Obsidian
You honestly think OJ got away with "murder" because the Black community made a huge fuss. LOL. By all honesty I am surprised he is still alive and breathing cause if this was just less than 50 year ago he would have been torn out of prison by a mob and lynched.

Forgive me, I never really bothered to double check the information on that case, but I think I remember hearing that OJ did want to confess, but his "brilliant" lawyer kept him from doing it. But, like you said, that's a different arguement.

Obsidian
Victim of some pretty horrible prejudice ... but it happened long ago - hundreds? SO basically don't take the past personally then, especially if the prejudice was long ago?

Wow. So then all those reservations out there are just my imagination.

That's actually a very interesting topic. The US has treated the Native Americans like crap over the years... but the Native Americans seem to forgive them an awefully lot. Example: the Navajo Code Breakers in WWII. Interpret that however you want, it could very well be a wide enough topic for an entirely new debate.

LIZARD_B1TE

Obsidian
Blackey? That's a new one. "Blackey hate whatever"? Clarify that for me. Cause I know for one thing we Black folk hate ourselves and everyone else, mainly ourselves more so than anyone else (Blackey ... never say that to my face in person).

1) I made the term "Blackey" up because I trying to not sound offensive by refraining from using other terms
2) Obviously you've never lived in Virginia; I have been discriminated against because my skin is "white", you are assuming that all people who are the same color as you think like you when you claim that Black people hate themselves

Well thanks for clearing that up. I just did not want to jump to conclusions. For future reference, try not to make up names for groups. In an attempt not to sound offensive, you end up do. Stick to people of "xyz orgins" if you want to be safe (if "whitey" is considered offensive", then why come up with a name for Black folks that is along the same offensive vein and not expect reprocussions?)

How shall I put this ... I was born and lived in Maryland for most of my life, I have family in Virginia, and I know how things can be in all Black areas (so much for obvious, but I won't hold that against you for you thought I made generalizations so just reacted as such). Your non black skin color makes you stand out and basically is a sign to some resentful individuals that you shouldn't be there in a Black neighborhood. Usually a white face means trouble. You can also see as a way the oppressed take revenge because there is a lot of discontempt for white folks in non-white communities, especially Black communities.

All in all I do not favor descrimination on any level. I know it can seem unfair that "it is always white people", but I assure you things seem that way because you all are called the "majority". Any descrimination directed towards you by other groups, although hurtful, in the end falls short mainly because you are viewed as "at the top of the social echeleon". That is why you hardly ever hear about hate crimes towards whites, because you can argue that it is more retaliation than anything; whereas, hate towards non-white is seen as more a "why are the lions picking on the lambs" type of thing since society is not fair (and has the nerve to call non-white folk "minorities" implying some sort of inferiority. In Bermuda, though Black are a majority, the "minority" group name is so often absent-mindedly used). :(

Now as to the us Black folk hating themselves, I should have used "cultural self hatred." Let me put things into a little perspective. You live in a Black area, so do you not notice the relaxed hair (which vastly out number thick curly afros; other types of curly hair aside), the Black on Black color discrimination, the distrust, youths leaving their communities and not coming back to help improve it, the vying to support business other than that of their own culture (you know, failure to put money back into the community outside of church), the use of European names or the frowning upon of African names, the self jokes about skin too dark or noses or lips too big, Black men and women hating on each other and refusing to date or stick together for stereotypical nd stupid reasons, etc ... A big mess.

Perhaps you don't notice those things because you are going through your own personal Hell of being a teen. It is just the Black community has a lot of self hate issues. We are a very different group of people than that of Europeans. We are physical opposites. Since European based standards rule, in a sense we have to hate what we essentially are in order to fit into "their world" (yes, the whole entire frikin' plane these days. So sad the state of things ... in Africa they have words as afrophobia ... in Africa? Man! OH yea, imperialism and the slave trade messed them over, never mind *sarcasm*). This hate manifests itself in various forms.

Other communities than the Black community have self hate issues as well and it may be in something so simple as names (like how when Asian folk come to N.America, they change their names to a western one, or they get eye lid or the leg lengthening surgeries in a frequency that is more than just a "preference" here and in their home countries; it is cultural self hate of physical features that define it different from Europeans. Add in the stereotype issues and things start getting worse.)

LIZARD_B1TE
Speaking as someone with Avoidant Personality Disorder, I do know what it's like to face prejudice (just not in the racist form, more like the "target of bullies due to lack of interest in sports and an interest in writing and drawing" type of form), and I know that it is difficult to let go of things (hence me having APD). But I didn't say that it was easy, I said that it is necessary. Why? Well, from you what said, I gather you felt some resentment towards me from what I said, what you seemed to have interpreted as racism yourself, and perhaps what I said was racist to a degree, and as I mentioned, some black people I have met have been racist themselves. In the end, it is a cycle of anger. One group hates another, the other responds in kind. People have to let go of these "old hatreds" in order to break this cycle.

So sorry for your AVP, but bullying feels very distinctly different then being stigmitized based on your cultural group (handicap included in this category as well). Bullying is more of a school thing. You can look past that and it is easy too. When you come home and on the weekends you don't have to worry about being bullied. When you get to university it is practically nonexistant. Point is, bullying has an end.

Discrimination though ... that gets you everywhere - from your teachers, to classmates, to the store attendent, to the waiter, to ... It is like haveing that bully or that group of bullies "quantum leaping" into any person - you never know what the strength of it will be. By any person, I mean ANY, because members of your own group will also trash you if you do not fit their ideals or if you look too much like white folk or whatever forced in notions. It is like living in insanity.

But, I don't think you are racist at all. That is a term that gets thrown around too much. Now-a-days people may drift in and our of acting like one. It is unavoidable. I just think you are learning things (as I learn as well). I like reading your point of view on things so don't mistake me for having any ill-feeling despite the bit of spice I may add.

LIZARD_B1TE

Obsidian
You honestly think OJ got away with "murder" because the Black community made a huge fuss. LOL. By all honesty I am surprised he is still alive and breathing cause if this was just less than 50 year ago he would have been torn out of prison by a mob and lynched.

Forgive me, I never really bothered to double check the information on that case, but I think I remember hearing that OJ did want to confess, but his "brilliant" lawyer kept him from doing it. But, like you said, that's a different arguement.

Confession ey? Well, please, do double check you facts and get back to me. Anywho I'm not sure if he did it or not. I just was remarking how funny his case was. Is he capable of murder? Heck if I know, I will leave that up to whatever devine retribution. (But his lawyer was darn good)

LIZARD_B1TE

Obsidian
Victim of some pretty horrible prejudice ... but it happened long ago - hundreds? SO basically don't take the past personally then, especially if the prejudice was long ago?

Wow. So then all those reservations out there are just my imagination.

That's actually a very interesting topic. The US has treated the Native Americans like crap over the years... but the Native Americans seem to forgive them an awefully lot. Example: the Navajo Code Breakers in WWII. Interpret that however you want, it could very well be a wide enough topic for an entirely new debate.

Oh I know about those Code Breakers, but the US military used them because their language is just so darn hard for "enemy" code breakers to crack. Forgiveness and being used as nonrespected pawns in the army (and to only get a meesly display in the Pentagon that really does not emphasize the importance of their language) do not seem to go together.

Forgiveness does not imply forgetting and not being wise. I can forgive all the wickedness in this world, because we after all are only human, but I will not forget what happend and will want to take measures to make myself better and to ensure said wickedness never happens again or at least affects me. If I am barred from even helping myself because of something that started in the past, then I will see that that wicked event is still on going, and I will be upset.

Things seem different here in Canada. Some Native groups are very staunch on their land rights and looking after each other (not the delegate of Native affairs in government though ... ah well). A few years ago their was a show down at a reservation. Canadian government had put a military base on their land and then decomissioned it leaving it a dangerous area filled with landmines and unexploded shells. The Natives just wanted their land and wanted them to get rid of the crap in it before a youth lost their life or worse. Things got bad and a Native man ended up losing his life by police opening fire on him, while unarmed.

subcultured
obsidian needs to write my papers for now on...

I'm sorry Sub, But I've posted about this at least 10 times as well as in the rules thread. These sorts of posts will be deleted. Soon I'm going to stop quoting them.

Obsidian is winning this debate through sheer volume, not to mention direct personal experience!
-I've heard there were areas in Canada that were off-limits to the police for a while. There had been tense stand-offs at times and once a police helicopter was even shot down.
It looks like the discussion is developing into one of relative power relationships?
The note about Gahndi was interesting, but wasn't his issue due more to the inequities in the colonial system, classisim and various related issues and not very much a "black/white" thing? He seemed to see even larger problems amongst his own people- the strict caste system followed by Hindus, tensions amongst the various religions... In fact Gahndi, to my way of thinking, was more for removing current causes of tension non-violently (getting rid of the British), learning from the British Colonial masters (administration, modernisation...), and very much for wiping out the negatives of the past and moving on. That seemed to be his main strategy.

at times, I sort of think that it's not so much an "cultural self-haterd" but more like society trying to follow to an set of "pyshical ideals". like society has an idea of what an "perfect, beauitful person" looks on the outside, and what an "perfect" person is supposed to act and dress like, etc. and they tend to treat any person that doesn't adhere to that "perfect" ideal very badly, inducing whites...

so if an white person doesn't adhere to the "ideal" of what an white person should be like... you know, come from an typical nuclear family, dresses in an certain way (the certain type of clothing which I often reffer to as yuppie or preppy), paratices into acitvies with others, be social.. etc... always have at least decent grades, have a nice job, have a nice house and a nice car....

if an white person doesn't even do any of that, like come from an family with only one single parent... dresses differently, like in Gothic and medvidal clothing with a mordern twist for example; and wasn't much for beloing to little groups or whatever, then that person will get discrimated and picked upon for almost much of her life just for sticking to her true self.
that's happened to me, you know. Just because I didn't ahere to the ideals and expections that society and or my community had set forth for me.
I would be denied jobs despite the fact that I was very much qualitfied for it and had dressed apporately, just all because I didn't quite fit into the "norm" even when I dress in "normal clothing" that is usually worn for jobs and so on forth.
Just because I go shopping in my gothic gear, some people espeically that of clerks, might assume that I'm more inclined to shoplift or something. and people often misunderstand my intentions, espeically when I'm deaf and I don't speak that well.
I actually had something happen once, where there was this one clerk that kept on following me around, constantly asking me if I needed help with anything... and it was very clear from her expression and the aura that I felt off her that she thought that I was the type to shoplift. and I looked over at the other people and I actually witnessed this preppy-looking girl and her friends giggling and stuff, as one of them actually put somehing inside her purse. and I told that Clerk that kept on following me and she didn't seem to believe me. so I went to ask for a manager, and pointed out those kids. Secturity discovered an shoplifted necklace inside her purse. And while I was at it, I complained to Manager that that clerk seemed to discrimate based on looks, not even thinking once that kids that was more "clean-cut looking" could be the one to commit crimes too. the look on her face.. classic.

So I think it happens for anybody of any color, that they can get picked on and discrimated if they don't happen to adhere to expecations and the "ideal" of what the community and society thinks that certain people should be like. espeically if they don't even look like the "ideal" of what the society and community thinks that people should look the most like.

Obsidian
So sorry for your AVP, but bullying feels very distinctly different then being stigmitized based on your cultural group (handicap included in this category as well). Bullying is more of a school thing. You can look past that and it is easy too. When you come home and on the weekends you don't have to worry about being bullied. When you get to university it is practically nonexistant. Point is, bullying has an end.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to make it sound like bullying and racism are the same, I was trying to point out that I know that it is hard to let go of the past.

Anyway, I really have no idea how to respond to that rather long post. Honestly, this debate could go on forever.

Yeah. I feel bad for not being able to contribute to this debate anymore, but I've said everything I can.

LIZARD_B1TE

Obsidian
So sorry for your AVP, but bullying feels very distinctly different then being stigmitized based on your cultural group (handicap included in this category as well). Bullying is more of a school thing. You can look past that and it is easy too. When you come home and on the weekends you don't have to worry about being bullied. When you get to university it is practically nonexistant. Point is, bullying has an end.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to make it sound like bullying and racism are the same, I was trying to point out that I know that it is hard to let go of the past.

Anyway, I really have no idea how to respond to that rather long post. Honestly, this debate could go on forever.

Yeah. I feel bad for not being able to contribute to this debate anymore, but I've said everything I can.

Oh, I get you know. Sorry for the misunderstanding :)

Yea I write my head off (taking my mind off of the anxiety of the coming finals next week). This is a topic I know a lot about and it is so grey. On one hand yea, let go of the past, especially if it is not bothering you and you are using it as reason to to spread hate; but on the other, if it is still affecting you and evolving then should you still let it go?

***

Here's an example of anoth group of people deciding whether to "let go":

Two years ago I saw a documentary on the Canadian imposed Chinese head tax. Chinese people were enticed to come to Canada to work on the railroad system in the 1800's. When too many of them came, they started to levy a 100 dollar head tax (pretty steep for the time). There are still people alive (in their 90's, mere kids at the time) who have retained their certificates indicating that the tax was paid on their head to enter the country. After tthe tax, Canada closed the borders to China. People (mainly men)couldn't even bring over their wives and children. Things got worse when WWII struck. Invading Japanese killed many families (and this could be a whole other topic about letting go of history), including those of the people in Canada - families who would have immigrated over to Canada had it not been for said expensive tax and the closing of the border. The border was finally opened well after the war and many Chinese found out they loft their whole families.

As an aside, Canada was not the only country to instill a head tax.

SO, flash forward to now-a-days. Some Chinese people from the community of original immigrants demand reparations - a return of all the money they had to pay to come to the country when other groups of people during the time did not have to pay a lick (nor have to face being a part from their loved ones because the country was closed to them). They also want historical representation about what was done to them and their ancestors (taught in class and mentioned as a part a siginficant part of Canadian history), as well as acknowledgement of the service they did to the country.

The conflict comes from the newer Chinese community who feels that "it was the past and should be forgotten about, why upset things" especially since things are okay now (no head tax, no border close), and since the Chinese are considered a "model minorioty". There is also the problem with identifying who exactly are those who had to pay, and how to distribute it.

There are thousands of examples of actions taken in history that hurt entire groups of people. You've all described a bunch.

There are corporations around today that were founded on unethical business practices (slavery, Nazi money to name a few).

I think the problem is that when a country or a corporation does something illegal it should be punished. At the same time, what is "illegal" is defined by the country, and what is "legal" for a corporation can just be something the country never addressed.

When we talk of reparations, we want to punish a country or a corporations for something we now feel to be illegal, which our society once thought was completely legitimate.

There's no way to make it fair. If a country or corporation has to pay reparations now - where will it end? What amount of money is enough to cover the pain and suffering an entire culture imposed on another?

I don't like it, but I don't think reparations pass the logic test. We change our laws and our governments because we're (hopefully) trying to improve how we treat eachother. Slavery is illegal now - because enough people realized how wrong it was way back when. The same with child labor laws and our treatment of Native Americans. That has to be enough, otherwise we will forever be punished for the sins of our fathers.

And I know racism and sexism is out there. And we need to shame those who express their racists and sexist beliefs in public, and punish those who act against others in the name of racism or sexism ... just like every other crime that we as a society recognizes.

The only way we advance as a culture is to admit we were wrong, adjust our behavior accordingly and move on.

Well i guess im guilty of this you could say.

Iam armenian, and as few of you probably know in the early 20th century the ottoman turks commited a genocide against the armenians on the then Ottoman Empire. The Turkish government to this day refuses to say they ever did it.

I have taken part in protests and speeches against the turks actions.
No i was not directly invovled with the genocide (iam not 92 years old) but my family members were.

Glarg
Black people take history personally,Jewish people take history personaly, Hell American Indians are taking things too personally! and their getting angry at stuff that never even happened to them. I have somthing to say about all of this!

Honestly i think they have the right. We stole their whole damn country.

-Mod edit- (Ozoneocean) sorry penguin I joined your posts. I'm cracking down on any single line posts, also: simple replies to quotes, or statements with no support or argument.

most of what is today's civilization has done it. jerusalim, england, germany, russia, united states...there were probably other races that became extinct from genocide. I guess I should be angry too...since spain took my country for a little while, or like how they say it in the history book "colonized" and "civilized" the population. but you know what, I don't really give a damn. live today and die tommorrow, don't cry about the past.

I think its strange that people talk about history like its something that has no impact on our present condition.

History is where we come from, in more ways than one.

I don't think anyone is not from some culture that has stolen or mistreated another culture at one point or another in our history.

Funny how we keep doing it.