I used to be a huge Street Fighter fan. One time my friend and I dressed up like Ryu and Ken (with wigs, even) and started fighting each other at an arcade. However, over the past several years Capcom has showered Street Fighter fans with disappointment by mishandling this key franchise. It came to the point where if you were told there would be a new Street Fighter, you'd just assume it was a remake or crossover.

Well, not anymore. After a decade of farting on old sprites and repackaging them, Capcom has decided to make the next incremental step and give fans the sequel they've been wanting. Street Fighter 4 is coming to town. That's "IV" for all you snooty roman-numerals people.

Here's a video that Capcom showed at their conference:
http://www.gamesarefun.com/news.php?newsid=8397

What we see in the video is the only information we have on the game. It tells us the Ryu and Ken are back (Holy crap!!!) and that maybe the game is 3D. It's hard to tell if this is just a snazzy cinematic or if it's any indication of what the game's style will be like.

I'm sure a lot of Street Fighter fans are probably thinking "Oh no, if it's 3D it'll automatically be crappy!" Well, we don't know if it's 3D, but if it is, remember that the blame for the crappy previous 3D Street Fighters can possibly be blamed on Arika (the developer) and not the polygons themselves. And if it is 3D, I'm confident it will play as closely to its 2d predecessors as possible.

I'm excited for the game. It's due out in more than a year, so some time in late 2008.

I do hope that it's not a 3D fighting game. I'm not going to bitch and moan if it has 3d sprites, but I don't want it to control like a 3d fighter.

I hope it is a fully 3D fighter with the 3D models as seen in that trailer.

I used to be a big 2D fighting fan. But after playing 3D fighting games like Virtua Fighter 4 and Bushido Blade 1, I'm a convert. 3D is real fighting... or, realer than 2D fighting. There's nothing more to be done for 2D fighting, in terms of gaming innovation, other than making things faster, combos longer, and the tricks harder.

The teaser is just a cinematic, likely it's only the opening sequence you'd see in the arcade. You wouldn't be able to play a fighting game if the camera was all over the place like that, not to mention it's a little too choreographed for actual gameplay.

3D is real fighting... or, realer than 2D fighting.

That's a laugh. Some 3D games make an effort to be more true to life, others don't even try. Even the games you've listed stick pretty close to the 2D formula with most action still taking place on a single plane. It's kind of sad that some of the most "3D" fighters I've played used sprites and static 2D backgrounds. Besides, last time I checked Street Fighter was about solid and balanced gameplay, not realism. How realistic are people shooting fireballs, limbs stretching, flying sumo wrestlers and women spinning on their heads? Unfortunately, I also find most 3D fighters lack solid and balanced gameplay, favoring button mashing tactics over any real skill.

There's nothing more to be done for 2D fighting, in terms of gaming innovation, other than making things faster, combos longer, and the tricks harder.

That one's also pretty funny. Every genre has room for innovation and improvement.

Well, of course it's a cinematic. The question that remains is whether or not it's showing us that Street Fighter 4 will be 3D, or highly stylized, or Okami-like. Or is it just trying to look neat and we're getting another 2D fighting game?

I'd probably like the 3D more, but that's really just because the only fighting games I've ever really liked (Besides Smash Bros., which I'm pretty sure doesn't count since it's so different from any other fighting game) was the Soul Calibur series (Which is 3D), and I started that at SC2.

But that's mostly because I'm not good at 2D fighters. D:

The question that remains is whether or not it's showing us that Street Fighter 4 will be 3D, or highly stylized, or Okami-like. Or is it just trying to look neat and we're getting another 2D fighting game?

If it is the intro sequence, I have a feeling it is just supposed to look cool and really has no relation to how the game will look or play.

Now this is just hearsay, but rumor has it that Sony refuses to release a game on the PS3 that consists of primarily 2D graphics, and that's what was keeping Capcom from bothering with a Street Fighter IV for a long time. I get the feeling it's a bit more complex than that, but meh.

From what I hear, they only ever had that policy in the West. They have been getting a bit more relaxed on that policy in the past couple of years. I doubt the PS3 is any exception, particularly since Sony has been making their own 2D games for the system.

isukun
The teaser is just a cinematic, likely it's only the opening sequence you'd see in the arcade. You wouldn't be able to play a fighting game if the camera was all over the place like that, not to mention it's a little too choreographed for actual gameplay.

I meant the models, general motion, and art style, of course. For a 2008 game you know nobody would settle for less.

That's a laugh. Some 3D games make an effort to be more true to life, others don't even try. Even the games you've listed stick pretty close to the 2D formula with most action still taking place on a single plane.

That's a superficial way of looking at 2D vs 3D. "True-er" 3D fighting would be akin to those boxing games, but that doesn't make a hardcore fighting game. So "most action taking place on 1 plane" is a given.

What I'm talking about more is better perception of distance, direction, velocity. In a 3D fighting game, this situation can happen all the time:

X throws a right haymaker at Y. Y performs a clockwise spinning back kick at the same time. Because X is punching with his right, and because Y is spinning clockwise, Y's motion narrowly dodges the punch and his kick connects with X's right side, throwing X back in a certain way. And you can actually see it happening.

This never happens in a 2D fighter. Everything is 1-2 frames and static hit detection boxes. You throw a punch before he finishes his kick, it's gonna land on his face unless the kick was supposed to be a counter special move.

That is what 2D fighting fans want. They don't like the "looseness/unpredictability" my above description entails. They only want 1 type of knock-back animation, so they know what is happening. Fighting becomes less like fighting and more like real-time chess. But I think there's a happy medium that a lot of 3D fighting games have found, and 2D fighting games don't have it. Samurai Shodown had it in 2, then it lost it as it went more in line with other 2D fighters.

Someone
It's kind of sad that some of the most "3D" fighters I've played used sprites and static 2D backgrounds. Unfortunately, I also find most 3D fighters lack solid and balanced gameplay, favoring button mashing tactics over any real skill.

Dunno what you're bitter about. I'm not afraid to like new things.

There's nothing more to be done for 2D fighting, in terms of gaming innovation, other than making things faster, combos longer, and the tricks harder.

That one's also pretty funny. Every genre has room for innovation and improvement.

No, 2D fighting is done with revolutions; it has technical and format limitations. That's why the genre waned.

Wheres Street Fighter 3?

Whether it's in 2D or 3D, I'm still looking forward to this game. Like Hawk said, I too am a huge Street Fighter fan, from their stellar games to the Street Fighter II V anime series. I have the fullest respect towards Capcom and I'm very optimistic to see what they're going to unveil in the future not only with game but with many games to come.

It also seems that Street Fighter is manufacturing a comeback with a new live action movie in the beginning stages.

fern
It also seems that Street Fighter is manufacturing a comeback with a new live action movie in the beginning stages.

Uh-oh.
Is it an Asian movie or a Hollywood movie? If it's HW you can forgetaboutit.

mlai
Uh-oh.
Is it an Asian movie or a Hollywood movie? If it's HW you can forgetaboutit.

I think it's a hollywood movie, and this time starring Chun Li.

It'll never beat the SFII Animated Movie.

I'm a huge Street Fighter fan (I've got this to prove it), but I have to admit that the re-using of old sprites eventually started to tick me off a bit. If I see that a new game is comign out, I want to play that new game, and not a slightly altered version of a previous game.

As for the SF4 trailer (I'm assuming that's what it's called), it looks awesome, and I can only hope the game will be just as awesome. I wouldn't mind it being 3D, but it'd be quite a change, since SF's always pretty much been 2D.

I guess we'll just have to wait.

A HW movie about Chun Li... yeah and it'll prolly star what's-her-face from Charlie's Angels cuz HW ppl don't know any other Asian actresses, and it'll suck worse than Jean Claude's movie. Cuz at least you can laugh at Jean Claude (and weep at Raul Julia). And Catwoman. It'll suck worse than that too.

Honestly think about it: what kinda good story could possibly come of SF2? The only semi-independent work out of SF that had good storytelling was the Cammy Viz graphic novel by Masahiko Nakahira (what else has he done?). The animated movie had crap for story. SFV was excellent thru the 1st half then the entire cast developed Alzheimer's or something. The OAV had a fake brother and a freakin' robot instead of Akuma.

I really hope it doesn't use 2D sprites. Even if it's a 2D game I hope it uses really good 3D models with the art style shown in the promo.

Anyways SF will always be important to me because part of how I draw today came from Bengus & Akiman.

Rutger
I'm a huge Street Fighter fan (I've got this to prove it)

I'm jealous. : (

Rutger
As for the SF4 trailer (I'm assuming that's what it's called), it looks awesome

It reminds me of the work of Ashley Wood... very awe inspiring.

I've been waiting for this for years!

It's about time the premier fighting game makes a return. I'm confident in Capcom to make a good game. They've been on a roll lately.

Hoorah for Capcom!

X throws a right haymaker at Y. Y performs a clockwise spinning back kick at the same time. Because X is punching with his right, and because Y is spinning clockwise, Y's motion narrowly dodges the punch and his kick connects with X's right side, throwing X back in a certain way. And you can actually see it happening.

Except that isn't how most 3D games work. Instead, you have set hit boxes in 3D, just like in a 2D game, and predetermined hit sequences so combos and attacks work pretty much the same as they would in a 2D fighter. People don't move realistically or react as you would expect. It is increadibly common in 3D games that character can hit high and knock another character out of a low move and it cuts straight into the high hit animation from a crouch. In real life the move would miss, but the fighter isn't programmed that way. It's the same with throws that connect reguardless of how awkward the opponent's pose may be. 3D games use predefined animation and hit routines to give them more of that 2D fighter feel. Apart from games like Powerstone, very few 3D fighters actually make use of the extra dimension.

This never happens in a 2D fighter. Everything is 1-2 frames and static hit detection boxes. You throw a punch before he finishes his kick, it's gonna land on his face unless the kick was supposed to be a counter special move.

Actually, most 2D fighters don't have static hit boxes. They stretch and deform based on the character's stance and movement. Framerate is also not a limitation of the media. There are games where moves take more frames and animation is more fluid, it all depends on the amount of work put into the game or the approach. And I can say I have seen stuff like that happen in 2D fighters.

They don't like the "looseness/unpredictability" my above description entails.

Actually, my problem with 3D fighters is that they have become too predictable. The genre hasn't evolved since the original Virtua Fighter. Every game is the same button-masher-friendly, glued-to-the-ground, combo fest. They all play the same. I know when I play something like Arcana Heart, I'm going to get a very different style of gameplay than something like King of Fighters or Capcom's vs series, whereas if I play Soul Caliber, I could just as easily be playing Tekken, Dead or Alive, or Virtua Fighter instead and it would feel pretty close to the same. Unfotunately, the series which stray from that mold tend to die off.

You make some pretty valid points there, Isukun. All the major 3D fighting games seem to blend together to me... except that Soul Calibur stands out a little with the way its weapons work. But it made me really think about what I actually wanted from Street Fighter 4.

Initially I wanted an 2D fighting game much like we're used to but with HD sprites and all the best fighters from the series, all put together in one last hurrah that would end the series. But I remember seeing a graphic showing "Street Fighter IV: A New Beginning" which would imply that Capcom wants to not only bring the series back, but keep it going with some big differences. If that's the case, I hope we're not getting the same old Street Fighter. It needs to be something new and interesting enough to carry it further.

1: Soul Calibur is like Jesus, except compacted onto a disk and made better because it just is.

2: If this game is anything like Soul Calibur, then *fap fap fap fap fap fap fap fap*

3: Lol, I know the original ones aren't, so don't come on here all like "Street Fighter am not liek SC."

4: Srsly, don't do it.

5: I'll hurt you.

If they do make it a 3D fighting game, I don't think they'd call it Street Fighter 4. They've done 3D streetfighters before, and they didn't add them as part of the main canon because, quite simply, it was a different game. I think that the 4 tells us that this game is going to be in the vein of "true" Street Fighter games. How they handle the graphics is anyone's guess, but I trust Capcom to do it right.

isukun
Except that isn't how most 3D games work. Instead, you have set hit boxes in 3D, just like in a 2D game,

Nope, not just like a 2D game. Why? Because the hit boxes are in 3D. Same as the attacks.
A simple little thing like that makes a world of difference, even tho both use the principle of hit boxes and canned moves.

Someone
People don't move realistically or react as you would expect.

Much more than 2D games.

Someone
It is increadibly common in 3D games that character can hit high and knock another character out of a low move and it cuts straight into the high hit animation from a crouch.

There are crap 3D games just like there are crap 2D games.

Someone
In real life the move would miss, but the fighter isn't programmed that way. It's the same with throws that connect reguardless of how awkward the opponent's pose may be.

And that's why most 3D games have different throw animations for different facings now. It's gradual improvement. 2D still doesn't have that, because it can't.

Someone
3D games use predefined animation and hit routines to give them more of that 2D fighter feel.

Like I already said, 3D games can find that happy medium, whereas 2D games can't even try to.

Someone
Actually, most 2D fighters don't have static hit boxes. They stretch and deform based on the character's stance and movement.

Yes, in 2D. Big difference.

Someone
Framerate is also not a limitation of the media.

LOL. It's a HUGE limitation, where 2D sprites are involved. Harder to make, harder to store cheaply, harder everything. Polygons can do everything 2D sprites can better and cheapter, in terms of fighting games.

Someone
And I can say I have seen stuff like that happen in 2D fighters.

I have 2 Saturns, a Dreamcast, and a Neo Geo. And joysticks for each. Why? Fighting games. 2D fighting games. My non-bargain-bin library consisted of nothing but 2D fighting games. I know what I'm talking about too.

Someone
Actually, my problem with 3D fighters is that they have become too predictable. The genre hasn't evolved since the original Virtua Fighter.

ROFLMAO.
Why do you exaggerate? I don't exaggerate to make a point.

Someone
Every game is the same button-masher-friendly, glued-to-the-ground, combo fest.

3D fighters are more than just Tekken and VF, just like 2D is more than SF2/3 and KOF. Games like Virtua On and DBZ are 3D fighters too. Even without going to those extremes, UFC fighters are 3D fighters too.

Someone
I know when I play something like Arcana Heart, I'm going to get a very different style of gameplay than something like King of Fighters or Capcom's vs series,

They're all the same. 2D movement. 2D physical attacks. 2D projectiles. Space control. Combos. Cancels. The minutiae change but the feel never does. Samurai Shodown and the Marvel Capcom series were the last ones to really shake things up.

Someone
whereas if I play Soul Caliber, I could just as easily be playing Tekken, Dead or Alive, or Virtua Fighter instead and it would feel pretty close to the same.

Tekken, DoA, and VF are the 3 "orthodox" 3D fighter series. So yes they feel the same in general. Just as much as SF3 and Mark of the Wolves "feel the same."

Someone
Unfotunately, the series which stray from that mold tend to die off.

3D is trying to find that happy medium. Because there are still ppl clamoring for 2D fighter familiarity, often 3D fighters stay conservative and emulate 2D gameplay, but enriching the experience a bit with restrained 3D elements. Case in point is VF series.

Nope, not just like a 2D game. Why? Because the hit boxes are in 3D. Same as the attacks.

Doesn't matter. The way games are programmed, hit boxes are expanded so a forward attack will alway connect with an opponent in front of you. As I said before, a hit doesn't have to be "on target" to launch the hit routine and force a character's model into the right position for a combo. The way it works in game is exactly like a 2D fighter.

Much more than 2D games.

Not from my experience.

There are crap 3D games just like there are crap 2D games.

I won't deny that, that still doesn't change the underlying foundation in 3D games. The problem I'm referring to is near universal in 3D fighters. Bushido Blade is the only one I'veseen which doesn't do that and that is because the game went out of it's way to be realstic, including having area specific damage. Much like other games that strayed from the standard, though, the franchise didn't survive.

And that's why most 3D games have different throw animations for different facings now. It's gradual improvement. 2D still doesn't have that, because it can't.

Actually, 2D games have had that since before there were 3D fighters. You don't see it often in 2D fighters because characters usually autocorrect their facing if their opponent switches sides. And quite honestly, that isn't even an example of gradual improvement for 3D fighters as that's been there from the beginning.

LOL. It's a HUGE limitation, where 2D sprites are involved. Harder to make, harder to store cheaply, harder everything. Polygons can do everything 2D sprites can better and cheapter, in terms of fighting games.

The doujin community makes far more quality 2D fighters than 3D. Somehow, 2D games are still cheaper and easier to make among fans than 3D. Plus, despite your claims, 2D fighters are still big sellers in Japanese arcades. There were more 2D fighters hitting the arcades last year than 3D. In addition, all three of the major developers known for 2D fighting games (Capcom, SNK, and Sammy) are STILL developing 2D fighters for the arcade. As for the framerate, animation can be made smoother through means other than drawing extra frames. Games like the Rumble Fish and Odin Sphere prove that.

Why do you exaggerate? I don't exaggerate to make a point.

Neither do I.

They're all the same. 2D movement. 2D physical attacks. 2D projectiles. Space control. Combos. Cancels.

Sounds a lot like your average 3D fighter, as well. Players sidestep to avoid attacks or change planes, but that can be done in many 2D figters as well. The only real differences I see are that 3D fighters punish players who jump, tend to be slower, and the moveset in 3D games tend to pass off combos as individual moves.

3D is trying to find that happy medium.

There is no "happy medium" in this case. 3D fighters are not that far removed fom their predecessors and their differences are not due to an extra dimension.

isukun
The way games are programmed, hit boxes are expanded so a forward attack will alway connect with an opponent in front of you. As I said before, a hit doesn't have to be "on target" to launch the hit routine and force a character's model into the right position for a combo. The way it works in game is exactly like a 2D fighter.

Those are the 3D games that strive to control more like 2D as I mentioned. There are also 3D games where the hit boxes are in 3D, and they're not that rare or fringe.

Someone
Not from my experience.

You have a lot of knowledge in games and anime, but in this case I know this genre, by experience if not by knowledge of game hardware/technology. I lived and breathed it. I'm not going to go back and forth with you on "I know more." I'm sure there are 2D vs 3D debates in dedicated forums, and maybe you know of some good threads.

Someone
Actually, 2D games have had that since before there were 3D fighters.

Huh, name me one mainstream 2D fighter with different facing throws.

Someone
And quite honestly, that isn't even an example of gradual improvement for 3D fighters as that's been there from the beginning.

Not to the extent as now.

Someone
Somehow, 2D games are still cheaper and easier to make among fans than 3D.

I'm definitely not going to go back and forth with you on whether sprites are cheapter/easier. It's hardware fact that sprite games like SF3/MotW is harder to produce.

Someone
Games like the Rumble Fish and Odin Sphere prove that.

I know what they do in Princess/Odin and it's awesome. More 2D sprite games should do it.

Someone
The only real differences I see are that 3D fighters punish players who jump, tend to be slower, and the moveset in 3D games tend to pass off combos as individual moves.

LOL, basically more like real life. A big reason I like 3D fighters is that they have the luxury to be more real while 2D fighters just get more and more ridiculous. Oh please don't argue about what is more real.
While it's a different general emphasis, the thing is that a 3D fighter can do what 2D fighters do also (in general principles not in minutiae), if it wants to.

There is no "happy medium" in this case. 3D fighters are not that far removed fom their predecessors and their differences are not due to an extra dimension.

Like I said, if you want to continue this you should just link to a dedicated forum thread from elsewhere, where I'm sure this had been beaten to death.

They should rename the Game Room "Mlai and Isukun's Debate Forum".

Huh, name me one mainstream 2D fighter with different facing throws.

Most mainstream 2D fighters don't employ a system without autocorrection for facing. This is usually done to keep the game fast paced and fairly even. Such a system is not impossible in 2D, however, and is frequently used in 2D wrestling games (which are pretty much just fighting games with a heavier emphasis on grapples). It's a hold over from the 2D brawlers which would also often have multidirectional throws. A good example of this occuring in a single plane 2D game would be Saturday Night Slam Masters.

Not to the extent as now.

And what extent would that be? Either it's in the game or it isn't and quite honestly, the original Virtua Fighter had seperate throws for opponents facing the front and back as well as throws for standing and crouching.

It's hardware fact that sprite games like SF3/MotW is harder to produce.

No it's not. Simply stating it doesn't erase the programming/troubleshooting involved in making 3D games. There is a lot more work that needs to be done on the technical side just to get 3D fighters to work. It isn't as simple as slapping a 3D model into a game. Don't plan out the moves and reaction animations properly and the game will look bad or worse, glitches in the system will ruin the gameplay. These are much easier fixes in a 2D game. Plus animation is not as difficult a process as you seem to think. I could pretty easily throw together a 2D sprite with basic moves, standing, walking, dashing, and jump animation, all running at 30fps in about a week. I've been contemplating making a 2D fighter, myself, but I haven't had the time to really invest in the project as of yet. Maybe after Thanksgiving.

LOL, basically more like real life.

Not really more realistic, just a different approach. I can think of plenty of aspects of this approach which are just as unrealistic as the 2D alternatives. And really, none of these elements are things that CAN'T be duplicated in 2D.

Since I don't think anybody else here cares, I say we both stop wasting our time. Again, if you want to point me to other threads on this topic in dedicated forums (I'm sure you do visit them... I've pretty much quit that loop nowadays), that'll be good enough.

mlai
Since I don't think anybody else here cares, I say we both stop wasting our time. Again, if you want to point me to other threads on this topic in dedicated forums (I'm sure you do visit them... I've pretty much quit that loop nowadays), that'll be good enough.

I dunno. I was actually kind of interested.

marine
Wheres Street Fighter 3?

I was serious.