I've seen this topic creep into other threads so I thinks it's time to have its own. Most of us would probably say that stereotypes suck, and they do. Though I would say there's a different side to the coin as well, I've encountered writers that do everything they can to avoid sterotypes, cliches or whatever. Sort of like creating an Anti-Sue so you won't have a Mary-Sue. I think tossing stereotypes and cliches out entirely can actually make your writing suffer. But what do you guys think?

I love working with cliches. Many people get the jokes you do when you use a cliche in it. My smart girl is built like a board, wears glasses and has braided pigtails, making her a stereotype in many respects, and people recognize it. Then again, I mess with that constant by making her trailer trash with a substandard computer. She may be pretty bright but, aside from her hair and glasses, doesn't really walk and talk the part, wearing hand-me-downs and not using many big words in her speech.

Messing with stereotypes is fun and I think both easier and more satisfying to do than trying to avoid it. If somebody says "But this character falls into such-and-such a stereotype!" like it's a complaint, you can throw the ball right back at them with the phrase: "That's the idea."

As for "Anti-Sues", I've heard they're considered a Mary-Sue class of their own.

The reality is all characters are at least part-stereotype. It's a variation on the classic argument that there are only 3 (or 4 or 6, depending on your source) types of story. The trick is to take your stereotype and add just enough of a twist to make it your own.

Take the fantasy genre, for example. Since Tolkien popularised it, there have been countless imitators who have created a party with the lithe elf, the bruising warrior and the surly dwarf. Oh and a token female of some race or other who probably has healing spells or something equally passive. Without straying too far from the genre conventions, you could easily create a story in which the dwarf is the jolly companion and the elf the more likely to go blundering headlong into trouble. Maybe you could even include a female explosives expert. (Hmmm - I might use that!)

Often stereotypes are there for a reason - they work. Particularly in genre fiction, therefore, throwing them out completely can be a mistake. I tend to think the key is to recognise what the stereotypical features are and then make very deliberate decisions about which aspects you want to keep and how much (or how little) you change the others.

DAJB
Take the fantasy genre, for example. Since Tolkien popularised it, there have been countless imitators who have created a party with the lithe elf, the bruising warrior and the surly dwarf. Oh and a token female of some race or other who probably has healing spells or something equally passive.

I actually fixed that with a surly elf and a passive warrior, but kept the healing lady for kicks (And kidnap bait)

Kohdok

DAJB
Take the fantasy genre, for example. Since Tolkien popularised it, there have been countless imitators who have created a party with the lithe elf, the bruising warrior and the surly dwarf. Oh and a token female of some race or other who probably has healing spells or something equally passive.

I actually fixed that with a surly elf and a passive warrior, but kept the healing lady for kicks (And kidnap bait)

Fair enough. Every party needs its kidnap bait!
;)

It seems that many people confuse stereotype [en.wikipedia.org]with archetype [en.wikipedia.org].

One thing I hate about stereotypes is how the "rebel" is always cool and the hero while the "jock/cheerleader" is popular and a jerk.

This thing about stereotypes and going against them has become another stereotype in itself.

I have just seen WAY too many comics like this, where the rebel wins against the jock. It's getting really annoying and boring.

mapaghimagsik
It seems that many people confuse stereotype [en.wikipedia.org]with archetype [en.wikipedia.org].

that is more of a slight semantical distinction, the distinction being one negative while the other positive and of genus and species.

I dunno Midge... Archetypes are something a bit bigger, more broad and general than stereotypes. It's not just positive and negative... I like your idea about "genus and species" though. I don't know if this should be discussed in the debate forum though, seems more like a literature topic to me.

Whatcha' think?

I agree...

I love avoiding stereotypes! I think it makes for more interesting writing potentials. I started my comic by making my main character gay just so I can show people you can do a comic with a gay character without seeming so...gay!

I definitely agree that if you're coming up with an orginal character puting them in a sterotyped role as a protagonist is probably not such a hot idea. I'd still dispute that if you're doing satire you may want to play up stereotypes more, (more to make fun of that way!)

My main characters are based loosely on real people, and some of their traits -- especially ones that feel over the top or stereotyped -- are actually modeled after real life. (In fact, I had to tone down some of that stuff to make the characters believable. Oh, the irony... )

Aside from the "toning down," I neither avoid nor aim at stereotypes. I just write my characters as they are and the situations and actions are just as they appear in my head. Honestly, I simply don't think about cliches. I do however reread pages/scripts and change things that don't feel "real" or "natural."

I believe that if you think about 'persons' and their characters/personalities instead of fearing whether you are following or avoiding a cliche/stereotype, you almost never fall into the trap of making cardboard, two-dimensional characters- which is basically what a stereotype is.

...though I must admit when I started writing my fantasy trilogy, among other things there was a dangerous gleam in my eyes about how I could scandalously, shamelessly and rakishly completely diconstruct all the archetypes within the fantasy genre, starting with the elves and dragons (I'm especially proud of my dragons [theartofveiling.gr]... hehehehe!). To this date no reader has expected to meet with them the way I have made them be ;) heh.

So avoiding stereotypes can be a fun and refreshing thing to do, if you know how to do ir right.

Depends, Sterotypes and Cliches can some times build a character, but most of the time writers and artist take it to far, making deadly Mary-Sues.

I just write whatever I like. Whatever makes the characters and story flow in the manner required at that point.

If it happens to be cliche or stereotypical then that is just the way it will have to be. I don't sit around "trying" to be or not be either of these. Sometimes I'll be original, sometimes a stereotype is useful.

I also don't see what the big deal is about Mary Sues. Many shows and movies I enjoy have them =P In fact they usually do well on a public scale.

Keeping stereotypes around is a good thing
it highlights the truly creative people, while exposing the cookie cutter comic artists/writers

As was mentioned above, people really are somewhat stereotypical, at least at their core. These stereotypes exist for a reason, after all. They exist because people noticed certain traits in particular people. The people who fall under the 'nerd' crowd are frequently overweight and wearing glasses, because they do activities that are generally more sedentary and eye-straining. Certainly not every nerd does that, but enough do that the two are associated.

In general, like others said, I don't worry about it. Avoiding stereotypes can make your work less believable. People that don't behave like anything familiar are... well, unfamiliar.

I'm watching Naruto and I've noticed a villain stereotype device the author just loves.

Immediately before/after a villain is defeated, there will always be a flashback about the villain, in order to humanize him. Sometimes for the story. Sometimes for no good reason whatsoever.

I mean, it's cool the first time you see it. But by the 99th villain, the "Before I die, you will be treated to a mandatory flashback of my sad childhood" gets really annoying.

I still think it's a good device. But you gotta come up with fresh and more understated ways of using it.

Immediately before/after a villain is defeated, there will always be a flashback about the villain, in order to humanize him. Sometimes for the story. Sometimes for no good reason whatsoever.

I mean, it's cool the first time you see it. But by the 99th villain, the "Before I die, you will be treated to a mandatory flashback of my sad childhood" gets really annoying.

lol thanks for pointing it out.

But thats what actually made me like Naruto. Villains need to be humanized somehow. Like seriously. In the news. The "bad guys" need to be humanized too... :(

Other cliches I "like"

1) Good guy gets nearly killed... then reawakens either because of a new undiscovered power, or because of the inspiration of someone or something else... like a girlfriend... or a new "philosophy"... lol And when he's reawakened, he's suddenly pumped up and ass-kicking ability increases 100x.

2) "Haha... That isnt my real power yet... I'm just warming up, buddy..." Then the hero/villain gets faster, stronger, and ass-kickery increases by maybe 10x.

3) Hero gets pounded in such a way that can kill a normal human. Loses lots of blood... gets his face deformed... then still manages to win the fight.

kyupol
Other cliches I "like"
1) Good guy gets nearly killed... then reawakens either because of a new undiscovered power, or because of the inspiration of someone or something else... like a girlfriend... or a new "philosophy"... lol And when he's reawakened, he's suddenly pumped up and ass-kicking ability increases 100x.
2) "Haha... That isnt my real power yet... I'm just warming up, buddy..." Then the hero/villain gets faster, stronger, and ass-kickery increases by maybe 10x.
3) Hero gets pounded in such a way that can kill a normal human. Loses lots of blood... gets his face deformed... then still manages to win the fight.

LOL! Check, check, and check! I'm so proud of myself I've managed to include all 3 cliches in the chapter I'm currently drawing. Didn't manage to include the "humanizing flashback," but I'll get around to that.

kyupol
you will love my comics as they progress then ^_^

And here I was feeling bad about using those cliches =P

Though I will play around with them a bit at times as well.

Now I look forward to the chapter you are drawing more mlai!

There's something about that cliche in action/fighting stories that is never tiring for me!

What about...

When the hero gets into a tight spot... lets say he gets surrounded by 1000 enemy troops and there is no way he can fight them. Either a mysterious power awakens or something comes to save him. Like the air support. lol!

AND WHAT ABOUT DRAMA CLICHES?

Anybody here can tell me about them? Thanks.

kyupol
AND WHAT ABOUT DRAMA CLICHES?

Anybody here can tell me about them? Thanks.

~The sudden reappearance of a long lost relative.
~Appearence of someone thought dead.
~Romantic rivals at each others' throats and common love interests fanning the flames (intentionally or not).
~A potential love pairing both interested in each other but not getting together due to misunderstandings, fear of rejection, or some tragic past event leaving one or both afraid of getting close to someone.
~Former friends become arch nemeses
~Former nemeses become best friends
~Amnesia

(I've been guilty of those things. :nervous: )

usedbooks

kyupol
AND WHAT ABOUT DRAMA CLICHES?

Anybody here can tell me about them? Thanks.

~The sudden reappearance of a long lost relative.
~Appearence of someone thought dead.
~Romantic rivals at each others' throats and common love interests fanning the flames (intentionally or not).
~A potential love pairing both interested in each other but not getting together due to misunderstandings, fear of rejection, or some tragic past event leaving one or both afraid of getting close to someone.
~Former friends become arch nemeses
~Former nemeses become best friends
~Amnesia

(I've been guilty of those things. :nervous: )

Don't forget the good ol' terminal illness! That's a soap-opera classic next to the long lost relative.

Yeah, I didn't list stuff I haven't done (yet...)

~Coma
~"I have a son?"
~Near death experience leads to spiritual enlightenment or romantic advancement. ("Life is short, so we must get married now!" )
~Changing names/identities
~Evil twin (okay, I sorta have done this...)
~Some kind of hypnosis or mind control (puppets for assassination or whatever)

Is a psychotic freak-out a cliche?
Because I love a good freak-out.

usedbooks
Yeah, I didn't list stuff I haven't done (yet...)

~Coma
~"I have a son?"
~Near death experience leads to spiritual enlightenment or romantic advancement. ("Life is short, so we must get married now!" )
~Changing names/identities
~Evil twin (okay, I sorta have done this...)
~Some kind of hypnosis or mind control (puppets for assassination or whatever)

Whoops! Check on a few of those!

Also:

- Race against the clock with impossible odds on a life or death risk
- Go through impossible feats and breakthroughs in medicine on the span of mere days
- Dramatic, heartfelt suicide notes (nope, none of those here!) :whistling:
- Altruism and self sacrifice galore!
- Psychotic freak out, but tempered with sinister intelligence! (yes, SarahN, it's a cliche and its delicious ;) )
- Sudden death and need for revenge
- Main character guilt trips for aforementioned deaths.
- Severe depression to the point the main character sits in a corner to die
- Severe manhandling of depressed character until he/she snaps out of it and comes back twice as strong


...and many more. I think I added some spoilers in this post. Maybe ;)