It has been my experience, and judging from reading other people's comics, that starting a comic is often the hardest part of a comic. After the first 100 pages are so you can stop having your character turn to the camera and explain things, start twisting the plot, tease your audiance memebers with hints etc. etc. because now the audiance has some history and interest. However the first 10 pages of many comics can be particularly rough and filled with tripe and cliche.

Waaaaay to often I see awful starts to comics that are not bad comics.

The worst are:

1. The comic starts as a silly comedy then suddenly switches to a drama bringing a long a lot of left overs from when things were silly.

2. Several pages of opening narration, this is extra bad when the narrartion is set on an almost featureless background.

3. Long pages of characters doing nothing like walking around without dialog etc. etc. to build "mood".

4. The author spends to much time introducing things and waits to long for something interesting to happen. (Personally I subscribe to the Terantino(SP) style of action now explain later after you have people's attention phylosophy when a better idea isn't readily apparent.)

5. They start of the comic focusing on a side character much, much less interesting then the main character they will introduce later, who is setting up some sort of plot devise.

What are thoughts on starting a comics? Any examples of comics that started off well and drew you in from page 1?

Umm... I would know from personal experience that starting a comic is hard. I used to have a really hard time trying to fit a joke into a 3-4 panel strip. Don't know how I fixed it, but I did.

A comic that drew me in since page 1?

Tera Forming (I did watch the comic right after the 1st page)
Edgar Allan Poo
I think "Allan" drew me in too (can't remember if I saw it's first page or not)
NightFallen (even if he doesn't update much)
Whacked!
Zorphbert and Fred.

All my comics are terrible when it comes to opening pages. I normally always have a fight scene, then introduce the characters and stuff after the fight scene. I love making action packed starts to comics.

Comics that drew me in after one page:

Star Crossed Destiny
Spirit's Magic
Random Stupidity

In order for a comic to draw you in on page 1, it has to have awesome or innovative art. That's what the art is for.

Drawing you in after page 100 is what the story is for.

Of course, if you can manage to find a story premise that is awesome and innovative right off the bat, and draws the reader in from page 1 (or at least chapter 1), then you've got something going.

If your story is another "elves with swords" or "galactic war" story, and you're screaming "But wait I have great innovative surprises in store on page 100! But wait, my world is really fleshed out and my characters are interesting!" Well, GL. All those good points won't appear on page 1, so your art had better be sterling.

I actually employed a little trick with my Fight 2. At first glance, F2 is all shiny with better art than Fight 1, so you'd think F2 carries the weight of the pair of stories. But no, F2 is actually slower and less wacky than F1, so it's F1 that's carrying in the beginning, IMO. I'm compensating for the weakness of a slower story by making it the companion of a faster story, while drawing from its strength of allowing more mood-building.

Evil Emperor Nick
What are thoughts on starting a comics? Any examples of comics that started off well and drew you in from page 1?

Something Positive [somethingpositive.net] ... that first joke/gag was strong enough to both set the tone of the entire series, and keep me coming back for years worth of strips.

2. Several pages of opening narration, this is extra bad when the narrartion is set on an almost featureless background.

4. The author spends to much time introducing things and waits to long for something interesting to happen.

Guilty of both... um in a way.

I couldn't figure out a good way to really start my comic. So I made 2 1st issues that are totally separate stories and can be read in either order. Now that didn't translate well in webcomic so the stuff that "technically" happened 1st is shown 1st. So in that issue the comic starts off very explosive and later things are explained.

I chose to make a "character writes in diary" for the opening of my other 1st issue.

My biggest pet peeve about 1st issues are the explanations that are just text! No pictures at all. Just a book or something. I rarely read all that stuff in REAL comics that have already sold me.

mlai
If your story is another "galactic war" story, and you're screaming "But wait I have great innovative surprises in store on page 100! But wait, my world is really fleshed out and my characters are interesting!" Well, GL. All those good points won't appear on page 1, so your art had better be sterling.

Are you talking to me? =P jk

I could have started off after my prologue with stuff much more interesting. But I am the kind of person that likes the slower build up formulas.

In fact, your FIGHT comics are the only comics I have ever started reading since their 1st posting. And that is not only because I like your art, but for the fact I had read many posts on the way you wright and develop and you had given me help as well. I like the way you tell a story and I knew it would be good in the long run.

I like getting into a story then I go back and see all the events that built up to the interesting things that are going on.

Too often do stories come out with great flash and eye candy yet cannot deliver a well tied together story or character roster.

I wouldn't call 3 or 4 mistakes at all...

3. Long pages of characters doing nothing like walking around without dialog etc. etc. to build "mood".

4. The author spends to much time introducing things and waits to long for something interesting to happen.

Actually, I hardly see them in comics online. What I mostly see is the creators rushing to tell the story as quick as possible. Although trying to introduce too much at the beginning is a problem, more often I see creators not giving their characters any real introduction, but instead rushing right into the drama before the readers really care about the characters. I have no problem with a little splash of action at the beginning, but before you get into your plot in earnest, you have to establish your characters at least a little.

As for 3, I wish I could see more of this in comics. I've been watching a lot of indie asian cinema recently, and its taught me that these mundane moments can be a whole lot more effective at saying stuff about the character than dialog can be.

SteveMyers22
Something Positive [somethingpositive.net] ... that first joke/gag was strong enough to both set the tone of the entire series, and keep me coming back for years worth of strips.

Oh jesus lord god, thanks for posting that link, I just had the loudest laugh of the entire day right here.

Anyway, I think a lot of the problems described in this thread are perfect proof for one of my favorite pet theories - a lot of people have good ideas for scenarios, it's turning them into interesting stories that's the hard part. The way I've gone about opening up Bulletproof was certainly totally ass-backwards, but when you have little experience in scripting stories, you simply don't know where to start.

Exzachly
I wouldn't call 3 or 4 mistakes at all...

3. Long pages of characters doing nothing like walking around without dialog etc. etc. to build "mood".

4. The author spends to much time introducing things and waits to long for something interesting to happen.

Don't worry I'll call them mistakes for you, though you are welcome to disagree I assure you they are listed as mistakes with good reason.

*warning going into artistic rant*

The time to build mood isn't in the first few pages of your comic. That is the time to grab the interest of a very fickel audiance. I'm glad you brought this up because I think your bring up the very reason these opens happen so much and are frequently bad. These are comics, and I can't stress this enough comics are NOT movies.

Comics can have cinematic qualities and frequently do with excellent results but that is not the same thing. You see movies have sound. Sound effects and music or lack there of can make nothing scenes very mood building and intense. Additionally a movies don't have to sell themselves right off that bat, that is what trailers of for so they can afford to build slowly. Even books for the most part of the luxury of playing you, because most people will read at least the first few chapters before they give up on a book. In most medium people get the whole thing at once or at least a large portion of the content. A story might be broken up into 3 books or movies but each one has a huge part of it. Comics are more like TV. We can have a whole long story but we are forced to give it in small chucks and always be aware of the fact that our audiance might be there for the next installment. As such we have some different standards, advantages, and limitations that come with this medium that are not found in others.

Additionally both those effects, when they work, are far more effective later after your audiances are hooked and willing to give you a little slack. The hero dramatically fighting the villian and suddenly having a moment of moral or plot clarity is a effect often used in film & comics to great effect as well as awful cliche regardless though it is probably not a good way to start your comic 99% of the time even if it has its place later. If comic creators have this problem in print when the can give you a full comic to look at for you first takes think of how much harder it is for web comics which typically take anywhere from 2 to 5 months to cover the same material. That is asking a lot of your audiance for the sake of mood. A lot of times people seem to rationalize things like this away by saying "well when people read it all together it will work" which I've found is rarely the case.

Consider point 4 in movies. In a movie the director bring the audiance in with a nice slow opening people just talking, making jokes, and giving their names for the audiance. Suddenly the music spikes, there is a loud noise, one man shoots the other. The audiance jumps and leaps with surprise. In comics it doesn't go that way. We might be surprised when we turn the page but often not because we read at our own pace. As such we have time to think about things before we turn pages and rescan pages for clues. That level of reaction takes exceptional art & well crafted suspense and even with all that once your audiance knows you can do that, they look for it and expect it.

Now comics have their own tool for impact like the fill page spread for effect and our greatest advantage panels & panel lay out. There so much that looks good or has a bold effect in comics that wouldn't translate well into other mediums. Comics have a greater control over the flow of time etc. etc.

There is of course ways to do all these things right in a way that works for comics. Look at Alen Moore's Watchmen which features a slow build, but it does so by presenting the reader with a mystery, in essence delivering you the crux of plot front and center so you'll travel with Moore on a slow journey durring the first issue to slowly establish the setting of the world he has created. He saves the slow long scene investitation for a few pages down the line once he has you interested. In short he starts the comic off with a bang on page one even thought the page itself is rather slow. *BLAM: WHO KILLED X AND WHY?* then slowly builds up the mystery with small clues making the slow scene tention building and relevant. If Alen more had two character talking about X prior to him being killed it would have been far less effective an opening.

On the subject of cinematicI thought the death of Captain America in Universe X was extreamly well done with the narration "singing" the battle hymm of the Republic if I remember correctly over the scene was extreamly cinematic in a way I've rearely seen reproduced in comics.

Try watching some of these films you've enjoyed with the sound off and subtitles on and see if you don't feel differently afterwards.

It seems to more often then no not people open their comics this way because they don't have an idea rather then that really thought this was the best way to open their comic, or just as frequently because they liked the effect in another work and hoped to be able to use it in their comic to equal effect and come up short. I simply suggest I've found that when I don't have a inspired and truely excellent way to begin and an otherwise good comic that it is better er on the side of action. Naturally some will disagree due to their artistic tastes but I think most people will find a little jump start better then a fizzled opening if you had to choose between the two.

a lot of people have good ideas for scenarios, it's turning them into interesting stories that's the hard part

Wow that is an excellent point. I agree part of the reasons opens are frequently rough is people's in experience, all the more reason though for people to stear away from openings that are very difficult to do well when they first start out.

Evil Emperor Nick
1. The comic starts as a silly comedy then suddenly switches to a drama bringing a long a lot of left overs from when things were silly.

I like to think that comics that when the autor doest that it's bcase of an innate desire to tell storyes.
That the autor decided to use his/her characters and setting for something more than just random gags and fooling around.

5. They start of the comic focusing on a side character much, much less interesting then the main character they will introduce later, who is setting up some sort of plot devise.

*feels guilty* (for the MAG-ISA comic... except this "Giant Rat" could be important... lol)

If you hate that kind of stuff start your comic right in the middle of something. Like they did: http://www.drunkduck.com/Beginnings/index.php?p=35859

When I see a webcomic open with just 1000-words text on black, unless I am already psyched to read it, I won't even give it a chance.

==============
@JNP:
There are off-putting cliches other than galactic war, and off-putting cinematic devices which requires a certain reader frame of mind. A jittery reader can click out of a webcomic at the slightest hint of anything that rubs them the wrong way. Even when drawing chapter 1 of FIGHT 2, I was thinking "Oh god I have a girl with a big sword on page 3... they're so all gonna leave..." That's why I needed FIGHT 1 as a crutch during chapter 1...
==============

I agree with both Exzachly and with EEN. I want the visceral opening hook. But I also want the sweeping LOTR cinematic camera panning opener. That's why I did my trick.

Of course there are ways to get both the hook and the sweeping camera in 1 story. Most often the technique I see is a sweeping introduction of an inherently gripping subject, such as a great war or whatever, or as EEN said, with a murder in Watchmen. Problem is, you're not the first person to think this. All appropriate scenarios have been so overused by now. And it's only appropriate if it fits the story you want to tell.

So I try another route and trust in my skills.

On the subject of using music (lyrics) in comics... I guess it's not done more because of copyright issues. But I love using it. So far I've only used lyrics as a poetic narration of the plot (finding a song which corresponds with the events). The hard part is using only song genres you know that character would approve of. But I'm also planning to use lyrics to describe character inner states, as well as introduce some obscure music genres to the reader.

Good topic... I rambled a lot... ...

I dunno... Honestly I tried to get into both Fight 1 and Fight 2 because of your personality on the forums and because of Alejkhan's recommendation. But in both cases I couldn't stay with them. They weren't badly done at all, it was just that the idea wasn't my thing, the premise I mean. And what I saw didn't make the premise my thing. No criticism of you or your comic, or even your writing or your art!

But I suppose it's another thing to consider: You have a premise that the comic is based around or that you're selling the comic as. How do you convince people to give it a chance and stick with it even if the premise isn't that interesting to the readers?

-Say it's about war, one on one combat, romantic relationships, baseball, whatever. What can you do to get people to give the thing a chance and stick with it even if those things aren't their thing? I'm not sure myself and I don't think I'm particularly successful at this aspect either. I try and use colourful artwork, sexy imagery, occasional stabs at humour. But like I said, I'm not very good at that aspect.

Someone that is good at this I think is the guy that does Blackout Drunk : The characters and the situations are frankly repellent. The plot is dead-end and slow. But with their actions, the humour, the art, I can always come back to it and stay interested enough to read all the updates I've missed.

Someone who is even better at it is the guy behind Craving Control (no link needed). Frankly I find it uninteresting and it doesn't hold my attention at all, I don't go back to it. BUT, it a HELL of a lot of people do, they're fanatic about it. He has the specific fetish interest of "vore", the general interest in eating and body image, and the young male interest in big tits. It didn't grab me, but I KNOW it works and he's made a brilliantly successful comic that way. a praiseworthy achievement to have mastered this aspect so well.

ozoneocean
I dunno... Honestly I tried to get into both Fight 1 and Fight 2 because of your personality on the forums and because of Alejkhan's recommendation.

Oh, Alej read F1/F2? Cool. I don't think he comments but I'm glad to know he likes them enough to recommend.

But in both cases I couldn't stay with them. They weren't badly done at all, it was just that the idea wasn't my thing, the premise I mean.

Is there a specific reason?

So, is it you don't like sci-fi? Or you don't like fan characters (even if you don't know who they are)? You don't like character plays which take place in isolated settings (like, you like big cities big backstories etc)? Is it anything I can actually correct?

Someone
You have a premise that the comic is based around or that you're selling the comic as. How do you convince people to give it a chance and stick with it even if the premise isn't that interesting to the readers?

Well you already answered it: Your art has to be kick ass. Make the reader stick around long enough to finally say, "You know, I thought I was tired of elves with swords but this isn't half bad."

Or, as you said, you cater to what you guess your target audience wants... boys kissing each other, big boobs and big guns, bloody action, lots of emo... in addition to your premise. That could backfire, though. I don't like to think that way when writing; I oppose writing for hits rather than for the story.

Someone
I try and use colourful artwork, sexy imagery, occasional stabs at humour. But like I said, I'm not very good at that aspect.

I think at some point, you have to stay faithful to yourself. Can't please everybody, and that doesn't mean those you can't please are bad/ignorant ppl.

He has the specific fetish interest of "vore", the general interest in eating and body image, and the young male interest in big tits. It didn't grab me, but I KNOW it works and he's made a brilliantly successful comic that way. a praiseworthy achievement to have mastered this aspect so well.

Comickers are different ppl. Even if I know all his tricks, I still wouldn't make a story like CC (unless I'm paid big bucks). It doesn't appeal to my creative satisfaction. I like to make stories that feel like action drama movies.
Likewise, there will be ppl who feel I'm wasting my time, that comics should break conventions and be experimental and whatever.
It's important to know tricks, not script wank, and listen to your editors. But you have to be true to yourself or your story will be lifeless.

I got an absolutely perfect first comic is right here . The first page from the big return of penis is over here and is absolutely epic.

Back in 2004, I did about two weeks of flash cartoon/comics before I did penis proper. You want to see the first REAL penis comic? Warning it has a cartoon penis which puts it up to an A for Adults rating instead of the usual PG-13 M rating for Mature that penis has. So take a look at the first page over here it was as raw and wild in the first days of penis as it could be. It wasn't as watered down or as well thought out as penis is now. That first year of penis was all done the day before, as stream of conscious crazy as it possibly could be. I had no idea what was going to happen with it. I had the idea to bring B-level characters like Tranny and the Robot Demon in as the stars of a comic. It just started to snowball with my worst characters becoming stars of this weird offbeat thing that I created and it just keeps getting more and more steam.

To continue, let's ask Marine:

Hi Marine. Let's say right now, suddenly you can draw like John Buscema. Your writing interests and aptitudes remain the same as now.

Now you want to make a non-profit webcomic. Discount the fact that you should get paid if you can draw like John Buscema.

Will you now decide to make a 900-page action/sci-fi/fantasy epic comic book like a lot of DDers are doing? Or will you continue to make strips like Penis, just with awesomely better art when you feel like it?

Actually, IMO, Penis would suffer with great art. Part of it's charm is its rawness.

I like any comic that grabs my interst. Usually it's the art, but solid writing can make up for mediocre art.

Lots of type, & I can't click away fast enough.

Long establishing shots or lots of character intro better have stellar art, or I'm quickly disinterested.

It's all a matter of personal taste. I'm shocked at some of the books I consider crap getting as much attention as they do, but that's one of the great things about DD. Everyone has a chance.

Later,
Chip

cs3ink
Actually, IMO, Penis would suffer with great art. Part of it's charm is its rawness.

Yeah, like Jackass. But that's part of my question to Marine: Are you doing Jackass because that's what you can do, or is it what you want to do even if you can do something "better"? (note the quotations)

Red Slayer

Evil Emperor Nick
1. The comic starts as a silly comedy then suddenly switches to a drama bringing a long a lot of left overs from when things were silly.

I like to think that comics that when the autor doest that it's bcase of an innate desire to tell storyes.
That the autor decided to use his/her characters and setting for something more than just random gags and fooling around.

That is fine and often a natural evolution, however if it happens so very early on in the comic it is often very jarring for readers and it is probably better for you to start a new comic where you can tell your story without the nonsensical past material holding you back. I can think of many comics that feel weakened because they have baggage like this, the old Kota's World for example always felt this way to me even though the majority of the series was highly enjoyable. If I start reading your comic and laughing at say your goofiness then on page 22 you decided it is time for people to start dying I'm going to be turned off to the series and from what I've read from fans this is a common problem in evolving comics.

Good points all around.

A lot of what you've said Nick, seems to be an attribute of bad writing, which infests numerous online comics like a hideous plague. Most online comics start as a whim, this means there's been almost no planning or even consideration for character development and story. Very few people can fly by the seat of their pants well, good story telling generally takes a lot of time.

I'd rather have horrid artwork and a great story then vice versa.

Evil Emperor Nick

a lot of people have good ideas for scenarios, it's turning them into interesting stories that's the hard part

Wow that is an excellent point. I agree part of the reasons opens are frequently rough is people's in experience, all the more reason though for people to stear away from openings that are very difficult to do well when they first start out.

Yet people walk into the "slow opening" trap a lot. I think it's for two reasons - one, you don't know what you're good at until you've tried. I know I had to make that mistake myself to realize that it's incredibly hard to pull off. Two, and I think this is the big one, it's easy in the plotting stage. When you have a complex scenario all figured out, it's very difficult to come up with a good way of starting in the middle that readers will still be able to follow with no background information. There are a million possible places to start, and all of them seem like the wrong one. So you opt for building slowly instead, and then when you get to the finished product, you realize it takes too long to get to anything interesting that way.

Actually, reason the third: most people have no idea what they're getting themselves into when they start doing comics. It's a slow and arduous process, and producing those fifty krabillion pages of dramatic buildup is going to end with you crying yourself to sleep every night.

spacehamster
producing those fifty krabillion pages of dramatic buildup is going to end with you crying yourself to sleep every night.

Only if you're not enjoying yourself with the buildup.
And it can happen with any type of page, if you're not true to yourself. That's burnout.

Makes me wonder what pro artists are like. They get paid, but do they honestly like what they're doing? It's why Miller and other went independent, right?

What's the situ with pro manga artists in Jpn? They have more creative freedom, but do they always cherish that freedom to create what they love, or are most of them writing for the readers?

If you follow a long-running manga series, you can sometimes tell when the author has lost that initial spark, and is now just continuing the series for $$$.

Trust me, I know full well what it is like to have to build up so much stuff before the comic really gets good.

Having 7 issues of prologue in my case =P

I ran the starting point through my head a thousand times. Thinking of different areas in the story I could start or to at least skip the prologue.

But to me the Prologue isn't just to help set a lot of things in motion and give much more to build on. It gives me a chance to actually see the story develop instead of merely having a bajillion notes of backstory events I would need to remember to fit into flashbacks. And it gives me artistic, story, and issue practice before things actually heat up.

I know much more now as far as setting things up and drawing than I did when I started. Thanks to feedback, research, and practice. Had I started the story after my prologue, I probably wouldn't have the skills to draw it. At least no way near as good as it will look now.

Plus I still have 4 more issues to practice on before starting it.

The main thing is, even though I am new at web comicing I have made comics for a major part of my life. So I knew what I was getting myself into by starting where I did. Most people don't even consider it and get bored with their own work before they can actually get anything to happen! Luckily I like my Prologue, just not as much as later story arcs =P

My thought was not to draw a lot of people into my comic when it was new. I want to draw people in as it evolves. I'll actually start advertising and such once I get past the prologue. The comic is built to cater to people like me that want to tune in and see how things look for a while before pushing that favorite button and reading the whole thing.

But all this does not prevent me from crying myself to sleep XD ... um... whenever I actually get to sleep =P

In this case your prologue is the story. If your "main story" is drastically different from the prologue... Such as, different main chara cast and such... don't be surprised/dismayed if some of your readers tell you "WTF I liked the prologue characters and where it was going. The new charas are so emo and stupid! Bring back the prologue!"

It could happen.

Editors are your friends... In this case, run your main story ideas by your co-artist and know what he thinks.

mlai

spacehamster
producing those fifty krabillion pages of dramatic buildup is going to end with you crying yourself to sleep every night.

Only if you're not enjoying yourself with the buildup.
And it can happen with any type of page, if you're not true to yourself. That's burnout.

I was exaggerating for dramatic effect, you know. ;-)
For me, there's stuff I enjoy drawing, and there's stuff I do because it's necessary for the story. I'm constantly at odds with myself because of this, really. I want to write the best stories that I'm able to write, and if I only focus what I enjoy drawing, well, I'd really be limiting myself. So in the end, a lot of the drawing process feels like hard work. Of course I can motivate myself to do it if I believe the story's worth it, but it's still hard work and takes forever to complete.

mlai
In this case your prologue is the story. If your "main story" is drastically different from the prologue... Such as, different main chara cast and such... don't be surprised/dismayed if some of your readers tell you "WTF I liked the prologue characters and where it was going. The new charas are so emo and stupid! Bring back the prologue!"

It could happen.

Oh, I am sure it will. I hope so at least.
It will be pretty different.


For me, there's stuff I enjoy drawing, and there's stuff I do because it's necessary for the story. I'm constantly at odds with myself because of this, really. I want to write the best stories that I'm able to write, and if I only focus what I enjoy drawing, well, I'd really be limiting myself. So in the end, a lot of the drawing process feels like hard work. Of course I can motivate myself to do it if I believe the story's worth it, but it's still hard work and takes forever to complete.
I know exactly what you mean here. You have to keep telling yourself to buck up and draw the stuff you absolutely don't want to because greener pastures await! The reward is when you get it all done because then when you get to draw the stuff you want to draw you feel much better and with a greater sense of accomplishment.

I thought Rocketship A GoGo had a good start, although the earlier strips were sillier than the later story arcs and had no continuity. So I guess it's sort of guilty of n"number 1." Para Ten started off well too because of it's stellar artwork and the way a story was told clearly with no dialogue.
I'll be the first to admit that my comic has a terrible begining, it was paced way too slow, (the main character doesnt even appear until page 4,) all the first 12 pages or so did was set the stage.

I read every post here and... I'm kinda lost as to what we're actually talking about. Dodging traps, how to open a comic, or art over telling a story you want to tell or something like that... So I'm just going to sorta jump into the conversation!

-Say it's about war, one on one combat, romantic relationships, baseball, whatever. What can you do to get people to give the thing a chance and stick with it even if those things aren't their thing? I'm not sure myself and I don't think I'm particularly successful at this aspect either. I try and use colourful artwork, sexy imagery, occasional stabs at humour. But like I said, I'm not very good at that aspect.

Honestly, I think this is the smartest comment in the topic because it's pretty much 100% true. People like what people like. There are certain genres and niches that readers enjoy and they'll read what you have to draw regardless of the actual quality. For example, I love indie and "dark" comics; anything experimental, is black and white or has a simple unsaturated color palette, involves children in dangerous situations, or the plot focuses on spiritual or supernatural events where the badguys has just as much of a chance of winning as the good guys will draw me in immediately even if the comic itself sucks by normal standards. I'll almost instantly click the "X" button if you have a manga or a generic superhero comic because I'm just not a fan of those genres...

Which leads to a point I've seen floating around here. Good writing and attractive art. Art is subjective; there's no RIGHT or WRONG. But, style is an important element just as much as creating recognizable imagery. Anyone can understand a human figure out of simple lines, but consistency with this lines help associate the art with the artist. This is, in itself, what draws people in and keeps them reading...

Which leads up to writing. The only problem I see with writing in comics, especially from amateur writers, is the "talking heads" syndrome where the entire comic is a close up panel of two guys with massive speach bubbles above them. There's something called clarity and this is often forgotten. This is why we have establishing panels and shots where the action zooms out. Look at any Calvin and Hobbes strip and you'll notice an almost uniform approach:

PANEL 1: Wide shot of Calvin... usually talking to Hobbes.

PANEL 2: Close up shot of Calving talking.

PANEL 3: Close up shot of Hobbes responding.

PANEL 4: Wide shot of Calving saying the punchline while Hobbes rolls his eyes.

C&H is pretty much universally the best comic strip of the past decade and it's almost always the same strip in style and design. If you take away the wide shot of calvin and hobbes and simply start with a joke with only Calvin's face, you make the reader question the panel. Who's he talking to? Where is he? What's the setting? Without clarity you distract the reader from the actual comic and cause their mind to wander. There's absolutely nothing wrong with silence. There's nothing wrong with text intros, provided there are pictures for added clarity. Your only objective in comics is to keep the reader doing his job I.E. reading the page. The more their mind wanders, the less inclination they have to continue actually reading.

Which brings up my next poing about long text intros or whatever, there's nothing wrong with text in general nor is there anything wrong with slow stories or tons of panels with no action. The thing that's important about writing in comics is flow. Writing for comics is supposed to be "down to earth." It's really general and simple. You wouldn't spit out a paragraph long thought while in the middle of battling a space monster would you? You don't just randomly express abstract thoughts and feelings in a perfectly formulated sentence while you're out drinking with your buddies, no? Real people chew their words, hem and haw, cough and sigh, spit out sentence fragments, have bad grammar, don't finish sentences...

uh... which brings me to ANOTHER POINT! I'm making a pretty big generality here, but there seems to be some overall "hatred" of the word balloon... the most common complaint I hear is "it takes up space where the art should be." Flow is intengral and without it, your art can't tell a story properly.

Reading Scott McCloud's "Making Comics" made me think of a very important subject that I never noticed before; the greatest comics have an "invisible arrow" that points you in the right direction. This arrow is what I like to call "comic flow." Just read anything you have saved in your favorites; notice the placement of the speech balloons, the direction the characters are facing, their body language, how they stand, the perspective... you'll notice that it almost always leads you from left to right (or the next panel for Japanese style comics). Word balloon placement is essential to guiding the reader between panels, otherwise they get lost in the art or confused and anything that hinders a reader's attention will only kill your comic.

Uh... sorry guys, this was a pretty long and stupid post because I got in a little "ranty" mood and forgot what we were arguing about here. I just wanted to bring up some points that I think every comic maker should have. I'm no expert or anything, but I know what I like and I know what keeps me reading. So, just keep in mind:

1: Stick with what you like. If people hate it, they'll always hate it.
2: Art is subjective; consistent style is more attractive than the actual quality of the art.
3: Clarity is the key. If the reader knows what's going on, then they question your comic a lot less and it will hold their attention more.
4: The best writers keep it simple. Humans naturally express simple ideas unless they're really thinking about it. Even Allan Moore writes great stories yet his dialog is rarely more than two or three sentences long.
5: Flow tells the story. The longer it takes to navigate the panels, the more attention you snatch from the reader.

mlai
To continue, let's ask Marine:

Hi Marine. Let's say right now, suddenly you can draw like John Buscema. Your writing interests and aptitudes remain the same as now.

Now you want to make a non-profit webcomic. Discount the fact that you should get paid if you can draw like John Buscema.

Will you now decide to make a 900-page action/sci-fi/fantasy epic comic book like a lot of DDers are doing? Or will you continue to make strips like Penis, just with awesomely better art when you feel like it?

I draw better than John Buscema now, just because it isn't apparant doesn't mean I don't draw so good. On occasion you'll see snippets of better art in penis. Like on the day I responded to criticism of penis. I'm not much of a drawer, but I'll be damned if anyone doesn't say I'm an artist.

I'd do crime noir stuff, more mainstream superhero work, and the avant-garde type of thing like Preacher or Transmetropolitan. Considering I've already explored minimalism and dadaism with penis, its about time I did some more serious work comic book style web comics again. I guess here is a good a place as any to announce that penis is ending in November.

I'm not sure what I want to do first though. I'm thinking I'll do a superhero story that I wrote for Image last year and then expanded for a web comic guy around here this year. I figure its one more re-write away from it being great. Almost no dick jokes at all in this thing. A few for sure, but the humor is spaced out with suspense and surrealism. Its about hero worship and has a lot in line with old hard boiled detective stuff. I started drawing it a few weeks ago, its coming along. Some pages will be easier to draw than others, but its a process. Going to take some time to get ready.

But don't take my word for it guys.

mlai

cs3ink
Actually, IMO, Penis would suffer with great art. Part of it's charm is its rawness.

Yeah, like Jackass. But that's part of my question to Marine: Are you doing Jackass because that's what you can do, or is it what you want to do even if you can do something "better"? (note the quotations)

I'm doing penis for the fun of it. So I guess I wanted to do this type of stuff. Its not all gross out offensive stuff, its a showcase. You never really know what you're going to get, but I always try and do it my way. The one or two really extreme moments in penis and its name give it the reputation that its the worst of the worst. I'd like to think my stuff doesn't look like ms paint fan comics, but for comedic effect the artwork is of a certain lower quality. Its just how it is man.

Why do you do anime comics? Is it because you wanted to fit in with all the fad? Are you actually from that area of the world or are you trying to emulate it because you can't do anything "original" or "different"?