I come from a catholic background, but I don't find myself to be overly religious, however, it means I got a good catholic education (that's open to interpretation). Now at the age of 17 attending college I'm still being taught the lessons and morals of the catholic church; ehich is okay, I mean most make sense. Hwever, recently, I was informed that the papacy was going to denounce smoking as sinful. This does make some degree of sense, what with the self destruction and the harm of others being known to the smoker, but just how far can the church, or anything else for that matter, dictate what people should do before they start some serious control over people's lives? Is it right that the Church can condemn Smoking as a sin that could be the basis of one's soul ending up in their supposed purgatory or even hell?

For the record, I dont smoke and i don't believe in heaven, hell or purgatory.

Bittenbymonk
but just how far can the church, or anything else for that matter, dictate what people should do before they start some serious control over people's lives?

I laughed so goddamn hard.


Anyways I think this is good, and i usually frown upon anything the church does now these days.

The church still holds influence today, if they can use it to stop the idiot habit of smoking then it's a good idea. I'm sure they've condemned people for even dumber things... oh snap

Well, if it's wrong for the Catholic church to tell you smoking will send you to hell, then it's wrong for them to tell you ANY vice will send you to hell. It's kind of an issue of whether or not the Catholic church has any right to tell you anything at all. If their previous rules haven't upset somebody, then I don't know why this one would... unless they were a smoker planning to go to heaven, I guess.

I came from a Catholic background (but not presently Catholic due to other issues).

Anyway, smoking though is one of those gray area issues. When I asked a teacher of mine before, he said that smoking goes against the 5th commandment which is "thou shall not kill".

Why?

In Catholicism, that 5th commandment "thou shall not kill" is extended to actions that harm yourself or others or take the life of yourself or others. That is the rationale why abortion, murder, and suicide is viewed as a SIN on the same level. Those are MORTAL SINS (big sins).

Things like getting drunk, smoking, drugs, getting into fistfights, making threats, etc. are also sins against the 5th commandment but not as grave as killing.


If the Catholic Church would denounce smoking as sinful because it harms the body, it would be fair if the Catholic Church would also denounce vaccines, water fluoridation, MSGs, GM foods, aspartame, etc. Afterall, those other things are also destroyers of the body.

But I dont see any of that right now. As HPV VACCINE is "morally acceptable". [catholic.org]

See the contradiction?

A woman in charge of some Christian youth group actually told me that they're not really supposed to smoke or use drugs because they're supposed to treat their body as a temple or something like that. She didn't bring up the 5th commandment when we were discussing that, so I guess some of the Christians have different opinions or ideas on these things.

Incidentally, she also said they prefer to get "high off Jesus." That doesn't have a whole lot to do with this, but I thought it was funny.

Well I guess we're all going to hell then because of second hand smoke. After all unbaptised babies don't get a pass, right? Ignorance of sin is no defense, so you breathe it and you go to hell, no excuses!!

Religion is so silly sometimes.

Sometimes?

Is this where we insert the "smokin' Jesus" line?

Bittenbymonk
Sometimes?

Yes and sometimes it's scary!!! lol!

bobhhh
Well I guess we're all going to hell then because of second hand smoke. After all unbaptised babies don't get a pass, right? Ignorance of sin is no defense, so you breathe it and you go to hell, no excuses!!

Religion is so silly sometimes.

It's not actually that trivial or silly and the first few posters realised this.
-The catholic church still hold enormous sway today. When you look past the mysticism, it's basically an extremely influential social cultural movement. Designating smoking as a "sin" could actually help change a LOT of lives.


-Thank goodness that it's one of the few things to come out of that institution in recent years that's helpful.

ozoneocean

bobhhh
Well I guess we're all going to hell then because of second hand smoke. After all unbaptised babies don't get a pass, right? Ignorance of sin is no defense, so you breathe it and you go to hell, no excuses!!

Religion is so silly sometimes.

It's not actually that trivial or silly and the first few posters realised this.
-The catholic church still hold enormous sway today. When you look past the mysticism, it's basically an extremely influential social cultural movement. Designating smoking as a "sin" could actually help change a LOT of lives.


-Thank goodness that it's one of the few things to come out of that institution in recent years that's helpful.

Perhaps the implications of some people's judgement are more serious, but the fact that the Pope will get people to stop smoking, or that people need the Pope to encourage them to do something they should by common sense stop doing for health reasons, well now in my dictionary when you look up silly...

Bittenbymonk
but just how far can the church, or anything else for that matter, dictate what people should do before they start some serious control over people's lives?

Control, dude. That's the Christian empire. No God, no hell. No hell, no consequences. No consequences, no control.

bobhhh
or that people need the Pope to encourage them to do something they should by common sense stop doing for health reasons...

Come on man... I'm sure you've met your share of smokers. ;)

Just buzzed about for some more info and the vatican is going to b the world's first tabacco free country if this goes ahead, that's pretty neat.

ozoneocean

bobhhh
or that people need the Pope to encourage them to do something they should by common sense stop doing for health reasons...

Come on man... I'm sure you've met your share of smokers. ;)

Yeah, I have to agree. it sometimes takes more than just willpower to kick this habit. You need massive group support, patches, Hobbies and the like to take their minds off the addiction and so on forth.

I should know, my dad's an heavy smoker... or at least, he was. It basically took him five years before he could even successfully kick the habit. There was alot of relapses, etc in between.

It's a very psychical addiction with nicotines. The cravings are very heavy and isn't easy to get rid of. And then taking in the psychological factor... even after your body has been completely exhausted of all nicotine traces, and stops craving it... your mind may still tell you that you need something, aka cigarettes to relive the "stress and boredom" in your life.

And sometimes people do tend to over rationalize things when they're still mentally craving it. For example, they'd say things like "Well, I've been clean for two months. just a little one as an 'reward'. Besides, there's not many ways I can relive stress like this..." they basically lose when they start thinking things like that.

Face it, sometimes the sad truth is that some people can't just beat things like this with logic and willpower alone won't help a person kick the habit. Sometimes they need an HUGE, mystical reason to successfully go cold turkey.

That's why people often bring "god" into alcohol/drugs support anonymous groups because it generally motivates those with beliefs a lot more than the "Do it for the health of your family and yourself" would do.

Aurora Moon

ozoneocean

bobhhh
or that people need the Pope to encourage them to do something they should by common sense stop doing for health reasons...

Come on man... I'm sure you've met your share of smokers. ;)

Yeah, I have to agree. it sometimes takes more than just willpower to kick this habit. You need massive group support, patches, Hobbies and the like to take their minds off the addiction and so on forth.

I should know, my dad's an heavy smoker... or at least, he was. It basically took him five years before he could even successfully kick the habit. There was alot of relapses, etc in between.

It's a very psychical addiction with nicotines. The cravings are very heavy and isn't easy to get rid of. And then taking in the psychological factor... even after your body has been completely exhausted of all nicotine traces, and stops craving it... your mind may still tell you that you need something, aka cigarettes to relive the "stress and boredom" in your life.

And sometimes people do tend to over rationalize things when they're still mentally craving it. For example, they'd say things like "Well, I've been clean for two months. just a little one as an 'reward'. Besides, there's not many ways I can relive stress like this..." they basically lose when they start thinking things like that.

Face it, sometimes the sad truth is that some people can't just beat things like this with logic and willpower alone won't help a person kick the habit. Sometimes they need an HUGE, mystical reason to successfully go cold turkey.

That's why people often bring "god" into alcohol/drugs support anonymous groups because it generally motivates those with beliefs a lot more than the "Do it for the health of your family and yourself" would do.

Yes I agree, but do you think that willpower comes via papal decree??? If it did, Catholics wouldn't eat meat on friday, use condoms or be gay.

Honestly I can't take the Pope's decree on smoking any more seriously that his decree on condoms. Who is really going to listen to him? Even in 12 step programs, dogma aside, the strength comes from within.

Yes I have met many smokers, and nearly every one of them would roll the Pope in a cold minute if he was seriously jonesing for a cigarette and they knew he was holding. lol!

bobhhh
Yes I agree, but do you think that willpower comes via papal decree??? If it did, Catholics wouldn't eat meat on friday, use condoms or be gay.

Honestly I can't take the Pope's decree on smoking any more seriously that his decree on condoms. Who is really going to listen to him? Even in 12 step programs, dogma aside, the strength comes from within.

Yes I have met many smokers, and nearly every one of them would roll the Pope in a cold minute if he was seriously jonesing for a cigarette and they knew he was holding. lol!

Very amusing. :)
I suspect you're trying a bit hard now to trivialise the thing though. ;)

With smoking it's not the words from one single source that matter, it's a gathering weight that has an effect. It's positive that the Catholic church has finally done this and added further to the momentum.

ozoneocean

bobhhh
Yes I agree, but do you think that willpower comes via papal decree??? If it did, Catholics wouldn't eat meat on friday, use condoms or be gay.

Honestly I can't take the Pope's decree on smoking any more seriously that his decree on condoms. Who is really going to listen to him? Even in 12 step programs, dogma aside, the strength comes from within.

Yes I have met many smokers, and nearly every one of them would roll the Pope in a cold minute if he was seriously jonesing for a cigarette and they knew he was holding. lol!

Very amusing. :)
I suspect you're trying a bit hard now to trivialise the thing though. ;)

With smoking it's not the words from one single source that matter, it's a gathering weight that has an effect. It's positive that the Catholic church has finally done this and added further to the momentum.

I think some things do work, I know friends who are tired of being exiled to smoke a cig whether at work, home or even at a party. The exorbitant price of cigarettes also is positive. These things are tangible incentives.

Admonition from the Pope is about 100 times less tangible than the blasted warning sticker on the side of the damn pack. And we all know how well that warning sticker worked. There is a reason why smokers flippantly call cigarettes cancer sticks or coffin nails, its because warnings about future cosequences are far too esoteric for some people.

Making smoking a sin will work about as good as making drugs illegal. You can't force somebody to cease self-destructive behavior. Like any addiction, you have to find the personal wisdom and inner strength to quit smoking.

I think the Pope will have virtually no effect in this respect.

bobhhh
I think the Pope will have virtually no effect in this respect.

To you maybe.
And to me if I smoked, and to lots of people.

But, like I said, it's a social, cultural institution, with a lot of influence in this world. Being by far the biggest Christian religious group on the planet and one of the biggest religious groups in the world means that they have several million followers. To many of those what the head of that movement says is rather more significant to them than it is to you or I.

Not everyone sees this world in the same way Bob.