kyupol
Look. We have a bunch of control freaks running this planet who seek to destroy and divide us. They want us to hate one another. By race, by gender, by left and right, by religion, etc.

Feminism was one of their many tools used to achieve this goal. Sure it sounds reasonable at first. Having equal rights for man and woman. Great idea. Everyone agrees on that.
But it works the same as communism. Communism is about making everyone equal through the equal distribution of wealth (at least on paper). We had well-meaning people who were duped. But as demonstrated in history, communism only turned out to be a tool of enslavement and destruction.

So you're saying feminism is the same as communism, "a tool of enslavement and destruction"? Feminism.

You do realize the status of women has only been slightly above slavery until feminists worked to fix that, right? You know that women in other countries can still be sold off to men as wives, right?

You realize that quoting two women who agree with you to "prove" your point is bullshit, right? They don't speak for all women, they obviously don't speak for feminists.

There is more to the world than America. Yes, women in the West have it pretty good these days. The feminist struggle continues on behalf of women in the Middle East being sold to 50-year-old men as husbands, women in Africa whose genitals are mutilated by female circumcision. Saying the world no longer needs feminism is like saying we should give up fighting slavery.

Men are better with maps.

One of my job duties where I work is to interpret and render maps. Miraculously, my ovaries have never gotten in the way of this.

Women have better instinctive direction sense than men. Men and women navigate differently with women knowing land marks and men going with directions.

One theory is that women navigated by land marks for food gathering and men navigated by tracking for direction. Women read maps as well as men. One caveat: anyone can read a map better than an Army Second Lieutenant regardless of gender.

Once upon a time it was quite common for both genders to express themselves through tears (read any diaries from the 16th-17th Centuries) That is a cultural trait, not a gender trait. Any doctor will tell you that tears are healthy and actually help restore emotional well-being.

As far as comparitive gender strength: okay guys grab your top lip and pull it over the top of your head. Did you do it without becoming a blubbering baby because of the awesome pain? Could you do it all? No? Well that's the equivelent of natural childbirth. (comparison alternatively attributed to Groucho Marx and Carol Burnett)

If men naturally carried babies for nine months and gave birth, abortions would be available on every street corner.

Product Placement
Men are more aggressive: Same studies with the testosterone state that these hormones tend to make men more aggressive. Domestic violence between couples are normally committed by the man. Arrest records show that far greater quantities of men commit crimes related to physical violence. So on and so on.

What's your opinion about it?

I have to point out that arrest records doesn't always tell the full story though. It used to be that women simply weren't arrested for minor offenses... it was only in the cases of murder and the more serious causes of theft and being able to prove that she did was then an woman actually arrested.

After all... to men of the law... women were simply irrational creatures who were prone to outbursts, etc. They were considered such stupid creatures and therefore couldn't be held responsible for any of the "minor stuff" like driving drunk, etc.

hell, even during the women's suffrage when women were demanding the rights to vote... policemen were stopping women from going into the voting booths but decided not to arrest them simply because they were women. The women actually had to DEMAND that they be arrested!

and if you look at old cartoons from the time period, or any other comical stories, black and white movies... they used to find the idea of abusive wives very hilarious and humorous. (think angry housewife with an rolling pin as an weapon in her hand).

And although this isn't quite as bad today, we still see this to an lesser degree anyway. for instance, did you know that in some states that women who's been abusing their boyfriends/husbands usually won't get sent to jail unless the men has serious life-threatening wounds? in one case one guy actually had to set up an hidden video camera to record his abusive wife's actions, as evidence so that the cops had no excuse but to actually arrest her! and in those same states all the woman has to do is cry abuse and blam, the guy gets sent off to jail even if there was very little evidence.

The same can be said for some female pedophiles. for some bizarre reason, they were often more "acceptable" than an male pedophile. in fact in the 50's it was often excused as a woman's "Materialistic side expressing itself in a different form". in fact there's often all plenty of excuses for female pedophiles that you can find out there in literate dating back far as the 18th century... while an male pedophile were looked down upon.. because after all, they were the more stronger, the more smarter gender so therefore they just had to know better than that.

Just Google "older women and young boys in literate"... and plenty of stuff comes up.

So yeah, just because there are less arrest records for women doesn't mean it doesn't happen as often as men abusing women... if you know what I mean.

In a way while this might seem like it's "advantageous" to women... I think it's rather demeaning anyway. I still see this whole mentality of "men are stronger, smarter so they should know better. So for this reason they get more harsher sentences than women! Women are just week feeble creatures that can be easily manipulated by men so they just don't know better, so we just let them go off easy." in the law and courtroom like that.

megan_rose
Men are better with maps.

One of my job duties where I work is to interpret and render maps. Miraculously, my ovaries have never gotten in the way of this.
Never stated that it would inhibit you in any way.

If someone is supposedly better then me at something, doesn't mean that I'm useless in it. Also I think I meant to say, navigate, not read maps. I think Bravo makes a good point.

As previously stated, these are well known stereotypes that have managed to rub on to me. Repeat something often enough and you end up believing it.

And of course I'm aware that things can go both ways. I remember this movie I watched where the guy was being abused by his wife and he couldn't do anything about it because nobody believed him. I distinctly remember a scene where he ended up calling the women shelter to ask for help and they hung up on him. I think the movie was based on a true story but I could be wrong.

I think Kyupol mentioned something about building statues of women/goddesses as some kind of proof about how women aren't really oppressed.

Interestingly before I graduated from university I remember someone bringing up the idea of the male gaze. The Reader's Digest version is that years ago the fine arts was considered a field for men. Men brought art. Men were the ones attending galleries. Female artists and viewers were generally not considered. The subject of art however is typically female. It is the male gazing into the female form.

I'm completely oversimplifying things but really building statues of women/goddesses isn't really proof about anything regarding gender oppression. (And female artists did exist at various points of art history.) It was just an interesting thing that came to mind when I was reading the thread.

I think there should be a nice balance in life. People talk about how their gender shouldn't matter but it does! My gender affects a lot of practical decisions in my life. It's also part of my identity and there are undeniable biological differences.

But my gender shouldn't be this overly complicated issue. Neither should I feel disrespected or thought less of because my gender. I should not feel unsafe because of my gender nor should judgment be passed on me solely because of it. I also do not represent my gender. So when I cry, I cry. When I laugh, I laugh. There is no need to make a gender issue out of it. :P

bravo1102
As far as comparitive gender strength: okay guys grab your top lip and pull it over the top of your head. Did you do it without becoming a blubbering baby because of the awesome pain? Could you do it all? No? Well that's the equivelent of natural childbirth. (comparison alternatively attributed to Groucho Marx and Carol Burnett)

If men naturally carried babies for nine months and gave birth, abortions would be available on every street corner.

I have heard both of these claims before. The whole lip thing I find just to be a terrible example to begin with because it is physically impossible and I find the second offensive. Saying a man would get an abortion because he is afraid of pain is unfair to men.

the2ndredbaron

bravo1102
As far as comparitive gender strength: okay guys grab your top lip and pull it over the top of your head. Did you do it without becoming a blubbering baby because of the awesome pain? Could you do it all? No? Well that's the equivelent of natural childbirth. (comparison alternatively attributed to Groucho Marx and Carol Burnett)

If men naturally carried babies for nine months and gave birth, abortions would be available on every street corner.

I have heard both of these claims before. The whole lip thing I find just to be a terrible example to begin with because it is physically impossible and I find the second offensive. Saying a man would get an abortion because he is afraid of pain is unfair to men.

I actually heard the opposite. A guy I know says that no guy will ever accept it, but they are all actually jealous of women because they have the ability to create life (opposite of penis envy?). He also said that this is the reason that men tend to brag with each other about how big of a crap they took, which I found amusing.

Jonko
I actually heard the opposite. A guy I know says that no guy will ever except it, but they are all actually jealous of women because they have the ability to create life (opposite of penis envy?). He also said that this is the reason that men tend to brag with each other about how big of a crap they took, which I found amusing.

I'll admit it. I think it would be a wondrous thing to be able to carry a child within me.

bravo1102
If men naturally carried babies for nine months and gave birth, abortions would be available on every street corner.

Lets check the miscarriage/abortion rate on hypocampus then...Besides, The Governator handled it pretty well. But of course, he is Schwarsenegger...JUST KIDDING...XD

Speaking seriously, if men where supposed to get pregnant, our bodies could be adapted to do so...

What men and women can or cannot (speaking of abilities) do has more to do with social tendencies than a natural ability, in my opinion...

The only thing that men can't do and women can is give birth..The only thing that women can't do and men can is...being kicked in the nuts...wich is unfair, if you think about it...

Dark Pascual
The only thing that women can't do and men can is...being kicked in the nuts...wich is unfair, if you think about it...

The C*nt punt looks reasonably painful...
Yes, people get social and cultural gender differences mixed up with physical ones, it's depressing how silly most people are when it comes to distinguishing those sorts of differences.

There are very real physical differences between men and women, but none are sufficient to justify inequality of any kind in modern Western society.
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And if a man was made into a woman magically, I don't childbirth pain would deter him from creating another life. Yes childbirth hurts but it's different for many women and is not considered "the worst pain ever" by all. Experiences are highly variable. That sort of thing harms young women more than anyone else- making them terrified of a perfectly natural experience by layering it with all this hyperbolic baggage and folklore.
Thanks to that sort of thing we have all these related nasty myths like virgins and their "sealed up virginas" that have to have their hymens pierced and broken through in a brutal way before they commence sexual activity...

I thought the worst pain ever was either breaking your femur or getting you achilies tendon cut.

BTW Ozone, you make me laugh.

A common story that I've heard. Some say that the pain men experience while getting rid of a large kidney stone equals to the pain associated with childbirth.

I loved the humor in friends when they played with it when one of the females was (Pheobe I think) was giving birth and Joey had to flush out a kidney stone at the same time. Ross was with him and when the deed was done they were looking at the stone like some proud parents.

"It's so little!"

ozoneocean
And if a man was made into a woman magically, I don't childbirth pain would deter him from creating another life. Yes childbirth hurts but it's different for many women and is not considered "the worst pain ever" by all. Experiences are highly variable.

Plus parents say that the joy of having a child makes any pain bearable! or maybe that's just an afterthought. I bet at the time many are thinking "damn kid!"

ozoneocean
The C*nt punt looks reasonably painful...

Oh, you would be right about that.

Isn't passing a kidney stone essentially having to urinate a solid and sharp peice of solidified matter? I think anyone having to squeeze what's basically a shard of broken glass through their urethra would call that one of the most painful ordeals ever. I think a dislocated knee was pretty high up there too.

ozoneocean
The C*nt punt looks reasonably painful...

But Johnny Cage's Split Punch never works on any of the female Kombatants...All these years I've been living a lie?

I think I'd rather birth a child than break a femur. The benefits of child birth far outweigh the benefits of a broken leg.

There was a guy in my Sociology class who had chronic kidney stones.

This might be a little of topic but having just finished another semester of college I have found a lot of teachers to be sexist. But I have found sexism to be very prevalent in college classrooms, anyone else?

This is one of the reasons why I fear going to college; I don't want to be assaulted by feminists or feminist views. Feminism has made me fear women. I don't want to go up and talk to a woman (my age) anymore because I'm afraid she'll have me arrested or kill me (of course, I'm pretty ugly , which doesn't earn me any brownie points, but still...) This is ironic considering that the thing I want the most in life is a girlfriend...who isn't abusive.

Pathetic rambling aside...

Domestic violence between couples are normally committed by the man.

I hate it when people claim this. Many, many studies have been done that have shown that the amount of male on female DV and female on male DV is relatively equal.

Boxtop
This is one of the reasons why I fear going to college; I don't want to be assaulted by feminists or feminist views. Feminism has made me fear women. I don't want to go up and talk to a woman (my age) anymore because I'm afraid she'll have me arrested or kill me

Just don't be an asshole to her and you have no reason to fear her.
Feminism is not an offensive thing, it's a defensive thing. If you don't attack, we won't parry.

This might be a little of topic but having just finished another semester of college I have found a lot of teachers to be sexist. But I have found sexism to be very prevalent in college classrooms, anyone else?

Although I hate to admit it, I found that male teachers were generally more lenient towards me when I asked them to bump my grade. After a test I usually look over my answers and see if I get extra points on some questions (I do this on ALL of them) and go to my professor's office hours, but the male teachers are more likely to give me extra points. I hate it because it seems like I'm using my femaleness to get a better grade, but I still want that higher grade!

I've also known hot guys that did this with their female teachers... Works both ways I guess.

Knowing what I know about a lot of those Right-wing Conspiracy believing Libertarian survivalist types (often racist, even White supremicists and religious fanatics)... they are pretty dangerous. Oh and veterans? Remember the conspiracies following the American War for Independence that wanted a dictator? (and the Civil War and the Great Depression and Andrew Jackson and...)

Way to heap em all in one group.

I won't disagree with you that the white supremacist and religious fanatic types can be dangerous.

But come on. Libertarian? You love freedom, you are dangerous? Come on. You like to be armed and be self sufficient and have the means to defend yourself... you are dangerous? Come on.

Libertarians are all about the idea of having a small government, less taxes, and more freedom for the people. Is that a bad idea?

And I'm not even white for crying out loud!!! How can I be white supremacist? I'm not crazy enough to accept that white people are the superior race. lol I don't believe in the superiority of ANY particular race for that matter. lol!

Dear God,

Please do not let Kyupol ever have children.

You never know... you never know. And based on that checklist I posted in my previous post, I wish that ALL PARENTS teach those things to their children and in the end, this world will be a better place to live in.

Knowledge is power.

--------------

Anyway before I derail this topic, I'll just say to both MEN and WOMEN a few things:

- You are NOT a "man" or a "woman" but rather, a spiritual being experiencing reality in the physical form that is either a "man" or a "woman".

- The physical form has its limitations. Its strengths and its weaknesses. Women are better in some things than men... and vice versa.

- Instead of going against each other, why not work together? I think thats the reason why it needs a man and a woman to have sex in order to have a child. Because a child's creation is supposed to be a joint effort. As designed by the creator of the universe.

- Guard against the advances of the Evil One (currently manifesting itself in the form of Big Brother). The evil one wants you divided and bickering and fighting among yourselves on the basis of gender, race, etc. So that there will be more and more excuses to get into your lives and put you into the system and enslave you.

This is one of the reasons why I fear going to college; I don't want to be assaulted by feminists or feminist views. Feminism has made me fear women. I don't want to go up and talk to a woman (my age) anymore because I'm afraid she'll have me arrested or kill me (of course, I'm pretty ugly , which doesn't earn me any brownie points, but still...) This is ironic considering that the thing I want the most in life is a girlfriend...who isn't abusive.

Do not fear college.

By not going to college because of this, means that the enemy (The New World Order. Feminism is only one of their weapons) has succeeded in defeating you. So are you really gonna forfeit your ticket to a better life because of the feminists? If you do that, you've already acknowledged that the feminists HAVE MORE POWER over you. Do you really want that?

If I were you, enter fields like SKILLED TRADES (Carpentry, Plumbing, Automotive, Truck Driving, etc.) or the heavily hardcore sciences (Physics, Math, Medicine, Chemistry, etc.).

Those fields tend to be more focused on the technical side of things and less on the propaganda.

As for wanting a girlfriend, I perfectly understand you. I was once in your position. And it took me awhile to break my conditioning.

Even if the enemy has had some successes destroying the relationship between men and women. Do not surrender. Do not give up. Get up!

Keep your mind open to the possibility of meeting a woman whose eyes are open or willing to be opened.
If you narrow down your criteria of mate selection to that kind of woman, eventually you will end up having a higher sense of respect for yourself. You will reach a point where you will no longer feel anything sexual for a woman you aren't emotionally interested in.

It won't matter if she's got the best pair of tits and the finest ass out there. The physical will not matter until you get to know "her".
Until you get to know the spiritual being inside that exterior shell of a "woman" and decide if you wanna be with "her", you will not feel a thing.

You will not be suckered into this whole pathetic culture that is all about making you feel inadequate and empty.

At the same time, DO NOT make finding a woman the ultimate goal in life.

Focus your attention on your other passions. Things like drawing, playing a musical instrument, playing video games, skateboarding, etc...

Good luck!

megan_rose
Feminism is not an offensive thing, it's a defensive thing. If you don't attack, we won't parry.

I wish the feminists at my college were as nice as the ones you're talking about. I ran into plenty who seemed really angry. It felt like they hated men, and their actions were more about revenge than equality. The worst thing is that they're treating a new generation of men as if they were the sexist generation before them.

It's kind of sad, because I know a lot of feminists aren't like this. Unfortunately, an abrasive feminist is louder than the good kind. Maybe they just feel like they need that anger and spite for any kind of change, but it's the polite feminists that make me feel like we need to change.

I've dealed with both smart active feminists (a couple of bosses, a teacher and classmates) and some serious nutcases...

Feminism's goal is to achieve the equality among men and women behind the law.

But anybody who things that men should be ashamed of the fact of being men is an idiot...

Feminists are not idiots...

kyupol

Knowing what I know about a lot of those Right-wing Conspiracy believing Libertarian survivalist types (often racist, even White supremicists and religious fanatics)... they are pretty dangerous. Oh and veterans? Remember the conspiracies following the American War for Independence that wanted a dictator? (and the Civil War and the Great Depression and Andrew Jackson and...)

Way to heap em all in one group.

I won't disagree with you that the white supremacist and religious fanatic types can be dangerous.

But come on. Libertarian? You love freedom, you are dangerous? Come on. You like to be armed and be self sufficient and have the means to defend yourself... you are dangerous? Come on.

Libertarians are all about the idea of having a small government, less taxes, and more freedom for the people. Is that a bad idea?

And I'm not even white for crying out loud!!! How can I be white supremacist? I'm not crazy enough to accept that white people are the superior race. lol I don't believe in the superiority of ANY particular race for that matter. lol!

To those who believe in government a Libertarian is very dangerous. I was merely reiterating how those who made up the list think. They lump them all into one group. Some see a Gadsden flag and think the guy is a fanatical Libertarian Survivalist with an M60 machine gun in the trunk. I don't. I was surrounded by those types in the Army and then the Reserves. For every nut there were a dozen or so dedicated professionals who didn't define liberty by villifying the federal government.

I agree with Megan Rose. Don't make nasty sexist remarks and the feminists will leave you alone. Heck, you might end up dating a few. To quote a tasteless sexist comment from one of my army buddies: "Date a feminist; they put out on the first date." That guy loved women and would bend over backwards for one and didn't have a sexist bone in his body when he was around women. But around the guys...

Then there was our First Sergeant who made every vicious disgusting sexist remark in the book and even added a few. Every woman was a c**t. Yet, his women friends were among the most independent, self-assured feminists I ever met. They knew that guys who spew that stuff the loudest were often the sweetest guys under it all and usually had a really nasty divorce in their past. As was said: Gripe, bitch and moan all you want, but that doesn't mean I have to listen.

Then there are your card-carrying misogynists. Like some of the early church Fathers who all have Saint in front of their names. I took too many Women's Studies classes in College. lol!

Hawk

megan_rose
Feminism is not an offensive thing, it's a defensive thing. If you don't attack, we won't parry.

I wish the feminists at my college were as nice as the ones you're talking about. I ran into plenty who seemed really angry. It felt like they hated men, and their actions were more about revenge than equality. The worst thing is that they're treating a new generation of men as if they were the sexist generation before them.

It's kind of sad, because I know a lot of feminists aren't like this. Unfortunately, an abrasive feminist is louder than the good kind. Maybe they just feel like they need that anger and spite for any kind of change, but it's the polite feminists that make me feel like we need to change.

You can have a room with 49 nice feminists, and 1 angry one. You tend to notice the angry one more. In fact, it gets to the point where you assume nice women aren't feminists. You're probably surrounded by lots of nice, wonderful, kind women who are actually feminists. But because they aren't in your face about it, you assume they aren't feminists. It's a sort of bad logical circle.
(And by "you" I mean the general "you" rather than you personally, Hawk.)

People have taken "feminist" to mean angry, man-hating, women-are-better-than-men, all up in your face womyn. And while these types of feminists do exist, they are the extremists. The same way not all Christians are right-wing gay-bashers, and not all Muslims want to blow us up. We tend to see the extremist face of any idealism because it pushes itself to the forefront and yells.

Actual feminist ideology is simply: women and men are equal, and should be treated as such. We should be judged by the same standards, and be given the same rewards.

megan_rose
You can have a room with 49 nice feminists, and 1 angry one. You tend to notice the angry one more. In fact, it gets to the point where you assume nice women aren't feminists. You're probably surrounded by lots of nice, wonderful, kind women who are actually feminists. But because they aren't in your face about it, you assume they aren't feminists.

well there's a reason for that. the "angry feminist" (or any other highly aggressive opinionated person, really) both makes feminism look bad AND argues with anyone that's not promoting HER feminism. it's a common problem when dealing with a debate like that, being unable to engage the "Angry opinionated" without it turning into a borderline fight even if you actually agree with them in the original intent of their opinion.

no one wants to be involved with that, so they stay out of it and as a result you don't see the proper, non-extreme version of the opinion. just some crazy angry people that can't show some manners about the matter.

anyways...the point i was trying to make is that the kind of agressive "all-or-nothing" approach to any opinion, not just sexism, is unfortunately common and shouldn't ever be taken as the overall views of a situation without considerable review of the overall opinons involved. usually you'll find that that form of "feminism" has less to do with the rights of women and more to do with hating men. which isn't feminism, it's just being sexist.

YES! i knew i could drag this back on topic somehow!