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Ronson
The point being that arguing that Africans sold into slavery are better off than those that stayed in Africa is a flawed argument because the slave trade and European expansion can be tracked back as the roots of many problems in modern Africa.

So... people who were sold into slavery aren't better off... because... there was slavery...

can you rephrase or something?

Starting over...

The Mr Mxyptlk said:

It seems that the decendants of the orignal slaves are living a far better quality of life in America than they would have if their ancestors had stayed slaves in Africa.

The slave trade was an American/European joint industry, where rival tribes sold their oppenents to the white men, thus throwing the governing system of Africa into turmoil.

The assertion that the decendants of American slaves are better off than those left behind in Africa is flawed, because both sides of the slave trade were destroyed as a result of the American/European venture. Africa today would not be messed up if the American/European slave trade (as well as European colonization) hadn't happened.

(BTW, The assertion that the Africans made slaves in America's only other choice was to be slaves in Africa seems a bit mixed up, so I'm ignoring it. Though Africa did have slaves, it was a different system than the one in the States, and it generally doesn't exist today either.)

Which, if you bring it to it's logical conclusion, means that if you take reparations seriously you have to include the European cultures that profited from African exploitation as well as the United States. Which means that every descendant from the time of European expansion is due reparations.

...which is silly, and why governments can't be held responsible.

BUT

I see no reason why any company or corporation that profited from slavery shouldn't have to pay a penalty for it. In theory, the granting of personhood to a corporation means that the entity known as a corporation bears personal responsibility for their transgressions.

The logical problem? Well, the laws favored the corporations back then, just as they do now. Since government didn't just allow the atrocity of slavery to occur, but actually wrote their laws to help the industry, there is a responsibility there.

Another reason to get rid of corporations, if you ask me.

Ultimately, reparations is an idea that has no boundary lines once it moves from the actual victim to their descendants. Therefore it's a foolish idea.

bobhhh
Or perhaps you think people in Africa are banging their heads against a wall saying, "If only my granmother had the good fortune to be kidnapped, tortured, forced into servitude, raped and had her children sold off, I would be lucky enough to be an American now."

The ancestors of American Blacks were slaves in Africa before they were sold off to Dutch slave traders. Are you saying that being enslaved by your own neighbors is better for ones self esteem than being sold to foreigners?

ronson
The point being that arguing that Africans sold into slavery are better off than those that stayed in Africa is a flawed argument because the slave trade and European expansion can be tracked back as the roots of many problems in modern Africa.

Unless you happen to have a time machine there is nothing we can do about the slave trade. It was a thing that happened. The point was, if one can claim since ones ancestors were slaves they are owed something by those who profited from that slavery then I argue that the descendants of slaves owe the original slave owners a debt for having imported their ancestors from Africa so they didn't have to suffer through the horrible events that happened in Africa for the last 100 years.

After all, what is being rescued from hell worth? Ask anyone who survived the reign of Idi Amin what they would have paid to not have endured that particular hell. Ask someone in Rwanda what they would pay to be an American. Ask someone in Somalia how much American citizenship would be worth to them. Ask someone in Darfur, in the Sudan... Do we really need to list all the really bad places over there?

The people who were sold as slaves to Americans were going to be slaves anyhow. It's not like there was a "get out of slavery" card they were denied by being shipped over here. Why not try to find the silver lining in that particular cloud?

bobhhh

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bobhhh
I'm on the fence about reparations

For crissakes...

What the fuck is wrong about not having made up my mind!?!? What are you genius or something because you are so damn certain??

Please explain why I should have to pay someone for something that I didn't do to someone they never knew a hundred years before they were born.

Mister Mxyzptlk

bobhhh
Or perhaps you think people in Africa are banging their heads against a wall saying, "If only my granmother had the good fortune to be kidnapped, tortured, forced into servitude, raped and had her children sold off, I would be lucky enough to be an American now."

The ancestors of American Blacks were slaves in Africa before they were sold off to Dutch slave traders. Are you saying that being enslaved by your own neighbors is better for ones self esteem than being sold to foreigners?

Um no, most were captured by competing tribes in an attempt to cut their numbers, and make money on the lucrative and demanding European slave market. Also many tribes cut deals with the Europeans to avoid being enslaved themselves, rechececk your history dude.

Shaddup all of ya. Bickering over the roots and motivations of slavery in America is pointless. Slavery is wrong, a number of US farmers bought slaves early in our history. The country had a big war and slavery was ended here. ZIP!

Now if the slaves, the owners, or even the flesh-traders were still alive I'd support a reparations law that forced the wrongdoers to pay for their trespasses.
Unfortunately none of them are still alive that we know of.

Asking for a reparations bill now would be like telling a child he had to go to jail because his mother killed somebody, and promptly following it up by going across the street and telling a complete stranger they too had to go to prison because somebody unrelated to them did something bad. It's lunacy, let the idea drop and die is my vote.

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bobhhh

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bobhhh
I'm on the fence about reparations

For crissakes...

What the fuck is wrong about not having made up my mind!?!? What are you genius or something because you are so damn certain??

Please explain why I should have to pay someone for something that I didn't do to someone they never knew a hundred years before they were born.

Devil's Advocate response:

Because you are a citizen of the country that did atrocious things, and have benefitted from the society that has grown as a result of these atrocities. It's part of your social contract. It's like leaving a tip after seeing your father stiff the waitress.

...again though, I don't think reparations are the way to go.

Ronson
Because you are a citizen of the country that did atrocious things, and have benefitted from the society that has grown as a result of these atrocities.

Not me, I'm a yankee!

Ronson

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bobhhh

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bobhhh
I'm on the fence about reparations

For crissakes...

What the fuck is wrong about not having made up my mind!?!? What are you genius or something because you are so damn certain??

Please explain why I should have to pay someone for something that I didn't do to someone they never knew a hundred years before they were born.

Devil's Advocate response:

Because you are a citizen of the country that did atrocious things, and have benefitted from the society that has grown as a result of these atrocities. It's part of your social contract. It's like leaving a tip after seeing your father stiff the waitress.

...again though, I don't think reparations are the way to go.

I started out by stating I was not sure and I still am, but some folks around here so seem so damn sure they're right, it's just too tempting to make them defend their opinion.

I feel as always, there is a lot of grey area, but to just self righteously claim that black people and Native Americans have no case because it's in the past sounds suspiciously like just the kind of insensitivity that those minorities have come to expect from white folks.

Insensitivity?! Good fucking god, I'm not being insensitive. Slavery was abolished nearly 150 years ago! Nobody who did it, or suffered because of it, is alive any more. So what the hell is reparations going to accomplish? Its not about sensitivity, they're all fucking dead.

if a country has to make reparations for everything it's done it would never get anything done.
case in example iraq.

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Insensitivity?! Good fucking god, I'm not being insensitive. Slavery was abolished nearly 150 years ago! Nobody who did it, or suffered because of it, is alive any more. So what the hell is reparations going to accomplish? Its not about sensitivity, they're all fucking dead.

150 years? It wasn't until less than 40 years agor that civil rights laws were enacted, the fallout of slavery lasted well after the 13th amendment, and many of those funloving lynchers are alive and well. Not to mention the politicians who enacted and supported Jim Crow.

bobhhh
And this boo hoo about why do only black people get reparations, are you people fkn serious? Aside from Native americans, NOBODY IN HISTORY has been dehumanized and treated like animals they way black people were. Throughout history slaves were never treated as subhuman, they were spoils of war and victims of unfair legal systems, but never commonly thought of as animals too primitive to deserve the blessings of liberty.

Asians were treated the same way at one point in Ameirca too. there was litterally hundreds and hundreds of chiense living here but they were never given legal citzen rights, as it was ruled at the time that they weren't really "people" and were just seen as conivent labor, espeically for working on railroads. and they were worked to death too.
And don't even get me started on that time period where there was outbrusts of random violence against the Asians in those railroad camps.... so many lives were taken in that time period.

And the Irish people who came to america was treated in the same way...carted off to work on the railroads, never given legal citizen rights just because they were irish...also worked to death just like the Asians.

So I believe my point still stands that Blacks weren't the only one to be thought of as subhuman and better off as slaves.

Actually, given that many, many slaves were sold to the Europeans by their own African tribal leaders in the first place, if anyone should be offering reparations to their descendants, it's probably the African nations.

But since they probably can't afford it, let's all just go harrass big white corporate America instead. After all, that's a far less controversial target.

Aurora Moon

bobhhh
And this boo hoo about why do only black people get reparations, are you people fkn serious? Aside from Native americans, NOBODY IN HISTORY has been dehumanized and treated like animals they way black people were. Throughout history slaves were never treated as subhuman, they were spoils of war and victims of unfair legal systems, but never commonly thought of as animals too primitive to deserve the blessings of liberty.

Asians were treated the same way at one point in Ameirca too. there was litterally hundreds and hundreds of chiense living here but they were never given legal citzen rights, as it was ruled at the time that they weren't really "people" and were just seen as conivent labor, espeically for working on railroads. and they were worked to death too.
And don't even get me started on that time period where there was outbrusts of random violence against the Asians in those railroad camps.... so many lives were taken in that time period.

And the Irish people who came to america was treated in the same way...carted off to work on the railroads, never given legal citizen rights just because they were irish...also worked to death just like the Asians.

So I believe my point still stands that Blacks weren't the only one to be thought of as subhuman and better off as slaves.

I don't remember any segregation laws against Irish people. I don't remember any mass lynchings of chinese. And I don't remember bounty hunters chasing them down if they decided to leave a job, because THEY WEREN"T SLAVES. Sure eveybody had it bad on arrival, but no one as bad as black people who had their humanity stripped away by the constitution and the Natives who nearly suffered genocide.

bobhhh
150 years? It wasn't until less than 40 years agor that civil rights laws were enacted, the fallout of slavery lasted well after the 13th amendment, and many of those funloving lynchers are alive and well. Not to mention the politicians who enacted and supported Jim Crow.

What does any of that have to do with slavery, Bob?

bobhhh

Aurora Moon

bobhhh
And this boo hoo about why do only black people get reparations, are you people fkn serious? Aside from Native Americans, NOBODY IN HISTORY has been dehumanized and treated like animals they way black people were. Throughout history slaves were never treated as subhuman, they were spoils of war and victims of unfair legal systems, but never commonly thought of as animals too primitive to deserve the blessings of liberty.

Asians were treated the same way at one point in America too. there was literally hundreds and hundreds of Chinese living here but they were never given legal citizen rights, as it was ruled at the time that they weren't really "people" and were just seen as conivent labor, especially for working on railroads. and they were worked to death too.
And don't even get me started on that time period where there was outbursts of random violence against the Asians in those railroad camps.... so many lives were taken in that time period.

And the Irish people who came to America was treated in the same way...carted off to work on the railroads, never given legal citizen rights just because they were irish...also worked to death just like the Asians.

So I believe my point still stands that Blacks weren't the only one to be thought of as subhuman and better off as slaves.

I don't remember any segregation laws against Irish people. I don't remember any mass lynchings of Chinese. And I don't remember bounty hunters chasing them down if they decided to leave a job, because THEY WEREN"T SLAVES. Sure eveybody had it bad on arrival, but no one as bad as black people who had their humanity stripped away by the constitution and the Natives who nearly suffered genocide.

So, you're saying that because one race suffered more than other races, it makes the suffering of other races less valid? like the sufferings of others don't exist at all.

All suffering isn't equal, but is it fair to focus on only one type of suffering above other types?

It's like saying the Holocaust is so much better than the hismrosa of Japan because millions of people got tortured before getting killed instead of being bombed.
Yet, both of those events are atrocities, which we should learn from, and do everything in our power to prevent from happening ever again.

And to be honest here--Do you really think that money will ever make it all better? That any amount of money will ever erase the pain and the suffering of millions in history?

I'm sorry, but I think it's rather shallow to think that money alone will make everything better. In fact it seems almost more of a method to pay off the victims so that they would shut up, etc. and even just a quick fix for people who want to feel good but actually do nothing.
"I'm just paying them off to feel better about myself. So now I can feel good about myself without really having learned about anything that their ancestors went though!"

I think it would be just better to do something more useful.... like actually making an effort to help out any person who are suffering from similar situations.
I think it might mean a lot more to an Native American, A black person/etc... if millions of people were to know about their ancestors' plight, and really KNOW and UNDERSTAND what they went though....
And then hold those lessons close to our hearts, and to swear that we would never forget such horrible events. That we would never forget. Because to forget those events is also to forget the lessons given to us by it.
I think that gives them more RESPECT and dignity more than money could ever give.

Aurora Moon

bobhhh

Aurora Moon

bobhhh
And this boo hoo about why do only black people get reparations, are you people fkn serious? Aside from Native Americans, NOBODY IN HISTORY has been dehumanized and treated like animals they way black people were. Throughout history slaves were never treated as subhuman, they were spoils of war and victims of unfair legal systems, but never commonly thought of as animals too primitive to deserve the blessings of liberty.

Asians were treated the same way at one point in America too. there was literally hundreds and hundreds of Chinese living here but they were never given legal citizen rights, as it was ruled at the time that they weren't really "people" and were just seen as conivent labor, especially for working on railroads. and they were worked to death too.
And don't even get me started on that time period where there was outbursts of random violence against the Asians in those railroad camps.... so many lives were taken in that time period.

And the Irish people who came to America was treated in the same way...carted off to work on the railroads, never given legal citizen rights just because they were irish...also worked to death just like the Asians.

So I believe my point still stands that Blacks weren't the only one to be thought of as subhuman and better off as slaves.

I don't remember any segregation laws against Irish people. I don't remember any mass lynchings of Chinese. And I don't remember bounty hunters chasing them down if they decided to leave a job, because THEY WEREN"T SLAVES. Sure eveybody had it bad on arrival, but no one as bad as black people who had their humanity stripped away by the constitution and the Natives who nearly suffered genocide.

So, you're saying that because one race suffered more than other races, it makes the suffering of other races less valid? like the sufferings of others don't exist at all.

All suffering isn't equal, but is it fair to focus on only one type of suffering above other types?

It's like saying the Holocaust is so much better than the hismrosa of Japan because millions of people got tortured before getting killed instead of being bombed.
Yet, both of those events are atrocities, which we should learn from, and do everything in our power to prevent from happening ever again.

And to be honest here--Do you really think that money will ever make it all better? That any amount of money will ever erase the pain and the suffering of millions in history?

I'm sorry, but I think it's rather shallow to think that money alone will make everything better. In fact it seems almost more of a method to pay off the victims so that they would shut up, etc. and even just a quick fix for people who want to feel good but actually do nothing.
"I'm just paying them off to feel better about myself. So now I can feel good about myself without really having learned about anything that their ancestors went though!"

I think it would be just better to do something more useful.... like actually making an effort to help out any person who are suffering from similar situations.
I think it might mean a lot more to an Native American, A black person/etc... if millions of people were to know about their ancestors' plight, and really KNOW and UNDERSTAND what they went though....
And then hold those lessons close to our hearts, and to swear that we would never forget such horrible events. That we would never forget. Because to forget those events is also to forget the lessons given to us by it.
I think that gives them more RESPECT and dignity more than money could ever give.

You have a very good point there, which I can't really dispute, especially since I don't really buy into reparations as a solution to the problem. I do think there is a matter of degree of difference in all those examples, but that of course as you imply doesn't denigrate their suffering.

I guess I'm spent on this subject. I yield back the balance of my time. :)

I am not an American, but I have a question, after having read some posts and skimmed through others (so if someone mentioned this, I'm sorry for reiterating):

You speak as if the time of slavery and whatnot in the US was a time of havoc. It was not. Everything was very well in order and that means one very solid thing: papers. It should be relatively easy to look through the archives and see just who was a slave and who was not, and just who made a fortune on the back of slaves and who did not.

After that, it should also be easy to see who needs reparations and who does not, shouldn't it? After all, a corporation is not the same as an individual and a dynasty is not the same as a single family which has faded across time.

The problem is that nobody is serious about giving responsibility where it is due, and all that happens is people turn against each other feeling both rightful in saying they are not to blame, or that they are.

If anyone wanted to truly make reparations, they wouldn't be done in the sense of paying out any cash, but in making sure it does not happen again- and there are more forms of slavery than the one with the dogs and the shackles... and not many are keen on abolishing it.

Actually no its not that easy, most of those records have been lost or destroyed and official slave registries did not exist or were destroyed during the civil war.
Additionally, there has been so many cross-over blood-lines that many of the would-be recipients are equally related to the the wrongdoers. (nobody likes to mention that but it is true).

Finally where's my reparation? My fore bearers were almost exclusively European, yet my first American ancestor's came to this country as indentured servants (debt-slaves). They were collateral to their family or village debts and forced to work in the same way before the African trade ever made its way to American ports. You don't hear me screaming at the royal houses of Europe or the descendants of the plantation owners.

Look far enough back and you'll find everybody wronged somebody, sometime, somewhere. The only way we can survive as a society is to forgive our wrongs, let the past lay as is, and move forward as equals. We can't correct the wrongs of the past, nor punish the ones who committed them. The only thing we can do is remember not to repeat them.

bobhhh
And this boo hoo about why do only black people get reparations, are you people fkn serious? Aside from Native americans, NOBODY IN HISTORY has been dehumanized and treated like animals they way black people were. Throughout history slaves were never treated as subhuman, they were spoils of war and victims of unfair legal systems, but never commonly thought of as animals too primitive to deserve the blessings of liberty.

you mean in America right?
Because I can think of many other people groups which had it much worse.

Yes I meant in America.

bobhhh
Yes I meant in America.

Um hate to be the devils advocate here but how the frick would you know? were you there?
Like bobhhh mentioned Native Americans had their humanity taken from them long before and far more severely. From Columbus on, the real Americans were treated like animals and abused. at least slaves were considered property to be maintained, indians were hunted and given small pox blankets. Don't take my words to mean the africans had it easy I'm just trying to keep some perspective on this.

i don't think there is a receipt for buying a slave.
and a person shouldn't be responsible for all slavery.
a person owned slaves, but so did mostly everyone in the south.

they never thought it was wrong. why do you think they were religious, but still owned slaves. also jefferson owned slaves, but he treated some of them like family.

slavery is wrong, but even jefferson who wanted to free his slaves had to keep them because without them he would have gone broke. he said during the growing era of the US it was a necessary evil.

if the US had to pay for reparations, which is doing bad to other people, then it should extend to child labors, immigrant labor ( a lot of dead chinese and irish died making the railroad). People were exploited, and it's not an excuse but the US was a young broke country. everyone was broke.

it's like a person who is really hungry will kill or steal just to eat.

hmm thats a perspective I'd never considered before. The necessary evil defense. Kind of like killing in self-defense in concept... remind me to never run against subcultured in an election, he is a clever one.

Still its not the point. Point is we can't be held liable for the crimes of ancestors we may not even have. Nor should we have to pay money for those crimes to people who were not personally wronged by them. I'm all for heritage and culture but at this point we should give up our differences and accept our countrymen as our fellows not our enemies.

and oh yeah heres a picture of a typical bill of sale (receipt) for slaves circa 1840s for those who are curious

bobhhh

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bobhhh
I'm on the fence about reparations

For crissakes...

What the fuck is wrong about not having made up my mind!?!? What are you genius or something because you are so damn certain??

Actually you already made a forceful enough argument against reparations to be in a solid position.

But here's my position:


(1) If any one group deserves reparations first in the handout line, it's native Americans. So any discussion of reparations is meaningless without discussing that first. (And please don't give me the bullshit about them getting rich from owning casinos.)

(2) Only a certain percentage of the non-African people in America had ancestors here before 1861. Why should someone whose great-grandparents arrived on Ellis Island in 1906 have to pay reparations to former slaves?

(3) For every rich white southerner whose slave-owning family survived the War Between the States, there are probably twenty white southerners whose ancestors lived in poverty in that era---and never owned slaves in the first place.

(4) For every rich white southerner whose slave-owning family survived the War Between the States, there are probably half a dozen white southerners whose ancestors lost everything in the war, had their plantations taken away, assets seized, houses burned, and so on. (By the way, Washington D.C. still owes the state of Georgia reparations for Sherman's March to the Sea.)

(5) If you were to filter the US population demographically using research of points (2), (3), and (4), above, I believe you would come up with a very small percentage of people remaining who truly qualify as having benefited economically from the slave labor of African Americans.

If social engineers want to help African-Americans from the deep South, why don't they start by trying to undo the mess the government made in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina?

bobhhh
150 years? It wasn't until less than 40 years ago that civil rights laws were enacted, the fallout of slavery lasted well after the 13th amendment, and many of those fun loving lynchers are alive and well. Not to mention the politicians who enacted and supported Jim Crow.

Yeah, lets keep that hate alive! Keep everyone angry and worked up over this! After all, it's only been four generations since slavery ended! Come on, most African tribes kept their grudges FAR longer than that and the Arabs are holding grudges from 1000 years ago!! Are we gonna let a bunch of third world tribes out do us on grudges? Hell no!

Hate whitey! Hate whitey! Hate whitey!

Hate whitey! Hate whitey! Hate whitey!

Hate whitey! Hate whitey! Hate whitey!

Hate whitey! Hate whitey! Hate whitey!

Hate whitey! Hate whitey! Hate whitey!

Mister Mxyzptlk

bobhhh
150 years? It wasn't until less than 40 years ago that civil rights laws were enacted, the fallout of slavery lasted well after the 13th amendment, and many of those fun loving lynchers are alive and well. Not to mention the politicians who enacted and supported Jim Crow.

Yeah, lets keep that hate alive! Keep everyone angry and worked up over this! After all, it's only been four generations since slavery ended! Come on, most African tribes kept their grudges FAR longer than that and the Arabs are holding grudges from 1000 years ago!! Are we gonna let a bunch of third world tribes out do us on grudges? Hell no!

Hate whitey! Hate whitey! Hate whitey!

Hate whitey! Hate whitey! Hate whitey!

Hate whitey! Hate whitey! Hate whitey!

Hate whitey! Hate whitey! Hate whitey!

Hate whitey! Hate whitey! Hate whitey!

Slavery didn't end when the Civil War did. The system was just slightly altered so that black people lived on the plantation for no pay and worked excessively long hours to cover their room and board. Remember, the minimum wage wasn't created until 1938.

One thing is for sure, racism certainly hasn't ended yet. As a result of racism up until Equal Opportunity and Affirmitive Action, minorities have been firmly entrenched in the lower classes. EO and AA address the issue, but have only started changing the way things were.

Now, of course, we are looking at class warfare. Race isn't as important as economic class, and a very wide gap between the rich and poor is only getting wider, and the middle class is disappearing.

To deny these things because "they're in the past" is to deny that they are affecting us today.

To pretend like everything was fixed at the end of the Civil War and anyone complaining about unfair treatment since then seems incredibly ... well, ignorant of the facts.

I don't think anybody in their right minds could honestly deny the travesties of the past. Neither could any sane person truly think they can make up for them in the here and now. The only way I've ever found to heal a hurt or wrong is to forgive it, and move forward. We have enough troubles in our own time without drudging up the mistakes and crimes of the past. Let us remember what happened to ensure we never do it again. Bickering over it though is harmful to our progress as a species.

I know a lot of people will disagree with me, and keep in mind, this is just an opinion.

I think black people SHOULD be paid reparations. Why? Because it WAS a horrible thing many of our forefathers did. Because black people still, after all this time, are not represented fairly by this nation. Look around the senate and congress floors, hell, even the White house and you'll see old, WHITE men. So, if reparations is a way for black people to be on 'even ground' with white people, I'm all for it. Black people will get more of a say in the government, and I would think that the money would mostly be absorbed back into the national economy in some form, anyway.

HOWEVER, if this happens, no more NAACP, no more United Negro College Fund, no more affirmative action (at least for black people). If we are all finally 'on the same page' financially (and in many cases, black people will advance white people financially), then these organizations (and ones like them) will lose legitimacy. It would be like an organization opening up that just helps white people.

Who can say unequivocally who owes who?
Do those of mexican, chinese, and other ethnicities have to pay as well?
what about the ~500,000 african immigrants who came to this country since the year 2000? would they be given some of the reparation funds too? or would they have to pay into it like the rest of us. A reparations bill would be devisive and encourage differences not settle them.

also while washington is run by crochety old white men there is an equivalent percentage of minorities as well:

African-American Members: 42 in House; 1 in Senate.
Hispanic-American Members: 27 in House; 3 in Senate
Asian-American Members: 4 in House; 2 in Senate
Native American Members: 1 in House; 0 in Senate
Arab American: 0 in House; 1 in Senate.