ozoneocean

BffSatan
I suppose this discussion is moot as we can never really understand what was in Og's mind when he decided to worship the fire God.

This is another simplification. The development of the first religions would've been far more gradual and very closely tied with the day to day life, routine and social hierarchy of early tribal groups. -routine becomes tradition, tradition becomes ritual etc.

I know, I know Ozone, I was kidding. Using a simplification to say what I really meant about how we will never truly understand how or why religion developed; only theorize.

Is it actually true to say that religious types are more anti-atheist than anti-other religions?

As a non-believer myself, I have to say I've never encountered any hostility. I more often find that religious people just don't understand the concept of atheism. It's so obvious to them that there is a god (of some description), that not believing in one just seems to fly in the face of logic (as far as they're concerned) - as if someone had said they didn't believe there was any such thing as the colour blue!

Oh look, this topic again. I was wondering when another was going to pop up.

Well, as far as the original question goes I don't have a problem with atheists or other religions (same goes with the majority of my community). But I think for the most part, the problem religious people have with atheists is the same reason that atheists have a problem with religious people: conflicting beliefs.

Speaking from a religious background myself, I don't think it has anything to do with being unable to understand someone not believing in God (I've had my moments), but more about the bashing (at least from my POV). I'm not saying all atheists bash religious people, but it IS the extremists that stand out the most, atheist, religious or otherwise.

Personally, I'm fine if someone doesn't have the same beliefs as I do, so long as they don't shove it in my face. And the same goes with just about anyone really. I DO hate those douche bag atheists who assume that because I'm religious I'm some sort of back water hick who hates black people, science, gays and thinks evolution is of the devil. But I also hate those bible-thumping Christian douche bags who believes everyone is going to hell because their god has another name or they don't have one.

I think it's quite silly that the religion is all about acceptance, love thy neighbor and whatnot, and yet some of these people can't grasp the concept that someone has a different idea of what is higher power (or none).

Anyway, that's my two cents. I estimate that this thread will come up again in about two to three months. $20 says I'm right.

For a religious person to hate atheists is a paradigm, after all God can only be an atheist.

But the real problem for me to have faith is that God seems to speak to some bloke and tells him that I should do and say as he (the bloke) tells me. Give him some money, mow his lawn, etcetera. I must admit that I would be more predisposed to believe if it was the other way round. But then you can't expect much from me, I'm only an evolved monkey.

One day this very religious man was happily walking on the top of a cliff praying to his God, when suddenly he missed a step and started falling down the steep cliff. Luckily he was able to hold onto a shrub growing there. I this desperate position he called out for help. Nobody answered and just as he was going to let go he heard a celestial voice that said -"Hello, son I'm your father. Just let go and I will send a bunch of angels to stop you from hitting the ground." after thinking for a few seconds the man cried "Is there anybody else?

Astar
But the real problem for me to have faith is that God seems to speak to some bloke and tells him that I should do and say as he (the bloke) tells me.

I'm not a religious person, but that's not the opposite of atheism. Belief in a deity doesn't mean you have any obligation to it, or even you to it.

Astar
But then you can't expect much from me, I'm only an evolved monkey.

Only a monkey is an evolved monkey. A human is an evolved human. Just like you're not a descendant of your distant cousin in another capital city, nor are they your ancestors. :)

I made the mistake of trying to have a rational debate with some religious people via YouTube comments (a fool's errand, I know). Most the the responses I got included (paraphrased):


"Atheists believe in nothing!"

"You worship Satan, why don't you go to hell, you fire-branded devil!"

"Do you think God is going to let you into heaven if you don't believe in him?"

"Einstein was a christian and didn't believe in Atheism!"

"Atheism is a religion and you are just believing on blind faith!"



All I know is, it's 2010 and I'm ashamed for my species that religion still maintains control of society and still hinders scientific and moral progress.

F Y R E 13 R A N D
trying to have a rational debate with some religious people via YouTube comments.

Just... don't. It'll save you from developing gastric ulcers.

So true PP

Genejoke
Pretty broad and pretty simple.

Why do religions have more of a problem with atheism than other religions?

I call myself an atheist but some people have said I am more agnostic. To clear up I don't believe in god as depicted in the bible. I do not believe any omnipotent being had anything to do with the bible or any other holy book.
I do however accept that there are things we do not understand and may never understand.

What I don't get is why religious types see atheists as more of a threat than other religions.

Before I say anything, I have to warn I didn't read the thread at all, so anything I say that has already been mentioned, forgive me.

Now, onwards to the question.

Threat perception is more often than not a bilateral affair in that both parties peceive some sort of threat from each other for friction to be perpetuated. It takes two to tango in all cases, and such continuous wars on religion and God and who is right in their beliefs implies that both parties feel threatened enough to develop animosity.

If someone to whom you address a religion-related question bristles or immediately becomes defensive, chances are that:

1. you asked something they too secretly are asking and are afraid to look for the answer to, thus becoming angry when you force them to address the issue that frightens them as well even at a superficial level
2. they don't know the answer to your question and feel that it's a blow to their belief that they do not
3. they are manipulators that don't much care about the religion (or atheism) they are profession to adhere to but DO care to subdue their peers with their assertions, thus when questioned their authority is threatened and they try to bite your head off
4. they have been so traumatized by being ganged-up upon solely on the basis of their beliefs that they don't stop to check whether you and your questions are sincere or just an excuse for them to become targets and punching bags, so they blow up at you in advance just to save themselves the harassment.

I think you can see that this can hold for both atheists and any religion followers, be they Christian or Pagan or Muslim or what have you.

There has been much bad blood from both sides, due to evil people that have used ideals and beliefs and faith for their own nefarious purposes, cheating people into following them rather than follow the Creed they officially ascribe to, that it takes a lot of personal introspection, thought and respect of Human Rights to be able to rise above this exact mutual threatening feeling when the subject of religion vs atheism is breached.

It also takes a lot of faith not to pounce on someone who doesn't share your belief and dogma- and in my experience, it also means not to be ingrained to typolatry and the official churches, who pretty much fanatize people even in the cases where that is in breach with the actual Dogma.

My two cents for you, as a Christian and a Hellene :)

I come from an agnostic family. My dad sometimes switches between saying he's an atheist and just plain being unsure.

I hope that there is something but live my life like there isn't. Because death is a SCARY concept the more you know about it. And it's even scarier if there's nothing better on the other side. It's perfectly understandable that people don't want to know or believe that there will be something better to go to. Where people that deserve it go while the people that made others miserable go somewhere else or cease to exist.

Despite my depression about the whole thing, I still always pick science above faith. Although I put a lot of speculation into some science, too. Like humanity being wiped out in the next 10 thousand years. We survived a world wide extinction of life before when there was even LESS of us than there are now. It just doesn't seem logical to make that assumption based on the evidence from the past. Even if we blew ourselves up we'd only have our superpowers blown up and out in the middle of nowhere small communities will start us all up again.

Humans are a persistant species. We're like the Japanese knotweed of mammals. If you don't destroy us all we keep coming back.

Genejoke
Why do religions have more of a problem with atheism than other religions?

Okay, this is coming from a guy who believes in God and has "skimmed" through the bible a few times.

I'm going to make the assumption that it's because it directly opposes what the bible teaches. Like if you grew up believing in God and someone tries to disprove it. I'm not going to say that Atheism is right or wrong, I'm just saying why I think it's hated.

Muslims and other religions, I'm not so sure.

Byth1

Genejoke
Why do religions have more of a problem with atheism than other religions?

Okay, this is coming from a guy who believes in God and has "skimmed" through the bible a few times.

I'm going to make the assumption that it's because it directly opposes what the bible teaches. Like if you grew up believing in God and someone tries to disprove it. I'm not going to say that Atheism is right or wrong, I'm just saying why I think it's hated.

Muslims and other religions, I'm not so sure.

Yup,it's the issue with rejection of "gift" of sentience Atheists reject and refuse to give credit to God,instead they claim it was evolution that separated humans from animals.
Other reson I can think of is that some people view atheists as bitter,immature people who have given upon God because they didn't want to be held responsible for problems in their lives,and they blame God for that.Ofcourse,this is BS,but some religious people do think of it that way.
Most atheists grew up in atleast partly religious homes,and most of them were baptised in the process,or even taken the other two adolescent sacraments,so that makes religious arguments stronger,and doesn't help the atheist case.
Guess they could also interpret how atheists reject their culture and family values that way,since every nation has their history and culture closely tied to religion.Hence,there is more tolerance for Islam and other religions.

BTW-I'm an atheist,so I'm just theorising here

I think it has to be considered that the question is asked wrongly. As in, the better question would be "Why do people claiming they represent an idea or set of ideas tend to have enmity and/or hostility with people claiming they represent an opposing idea/set of ideas?"

The answer for the religion wars CANNOT be found in these answers you are giving, because you are just reiterating propaganda, barring of course the cases where the religious dogma ITSELF DIRECTLY teaches its followers to massacre non-followers. (however NOT if such a conviction is solely based on the INTERPRETATIONS of the religion's sacerdocy)

The phenomenon is not just for religion clashes, but for nearly ANY type of similar ascription to 'camps' where there is more ulterior motive than anyone is willing to admit to.

That's why you have similar 'wars' in scientific theory camps, reglardless what science we are talking about (from math to psychology), similar 'wars' to political theories and social theories (communism vs capitalism, anyone?) similar 'wars' to economic models (liberalism vs stateism) and so on and so forth.

And if you draw the common denominators for all of these, you will see that stripped of all the propaganda and beautiful words, it is ALWAYS about power, domination, and money.

This an answer on a more macro level as opposed to my micro level of personal reasons why you may find someone at your throat for nearly anything you say you disagree with him/her for, as long as it's theory, belief, or idea. ;)

Tantz Aerine
I think it has to be considered that the question is asked wrongly. As in, the better question would be "Why do people claiming they represent an idea or set of ideas tend to have enmity and/or hostility with people claiming they represent an opposing idea/set of ideas?"

The answer for the religion wars CANNOT be found in these answers you are giving, because you are just reiterating propaganda, barring of course the cases where the religious dogma ITSELF DIRECTLY teaches its followers to massacre non-followers. (however NOT if such a conviction is solely based on the INTERPRETATIONS of the religion's sacerdocy)

The phenomenon is not just for religion clashes, but for nearly ANY type of similar ascription to 'camps' where there is more ulterior motive than anyone is willing to admit to.

That's why you have similar 'wars' in scientific theory camps, reglardless what science we are talking about (from math to psychology), similar 'wars' to political theories and social theories (communism vs capitalism, anyone?) similar 'wars' to economic models (liberalism vs stateism) and so on and so forth.

And if you draw the common denominators for all of these, you will see that stripped of all the propaganda and beautiful words, it is ALWAYS about power, domination, and money.

This an answer on a more macro level as opposed to my micro level of personal reasons why you may find someone at your throat for nearly anything you say you disagree with him/her for, as long as it's theory, belief, or idea. ;)

No the original question was why are we atheists a bigger issue to them than other religions. Sort like saying why do communists have a bigger problem with capitalists than Facists (example only). The rest of your points are well made though.

Genejoke
No the original question was why are we atheists a bigger issue to them than other religions. Sort like saying why do communists have a bigger problem with capitalists than Facists (example only). The rest of your points are well made though.

I answered that too, in my first post. If you think your question isn't covered yet, please just ask again and I'll respond.

If you want the fascist-communist-capitalist issue answered too, I will oblige too ;)

No need on that last point, it should be really obvious to anyone... I hope. But we don't want to derail the topic...

I've debated atheism and religion quite a lot for a 16-year-old, and I used to debate that there is no god, that religion was but a way for explaining the unexplained. I still believe that, but I've taken a different attitude. Who cares? I'm not going to be able to change anyone's beliefs and even if I did it wouldn't matter. Let's let people believe what they want to believe. I don't think god exists and I do think that when I die, nothing more will come of me. I believe that when you die, nothing more will come of you. So why should I care if you believe in a religion or not? Well I don't. And, honestly, I think people would get along better if we all had that attitude.

I mean, just today actually, I had to lead the chapel service at school because I was asked to (it involves a lot of god-be-with-yous and I had to say it in front of the entire school) but I did it despite my beliefs. I did not want to and I felt hypocritical, but I still did it.

Actually, I don't see 'Atheism' as another religion really.
Religion is based on the concept of faith and belief in things beyond the corporeal and measurable.
Atheists are atheists due to a complete lack of those beliefs.

It's not a way of life, or a code people live by; it's just a lack of the conventional collective way of thought about the universe as a whole.

That has been categorized as 'Atheists/ism', but it's not a philosophy that Atheists consciously subscribe to as an organization (majority, some actually do :| )

Some very interesting points in this thread so far.
Personally, I feel that the issue comes down to tolerance towards someone's beliefs or lack thereof.

It's often said that Atheists are always putting down the Religious and religion in general, but I see that as them voicing their opinions and beliefs.
What I don't understand is why the Religious take gross offence to that, and get defensive, when Atheists don't get offended during the multiple times a year that there's vaious holidays/celebrations that are religiously inclined.

As misguided as I may think the Religious are for their beliefs, I won't attack someone unless their responses are anything less than civil or are disrespectful.
So I would expect the same treatement when I say 'I don't think there is a God', but what follows most of the time is a personal attack against my morals, spirituality, etc without even knowing me.

TheShah
Actually, I don't see 'Atheism' as another religion really.

I agree.
I've regarded aetheism as a loose equivalent to political "independents" who co-exist with those who are strongly affiliated with a political party. There's quite a spectrum.

As to organized religion: Many begin with the teachings/insights of individuals (such as Jesus, Mohammad, Buddha) who are later deified by their followers, even though these three are known to have been men who walked the earth. Additionally, most religions structure a rule system to test the worthiness of one's existence and/or possible redemption. And the spirituality that inspires the need for religion (for those who need religion) gets rather lost in the shuffle.

I call myself a spiritual person. I do believe that there is a greater power, whether that is "God" or "Great Spirit" or Gravity, I don't know and I don't really care. I believe there is a something. But I make mistakes ALL THE TIME (I have a great talent in that area) and cannot imagine insisting that some one else needs to assume what I believe. As for organized religion, if it helps some one be a kinder, more tolerant person to oneself and to others, then it's great. I personally don't think I need the rules, tho.

Hey, and welcome Shah. Stepping right up to the plate :)

ayesinback

TheShah
Actually, I don't see 'Atheism' as another religion really.

As for organized religion, if it helps some one be a kinder, more tolerant person to oneself and to others, then it's great. I personally don't think I need the rules, tho.

Hey, and welcome Shah. Stepping right up to the plate :)

That is exactly how I think.
If religion helps someone be a better person, then awesome. Regardless of how much I agree/disagree/ridicule the traditions and or practises... whatever works for you.

However, I think that religious zealots place more emphasis on the literal aspects of religious teachings rather than the symbolic context in which they should be taken, and derive moral lessons from them that transcends era, culture and even religion.


Thanks aysineback, looking forward to me time here.

ayesinback
I've regarded aetheism as a loose equivalent to political "independents" who co-exist with those who are strongly affiliated with a political party. There's quite a spectrum.

Actually, I would say that Agnostics are the TRUE "independents". In the whole realm of "is there a God or not?"

Christians have decided, yes.
Muslims have decided, yes.
Jews have decided, yes.
Atheists have decided, no.

While there is no organized religion, I think of Atheism as a belief.

A true lack of belief would be Agnostic. IE. Don't know one way or the other.
Atheism is not that. Atheism says that "There is no God". As you cannot prove a negative, it requires some sort of belief to hold that line of thought.

That is why I find Agnostics to be much more scientific/ secular than Atheists, because they freely admit that they have no idea.

Now that is not to say Atheists, or Agnostics, or Christians, or what have you, are bad people. I respect everyone's right to believe or disbelieve whatever they want.

But I really cannot equate Atheism with a lack of belief. Lack definitely would be in the middle and that would be agnostic.

Ah yes... religion vs atheism.

Its one of those favorite sidetrack issues that happen in pretty much every other forum out there that isnt even about religious debate club.

It gets pretty annoying (and at times funny). Both sides are equally guilty.

Its like I join a forum that suppose to be about cats (hypothetical topic but you get the point) but it all turned out to be this endless debate between the christians and atheists who just feed the endless loop.

Eh?

Kyupol made a funny.

Genejoke
Eh?

Kyupol made a funny.

quick, ignore him. it's some kinda dirty cat lover trick.

Orin J Master

Genejoke
Eh?

Kyupol made a funny.

quick, ignore him. it's some kinda dirty cat lover trick.

All right you evil Illuminati Bilderbergers what have you done with the real kyupol?

He's probably being held by the Grey aliens in one of the secret underground bases in the American Southwest.

Loud_G
That is why I find Agnostics to be much more scientific/ secular than Atheists, because they freely admit that they have no idea.

True. And it's often been said that a good scientist should approach any concept with an agnostic frame of mind...
-not exactly in that way of course though, that's my own phrasing because I'm a genius at phrasing things well :)

Loud_G

ayesinback
I've regarded aetheism as a loose equivalent to political "independents" who co-exist with those who are strongly affiliated with a political party. There's quite a spectrum.

Actually, I would say that Agnostics are the TRUE "independents". In the whole realm of "is there a God or not?"

Christians have decided, yes.
Muslims have decided, yes.
Jews have decided, yes.
Atheists have decided, no.

While there is no organized religion, I think of Atheism as a belief.

A true lack of belief would be Agnostic. IE. Don't know one way or the other.

If we continued with the metaphor, I suggest that Agnostics are the ones who don't vote at all and Atheists are those who will not register with a party. But I think it's better to toss away the metaphor because it doesn't fit well.

I also think there's a fourth group: those who believe in a God-sort of entity but do not believe in organized religion. Not sure what to call these folk, but I think they're numbers are growing as too many people associated with organized religions (interesting that idea: to structure faith) have become overbearingly hypocritical in not living the creed/s that the religion's founders have propounded.

There's one thing to being a fanatic (like: support 10:10 or die) but to act in hate when most organized religions preach to act in tolerance is beyond fanaticism.

On the other hand, to be coolly asperger-like in the pursuit of knowledge can lead to discoveries that are then utilized by others in horrific ways never intended by the knowledge-hunters (thinking of the A-bomb here). Total objectivity can be even more devastating than fanaticism --- at least fanatics are more easily recognizable.
---
Incidentally, for those interested, one of the small NJ papers is doing a survey about religious views and hopes to represent all. You can add yours to the mix by filling out the online survey (until the 17 Oct) at
http://www.zoomerang.com/Survey/WEB22ARDFQAY2F

Just FYI, that survey is freakin' long! I thought it was gonna be like ten questions, but there's 65 of 'em. Mostly multiple choice though, so it wasn't so bad.

And btw how are we defining Atheist and Agnostic here? Because I consider myself an atheist, but I don't necessarily claim to know one way or another whether Yahweh or any other deity actually exists; I just consider it unlikely enough that I don't believe in it, like the Loch Ness Monster or Bigfoot. Possible. But highly unlikely.

What he said.