Wow, I’ve had some vicious feedback from one or two creators on other sites about my decision to include a sexual assault scene in Issue 3 of Ministry.

I mean, I’m open to constructive criticism and feedback, just not verbal abuse. And I’m sure that everyone here feels the same.

I certainly don't think that rape should be shown for titillation. However, if it's necessary for the story (think Alan Moore's Watchman), it can be included. Another example of rape that was brutal (although not overly graphic, which was good) was in the Oscar-award winning Monster. This was important turning point for the character as it becomes her motivation for the murders she later commits.

Before I put the rape scene in Issue 3 (which is shown in a montage of images, not page after page of brutalization), I thought long and hard about whether or not it's significant to the story. Having decided it was I illustrated it in such a way that it is not raw or graphic while still keeping the character's dignity intact.

She is shown as brave and resilient for surviving this attack and not as a victim.

So what is the view here on controversial scenes like sexual assault or gay relationships in comics?

Well imo, if it's a (great) turning point of the story/plot/characters then I don't mind it :).

If i wanted a page after page of rape in a comic, then I can easily google it XD

It annoys me that portraying gay relationships is still controversial, but I'll bite on the issue of sexual assault.

I agree with you there - it's all in the handling. Rape is a serious and damaging issue, so that including it for cheap drama (or, God forbid, to laugh at or fetishize it) is definitely out in my opinion. But pretending like it doesn't exist is a stupid response as well, so I don't think it should be out of the question to portray it in fiction.

Everybody's gonna have a different idea of what's a sensitive handling of the issue, but I think it's okay as long as the author has a good reason for including it (being significant to the story, as per your example) and they don't shy away from showing its effects.

(And if the author does a story about how it's all the victim's fault because she wore a short skirt and had a few drinks with the rapist, I reserve the right to hunt said author down and beat 'em about the head with their own ignorant dickheadedness.)

Gay relationships are only controversial in certain comics these days. Marvel? Controversial. Top Shelf? Not so much. Webcomics? Every webcomic seems to have a quote of at least 2 gay people. (Only slight hyperbole.)

Things like rape are one of the hardest things to write and do without making someone pissed at you. You have to reeeeeeally be aware of what rape victims go through, and avoid things like victim-blaming, fetishizing, and sensationalizing it. As SplicerParade said, if you portray it as the victim's fault because of how they dressed, or spoke to the rapist, you will get your ass handed to you. (Not saying that's what you did. I actually have no idea what you did in your comic, since I haven't read it.)

But even when you do the best job possible in writing this scene, you will still make people mad. Because every survivor deals with their attack differently. Watchmen has been criticized for portraying rape. So has Monster. And these are by really good writers.

(Is anyone else having the problem where pressing the button for italics is the same as hitting send?)

Splicer is right, you need to look at how it was portrayed/written. I haven't seen your comic but from a google search this came up:
http://forums.ronin-studios.com/showthread.php?p=71102
So from skimming over it, you have a female soldier who's disguised herself as a boy being raped? I'd say that is a little touchy, even more so if she's the only female character in your comic.

Have to admit that one of the many things that one of my Creative Writing and Script teachers told us in a class was "Don't do rape in fiction. It doesn't matter how well you think you can handle it, unless that you know the experience from a close perspective, you will just ending screwing it up...So it will be for the best to just avoid it...". And seeing a lot of fanfictions and webcomics (and a couple of Lifetime movies) that handle the matter VERY poorly, probably he is right to some extent.

In my personal opinion, rape is the ultimate form of violence (Yes, in some degrees even worst than murder) and can help but found it very disturbing when some writers (specially new ones) use it so lightly just for cheap drama (since, as TVtropes.org put it, "Rape is the new Dead Parents" ).

There is no way in hell to put a rape scene (even a rape mention) without hitting some people in the wrong way. No matter how well you handle the scene or how good writer you are, some people will not like it one bit, because the nature of the subject is very hard(to say it at least).

The harsh response maybe was unnecesary, but I found it understandable.

So, personally, I definitively will never put an actual rape scene. And I could include rape as a character backgroung only if I found it 100% necesary for the plot and Im at least sure of put it in the most respectful way.

About homosexual relationships, I don't think that it is a big issue in webcomics.

I think it's funny that people have no problem with murder in fiction, but they go crazy about rape. (erm, not ha-ha-funny.) It's fiction; you have free reign. I think that even the whole 'blame it on the victim implicitly by having her dressed in a short skirt' thing isn't as bad as some other commenters here have made it out to be- sure, it could come across as a cliche, BUT I always appreciate works that take a black-and-white moral issue and fuzz it up a bit. Like 'Lolita'. No one would ever, EVER say that forcing a minor into a sexual relationship is a morally ambiguous action, but through Nabokov's writing- the way he makes you see things through Humbert's perspective- gives readers at least some sort of internal debate. Or Deathnote, or Dexter, with killing. Anything that will make readers question themselves, or god forbid think, is an effort well-made, in my opinion.

Anyway, consider having a warning page telling readers there will be rape.


In my comic there's some uncomfortable violent stuff happening now, and I was worried my readers would spurn me, but they've been champs about it.

And DarkPascual, your writing teacher is not very smart. Just because other people mishandle a subject doesn't mean only rape victims can write about rape. Just like other bad things in life, you don't have to personally gone through it to fictionally tackle the subject. (And also, not all rape victims are good writers.)

I think that however you handle the scene you will always have someone offended by it. However I think if you just imply (is that how you spell it?) that it happened, it wouldn't offend me at least. I mean, one of my friends was raped, but I don't mind reading about it in stories or comics. Sure, it upsets me, but there's always parts of stories or comics that upset me, like violence. But they're real things that really happen and we can't hide from that. I might have sounded insensitive there, I don't know, but I don't mean to, that's just my opinion.

Kristen Gudsnuk
And DarkPascual, your writing teacher is not very smart. Just because other people mishandle a subject doesn't mean only rape victims can write about rape. Just like other bad things in life, you don't have to personally gone through it to fictionally tackle the subject. (And also, not all rape victims are good writers.)

Maybe you're right. But I have to admit that I see his point, and it convinced me that giving MY CURRENT writing skills, I shouldn't try to put actual rape scene.

The thing with the "Murder good, rape bad" in fiction is that, at the end of the day, you can pull justifications for a character killing somebody (Hey, he was Hitler's second coming-He tried to kill my mother-He eats hotdogs without mustard, well maybe not that last one), since there are some real life justifications where society could let go a person for killing other. However, there are no real life circumstance when you can justify rape.

However, I have to admit that a lot of people have issues against man-on-woman rape, but man-on-man rape is (almost)always played for laughs or some sort of karmic punishment to a bad guy (like in Vertigo's Preacher). And I can't remember hearing in fiction a story with serious treatment about woman-on-man (while I do remember hearing about a Nightwing story dealing with the subject) or woman-on-woman rape.

Dark Pascual
However, I have to admit that a lot of people have issues against man-on-woman rape, but man-on-man rape is (almost)always played for laughs or some sort of karmic punishment to a bad guy (like in Vertigo's Preacher). And I can't remember hearing in fiction a story with serious treatment about woman-on-man (while I do remember hearing about a Nightwing story dealing with the subject) or woman-on-woman rape.

Maybe people are more sensitive about the man-on-lady rape because it seems to propagate the 'men are strong, women are weak' gender stereotype. (I can't think of any time, though, that the male rape scenario has been used in a non-serious manner- although I haven't read 'Preacher'.)

I can think of an example of lady-on-lady rape: the film "Sympathy for Lady Vengeance". It was handled in a serious way.

and even lady-on-man rape: "Jailbait", an Ed Wood movie from the 60s. It was kinda funny- although I don't know if it was supposed to be.

(Ok, now I sound like the Encyclopedia of Rape Scenes... err...)

Kristen Gudsnuk
Maybe people are more sensitive about the man-on-lady rape because it seems to propagate the 'men are strong, women are weak' gender stereotype. (I can't think of any time, though, that the male rape scenario has been used in a non-serious manner-

More like Male/female rape happens at an alarming rate today, and it doesn't just affect the victim, it also the victims friends and family that were there for her going through the ordeal(even if she gets over it later). It's bound to induce some rage.

On another note, from lurking on yaoi forums from my fantard days, it's girls that usually have the dumbest/most insensitive shit to say about m/f rape next to guys that have actual rape fetishes. I guess the influence of the land of yaoi rape=insta-love and women are Adachi archetypes

Nothing should be off limits to be considered by an artist, you just have to consider if you are a skilled enough artist to pull it off.
I would always air on the side of caution since mishandled you could end up looking like the famous miscarriage bit from Ctr-alt-del.
(Hillariously funny while trying to be serious and moving.)

harkovast
Nothing should be off limits to be considered by an artist, you just have to consider if you are a skilled enough artist to pull it off.
I would always air on the side of caution since mishandled you could end up looking like the famous miscarriage bit from Ctr-alt-del.
(Hillariously funny while trying to be serious and moving.)

Well, B^Uckley was alredy getting fair amounts of bashing by then (much of which related with the fact that the guy seems to be a douche in the first place...), but you bring an interesting matter about handling themes and how they relate with the tone of the story.

When you have a setting full of gaming references, a guy who's even dummer than Homer Simpson, Peter Griffin and Patrick's inmbreed sons put together, sentient robots builded from X-Box and just a few splashes of honestly sweet moments (have to admit that Ethan's marriage proposal was a nice moment in the insanity that is CAD), throw a MAJOR DRAMA bomb like a miscarriage seems totally out of place.

So it's not only a matter of writting skills and purpose in the story, but also of the tone and setting of the story.

It's about not only writing well but story tone and sticking to the general nature of your comic. Rape is probably one of the gravest and most touchy subjects. It *can* be addressed if your comic has already set a precedent of dealing with topics on that level. It actually doesn't matter whether your comic is serious or comical provided it HAS set the precedent. Family Guy delves into many "touchy" subjects, but since it has always done so (or progressed to doing so), people expect it. While I'm sure many people object or get offended, they at least expect it and know the spirit in which such issues are being addressed. -- And as Kristen mentioned with her comic, she has already set the story up with a lot of tension and grim circumstances. We see it between father and daughter throughout, so when it escalates to physical violence, it is not a bolt from the blue. It is a higher level, but a logical one that the readers, considering that they have stayed with the story to this point, can't be too shocked or offended by.

Personally, I think rape is a bit overused in a lot of stories. It seems to be a stock option for explaining a character's rash actions or even just adding some insta-pathos.

I haven't read the scene that you're describing though, so I can't say if you accomplished what you set out to do. Most of the rape scenes I've read in comics, however, have been poorly rendered, clumsily written, and were about about as well choreographed as a 18-wheeler truck driving into the mouth of a live volcano.

Of course, I'm not against rape being used as a narrative device on principle. I agree with hark in saying that absolutely nothing should be off limits to an artist.

Naturally, such freedom of expression is a two way street. No matter what an artist does there's bound to be somebody out there who doesn't like it. When it comes to a rape scene there's almost certainly going to be someone who gets offended over the depiction and decides to vent their hostility openly.

This sort of thing comes with the territory.

harkovast
Nothing should be off limits to be considered by an artist, you just have to consider if you are a skilled enough artist to pull it off.

That's about the long and short of it as far as I'm concerned. You shouldn't shy away from covering "controversial" things simply because they're controversial. Don't we all want our comics to make people think or at least to get some kind of emotional reaction? You should only avoid things that you don't think you can portray appropriately, and even then I'd err on the side of at least trying to pull it off because otherwise you'll never get better at what you do.

Besides, the real life consequences of other violent crimes are far-reaching, deep and complex as well, we've just somehow gotten used to their shallow portrayal in fiction and it's not considered offensive anymore. I'm not saying that means we should make the same mistake with rape, but it's a bit strange that rape and pedophilia somehow are scrutinized more than torture, murder and genocide. All these things should be given weight in a serious story.

Dark Pascual, or you could do what Dominic Deagan did....have the chick get raped, but it turns out her attacker did it to save her life and she later falls in love with him...No I am not making this up! Seriously! That is what happens!

(Wow, there really is no limit to the utter crap you can find if you search the internet long enough!)

Hm. I'm always tempted to do controversial scenes, but I always chicken out in the end. :[

harkovast
Dark Pascual, or you could do what Dominic Deagan did....have the chick get raped, but it turns out her attacker did it to save her life and she later falls in love with him...No I am not making this up! Seriously! That is what happens!

(Wow, there really is no limit to the utter crap you can find if you search the internet long enough!)

I remember that...Talking about wallbangers. Not that Dominic Deegan was a masterpiece to begin with, but that was utterly stupid...

Now if you want poorly handled sensitive themes in bad webcomics, try to read Pastel Defender Heliotrope...I almost gave up webcomics after a few pages...

Kristen Gudsnuk
And DarkPascual, your writing teacher is not very smart. Just because other people mishandle a subject doesn't mean only rape victims can write about rape. Just like other bad things in life, you don't have to personally gone through it to fictionally tackle the subject. (And also, not all rape victims are good writers.)

I don't think it's so much that DarkPascual's teacher was saying "You can't do rape scenes," because, well, she can't stop anyone. She is saying "Unless you have some really good understanding and knowledge of it that isn't regurgitated from something you saw on TV, you WILL fuck it up." Which goes for ANY written subject, of course. Unless you really know what you're writing about, you will look like an idiot, and depending on the subject, an offensive idiot.

Kristen Gudsnuk
I think it's funny that people have no problem with murder in fiction, but they go crazy about rape. (erm, not ha-ha-funny.)

Probably because murder victims aren't around to see their ordeals portrayed so poorly all the time. Murder victims don't have PTSD. They won't read the story and experience their own murder a second time in their head.

I have a planned child rape scene in a sequel of MAG-ISA.

But at the most its probably gonna play out like this:

(*underage girl chained on the floor... her clothes still on... looking terrified*)

(*Perverted banker enters the room. He is salivating like a drunken dog. He takes off his coat and takes off his necktie... then laughs like a demon*)

(*black screen on the next page. Just sfx of girl screaming for dear life as the sick banker laughs. No visual representation. Just black page with dialog.*)

(*facial shot of girl on the ground. Her face is bruised and looks like she's been given a date rape drug. Then bankster calls up his policeman friend outside the room to help him rape the underage girl*)

(*Outside shot of door. As the banker and policeman do their dastardly deed*)

Mahlaste and Nervewire go all out. I censor little but I don't aim to titilate.

I can't really describe some of the stuff that's in them without spoiling some major plot points. But let's just say that every main character has been involved in some bad situations and will continue to be. Rape is heavily included but because it is why several characters exist and why they are nearly killed by people who know that fact.

I haven't witnessed rape first hand but I was pretty much put in the mindset of a rape victim when I was abused as a child. Say what you want but I was.
It STILL hurts too bad to talk about it without crying.
I've experienced it second hand, too. As well as heard other people talking about their first hand experiences.

Why would I do it to arouse people or provide cheap drama if it would hurt so many people I know?

I don't intentionally try to be controversial, in fact I don't really think my comic is controversial at all. Even though my latest comic has a Bull with a coat hanger trying to abort a Cow's unborn fetus. The Cow decides to go full term with the pregnancy so it can later have veal. But other than that....

I suppose nothings wrong with a little controversy. I was gonna have an implied rape in my comic (not really a scene because you don't actually witness it happening) but I was hesitant at first because I was afraid it'd cause a stir. Thinking about it now, it's very tame compared to some of the stuff I've see. It's not the actual event that I'm having trouble with, rather how the survivor reacts to it.

It's one of those things where it's right in my head and it fits in the story, but I don't want it to be bait for bad reviews! I suppose that's why most people keep their stuff pretty clean.

I think, though, as long as you KNOW the cliches/standard TV representations of rape, you can avoid them and possibly get a riveting scene.

Although the plight of rape victims is a sad one indeed, it wouldn't stop me (hypothetically) from pursuing an uncomfortable scene if it was necessary to what I was doing. I mean, sometimes rape as a plot point works really well. I'm thinking specifically of "The World According to Garp" by John Irving (the part about the Ellen James Society?).

kyupol
*facial shot of girl

megan_rose
Probably because murder victims aren't around to see their ordeals portrayed so poorly all the time. Murder victims don't have PTSD. They won't read the story and experience their own murder a second time in their head.

Yeah, but people who have witnessed murder/had a family member murdered would have a likewise painful reaction to such a scene.

The original idea I had for the six-page comic project was about a little girl who was constantly raped by her father. She became very depressed, and then eventually decided to sell her body. While the subject was tastefully done since the story never explicitly said she was assaulted and the rape was never shown, I felt it was a little too dark a subject matter considering that I usually do humor comics (dark humor, but still). Plus, the style I was going for (digital painting) wasn't working out for me, as I still need practice with Painter. In the end, I chose something with a "happier" ending for the book.

But, speaking of controversial scenes, in an upcoming Negligence, there is a panel where one of the characters says the "N" word. I wasn't sure if it should stay unedited like it will appear or if I should've black-barred the word. I asked several people because, even though the word is used out of context, I'm sure someone would get pissed off about it. In the end, I decided to keep it, but not before having a ton of warnings about it ahead of time, as I know someone will take it out of context.

Eh, I doubt that I'd ever have my characters go through something as horrible as rape/sexual abuse.

I think that there's a reason why controversial topics are controversial, so that they don't get trivialized by mainstream entertainment, so that no one will become so desensitized by them that they actively do the things that are controversial. Now there are things that are actually very silly to be controversial, but they are so that they don't offend certain groups.

I haven't read your comic, but I think the big problem was that your character was walking it off with minimum emotional effects. That makes it seem rather sloppy, and not at all realistic. Although, if you did have her just acting brave, but had her inner thoughts showing her turmoil, and could lead to self-destruction, or a self-realization, which in this case, self-destruction is the most likely ending.

For everyone who I might offend by this, I apologize in advance, I tend to analyze possible outcomes to plot choices, and this was the first time that this ever came to mind.

Like stated before, I think controversial scenes are fine if you can portray them in a tactiful and tasteful way. I think in some stories, controversial scenes are needed to get a point across or because that's the tone of the work. In my comic, I've got a couple of murders and an domestic abuse scene so far, and I haven't heard any hoopla about it o_o so I suppose I pulled them off really well.

I wonder if any of you have seen the film "Lust, Caution" directed by Ang Lee. That film is a perfect example of how you can show very controversial scenes (graphic rape and murder) and have it still be relative to and needed to explain the story.

More controversial scenes that could be possibly included in MAG-ISA and its sequels.

- School shootings, bombings, and other "terrorist attacks".

- Domestic violence.

- Scene in 18th century USA when slavery and killing of black people was ok.

- Brutal war crimes.

- Brutal bullying and general teenage angst.

- Racism on an intergalactic level.

- Totalitarianism. Maybe I'd borrow stuff from Orwell's 1984 and Huxley's Brave New World.

- Creating fictional religions and philosophies based on stuff that really exists.

- Stuff covered by alternative media like Alex Jones, Project Camelot, George Noory, etc.