Okay, well, a couple months ago, a young woman on dA gave me contructive critism, no big deal, just a couple helpful tips. Well, I gave her my own personal opinion on her critism (basically, she added lines to my characters to show to draw them right, but I thought the hips looked too big and I said so). She yelled at me, we got into a slight argument, and she was temporarily banned. Now she, and her possy, hate me.

Ever since then, I've always wondered if it's the right thing for me to question and defend my side when people give me constructive criticism. I'm not saying to being against it, since I personally find it helpful, but I do like to tell people that my characters are supposed to have big eyes or something.

So, as a question towards you guys who give and get CC, how do you feel about you or others questioning it?

(also, if this need to be moved somewhere else, please do so)

It so funny that one of the things that people who like to give out constructive criticism complain about the most is about people talking back to them and not taking their criticism well. lol!

The fact is that it's really easy to give good criticism. I can write pages of it without breaking a sweat. Creation tends to be somewhat harder. -_-

This is a general truth. Creators deserve a bit of respect when their creation is being examined.

A critic shouldn't really complain or be angry that their advice is badly taken. That's a bit hypocritical considering what they're doing in the first place: they're being peevish and whiny that someone was peevish and whiny over something they they themselves said. A good critic gives out their advice in the best way possible and lets the person do what they want with it, either heed it or ignore it.
Irritation is the privilege of the creator, not the critic.

If my concrit is questioned, I merely shrug - it's up to the creator to do what they want with my crit in the first place, so it doesn't really matter how they react. (Of course, if they start spitting insults and go crazy, I'll laugh at them, but that's another story).

I try not to question the concrit I get, though. If the person who gives it to me asks a question outright, I'll answer it, but otherwise, I'll just thank them for it.

Seeing as how I love to discuss/elaborate on my work... if I have a counterpoint on a critique, I'd usually like to spit it out for discussion. However, I wouldn't press if I notice the tone of the discussion degrading quickly into a war.

I don't mind wars over general subjects in a forum, but I wouldn't want it happening in the comments section of my own comics.

I honestly don't think online art should be taken that seriously. It's always seemed to me to be more of a hobby than an actual attempt to make anything noteworthy, or prove yourself on any level. Assuming you're not doing it to pass time, or for mild shits n' giggles, then CC would appy to you, and it should be taken. It doesn't mean you'll improve, always. Had someone tell me once my comic would look better in pencils. Well they did theirs in pencils, so they have experiance, but I know my pencil work is less than steller, so I just shrugged it off. By the end of the day you are the best judge of your own abilities. Try what you're told, but if it just doesn't seem like it's going to be realistic for you, there is no gun pionted at your head.

You just need to know which advice to heed, and which to shrug off. I was informed that my comic was racist for making fun of the way Chinese people talk, yet a group of Chinese kids read my comic and found that part hilarious (they were, however, offended by my accusation that they have no tits, but frankly I don't see how that's fair, they don't). It's all subjective. There will be people out there who think they know what's right for everybody. Ironically they're usually the people who have no real experiance drawing, writing, etc. You got an evaluation from a peer, and personally that's the type I usually consider.

Don't get me wrong, I considered all the advice and CC I got when I had a comic around. But sometimes you need to know which ones to take more literally than the others. Generally people say "take all the advice you can get, CC is there to help you", but honestly there are going to be a million people who will tell you to do a million different things. The last thing you want is your work to be some Frankenstein cobbled together from other people's ideas.

As much as I love constructive criticism, alot of it boils down to personal taste. The very thing someone criticizes might be something someone else praises. When I ask for criticism I'm usually looking for something I didn't notice I was doing, or an alternate way to do something that might be better.

When someone criticizes something that was an active choice on my part (like crayon backgrounds or something) I do kinda feel like I need to defend it. It's not a mistake I'm making. It's a decision I made. Maybe that decision was wrong, but I have reasons for making it.

Constructive criticism is really great and helpful, personally I don't see how I could improve without it. That being said I've had experiences like Priest Revan's but in my case I think it's more that I struggle with criticism-etiquette. That is to say I put my foot in my mouth or come off as rude. One guy I know drew a comic with me in it, only his version of me was stout, had a round face and a slightly indicated nose. In real life I'm lanky, have a narrow face and a large nose. I pointed this out and he got mad, called me a drunk and proceeded to not talk to me for a week. I'm such a nice guy.

patrickdevine
I'm such a nice guy.

Stay off the booze stouty! lol!

Basically it boils down to

Objective Criticism = Good

Subjective Criticism = Bad

It's easy to get defensive when someone tells you that a choice you made consciously is bad, but sometimes it just is, no matter what your reasons are.

The worst thing though, is fans who just slobber and tell you you're great all the time. Don't listen to those people.

Also what Ozone said about criticism being easy is utter bullshit. Critics deserve a lot more respect than they currently get, because they help you weed out the shit. Just because they don't draw, doesn't mean that they don't know what they're talking about. Assuming so is just ignorant.

Custard Trout
Also what Ozone said about criticism being easy is utter bullshit. Critics deserve a lot more respect than they currently get, because they help you weed out the shit. Just because they don't draw, doesn't mean that they don't know what they're talking about. Assuming so is just ignorant.

I'm not assuming that. I know what I'm talking about. As I said: I can write pages of GOOD criticism without breaking a sweat. It's PISS EASY. ;)
And not just because of all my years of accademic study in art either, although I'm sure that helps.

Utter bullshit? lol! And good critics, the best ones, know very well how to create.

Of course they know how, they'd be shitty critics otherwise. But 'can' and 'do' are completely different things.

Good criticism is not easy, either you're lying (which, with you, I really don't believe) or you aren't as good as you think you are. How do you know the criticism you say you can write is good?

Good criticism looks at both the good and the bad. Some choose to just point out every bad thing about a comic. Which is fine if they are critiquing me. But its when someone does it to others which I find abusive.

But as to how you should respond I think the artist... with all work it should stand for itself whether it be good or bad critiques. the same goes for criticism. It should be held harmless. put out there to be taken or not just as the art that is being criticized.

Wow, everyone's so confident.

I 2nd-guess my stuff a lot more than I used to. I think the more you grow, the more you see your own insufficiency. Reader comments definitely shape my comics, more than they realize. There's the immediate effects of me editing a page's art as soon as someone points something out. There's also the long-term effects of someone's plot comment affecting a chapter 100 pages into the future.

mlai
Wow, everyone's so confident.

I 2nd-guess my stuff a lot more than I used to. I think the more you grow, the more you see your own insufficiency. Reader comments definitely shape my comics, more than they realize. There's the immediate effects of me editing a page's art as soon as someone points something out. There's also the long-term effects of someone's plot comment affecting a chapter 100 pages into the future.

I'm constantly second guessing myself in all actuality. This is why I seek out constructive criticism, I'm always thinking that I'm missing some detail or I didn't think of something. If I did, I'm sure that somebody would point it out to me.

Custard Trout
Good criticism is not easy, either you're lying (which, with you, I really don't believe) or you aren't as good as you think you are. How do you know the criticism you say you can write is good?

When you study art at uni and art collage for as long as I did, you have to write it. Come on Custard, no need to mythologise the process, criticism is really straight forward writing. Amazingly so. I can speak from experience when I say that writing the crap you might see on an ad is harder than criticism, let alone trying to do fiction. There's nothing amazing, clever or special in doing it, and there's no such thing as "objective" criticism.

An "objective" critic is a liar, if he calls himself that. All you can do is try and rein in the bias and stick to analysing formal aspects and technique, that's not objective but at least it looks that way.

Being easy doesn't lessen the worth of criticism, but it should inform you of the relative values of the objects under discussion here: The creative product VS the criticism relating to it. The later being essentially a parasitical sub-form.

The hard thing about criticism is having to view something distasteful, uninteresting, or alien to you and then struggle to write some kind of evaluation of it that makes sense and has some point. And even that gets easier the more you do it.

patrickdevine
I'm constantly second guessing myself in all actuality. This is why I seek out constructive criticism, I'm always thinking that I'm missing some detail or I didn't think of something. If I did, I'm sure that somebody would point it out to me.

Same here... only I rarely ever get any --- if any at all! Hell, I'm lucky if I even get three to four comments per page anymore... :(

Lucky 7's, aww I will go look at your comment to make you feel better!

You are not forced to listen to someones opinion when they are critical of your work.
You have every right to tell them they are wrong, and if they get offended, then they are a moron and their opinion was probably stupid anyway.

Priest_Revan
Okay, well, a couple months ago, a young woman on dA gave me contructive critism, no big deal, just a couple helpful tips. Well, I gave her my own personal opinion on her critism (basically, she added lines to my characters to show to draw them right, but I thought the hips looked too big and I said so). She yelled at me, we got into a slight argument, and she was temporarily banned. Now she, and her possy, hate me.

Ever since then, I've always wondered if it's the right thing for me to question and defend my side when people give me constructive criticism. I'm not saying to being against it, since I personally find it helpful, but I do like to tell people that my characters are supposed to have big eyes or something.

So, as a question towards you guys who give and get CC, how do you feel about you or others questioning it?

(also, if this need to be moved somewhere else, please do so)

She's a nutjob. Period.

If you can criticize others, you should be able to accept criticism. lol

You can question critique. I try not to.
I used to respond with a bunch of superfluous words, but whether or not you accept the critique in particular is up to you, so I try to generally say "great, I'll look into that" or some response appropriate to what they said, even if I don't like it.
They'd just have to say something tremendously dumb (or subjective, yeah) for me to respond in critique of their critique, heh.

(Crit is nice, though. Always a challenge when you get complacent. I'm constantly self-criting, but then others come along thinking things I'd never think. It's wonderful.)

Yeah I have had some run-ins with this stuff before lol. I was critting a friend of mine, and I was giving him a hard time (hes someone that I know from another board) and someone else got up in their defense. What to do in that case? I simply said Im only giving a hard time because I want to see it get better.

when it comes to giving crits I hold back alot. In an arena like this (and by this i mean webcomics) everyone is trying to get popularity and more pageviews. Telling people what you honestly think of their comic will often bruise egos and make you enemies, which is sad because everyone should be able to take it.

when it come to taking crits....I dont feel i get enough lol. I mean, on other art boards I visit I do, and its very helpful(!!!) but on here it seems that people carry the attitude "its better than what i do so I dont deserve to crit it" which is a load of shit.

I used to get pretty nasty when I critiqued comics, this was before i had my own comic and took most webcomics very seriously(lol) My underlying intention was to help them improve, but eventually this got boring and i'd mix in subtle insults for 'interesting' results.

I got reactions of course. Hatred and dumb excuses(usually from young girls drawing choppy manga style) and responses of thanks and dismissal, but the most annoying one of all is being ignored.

So if you get a nasty critique, ignore them-continue on like you never saw it and respond to other, nicer crits. That's the worst thing you can do to someone who wants a reaction, pretend they're not even worth one.

Or y'know, play the game and yell at them and show you were affected by their words. Give them even more power over you. :)

A while back I made a sprite animation of a ninja running and posted it here. Then one DD member who used to frequent here (and who was also regarded as one of the few actual creators of their own sprites) gave me some feedback. It was well intentioned, but I agreed with none of it. Then I looked at his avatar, which was a guy running. Its timing was way off, and the guy's legs were actually two different lengths! Plus, the secondary motion in the guy's hair was absurd. I laughed so hard that root beer came out of my nose.

But I didn't say a thing! I find that it's always best to avoid bruising egos, even if the critic is off base.

I was re-skimming this thread...

lefarce
I was informed that my comic was racist for making fun of the way Chinese people talk, yet a group of Chinese kids read my comic and found that part hilarious (they were, however, offended by my accusation that they have no tits, but frankly I don't see how that's fair, they don't).

Well that last part is actually true mlai, but i suppose that doesn't make it better

I think, when replying to comments and feedback, you should follow the same rules of etiquette you'd expect in a forum.

1. If someone is simply being insulting, report them.
2. If someone criticises your work without giving a reason, ask them to elaborate.
3. If someone takes the trouble to explain why they don't like something, then thank them. Thank them especially nicely if they offer suggestions on how to improve it (that's what real "constructive" criticism is!)
4. If you don't agree with a criticism (constructive or otherwise!), by all means say so but be polite. Explain why you did it the way you did, but try not to sound as if you are attacking their point of view. They're entitled to it.
5. If you can see the validity of a criticism, acknowledge it and bear it in mind for the future.
6. Think very hard before rejecting a criticism outright. Sometimes you can't see the validity of it until quite a long time after it's stopped stinging!
7. If the "critic" rejects your response and tries to insist that their point of view is is the only one that's right, ignore them. You have no obligation to be drawn into a protracted argument over things which, ultimately, are only differences of opinion.
8. In all cases, choose your words carefully and try to be extra polite. The tone of a response can be easily misunderstood on the net and even adding smilies can sometimes make a response look facetious rather than humourous.

DAJB
2. If someone criticises your work without giving a reason, ask them to elaborate.

Ha, one time someone gave me a "1" with no explanation. When I made a point of that ( well sort of, I just went "a 1 with no reason? jeez." ) they said "I'll let you figure out what's wrong with this image". This kind of irritated me so we both got into a fight, all he said in response was that I couldn't take criticism.

Even worse though after that little spout, suddenly many people on my page said I couldn't take criticism. But what's stupid is that's what I was ASKING for. I wanted constructive critisicm instead of just a 1 and a dumb comment. Maybe I did get too snippy, I don't know...but anyone can leave a 1 and go "I'll let YOU figure it out", even on the most professional comics.

I don't even bother caring about ratings with no reasoning anymore, if anything I just leave it or report it. But if anyone makes a comment like that again I'm just reporting it too. =/

SarahN

DAJB
2. If someone criticises your work without giving a reason, ask them to elaborate.

Ha, one time someone gave me a "1" with no explanation. When I made a point of that ( well sort of, I just went "a 1 with no reason? jeez." ) they said "I'll let you figure out what's wrong with this image". This kind of irritated me so we both got into a fight, all he said in response was that I couldn't take criticism.

Even worse though after that little spout, suddenly many people on my page said I couldn't take criticism. But what's stupid is that's what I was ASKING for. I wanted constructive critisicm instead of just a 1 and a dumb comment. Maybe I did get too snippy, I don't know...but anyone can leave a 1 and go "I'll let YOU figure it out", even on the most professional comics.

I don't even bother caring about ratings with no reasoning anymore, if anything I just leave it or report it. But if anyone makes a comment like that again I'm just reporting it too. =/

Yup - negative comments (or a lack of) do tend to loop back to Point 1 or Point 7!

The important thing is not to get dragged into a protracted exchange - especially in public! The longer a disagreement goes on, the more heated it will get; and the more heated your responses get, the more you'll seem to be in the wrong (even if you're in the right!)

i hate how tip toe people can get about this kind of thing, i've done it too though. but just becuase someone's giving constructive crit, doesnt mean you have to bow to them and eat whatever shit they're saying like it's a nice fat cut of steak. just becuase someone puts "i'm just trying to help-" in front of their "advice", doesnt automatically make them right about anything, however your art is your baby and you have ALL THE DAMN RIGHT in the world to defend it if you feel you need to.

i think if someone altered my drawings to make a point and ESPECIALLY if i thought it was actually worse, i'd say something about it. tell her that. if she's going to put her dirty fingers on someone else's art, she better be prepared for whatever "constructive critisism" she gets in return. then to sick her friends on you?...it doesnt sound at all to me like she's anything but petty. forget her, from what it sounds on YOUR side anyways, she's just looking for something to higher her self esteem and she knocked on the wrong door to get it.