I'm not talking about Jane Austin, I'm talking about the rampant elitism that plagues Drunk Duck. Seriously, what is wrong with you people?

There are people who won't read a comic if it's drawn in a style that is even vaguely approaching manga, people who won't read a comic if it isn't a manga, lots of people who won't read sprite comics, even if the sprites are 100% custom made, people who consider anything not in full colour to be lazy and inferior...and they're ALL missing out on some really good comics!

I mean, honestly, if effort has been put into a comic, the style shouldn't matter! Though I like to draw manga myself, that doesn't mean that I can't appreciate how gorgeous the hyper-realistic artwork is in something like 'Astonishing X-men' or the simple wonder of 'Charlie Brown', or chuckle at a bit of '8-bit theatre'. But I come here and there are people claiming that a comic drawn in manga style, however good the plot and characters may be, will be completely unreadable to them because the style will ruin their enjoyment.
I mean, honestly, what is up with that.
"AAAH! PEOPLE WITH SLIGHTLY LARGER THAN AVERAGE EYES AND STYLISED SPIKY HAIR! MY WORLD IS FALLING APART NOOOESSSSS!!!!"
And before you think I'm biased against you guys, the ones who only read manga are just as bad!
"WAAH! REALISTIC ANATOMY AND THE WHOLE WORLD ISN'T PRETTY AND NO GIANT SWEATDROPS AND IT READS FORWARDS! HOSHIKUNAI----!"
It's even stupider because most manga-haters will actually read stuff drawn in disney cartoon style, where people have big eyes, and are actually avoiding just certain ways of drawing eyes as a crazy blanket policy, while the guys who only read manga can't bear to read anything that doesn't have sparkly bishounen left, right and centre!

You're ALL stupid! Why not try being a little more broad minded? Just for ONE DAY I'd like you to try a comic or two from a genre or in a style you normally wouldn't go for. You never know, you might just learn a thing or two, or even become a better person because of it. Of course, the more likely outcome is that you'll either find some amazingly good or really crappy comics, but still, life is too short to go around avoiding certain kids of comics just because of a superficial thing like drawing style. You wouldn't go up to a Monet painting and go 'UGH! The art is good, but the fact that it's IMPRESSIONIST is ruining my enjoyment! I simply can't look at this painting even though it's really good, because I don't like impressionism'....would you?

The only type of comic I flat-out refuse to read are the non-japanese ones that are written from right to left. The english language was not meant to be read like that, and therefore the page will ALWAYS come across as clunky.

I avoid comics that are completely derivative in style. From what I've seen people who draw manga tend to draw rigidly formatted and fascistically stylized stuff. I prefer stuff with a little more individuality to it. I could read something in a quasi-manga style or really I guess I would read a comic with excellent writing that was full-blown manga, but it's not the art style that turns me off, actually, it's the knowledge that the person doing the comic actually reads manga. I used to like anime before it started to get really popular in the States, because most of the anime you saw back then was that ridiculously violent and filthy adult stuff like Akira, but now practically all of the stuff you see is this teeny-bopper stuff which I have no stomach for.

In conclusion, yes, I'm completely prejudiced against manga, but not because the look bothers me, I'm prejudiced against the authors.

As for sprite comics, I haven't seen any yet that have completely custom sprites, but if I run across one I promise I'll give it a once-over.

thegreatjoebivins
As for sprite comics, I haven't seen any yet that have completely custom sprites, but if I run across one I promise I'll give it a once-over.

http://www.drunkduck.com/EVERYTHING_MUST_DIE_SPRITE_COMIC/

People at Drunk Duck aren't especially elitist. I've seen a lot of comic sites much more elitist than Drunk Duck!
It's just that comic creators will always have pretty strong opinions about what kinds of work they like, wherever they are, that's how artists are.

I like any comic if it appeals to me, but I'm most drawn to comics that aren't of a mainstream comic style... Stuff like Earthbound, Gnoph, Lola, Two Moons, Dreams in Synergy, things like that; probably because I don't see myself in a mainstream style. But as I said, any style can appeal and I enjoy many manga influenced comics, "penny arcade" clones, newspaper strip style, cut and paste comics, superhero, even sprites on occasion!
The style I'm most stay away from generally though is sprites, mostly because the art style is far too uniform, and at times the stories are as well.

We all have our preferences, and that's fine, there are far too many comics on Drunk Duck now for us to see them all. If we miss out on some good work in the process of vetting what to direct our attention towards, then so be it, there's only so much time you can spend reading web-comics. ;)

Strong prejudice can be quite annoying though!

Darth Mongoose
You're ALL stupid! Why not try being a little more broad minded?

If only we had an eyebrow-raising smilie... or am I the only one who noticed this? :)


Anyway, it's the internet. It's easier to be blunt and appear closed-minded because it doesn't come back around to you. The computer screen is a magic shield of invulnerability. :)

That, and I think that sometimes people just get tired of seeing poorly executed comics... I'm all for letting people post whatever they want on the internet, but even I make snap judgments if something looks unappealing at first sight and I don't want to put in the time/energy/thought to make more of it.

Just remember that the dissenters are almost always just the vocal minority - if people don't have problems with something, they don't say anything. The only people who make an issue of it or often voice any opinion at all are the ones who don't like it... so if there are 20 people on DD that refuse to read any sprite comic, there are 200 or more who are happy to. :)

It's all a matter of taste and opinion.
It's just like going to a comic shop. You browse through a few comics that might catch your eye.

As for me, I don't particularly care for sprite comics. Sprites are computerized pixels that are used in games and applications, not comics. But that's just me. Of course, other people might have a different opinion. There are certain traditional artstyles I like and some that I don't. Comics are for entertaining the readers. If the reader isn't being entertained, they will move on to another.

DM, you win my everything. Marry me? :D? We could breed our comics and REALLY tick people off.

Knuckes - it's not like going to a comic shop, actually. The comics here are free and their creators are sitting RIGHT HERE reading peoples' reactions to them. In a comic shop, you would not glance over at someone reading a manga and make disparging remarks at them just because you didn't approve of the comic they were reading. Or at least, I hope you wouldn't.

I don't get the hoopla about sprite comics, myself. Personally, I think webcomics are VERY different than print comics - which is part of why I love them so much. They're more accessible for people to create and read, and it's easier for the creator to have complete control over the content of their work without worrying about the approval of a publisher and a distributor and, oh yeah, people actually paying cash monies so the creator doesn't LOOSE money in the process of putting their work out there. Publishing one's comic on the intarweb like this gives one more leeway to play with layout, medium, and genre. Creators can also get a really unique sense of a sort of "global community" through websites like this and other webcomics collectives, too, which is just cool.

The accessibility, of course, means that there are a lot of webcomics that you won't personally like - but I think complaining vocally about that is pointless, since the reason those comics are there is usually EXACTLY THE SAME REASON THAT THE COMICS YOU LIKE ARE THERE.

In conclusion: Webcomics are an amazing thing, sprite comics and all. Suck it up and be appreciative that it's NOT like print comics at all.

skoolmunkee

Darth Mongoose
You're ALL stupid! Why not try being a little more broad minded?

If only we had an eyebrow-raising smilie... or am I the only one who noticed this? :)

The irony is not lost.

Maybe he should be a little more open-minded himself. Maybe we just don't like those comics. Is it a crime? I mean is it that bad if someone else whom you don't even know nor care about won't read your comic because it's ____?

*shrug* artists can't expect to please everyone.

Knuckles
*shrug* artists can't expect to please everyone.

And readers shouldn't, either. Which is why we should keep on reading what we want to read and not what people like our friend Mr. Mongoose here tell us to read.

It's a bit like the "Classics of English Literature" dilemma (making a more literal connection to this topic's title): Sure, I don't doubt that Pride and Prejudice had a lot of effort put into its creation. But does that mean I have to read it? Does that make it more worthwhile than Dave Barry Is From Mars And Venus? I mean, I'm all for trying new things, but developing an opinion on a book or a TV show or a webcomic is just as important as trying it in the first place.

Like my stance on music, I read anything. If I like what I read, I keep reading. If I don't, I stop reading and never visit that comic.

Simple as that.

Someone just got fed a spoonfull of owned I think.

Approaching a new genre or particular comic with an open mind is important, to an extent. One of the problems with our culture is that we're so used to just dismissing something, when we may be missing something good by dismissing it. And time is money. Unless you have some comics to recommend, I'm not going to sit here browsing through search-lists on DD looking for new comics when I already have too many favorited comics to catch up on.

I don't really like the manga style myself (outside of Japanese professionals that is) because it represents a close-mindedness in itself. Usually the person who draws a manga styled comic is going with the crowd. Unless it's a non-animation house style with some manga influences but a lot of individual creativity. However at the same time my art teacher would say that creating a style already is stupid. We're too young to have our own styles, and instead should be drawing from life. The object dictates the drawing, not the other way around, he would say. And I think that's wise. However people don't want to do that because time is money and waiting to become a great artist by drawing from life wastes time they could be doing comics.

It's the individual's choice in the end, that's all I can say. Opinion is important, but if it's your opinion that people who are not open minded about a wide range of comics are stupid, we don't have to believe you. If you constructed your argument really well and cited examples and all that jazz then there would probably be a larger inclination to take your words to heart, but who wants to write an essay for their forum post? (Oh look, I just did...needs an intro paragraph though.)

In conclusion, that's all I have to say.

skoolmunkee
That, and I think that sometimes people just get tired of seeing poorly executed comics... I'm all for letting people post whatever they want on the internet, but even I make snap judgments if something looks unappealing at first sight and I don't want to put in the time/energy/thought to make more of it.

I agree, and I think those snap judgements have to happen. There are SO MANY comics on the internet. I can't click on a random link from DD's front page and read the entire comic just to be open-minded. If you can tell it's not your cup of tea, you can stop reading. That's the only way you can get on with finding actual good comics.

Darth Mongoose is right in that we shouldn't be able to tell the quality of a comic based on the style it's done in. The value of of a comic goes beyond its manga or sprite or black-and-white surface... However, if I'm reading a manga webcomic and suddenly it's filled with characters named "Hanako" and "Yoruki" and one of them has a curse and there's a medallion that makes somebody transform into a demon, you better believe I'm closing that browser window. I've got too little time in my day to waste on comics made by people who can't think beyond Inuyasha.

And like Knuckles said, it's all about your personal taste. And it IS like browsing a comic store, except in this case the comics cost you time, not money. The comics that can make themselves stand out and not look like "typical manga" or a "Marvel lookalike" will always get the most attention. It's how trends and styles change.

To me, it is not only the art that is important. Of course, some effort should go into it to make it easy (as much as possible) on the eyes and to keep with the mood the creator wants for it... but the one thing to truly win me over is the writing- the characters being believable, the dialogue interesting and attractive.

And a plot somewhere in there doesn't hurt, either ;) I think if the story is winning, the art style is secondary.

"give everything a chance" is the rule I go by in my head, but it works out more like "give everything a chance that isnt a poorly made sprite comic or non japanese manga styled comic origionally made in the english language but is read backwards anyway"

Both are things that have been talked about before. Artistic style rarley deters me from reading something.

I really HATE the style arguement. I've been through this, several times and very heatedly i might add with many people, including my design teachers in college.

Style is really nothing more than a collection of flaws and preferences in terms of a rendering solution to a given artistic problem. People compensate for things they can't draw well, and tend to focus on and collect little flourishes they like and can reproduce. An individual 'style' is meerly a collection of these things. Some people have a more attractive collection than others to other people who have similar tastes.

Everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE that draws for any length of time has a style. Its like a finger print, and its individual to each artist. After a certain amount of exposure to an artists work, you begin to see it, and can recognise those little touches. Even within the purportedly generic 'manga' style, each artists brings to the table their own flaws, strengths, and preferences, which puts their own spin on every single picture they draw. I really HATE when people say that 'manga' is generic, because its not. The only limits are the ones placed on it by ones own mind. Why? because its a still just a comic. Just like any other. Its a sequential art story. Its as limited or broad as any other comic form. Its got its own conventions, yes, but so does any language or culture that births an artform. North american comics has a language, as does the japanese version, as do the european version, as do I'm sure korean and chinese, and just about anywhere else that has their own cultures and storytelling preferences.

I agree that when one is learning to draw that one should not focus on style, but rather technique of drawing from life. Learning to draw whats there and not what you think you see without worrying about anything other than learning fundamentals such as proportions, lighting, shadow, shading, perspective, etc. HOWEVER, that being said, I think its perfectly fine to sample existing styles of artwork as a part of that. There are often very handy tips and tricks that can be gleaned from some places that aren't to be found standing in front of a fat nude woman with a huge board of newsprint and a stick of charcoal. And yes, thats the reality of life drawing folks. :P Eventually a 'style' will emerge on its own as more experience is garnered. But it will always be flavored with the personal likes and dislikes of the artist.

Now onto the manga argument specifically. I thing the vast majority of the objections is simply due to over exposure to the same 'kinds' of manga and poorly reproduced manga with bad art and poor writing which is hardly representative of the entire bredth of manga as a whole. That would include original works from north american artists. A lot of what is online is by and large derivative works of whatever happens to be popular at the time. This isn't a bad thing in and of itself, but generally speaking its looking at a grade nine student's sketchbook. Its generally a spur of the moment, poorly thought out, hardly planned, and just as poorly executed. But you know what? I've seen just as poorly done superhero/garfield/farside/ninja turtle rip offs 'in my day' as I have seen with anime. Its not a unique phenominon and the only reason its getting so much press is because its the flavor of the decade.

I would consider what I do 'manga', although I have been drawing it for about 14 years now, and I started far before the 'anime craze' hit. I remember having to forge connections with underground BBSes(you know, before the internet), secretive anime clubs, and make some nefarious deals with import stores down in chinatown. Back them people barely knew that Robotech and Astroboy was anime. :P God I feel old. Regardless, while you might look at my stuff and go "OMG MANGA the DEBIL!" and swear that I have no 'style of my own', I'd have beat you with an iron club full of rusty nails and covered in stinging nettles and then throw acid on you. Its like saying that all white people look the same, all black people look the same or all asian people look the same. Its totally ignorant and totally wrong. I don't care if you hate manga or love it, but to claim it all looks the same is meerly ignorance of the artform. ( and art in general as far as I'm concerned.) An artist can appreciate ANY other style, even if they don't like it, as long as its well done. Admittedly I'm a huge manga/anime fan, but I think that makes me even MORE decerning than others might be. I'm very very very particular about what mangas I will follow for this reason. They have to be well done, period. To have a beef against badly done manga in general is fine. Even I, as a hardcore fan, have a huge beef with it. But to be unappreciative of the effort, skill, and talent it takes to pull it off well even if its not your bag of tea? Thats just wrong.

Personally, I tend to look at subject matter when I'm selecting my reading material. If its a story about something I already like, chances are, I'll check it out, even if the art isn't my flavor. Even if its something fairly stereotyical, like vampires, werewolves, zombies, demons, half demons, cat people, dragons, people with powers (that aren't heroes), fantasy/modern/future mixes, etc, etc, I'll still give it a look. If story is there, and the art doesn't make me want to gouge my eyes out, I might stick around.

But if there is one thing I've learned as an artist is that there is _NO_ accounting for taste. As the saying goes, opinions are like arseholes, everone has one. And this is especially true when it comes to art, of any flavor, be it music, writing, visual arts, motion pictures, or theatre. Everyone has that little thing that tickles their fancy in some way or that turns them off completely. If that happens to be art style, then yer generally SOL unless you've got something else in there that tickles them more than the art style pisses them off. There are always going to be people who like what you are doing and people who hate what you are doing. And no matter how much you piss and moan ( and believe me, I have .) If your work happens to go against the grain du jour, then you probably won't see a lot of love. I find this tends to come in two flavors, the 'fans' or the 'peers'. You can be WILDLY popular with the fans and get no love from your peers, or you can get tons of love from your peers and only a fraction of the fandom you might expect from such 'critical acclaim'. And then you can lounge somewhere in the middle, obscure to both parties. A few people know you, a few fans know you, and there you sit.

No, I'm not bitter or anything.

On and on the "orignal" point? Nothing is original. NOTHING. There is really only novelty in the combinations and treatments of those cliches that just happens to fall into the right place at the right time. No matter how original you might think you are being, people will find things that resemble your work to compare you to. Even if it has NOTHING to do with it. And just because you have an unusual art style or unusual story, doesn't mean that people will flock to your comic. I dare say that many of the 'unusual' comics lounge in obscurity for quite some time until a peer reviewer comes along to point them out. This is because a good deal of the 'fans' want something they can read, read easily, understand easily, and not have to think about too much. Get too weird, obscure or unsettling and you lose em.

Great argument ShadowsMyst!
...but you're still just a manga noob :P
JOKING, I am joking! There is no way I would seriously say that after reading and agreeing with your brilliant argument as well as knowing your great art. :)
Not that I would ever say it anyway of course.
You've got a good argument there, although I will say that style is more than a bunch of flaws. People will deliberately create them in order to stand out or be iconic. They'll even follow, ape, and adapt the styles of others. Style can be a good shortcut to "mastery' of your field, people can almost create a simplified visual language with it. It's one of the reasons many younger artists seem so good so quickly... While such conventions actually a handicap when applied to broader artistic endeavour, they are excellent for comics!

It could conceivably be said that Manga, in certain instances, fills that role for some people. But that doesn't bother me because I have no prejudice against it.

Even though I do my comics in a more traditional medium, I haven't developed an elitist attitude toward sprite comics. My main problem with them is the inherent limitations that come with them. In such a flexible media, we can bend, break, or pay no mind to the traditional rules. The rules that once bound syndicated comics now have no power, because you can really do whatever your imagination allows. But with sprites, you're truly limiting yourself, at least artistically; but if you have something that you want the world to hear, and sprites are the only way of expressing yourself artistically, then by all means, forge ahead.

My two cents. :D

Ian Jay
And readers shouldn't, either. Which is why we should keep on reading what we want to read and not what people like our friend Mr. Mongoose here tell us to read.

Ian Jay, sir, I am getting you your own cheerleading squad.

Look, if a comic is badly written yet has fantastic art I won't read it, but I will save a couple of pages that I like for art reference.
If it is badly drawn or lazily drawn, yet funny, I will read it. (Thinkin' Lincoln)
I do read manga-esque comics (Flipside).
However, if they are soppy, long-drawn out tales of woe and misery, chances are I will not.

SAM&FUZZY!

(you sounded like you were mad when you made this topic. Calling everyone stupid and stuff.)
Here is the thing Darth Mongoose,
It's nice and ideal to give everyone a chance... read every webcomic out there from start to finish...but there is a pretty strong factor that goes into this and that is time. I don't have all the time in the world to read every single webcomic out there. I would fail school and not be able to draw anymore if that were the case.

That is why people look into genres and perfered styles, in an attept to find the comic they love and save some time looking for it.

It's not so much style that attracts me to reading a comic. It's readablity. If the lettering, pictures, layout is unreadable I go somewhere else. And story too.

ShadowsMyst
generally speaking its looking at a grade nine student's sketchbook. Its generally a spur of the moment, poorly thought out, hardly planned, and just as poorly executed.

*Just happens to be a ninth grader with a sketchbook*
Alas, all my self-esteem has been destroyed...

Frankly, what seems to upset Darth Mongoose is not the people who won't read a particular style of comic but people who are vocal about it. Otherwise how would he know?
Some people like a certain style, some people don't, and traditionally those who don't are more vocal about it. It would be nice if everyone was open-minded, but comics, and especially webcomics, are read by people with a wide variety of tastes, and naturally most people think that what they like is "better" than what they don't like. Thus, the percieved "elitism". Nobody thinks "what I like is crap".
Nasty criticism and bashing is one of the harsh realities of being published, and the Internet has offered an awful lot of people the chance of being published, therefore exposed to bashing. And it seems some people are not prepared. Despite the effort one puts into his or her work, some people will think it is crap, usually based on first impressions and personal tastes. It hurts to recieve bad comments when you have put much effort into something, but comics are an immediate medium: despite the effort you put into creating it, the viewer makes no effort into reading it. The reader makes judgements based on individual taste, because that is the only parameter the reader has, and if a comic is not to his/her liking, it will likely be ignored or bashed.
Though the argument for an "open mind" is quite valid, you simply can't dictate other people's tastes. Thank God.

I don't read any comics really because I have little time to. But from ones I have read, I like most styles. Although I can find the Japenese style to be a little samey. Otherwise it's all good. I really enjoy original styles, but if the story is no good, the style does not matter.

I don't think I'm biased against sprite comics,but it seems like many of them are just hard to look at because the figures are small, grainy, and its just jarring on my eyes. The ones where there's a lot of effort to clean up don't have this, though.

I'm in no position to be arrogant about my art, since I don't draw, I render. Some renders look particularly attractive, but in the end, its all the software doing the work.

Though I do heart radiocity, though for me, the writing (or more like the snark) is where its at.

Manga -- hmm tough call there. There's so *much* of it, and as the phrase goes, 90% of everything is crap.

ShadowsMyst
Regardless, while you might look at my stuff and go "OMG MANGA the DEBIL!" and swear that I have no 'style of my own', I'd have beat you with an iron club full of rusty nails and covered in stinging nettles and then throw acid on you. Its like saying that all white people look the same, all black people look the same or all asian people look the same. Its totally ignorant and totally wrong. I don't care if you hate manga or love it, but to claim it all looks the same is meerly ignorance of the artform. ( and art in general as far as I'm concerned.)

Hehe. I like your explanation on every races looking the same. X) Yeah, apparently, people who says all mangas look alike hasn't explored far enough than the commercialized ones in the market. Heck, I would advise anyone to explore manhwa(Korean manga) or manhua(Chinese manga) and see the difference.

I read anything i find appealing. o_0
Usually the artwork itself catches my eye. If not the artwork, the dialogue, pace, and story. Usually i go for things that, when using humor, ARE really humorous. I don't mean crude, mindless humor, either. Actual, REAL laugh out loud funny humor. to me, at least).
What i wont read: Comics that are so messy it makes it hard to read. It just seeps laziness and lack of skill, to me.

I'm sorry that I'm the best, but let me quote a great songsman from our generation:

its not bragging, motherfucker, if you're backing up

You see there? I'm not going to apologize for being the best.