The Midge-

Very well said. There is 'constructive criticism' and 'bombardment of nastiness'. Two different things. I think the problem is that the internet is an open, global forum, which means that an artist and his/her precious creation is open to the slings and arrows of anyone who comes along. I suppose we all need to steel ourselves for those moments when folks decide to be 'blunt' or just plain stupid 'cruel'.

I don't know many artists out there at any level who are not very effected by criticism. Well put, or nastily given, criticism just stings. Incredibly useful if well put, but it still hurts. I recently had a very talented artist join my forum - right after I launched my new webcomic- and ask if she could give a 'wee' critique. At which point she launched into a 15 page paragraph on every single minute detail of my page which was 'incorrectly' done complete with a 'repaired' version. Ouch. I was already feeling INCREDIBLY insecure about my new webcomic and wasn't quite ready for such and onslaught. It took a while to get over that one, and that was even done professionally with the best intentions.

A different story all together are the dopes around DD that love to flame and start up trouble, as well as the operators of sites popping up all over chanting: "your webcomic sucks' which are all really immature diatribes filled with poor grammar and obsenities which betray the stupidity of their authors, and a testament to the number of people out there in the ether who love to rip into people who are more creative than they are, but have nothing useful to say. Just a 'look at me and how MEAN I can be." I would say as a community of artists we should do what we can to ignore such uselessness and focus on those critiques which are actually useful, despite how they may be hard to take.

Thats my two cents!

~B

For every one person that loves my stuff and thinks its brilliant, about ten or twenty hate it and are just so vocally against it. Even when I deflate the arguments against penis, people still go for what I pointed out. Yeah, the arts cut and pasted. So is every other web comics. The jokes are usually gross out or "shock" humor related. Well this is the internet after all, and I don't intentionally try and make people get upset. Stuff that I think is just basic jokes that Looney Toons or Ren & Stimpy would do, I get told how awful I am. Or if I do a joke about a "super serious subject" I'm terrible. I did a story about those girls that cut their wrists and the mail I got from it was almost 90% "I used to cut myself, you're so rude!" type of stuff and the other 10% was "That was absolutely brilliant and hilarious man keep doing that type of stuff! You're awesome!" and the next one says "You're terrible and I hate you!" Same thing with comments some days I get "oh lol!" followed by "This is awful. Worst thing I've ever seen ever!" So I don't know what to tell ya. I think I'm doing good, but every time I get told I'm doing bad it still hurts.

People rip on me all the time, but I keep on doing my work. Its a lot of fun working on comics and it can be humerous to read how pissed off people get can get over dick and fart jokes. I can't really think of one really GOOD example, but if you look over in the review sub forum here on drunk duck, you'll see a lot of what I'm talking about. A lot of people just don't like me for whatever reason and it carries over into hating my comics. So who knows. Maybe its jealousy or maybe I'm a terrible human being with a bad sense of humor, but I keep on keeping on ya know.

Just gotta deal with it. Could be worse. People could just constantly be kissing my ass. I wouldn't know what to think if everybody suddenly liked me.

marine
Its a lot of fun working on comics and it can be humerous to read how pissed off people get can get over dick and fart jokes. I can't really think of one really GOOD example, but if you look over in the review sub forum here on drunk duck, you'll see a lot of what I'm talking about.

Holy flying hell, Marine. I just got done reading that thread. They weren't very nice were they?

I was really shocked at Eggberts post mostly, but then I kept reading and saw the good reviews. The people who gave you good review made a really good point about how your comic is supposed to work.

I guess most people looked at it bad because you insult a lot of different types people (even though that's the point).

Most ppl also look at it bad because of Marine's behavioral history on the forum. He's relatively better now, on the forum.

Hey Brock. I'm behind you. Your comment about that page of that strip wasn't mean spirited at all.

For every one person that loves my stuff and thinks its brilliant, about ten or twenty hate it and are just so vocally against it.

If everybody got a dollar everytime they looked at Penis, it would all be different.

The jokes are usually gross out or "shock" humor related.

Exactly. IMPACT you're looking for. The more you "shock" people, the more hits you'll get. You've said before you get around 400 hits a day. While I only get between 50-150 a day.

I think I'm doing good, but every time I get told I'm doing bad it still hurts.

Theres a saying that your art or comic is like a piece of your soul. That is why artists feel bad whenever their work is criticized. I've been to art school and I've seen girls cry... and guys get pissed (lol one guy even challenged the teacher to a fight... and he had to be restrained... lol!)

But hey. Focus on the ones that LIKE penis.

A lot of people just don't like me for whatever reason and it carries over into hating my comics.

Me too. Whenever theres a debate in the debate section, its always my opinion that differs from the others. I'm always the lone wolf against a pack of dogs. :) Well its nothing new. In real life I've always got the different opinion. As to why, maybe because of years of rejection by family and others, I just developed an instinct to go against the wind. As if by instinct... I REJECT most of what is "mainstream". Every stereotype you see in a local Filipino community near your area... I GUARANTEE you that I exhibit less than 10% of their stereotypical behavior.

Though I take being different and everything as a challenge... and it actually carried on into the comics I produce. Same shit different pile.

I've had people who LIKE MY COMICS but HATE ME. Thats the way it is, man...

Maybe its jealousy or maybe I'm a terrible human being with a bad sense of humor, but I keep on keeping on ya know.

Everyone has a different sense of humor. I laugh at the jokes in Penis... and yes I agree with you that there are jokes there that are done by looney toons.

Keep pumping out "Penis".

Or else someone else might try an imitation of it. haha.

Kyupol, man, I think you're mellowing out in your old age. I don't see you going crazy anymore.

mlai
But there's no requirement to be everybody's friend.

Which is why I'm able to easily drum up some humorous situations in Superchum, who is trying to be everybody's friend!

;-)


Sorry for the shameless plug.

Priest_Revan

marine
Holy flying hell, Marine. I just got done reading that thread. They weren't very nice were they?

I will admit this ... the first time I got an urge to maybe consider posting Superchum up in the review forum for review, I took a moment to browse the reviews that were up there. Marine's review thread scared the urge out of me really quickly.

Now I keep telling myself "Well maybe I'll think about it in 10 more pages." And then "or 20 more pages."

;)

That thread has some particularly brutal commentary in it. I don't think my skin is thick enough for that.

SteveMyers22

Priest_Revan

marine
Holy flying hell, Marine. I just got done reading that thread. They weren't very nice were they?

I will admit this ... the first time I got an urge to maybe consider posting Superchum up in the review forum for review, I took a moment to browse the reviews that were up there. Marine's review thread scared the urge out of me really quickly.

Now I keep telling myself "Well maybe I'll think about it in 10 more pages." And then "or 20 more pages."

;)

That thread has some particularly brutal commentary in it. I don't think my skin is thick enough for that.

I purposely admitted my comic because of his thread. It made me want to get cruel and unusual punishment for a furry comic that fails on so many levels. Everyone who reads my comic is always so nice about it... even when I asked people on my dA to be mean about it, most weren't... and those who were helped me and I made the changes that they talked about (perspective and showing legs and feet).

But come on man, Super Chum is awesome... but I guess it wouldn't be cool to insult the Chum.

lets get back on topic here

Agreed that we should all get back on topic. However, I did want to take a second to thank Mlai for seeing the spirit in which I commented. 'preciate it.

i used to get a lot of helpfull critisism on COMING SOON
such as this -

It's like horrendous storytelling in the form of repeated blows to the head, which indice seizures. And after you've bit your tougue and wet youself, you still look more pleasant that the item you've just behld with you own (now dialated) eyes.

No really. Why does this stuff come back every time? There has to be a law in the universe against it.

or this -

Ugh, I thought we were done with this spastic garbage when DD crashed. Ths comic has no redeeming values whatsoever.

i got a lot worse stuff on the old DD, in some ways oldschool DD was much better as far as people the interesting comments people would leave, lot's of 1s too !! i remember one guy saying my stuff looked like it was written by a drunk 7 year old !! one of my great fans went so far as to make an entire page of "fan art?" about how i was a bad person and couldn't do html (irony was it was my mad html hacking skillz that angered him in the first place)

oddly i get very little flame activity on GRIND

iowabarbidoll
I don't know many artists out there at any level who are not very effected by criticism. Well put, or nastily given, criticism just stings. Incredibly useful if well put, but it still hurts.

Really can't agree with you there - constructive criticism doesn't 'hurt' me at all. I know I'm far from perfect, and I want to improve, so it's great when people can verbalize exactly where there is room for improvement. It's often difficult for me to see these things, and as far as the writing goes, I really can't tell if and how the stuff works if I don't get feedback. Also, good critique shows someone has read my comic properly and given it a certain amount of thought, which in and of itself is really flattering when you think about it.

Anyway, here's a critique someone posted elsewhere after reading my first issue. As you may or may not be able to tell, this is from a forum mostly frequented by people I've been talking to online for a long while. It's definitely the most negative thing anyone's ever written about Bulletproof, but also the most helpful, frankly.

Homestarrunner was never cool.

I'm looking over your comic, now. There are some really nifty shots throughout. Atlas on the news is pretty cool. Skullhead's opening scene looks neat. Shockwire dodging the plume of flame is pretty nice. The last panel with Megan battered and unconscious on the bed is perhaps the best panel in the book. Nicely done.

Overall, though, the issue felt entirely generic to me. It's a plot-driven comic where the young and inexperienced heroine is put through the paces fighting a big baddie and some hoverbiker troops in robotic-looking armor, only to be rescued by some presumably government or otherwise famous super-team. I saw tons of this stuff in the '90s (hi, there, Wildstorm comics!). There's not a great deal of characterization (not a ton of room for it, all things considered), and I had a hard time being sold on trying to care for anybody that might have been in danger. Lindsay's dialogue unfortunately smacks of "male writer writing female dialogue." The swearing also seems way out of place for a book that has such a "clean" look to it. The title is "Bulletproof", and I don't see anybody in this 20-pager being bulletproof! There are a lot of little things that need some work. I suspect that there's been little response because nobody wants to crush your spirit, so it's easier to just say nothing.

Given all that, I'd still say "keep going."

Yep. There is some promise in this stuff. The trick is to find a way to give it some verve or some new spin. The coloring overall makes a lot of the shots "pop." I think you'd be wise to reconsider both your stance on coloring and your overall approach to the book. We're small press comics. We have full-time jobs. Putting out one or two books a year is perfectly acceptable. Concoct a slightly longer script with more room to breathe. Forget about emulating "mainstream" superhero rags with their 22-page monthly format. I'd suggest 20-40 page stories that actually end. Write what needs to be written, and take your time with the imagery and pacing. Find that nice middle ground between decompression and density, between plot-driven and character-driven. Speaking of characters, Megan is far and away your best character design (and perhaps the closest we get to real characterization in this busy story). Give her more screen time. Give her and everybody else easily identifiable goals and worries, and we'll start to root for them. I like the idea of Shockwire being hung up on Atlas, and him just being a total unattainable douche.

I dunno. Just keep going and refining. Let us know what you come up with.

My long-winded two cents.

lothar
oddly i get very little flame activity on GRIND

But didn't you find it just plain depressing how stupid they were not to see past all that? I mean, the HTML and the drawing style on Coming Soon are SO patently obviously deliberately MEANT TO BE THAT WAY, not for lack of skill but just to make a point. Someone being critical about something like that, as if it's all you can do and was done that way because you're too stupid to realise it conversely makes them appear dangerously retarded. Which is funny, but also quite sad.

In the end though it's like saying that Picasso was a rubbish artist who knew nothing about figures because he drew eyes on the same side of the face...

Yeah, so, that sort of criticism is not only unhelpful, it's just downright moronic.

I've always had the philosophy that unless the specific Internet venue was designed for flaming, it's best to keep the negative comments to oneself, unless liberally spiced with an equal amount of kindness. Even then, particularly on non-commercial artists' sites such as DD, it's best to keep real criticism to e-mail, particularly if you are a fellow artist with your own strip or comic.

We do have this forum, after all, to review or critique another person's work.

I'm fairly sanguine regarding drive by potshots from someone not themselves producing a work on DD. I mean, they are not ethically obligated to be civilized or courteous towards a fellow cartoonist. But when you do have an established strip of your own, what makes you think that you should bash someone else in public on their own page while they are doing their best to get established and to work the bugs out of their stuff? Particularly keeping in mind the practical aspect of, "What you so casually sling at one cartoonist just might come back at warp speed backed by decades of finely honed writing skill and piqued irritability."

Practicality aside, however, when DD has hundreds of strips and comics ranging from serious to silly, from political to non political, from excellent to the dregs of artistic taste and ability, why in the hell should a practicing cartoonist select one out of those hundreds of offerings to sling some mud against on their own damn page? Why not, if that's one's mindset, dedicate yourself to searching out and offering up blunt criticism of every - in your estimation - sub-standard bit of artistic dreck being foisted upon a critically helpless viewing public? Why take half measures if your heart so aches to become a part-time critic and arbiter of all that is great and good viewing and reading pleasure on DD?

So I guess it boils down to a concept of civilized behavior. I would no more go to a fellow cartoonist's site and post a strong criticism of their work for all to read than I appreciate the same treatment from a fellow cartoonist.

Despite all that you say, Bohemian, threads like "I'm sick of all the meaningless 5's" and "let's organize and become honest commenters" sprout up like dandelions.

Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?

mlai
Despite all that you say, Bohemian, threads like "I'm sick of all the meaningless 5's" and "let's organize and become honest commenters" sprout up like dandelions.

Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?

Yeah, it's a bugger of a conundrum isn't it? Do we all go about being bluntly honest with one another on the other person's 'toon page or do we save it for the forums?

Personally, I'd just as soon that DD removed the rating feature as well. I also think that the habit of civilized constraints simply promotes the auto-fiving of a strip when it's really a three or four that day. The real opinion usually comes across in the nature of the comment itself. But as I'm not one of the powers That Be, the process isn't going to be changed on my say so.

I have no problem with someone posting a link to their strip or comic in the criticism forum and inviting blunt criticism. I do have a problem with a fellow cartoonist visiting my site and laying a juicy, slimy loogie on my work in the name of 'friendly criticism,' which usually turns out to be nothing of the kind. That's the function of e-mail, if one is feeling particularly froggish.

Still, it's a poh-tay-toe/poh-tah-toe issue, and people are going to do whatever they darn well want. But then, so, too, it the artist-recipient of the faux 'friendly criticism.' The fact that it is the cartoonist that decides whether or not to mute someone or to leave both the piece of criticism and the - um - interesting response to it for all to read and smile over, does make for an interesting bit of entertainment value.

Then, too, there is the fact that said artist can always return the favor with a public and -- wink, wink - well intentioned bit of juicy criticism of their own. Fun for the whole family!

bohemian, it would be better to start a topic about it rather than derail this topic any further. if it continues, i will have no choice but to delete posts or lock this topic all together

bohemian: the topic you might wanna look into is this:
http://www.drunkduck.com/community/view_topic.php?tid=33024&cid=234

I had gotten some comments from people that at first my story didn't make sense, which was totally fine by me... because I originally started my comic to just practice the art side of comics. I knew going into it the writing of dialogue would suck the most.

I went back after a while just because and filled in some missing gaps that could have been explained better... and now I get more positive responses on the rare occasion I do update.

I've been simply told, "Get some talent." I've also had minicomics that I gave away for free returned to me the next day. Apparently some people though they weren't worth the nothing they paid for them. Of course they got a full refund.

Apparently some people though they weren't worth the nothing they paid for them. Of course they got a full refund.

nice punchline! lol!

"cheesecake sketch with
the excuse that you were too sick to get a comic
posted is purely Bush League. "

It came from an industry pro too... but honestly, he is right. Almost everything else he said was very kind and very encouraging. He was very kind for giving honest thoughts in the 2pg email he sent me...

It can only make me stronger *insert sadistic laughter here* >:)

The worst thing someone ever said to me about my comic is "I like it."

They had nothing to add to it, no where to go from there, and no suggestions for me to improve upon. I know the thing's not perfect (far from it), and there has to me more to it than three words that don't help me improve.

Don't get me wrong, I love the encouragement and want people to like my stuff, but there has to be something that I could do better. Not giving feedback or constructive criticism is probably the worst thing you can say (or I guess, NOT say) about someone's work.

Josh Elder (TokyoPOP's Mail Order Ninja) told me recently that my drama boarders on the melodramatic (which is true), and that I should stick to comedy more because I have a natural sense of humor. The comedy isn't necessarily punchline-heavy, but it snaps and flows realistically. It may not always be laugh-out-loud funny, but it doesn't fail to put a smile on the reader's face.

Now, that's good feedback.

The worst thing someone ever said to me about my comic is "I like it."

You should have been around during the old school drunkduck.

People were at least 10x more brutal than they are now.

An Anonymous said to me on Badly Drawn Manga once : OmG dArK lInK iS dA wUrSt At ArT aNd ShUd Go DeI nOw He EmO fAg.

As an Anonymous, I couldn't trace him and comment on his comic, in the end I reported him.

I get a lot of, "Why don't you update when you're supposed to?" or "LOL! You wish you were Mike Mignola, you hack!" over at The Path. That last one is 100% true, of course. I DO wish I was Mike Mignola.

My personal favorite "critique" came from, not a fellow DDer(who, 9 times out of 10 are very civil and objective in their critiques IMHO), but from someone at a "Comics Professionals Dinner". This little old man (whose name I cannot remember) looked at me from behind these glasses that were almost comically too large for his face and said "This is f@#king retarded." with the straightest face I had ever seen. He offered no reason, just said that, shoved the now-crumpled copy of The Path he'd been reading at me, and walked away.

I'm an odd duck, I suppose, because I thought that was awesome.

kyupol
You should have been around during the old school drunkduck.

People were at least 10x more brutal than they are now.

Really? But were their comments helpful or just hurtful?

trevoramueller

kyupol
You should have been around during the old school drunkduck.
People were at least 10x more brutal than they are now.

Really? But were their comments helpful or just hurtful?

Let's just say... Enough to make a pretty good amiable Featured artist to pull his comic and drive him out of DD.

I'm not talking about myself LOL. I was inactive for a few years out of simple laziness.

Really? But were their comments helpful or just hurtful?

There was a share of assholeness and helpfulness.

But back then, expect comments to be along the lines of:

- "You are a waste of space on the internet..."
- "My 5 year old sister/brother/niece/nephew/cousin can draw better than that"
- "Your comic is not even worth toilet paper to be wiped on my ass"
- "This is the stupidest most cliche thing I ever saw on the internet"
- "Just kill yourself and stop whining"

Sometimes there were helpful stuff... things like:

- Oh... the figure is not like that. Do this... do that... arm too long... she's too fat... etc... etc... etc...

- You could have done this to the story. Instead of him being so cliche, try blablabla...

- Wrong spheling and grammer getting pointing out.