It a question of old school verses the New school. I love what people are doing with comic art these days they look so great. I pull out one of my old comic from the 90's and earlier and alot of the time they look alot better. The panels are used better and the comics are more action packed. There is alot more dialog and the stories are more interesting.

Am I wrong let me know.

CyberDog

Assuming you're speaking mainly about the mainstream output of the Big Two, I think you're half right. It depends on what you want from a comic.

Generally speaking, I'd say the artwork today is far better than we were used to seeing in the "old days". Obviously there are exceptions but, in the main, I feel today's artists pay more attention to backgrounds and have a far better grasp of human anatomy. (Generally speaking!)

On the downside, the focus on more detailed artwork has meant that panels have become bigger. It's not uncommon these days to buy a comic and find only three panels to a page or to find two or three splash pages in an issue. In comparison, the comics of the 1970s and 1980s would routinely have eight or more panels to a page. Not that the number of panels is any guarantee of quality, of course, but it does mean that an average comic these days has only half as much story as the comics of yesteryear.

This doesn't necessarily mean that one approach is "better" than the other. If you buy comics mainly to marvel at the artwork (and I'm sure some people do), then today's comics are (for the most part!) infintely superior. On the other hand, if you buy comics mainly to read a story (as I do), then a modern comic which you can read in three or four minutes is simply poor value for money.

Comic discussion post :)

I hear ya on that one DAJB. Since I started my own comic I find myself studing the comic I'm reading. In new comics coloring and special effects are awsome, but the storylines are to simple. I was just wondering if anyone else noticed that too.

OzoneOcean: My bad bro. I'll pay more attention to the forms I post, LOL.

I totally agree with you both. I've seen newer comics, such as Secret Invasion, or even the newer Captain America comics. There's less storyline, and more art.

Not that it's necessarily a bad thing, it's just, I'm trying to get into these, and it's hard, because you pay good money for a short book. That's why I love webcomics so much, you don't have to pay anything, and all you have to do is be patient.

And usually when I go to the comic store, I go to the older comics.
Not that newer comics suck, but like DAJB said, there is less story content. Which makes it less interesting for older readers. Or just people involved in storylines.


And another thing. Cross-overs. I hate them. Only in print comics do I hate them though. The reason why? I got these books from the comic store one week, called Bloodstrike, and I went back there the next week, got a few more, and apparently, it ties in with this book called "Brigade", so I looked for it, found a few, and went online seeing how many Bloodstrikes there were.

Come to find out, I had gotten the wrong Brigade. Apparently, there was more than one.

So. I hate crossovers.

D:

I generally despise new comics. The storylines are usually re-tailored old stories (especially in the big two and their clones) and even the "original" series have this cookie-cutter Jim Lee clone look, artwise. Yes, the colors are sharper, the effects are better and the lettering is more imaginative...but are the stories any good and is the art original?

Give me a 1980s George Perez Teen Titans (or Wonder Woman), a John Byrne/Terry Austin X-Men issue, Walt Simonson's Thor, Frank Miller's Daredevil or even Jack Kirby's Fantastic Four or Captain America ANY day! Some of the last really enjoyable creative works of the 1990s were from Peter David and his art team on the Incredible Hulk (before it slowly descended into nonsense -- what's this about a "Red" Hulk? *yawns*).

Independent-wise in the late 80s and early 90s, give me The Elementals! It was weird, bloody and kinda dark but it was original and thoroughly readable.

They still used newsprint then and the colors suffered for it but the writing was bold and original, the artstyles were varied and it had a lot more heart. I doubt anyone would have dared kill Captain America with a stupid sniper bullet or even consider un-marrying Peter Parker and Mary Jane! Too many modern comics writers are simply out of ideas and feel they can rehash the stories of the past better than the original artists. It almost never works...

Oh, and cyberdog, to prove my point: go buy the first Wolverine 4-issue limited series from 1983 with story by Chris Claremont and art by Frank Miller (with Terry Austin inks, I believe) and then compare it today's comics...and I think you'll find your answer. :)

The lack of story is why I buy graphic novels only.

Ah oh, it looks like I struck a nerve with this one. I hope someone in the big time is listening to this.

I don't necessarily think that modern comics do less story-telling than some of the older ones. Garth Ennis does a decent job of getting a fair amount of content into the Punisher Born and Maxx series and the art in those is also pretty good. The story isn't necessarily in tune with the rest of The Punisher series, but it's one of those things that you really have to learn to view as being in it's own cell and totally unconnected to the rest of the character's story lines. A lot of comics are something you have to ignore that they share a common character with other story lines and focus on them as a single stand-alone piece instead of something of a larger universe. Most times, they become a little more enjoyable when you keep each series separate from the others in your head.

Many of the smaller comic publishers are also doing an ok job of managing the balance too. Recently I picked up a copy of a Vietnam era story called "The Other Side" which, although I only found the first issue, seemed to do a pretty good job of balancing art and story and even allowed some of the indy graphic novel influences into it.

Read the marvel Comsic stuff that stuff is great and on time. I really like the art for guardian of the galaxy. It depends on the artist. The art for Criminal is amazing along with the Darwyn Cooke team. Really we probably look at older comics with much more appreciation because only the good works survive time(anyone wants to read Rob Liefeld's run on X-force). It's the same deal with movies for every good one and classic story there's a group load of crap. Have you actually tried to read some silver age stuff and some golden age stuff. I mean look at the older designs of Namor and you say that he looked better then.

You're right the art for the new comics are really amazing. But you have to admit that the pages back then were more interesting. There were more panels, and in essence more STORY. The dialog took you deeper into the comic than the new ones do. There are so many Alternate universes for one character that it makes following the character almost impossible. They kill Captain America then they bring him back. At the same time they're running an issue on the shelf next to it of a comic of Captain America withered and aging that can project his spirit into other people to "inspire" them to be heros themselves. That is ridiculous. It's gotten to the point were Marvel is reprinting old comics just to beef up some crappy comic issue that was pushed out to quick. Trying to fake you with, "Hey look you bought one and you got two!"

Silly
Cyberdog

There was this whole thread about compression vs decompression somewhere in here recently.

To be honest? I prefer current comics. As long as they're not too deeply tied into the overal continuity. Joss Whedon's run on Astonishing X-Men was amazing (and as detached from the regular continuity as possible), and so was Rucka's and Brubaker's Gotham Central (which ended somewhere 2005 or 2006 after a 40 issue run).

The thing is... most of current titles are written for the trade, which means 4-6 issue storylines, whether the story requires this many issues or not (a lot of things could be easily squeezed into one issue without any quality loss... on the other other tales that should be running for 2-3 issues more are crammed into whatever number of pages the next trade will have). THAT is the problem. Still, most of these read great once you grab the trade.


But hey, you know? Screw Marvel and DC superhero stories. There's A LOT MORE interesting things happening at the smaller publishers. Whatever genre it may be...

Image (Invincible, The Walking Dead, Savage Dragon, Proof, Crawl Space/Xxxombies... and many many more), Shadowline (the Surreal Adventures of Edgar Alan Poo, New World Order, Aletheia, Bomb Queen), Dark Horse (Hellboy, BPRD, The Goon, Rex Mundi, Fear Agent... ), IDW (30 Days of Night, Wormwood Gentleman Corpse, Tank Girl, Metal Gear Solid...), Avatar (Alan Moore's Hypothetical Lizard, Black Summer, Frank Miller's Robocop...), Oni Press (Queen and Country, Polly and the Pirates, Courtney Crumrin, Local...), Virgin (Devi, Snake Woman, Sadhu...), Archaia Studio Press (Artesia, Mouse Guard...), Devil's Due Publishing (hack/slash, forgotten realms...), Dynamite (red sonja, army of darkness...), Arcana (100 girls, dragon's lair...), Antarctic Press (oz: the manga, beowulf...), Digital Webbing (blood rayne, sword of dracula...), Fantagraphics , Drawn & Quarterly, Markosia... and a whole bunch of other smaller publishers which I don't remember at the moment.

You could buy 50 different comics every month and not buy anything from marvel or dc at all :)

Interesting

Actually I think now there's more panels (read We3 unfair comparison) but here's the thing the dialog in the older comics were really heavy. They usually ended up to be over written and really made everyone talk in monologues and over exposition. There's a special place in my heart for that. Also now comics tend for the cinematic look with trying to show lots by saying little so now a lot of the panels are more dependent on the pictures rather than the words. ( I wish I had more old comics to make comparison. Most of my issues were from Marvel during the late 90s but I do have some Secret War and West Coast Avengers comics including the one that introduced the Great Lakes Avengers. My trades are mostly stuff post 2000. I have two trades of EC comics from the 50s) Really I feel that the pacing has become more decompressed so you will feel like the story takes longer. That's understandable and with comics costing 3 bucks a min. You probably would rather read them in trades(particularly books from vertigo).

Actually I appreciate the alt. universe stories alot of times. It's interesting to see someone's else interpretations of the characters, but this is only for the big two. So many good books out there in trade from the smaller presses. So little money in my bank account...

Sick and tired of the umpteenth "new interpretation" of tired old characters. It's an American tradition/concept which I have zero tolerance for. You want to tell a new story? Write a new story. With new characters.

Someone
You could buy 50 different comics every month and not buy anything from marvel or dc at all

You da man.

LOL, I visited the local comic store today and the explination for the old comic reprints is to market the comics better. Whatever, thats cool I guess. I agree with the cinematic look of comics now. It looks awsome. I just miss the deep storylines comics use to have. I'm sure there are some out there. I can't see every comic out there at once. Just wanted to see what everyone thought about this subject. May we all write and create comics that uphold our own highest ideas of what comics should be.

Hope you see your comic on the shelf one day
CyberDog, OUT.

Screw that. Print sucks. I don't even draw for print; my page sizes are all over the places, whatever the art demands.

I'm not sure if you mean publishing you're stuff for print or not.

But printed stuff is nice. I wonder what some of our stuff would like if it was reflected off a paper instead of being projected off a screen. Personally I would rather read something on paper it's easier on the eyes

I usually just buy the graphic novel collections, but I haven't bought a new one in a while. The last one I got was Superman/Batman: Public Enemies and that was in April. I'm looking at all the others, like Ultimate Spiderman, Nightwing, etc. and I haven't found much that I have liked.

I find myself thinking 'Okay, next time I buy something' the next thing that comes along is something that's a collection of stuff that, at the newest, is ten years old. Which is good, because these classics are still around for all of us who've only just gotten into them , to enjoy for much longer. And if they aren't in stock, i can just ask and they're there in a fortnight.

Of course, that's just with Marvel and DC. I've been taking a look at some of the indie groups Aurora_Borealis mentioned and I'm finding myself heading towards them more. Can't remember any of the titles by name though. Oh wel, at least the comicbook industry still has some rather talented people within it.

Oni crime books

I hear ya man. Maybe all the grip is over the classics that we all know and love. Change is something hard to deal with, but it's what keeps the industry and characters alive.

I rarely read Marvel or DC superhero comics anymore. I'm sick of the same old characters that will never truly change because they need to remain a lucrative property for licensing purposes.

I think the best thing DC has ever done was founding the Vertigo line. I have never read a Vertigo book that I didn't like. I think that comics, as a medium and an industry, need to prove to the mainstream population that there's more to comic storytelling than superhero books, and Vertigo does a good job of this.

The majority of the books that I'm currently reading are Image, Dark Horse, or Vertigo titles. They generally avoid the stale storytelling that has become common in the more mainstream superhero books because they don't have the same constraints applied to them. Characters can die and stay dead, they don't need world-shattering mega-crossovers, and the art is a lot freer stylistically. Although, to be fair, superhero art has diversified quite a bit over the years.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of comic readers who are set in their ways and reluctant to try out new titles that don't have characters that they've been reading for ten or twenty years in them. Now, that's a good thing for Marvel and DC, but for the industry as a whole it's something that needs to be addressed.

I just love the medium of comics

i say old probably cuase everyone i follow is considered an old schooler. not that i dont like stuff just cuase it's new, i just havent found anything new to bring my attention away from these guys. a few examples:







but hell, im not saying there's absolutly no one new with any talent. i just havent gotten into anyone, and with the fact there arent any comic stores within reasonable distance, it's probably gonna stay that way for a while.

mlai
Screw that. Print sucks. I don't even draw for print; my page sizes are all over the places, whatever the art demands.

that's something i've been thinking of playing with with Putrid. the last few pages i did i didnt measur eout my page or anything, just dumped em all over the page and i feel i lot of tihngs could come cross better that way. it's not a bad idea.

mlai
Screw that. Print sucks. I don't even draw for print; my page sizes are all over the places, whatever the art demands.

I'm the opposite. After having ten or so people tell me that they want to buy the book once it's complete, I must say I am pretty happy that I kept nice page proportions. Now if only I knew the cost of printing on demand in color I'd probably go for b&w straight away. Oh well, live and learn, will simply make two versions :)

PIT_FACE
i say old probably cuase everyone i follow is considered an old schooler. not that i dont like stuff just cuase it's new, i just havent found anything new to bring my attention away from these guys. a few examples:







but hell, im not saying there's absolutly no one new with any talent. i just havent gotten into anyone, and with the fact there arent any comic stores within reasonable distance, it's probably gonna stay that way for a while.

Since drunkduck keeps loging me out when I try to edit posts, I'll make a second one...

I actually have that Bisley book at the top and would pretty much love to have some Druillet (a friend has ordered Chaos for me as it was the only book available through amazon that could be ordered to where he lives) but it seems like half of his works has not been done in any language I understand :P

i know! and the works i have by druillet, i only have by runnig into em by accident and i cant read the first or the end of the story cuase i DONT FUCKIN HAVE IT!!!! but he's an amazing artist! shit......i gotta get some more money for ebay.

i'd say his art's so wicked it doesnt need the dialogue, but some stuff i've read recently by druillet, man it's awesome!dialogue and all! like old issues of heavy metal and stuff.

the drummer/artist for a band named Voivod got a lot of people into him becuase he himself is such a fan of phillipe. and you can totaly see his art resinate in a lot of his album covers and stuff.




and their music SEVERLY reflects their art.
just more proof of how i'm hooked on old schoolers.
and hell, who doesnt want to understand the roots of their art?

Aurora Borealis

PIT_FACE
i say old probably cuase everyone i follow is considered an old schooler. not that i dont like stuff just cuase it's new, i just havent found anything new to bring my attention away from these guys. a few examples:







but hell, im not saying there's absolutly no one new with any talent. i just havent gotten into anyone, and with the fact there arent any comic stores within reasonable distance, it's probably gonna stay that way for a while.

Since drunkduck keeps loging me out when I try to edit posts, I'll make a second one...

I actually have that Bisley book at the top and would pretty much love to have some Druillet (a friend has ordered Chaos for me as it was the only book available through amazon that could be ordered to where he lives) but it seems like half of his works has not been done in any language I understand :P

Okay, this is what I KNOW that is available in English somewhere out there :)
Maybe it'll help you find stuff, or maybe you know it already... anyway.

Six Voyages of Lone Sloane and Delirius are in one volume from Dragon's Dream printed in 70s. I saw it popping out from the Amazon sellers from time to time, but apparently "international" shipping doesn't include Poland (me) or Hungary (friend that wanted to buy me them). Volume's called "Lone Sloane; Delirius".

Yragael and Urm are also printed in one volume, this one's a bit more difficult to find.
Urm was also featured in Heavy Metal itself, from February to May 1978.
Yragael came much later and at a rather low page ratio (took ten months to finish).
Starting April 1982 and ending January 1983.

Few weeks ago Amazon had 3 copies left of Chaos, which is the fourth volume of Lone Sloane (yes, in English from Heavy Metal), currently waiting for one of them to find its way into Hungary :)

Gail was printed in old Heavy Metal issues. First part (in b&w for some reason) in June 1977. Then there was a year long gap and further parts were from July 1978 through January 1980

Salammbo was published in Heavy Metal but the trilogy was never finished. It started August and September 1980, and continued after a break in February and March 1981. Second volume, Carthage went from February to September 1984, possibly ending (never got to verify that). Third volume, Matho is not visible on any lists I checked, so it was most likely never published, unless they compressed two volumes together, but I really doubt that.

Nosferatu was published by Dark Horse in 1990 or 1991 and it seems Druillet had a fallout with them over something and so it's out of print (in English) since then.

Vuzz... well, heavy metal December 1977 is SUPPOSEDLY having the entire story. But it doesn't. What it holds is La Bas, the sequel to Vuzz. So, Vuzz as such was never printed in English as far as I know.

And finally there's Elric: Return to Melnibone, which is more of an illustrated story (and reuses some illustrations from other volumes, Yragael I think), is out of print and costs about 100-150$ for 20 pages or so, haha.

There's also a whole bunch of Druillet's short stories splattered across early Heavy Metal issues (sometimes even in the same ones as the big stories were running. Some of them were drawn by Druillet, some written and drawn by others. Some were collaborations.

april 1997
Rut (short story);
the Adventures of Yrris pt1 of 2? - philippe druillet and dominique "alexis" vallet

may 1997
the Adventures of Yrris pt2 of 2? - philippe druillet and dominique "alexis" vallet
agorn (short story)

july 1997
Approaching Centauri - philippe druillet and moebius
the golden queen: a border ballad - serge bihannic and druillet

august 1997
the black queen - marcel gotlib and philippe druillet
hamilton potemkine (short story)

september 1997
AAARRRZZZ - (short story)

july 1978
the story of the acrylic magus and his vibratory perturbations

october 1978
Blob! (short story)

may 1979
dancin' (short story)

october 1979
excerpts from the necronomicon 1979

july 1980
a message from the shadows

october 1980
lead guitar (short story)

july 1981
firaz (druillet/picotto) reprinted in the best of#2 1986)

october 1981
druillet gallery

january 1982
toward a new day (short story)

son of heavy metal 1984 special
the story of the stone cube - druillet and serge bihannic


What is NOT available?

Les Mysteres Des Abimes - Druillet's and Lone Sloane's debut, also known as Lone Sloane 66. I don't think it was reprinted since 80s, and never in another language.

La Nuit - The Night? I think so... well, I think it had a German and Italian (or Spanish?) edition, but not an English one.

Vuzz - the first, proper one.

Third volume of Salammbo (I envy the French, they got salammbo l'integrale, a one volume edition of the entire trilogy).

Mirages - this one I think is out of print in french too I think? Was nearly impossible to find anything about that (well, in English language anyway, my french is... isn't at all, haha).

Perhaps some other stories that I accidentally ommitted or don't know about. Could be some more short stories that never got their way into heavy metal.
Aaand there are 2-3 volumes that he wrote but didn't illustrate.

Yeah, sorry, I got carried away :D

I like old as well as new comics and usually for different reasons. I do think it's important to have some sense of the history of the medium. I don't like the "standardization" that goes on today. Creators need to remember that a comic can be anything from a squiggle to a fully rendered, photo realistic figure. And words. It's got to have some words.
I'm always eager to see innovation and personal vision. I still read a lot of mainstream because I'm a dope for super stories. However, it's rarely as exciting as discovering someone who has strayed away from the formulaic. That's my two cents.