junoblairb
Otherwise, bask in the glory that these morons are only helping you climb higher in the ranks of DD. ;)

ozoneocean
No Hp.
No one is saying that at all. Not one single person here.

It seems to be that what almost everyone here is talking about is that joking and laughing at people's work doesn't impress them, but they all like intelligent criticism, especially when they get to read it.

I have some nice crow here for you if you wish to consume it. :)

Let's face it, there are some people who really shouldn't be doing comics, and even if they're being mocked, usually there are REASONS for it, and a mature person would see these reasons and work to fixing them, or just stop in general.

So instead of being grumpy about being mocked, one should consider what needs to be done to avoid being mocked in the future and not dwell on it. Simple enough.

I recieved a rather scathing review in the past, about two years ago, and after hard work? I totally blew the reviewer away. I didn't dwell on "woe is me he doesn't like what I do", I kept at it and FIXED my errors.

So instead of slinging mud and bitching about 'why couldn't it be constructive', maybe we should be asking ourselves, 'how can we solve our problems ourselves?'

Well, they're inviting negative feelings by making the forum a pay-per-view forum. I can understand a lengthy/pay registration in order to comment, but I can't even view it? Who the hell do they think they are? It doesn't matter if everything on that forum are intelligent and fair; the superbads-r'-us basement-clubhouse mentality won't earn them any friends.

But on that note, what do you have to do to attract their attention so they will make mega-threads laughing at you and link you like mad? (If you have to be famous first to attract them, then it defeats the purpose of my question. lol!...)

mlai
Well, they're inviting negative feelings by making the forum a pay-per-view forum. I can understand a lengthy/pay registration in order to comment, but I can't even view it? Who the hell do they think they are? It doesn't matter if everything on that forum are intelligent and fair; the superbads-r'-us basement-clubhouse mentality won't earn them any friends.

But on that note, what do you have to do to attract their attention so they will make mega-threads laughing at you and link you like mad? (If you have to be famous first to attract them, then it defeats the purpose of my question. lol!...)

They make it a pay-to-use forum because they have over 95,000 members there who post, and it takes a lot of resources to keep a community that large going. It's perfectly fair that they make people buy accounts.

Do you know how many resources on a database just READING a topic can take up?

So saying it's unfair that they charge people to read is being naive, because they have to use a lot of resources to even HAVE that forum.

They don't want friends. They just want to discuss in their community and anyone who is able to let things roll off of them is welcome to come in and be a part of it.

The megathread is just a webcomic thread in general, over 20 pages long with the conversation bouncing around. Some people post their comics in there, derailing the conversation, and get justly torn to shreds. Sometimes, they just find a link to a webcomic and proceed to point out it's problems, and on rare occassions (with rare, good comics) actually praise someone's work. I'd get my ass handed to me if they ever posted my work there, but you know what? Who cares? I'd just use it to improve.

Something Awful isn't the big evil entity that the internet likes to portray it as, they keep egos in check and provide the net wih a good enema once and a while.

I think the main problem is just that they have their forum hidden away where nobody can read it unless they want to shell out money to do so. I don't see anyone here upset over being critiqued fairly (although I did skim a few of the posts, so I may have missed it) - but really, how is a critique hidden away on a forum where it's unavailable for the critiquee to view (without shelling out cash) helping anyone at all? How can I improve from something that I can't read? I'm not upset that they talk about (and/or mock) comics behind closed doors, whatever floats their boats. But I don't really understand where you're coming from when you say that we should learn from and improve due to it. Seems a little silly.

OK, HPK. That makes sense.
How much money are we talking about, per registrant? I'll subscribe if it's like a dime a month.

silentkitty
I think the main problem is just that they have their forum hidden away where nobody can read it unless they want to shell out money to do so. I don't see anyone here upset over being critiqued fairly (although I did skim a few of the posts, so I may have missed it) - but really, how is a critique hidden away on a forum where it's unavailable for the critiquee to view (without shelling out cash) helping anyone at all? How can I improve from something that I can't read? I'm not upset that they talk about (and/or mock) comics behind closed doors, whatever floats their boats. But I don't really understand where you're coming from when you say that we should learn from and improve due to it. Seems a little silly.

Why should they run the risk of losing their forum due to bandwidth costs just so some people can read what people are saying about their comic? How is that fair? Especially when the subjects of the discussion would simply cause trouble about it anyway. If you can't read what they're saying, why complain about it? Why call them morons when you don't even know what they're talking about? The whole thread here has been a bunch of people making an assumption about the forum while there were only two people who were even part of Something Awful.

As I recall, skoolmunkee got the information to Eviltwinpixie, so she found out what was being said, and my statements do not extend to just SA, but any sites that discuss comics, like "Your Webcomic is Bad and You Should Feel Bad " this thread here is simply one of many mudslinging sessions because people can't take being mocked (often times deserving the mockery they recieve).

I don't think it was fair for anyone here to insult the SA user-base when nobody here could actually SEE the goddamn thread.

mlai
OK, HPK. That makes sense.
How much money are we talking about, per registrant? I'll subscribe if it's like a dime a month.

basic forum subscription is 10 dollars.

hpkomic
I have some nice crow here for you if you wish to consume it. :)

Oh please HP. Please. I specifically worded what wrote to SAY that almost everyone (and that included Juno) were talking about people that laugh and poke fun, NOT give helpful criticism and not where they can see it.

I can't make that any clearer.

All you seem to be trying to do is either:
A: Elevate sniping and fun regular piss-take sessions to something higher and more noble.
Or
B: Defend some lovely tradition of people selflessly lending their time to give reasoned thoughtful evaluations of comics, that isn't actually what anybody here is even talking about.

I don't want to offend you, but you do tend to get on a high horse about things like that.

Defending the SA thread is pointless because non-paying members here can't see it. Try and realise that the concept of people making fun of others behind their backs is what people here are concerned about, not specifically the actual thread and what it happens to contain etc because they just have no idea.

You are on a high horse about defending that thread and the idea of criticism in general, but believe me, you're just being quixotic, it was never truly under attack... although by turning things more about more towards it by defending it like that you are actually making it a target.

hpkomic... who are you again?

ozoneocean
You are on a high horse about defending that thread and the idea of criticism in general, but believe me, you're just being quixotic, it was never truly under attack... although by turning things more about more towards it by defending it like that you are actually making it a target.

And I don't think insulting them when nobody could see what was being said is fair either. You say it is pointless to defend them because nobody can see what was being said, but it's okay to insult them for the same reason?

Maybe I'm a little on edge right now due to how much grief people get over being honest about people's work, I tend to get a lot of grief whenever I critique someone, I don't like seeing it happen to anyone, so maybe I am being defensive. I'm sorry, but I see this sort of thing all the time, and it frankly bothers me. I still don't think it's fair for you guys to be insulting them when nobody could see what was being said aside from me and Skoolmunkee. Making fun of people behind their backs is the nature of the internet, I think the fact we're discussing it in the first place is a bad thing, it should just be ignored, but we're paying attention to it.

So, if my comments were me going into a tangent, I'm sorry, but I still think that calling them morons is uncalled for because nobody could see what was being said in the first place. Hell, before we even KNEW that they were being critical of Pixie's art several users jumped on the anti-SA bandwagon.

No offense taken, really, I enjoy discussions like this, I just hope people see what I am trying to say. I don't believe I went into a tangent, but if I did, it wasn't my intention.

Hyptosis
hpkomic... who are you again?

I'm not sure what you want to know?

Geez, talk about negativity.

Maybe it's because, like hpk, I can see the thread, but I do feel like people are attacking it a bit here. I agree with pretty much everything he's said, by the way.

To the people who are getting all upset about the idea of being reviewed someplace where you can't go look it up - I don't see what there is to get upset over. Just because someone says something on the internet doesn't mean it's yours by right to have access to it. If they cared for you to know what they said then they'd tell you themselves. Just because you can see who the referrer is you get all curious, which I can understand, but then all pissed off because it's a pay site? I don't get it. How is someone making a comment on your comic on a pay site any different to someone speaking a comment to someone else, someplace you can't hear?

The point of that thread (as already said by hpk, AND myself earlier in this same thread) is NOT to critique webcomics. It's about webcomic discussion in general. Techniques, likes, dislikes, praise, advice, questions and answers, and yeah sometimes a bit of making fun (we all do it). It isn't just a bunch of jerks getting together to make fun of people (and the argument that only good webcomicers are allowed to critique other webcomicers is a stupid one). it's people who are interested in the medium and often have their own comics, a place for them to discuss their craft and interests. And anyway, if they are paying to be on the site to make fun of people, that's their business isn't it? not the business of the person being made fun of.

lol! Hahahaha! Come on... People aren't antsy about critiques, they just don't like the idea of being laughed at behind their backs, whether that actually ever happens or not.

Please, this needn't become some emo defence of poor people who like to critique things. it is a tangent.



Anyway, let's talk about the idea of negative publicity! Seeing that's what started the thread. :)
Well as my own work slowly gets more popular I occasionally do searches to see what people say about my stuff and it can be interesting. I recently came across two interesting and negative things related to my stuff. One was about how going to my site on DD had given the guy's computer "AIDS" lol! (some kind of silly pop-up add DD seems quietly infested with) and another that was commenting on one of my comic slogans and taking it out of context in a bizarre way.

The first one could only be bad for me, but the second caused people to actually search out my comic to see for themselves, so it can be good and bad. And actually the first one was good in a way because it helped bring a problem with DD to my attention.

hpkomic
I recieved a rather scathing review in the past, about two years ago, and after hard work? I totally blew the reviewer away. I didn't dwell on "woe is me he doesn't like what I do", I kept at it and FIXED my errors.

I received one letter about Superchum in the 2 years it was published in my college newspaper (1995 to 1996). Just one. It was hate mail too. Really mean hate mail.

I kept the letter.

I even hired the person who wrote the hate mail to do art for the college paper. And gave him space on the comics page for his own comic (he did make the claim that he could do better than the 3 student drawn comics I was already featuring ... including my own ... so I figured why not give him the chance?)

I think that's the most positive I've ever reacted towards unconstructive criticism.

Like I said, I kept the letter. I still re-read it from time to time. It motivates me. The person had no actual criticism of my linework or storytelling or craftsmanship. Just kind of bashed me and the college paper in general. And griped about how unfair it was that non-art majors were in charge of the student newspaper's art department (which, you know, was mere coincidence ... I sought out any and all artists willing to work for the paper which at the time wasn't many).

Anyways, to bring this tale to a close ... I still draw my comic. Over a decade later. I'm still working on the art. I still take art classes (I wasn't an art major back then even, but I've always been taking classes). I still look to improve as an artist and a writer.

The person who wrote the letter?

Took my job the year after I graduated. Ended up being part of the worst run of the college paper's history. Lost color. Shrunk the comics section down. And hasn't drawn his own comic strip SINCE college.

Like I said, I keep that letter.

So I don't know, negative criticism can sometimes be motivational. But you do need some thick skin to deal with it. And I don't always have the thickest skin. So I can understand why some people react the way they do to internet criticism. Heck, Tom Breevort and Mark Waid and Joe Q. have gone on record stating can't stand some forms of internet feedback.

Emo defense eh? I'll bad publicity you!

skoolmunkee
Emo defense eh? I'll bad publicity you!

Oh noes! lol!

On bad publicity - A good long time ago one of the webcomic lists which allowed comments had a nice long string of hate on me. To be honest, some of the things I felt were legit crits, most however were not. I worked to fix the ones that weren't but in the meantime my wonderful webcomic list of hate got notice by my wonderful webcomic collective of cult readers and it turned a little brutal. Passion is a good thing. When people see that many others going to war over a webcomic... well, wouldn't you want to know what all the fussin' and fightin' was about?

Ha! ...I suspect you're already doing that... In fact, I bet you're laughing at me right this second! Gah!

*disses Ozone in PQs with Skoolmunkee*

Also, as for that review I got, you can read it here . It's much more fair than I deserved at the time.

Like I said, I'm not really bothered by what they said now that I know what it is, and most of it I'd agree with, but stuff like "It's like a transvestite Bratz doll", "The stuff of nightmares, that", and "haha, and also, that artist is a girl" (just trying to pick out bits that aren't references to the character design that isn't mine) isn't really... you know, constructive. ;)

It's just people insulting you where you can't see.

And whether it's right or wrong, that's gonna bring out feelings in the people who are the focus of that, or people who are worried they might be.

Blarg, we should start a thread where we poke fun at our own art and encourage others to do so too! I reckon that'd be good for a few lolz! A bit of self castigation can be quite enjoyable up to a point, and if others could think up insults to boot, I think that'd be even cooler. :)
-erg, creative criticism too if you reeeeeally want.

In fact I think it could even go in the comic forum rather than thee art forum if we word it right... I'm gonna try it now! ^__^

-edit-
Trying it out here .

bongotezz
it appears they dont like my art. and that just means they dont get it. my comic is not about the art. it's about the story and entertainment. they go on and on bashing comic after comic for things as meaningless as font choice. all this bashing and not a single link to their comics. this means they are pretentious. they raise themselves up to webcomic experts but dont have one of their own or at least none they are sharing.

Wow, man.

Who's in on the discussions in that SA thread? Let's see... the creators of some of the most popular comics on the net, from Achewood to Dr McNinja, with a shitload that you love in between. You might just want to heed their advice, instead of flinging insults about, because they kind of know what they're doing.

The topic is about us and negative publicity here TnT - it's already been decided to stop discussing Something Awful and their comments.

So let's not derail shall we? Thanks. :)

OzoneOcean
Please, this needn't become some emo defence of poor people who like to critique things. it is a tangent.



Anyway, let's talk about the idea of negative publicity! Seeing that's what started the thread.

Funny how the very tone of the discussion was Anti-SA, but we get mad at anyone who picks up on that, telling them to get back on subject when the subject was so easily ignored in the first place. :P

Someone should just lock this thread and start a new one for negative publicity, because we'll still have people coming into the discussion and bringing up the SA thing (which is perfectly fair to do) and end up getting told off because of it.

It's not a fair thing, it's just picking on something a couple of people can easily get mad about because that's what they like to do :)

I agree with the lock suggestion though!