Tired of trying to explain the problems mainstream (ie: DC and Marvel) comics have about sexism to people who just don't get it (or don't want to)? Tired of saying the same used explanation to those just plain too dumb to understand that sexism is bad? Then send them to the Bingo Board of Stupid Excuses!


http://girl-wonder.org/girlsreadcomics/?p=66 [girl-wonder.org]

Don't waste your time! Just send them here instead of ripping out all your luscious hair trying to enlighten their juvenile minds!

For all the feminist women, men, old, and young and maybe robot!

Note: This isn't about how every single comic out there is sexist. It's about the silliness that comes with confronting a comic that is sexist and the silly excuses that come spilling forth.

I dunno Freegurt... "sexisim" is a tricky beast in some ways and they might be going after the subject a little hard.

This for example, has a few problems:

But men are drawn unrealistically too!

This is probably the bingo point that causes the most fuss. When otherwise enlightened persons use the argument and are consequently informed of their gaffe, they tend to respond, baffled, “But I’m RIGHT! They ARE!”

Yes! You are right! Nowhere but in comics or other carefully controlled media does one find such stunning physical specimens of manhood. Comic book guys often have symmetrical features, are well- (often over-) muscled and are generally good looking.

However, you don’t find many of them striding along in bathing suits and high-heeled boots, wrenching their backs out as they hurl their hips around and thrust their tumescent, massive penises and firmly rounded butts at the reader.

Why? Because that would look ridiculous. So why isn’t it ridiculous when it’s done to female characters?

No one would deny that the average superhero team contains more attractive men than you would find walking down the street anywhere but Hollywood. But there is a substantial difference between the unrealistic portrayal of men and women that relies heavily on gendered stereotyping of what is attractive. Men must be strong! Women must be sexy!

So when you say “But men are drawn unrealistically too!”, the bingo player reads “Men are drawn to look strong and handsome, and that’s why you shouldn’t complain about Frank Miller objectifying Vicki Vale’s talking butt.”

This sort of thing depends on what the intended audience is going to be as well as what the artist preference is. When I've seen work of the same genre drawn by straight females and intended for a female audience, drawn by gay men and intended for a gay audience, drawn by straight men, for straight men, drawn by straight women and intended for everyone and so on- you see differences in who males and females are presented.

To lump all that sort of thing into "sexism " just indicates that someone might have issues with sexuality in general and is enjoying a bit of a McCarthy type witchhunt riff... "There! That's sexist too! And that, and that! And that over there hiding behind the bushes, I see you, I know your sexist secrets!"

I think the main problem is that these things are highly contextual- more so with comics than other media, since comics tend to have very narrow, focused audiences and tend to be created by small teams of people for those specific groups.

Even mainstream comics are still pretty narrowly focused with narrow audiences, which is why they have so many variations of characters and themes (so that each one can at least appeal to someone).
I wouldn't deny sexism in them (there certainly IS), but I wouldn't say that it is the the ruling trait behind all of those complaints- because it's a medium very much centred around the idea that "sex sells", which is one of the main reasons people read it, why people wish to become creators and why it even exists in the first place.
-Specifically things like superhero comics, which have always had that "safe" porn vibe since the very beginning.


Where it's more of an issue of course is when females are always victims for example, or they're subjugated as a matter of course- like with Superman spanking Lois Lane and female characters generally being treated like children- all that sort of thing is pretty much a mainstay of those early comics.

This is in reference to the silly excuses that are made whenever sexism in comics is made.

This isn't about how EVERY comic is sexist (because every comic isn't). But when comics ARE, it's when you pull out the bingo card and mark down all the scrambling to justify it.

I better modify the main post before I get a million other people jumping down my throat with your exact same reply.

Freegurt, awesome! I intend to play this bingo.
I cant abide sexism in comics. To me its a cancer on the web comic genre.
Its nice to see someone taking the piss out of it and exposing its stupidity.

harkovast
Freegurt, awesome! I intend to play this bingo.
I cant abide sexism in comics. To me its a cancer on the web comic genre.
Its nice to see someone taking the piss out of it and exposing its stupidity.

Shut up and jiggle those furry tits.

ozoneocean

harkovast
Freegurt, awesome! I intend to play this bingo.
I cant abide sexism in comics. To me its a cancer on the web comic genre.
Its nice to see someone taking the piss out of it and exposing its stupidity.

Shut up and jiggle those furry tits.

lol! lol! lol!

harkovast
Freegurt, awesome! I intend to play this bingo.
I cant abide sexism in comics. To me its a cancer on the web comic genre.
Its nice to see someone taking the piss out of it and exposing its stupidity.

I've played (and won) this bingo board so many times it's not even funny.

ozoneocean
Shut up and jiggle those furry tits.

Haaaa....haaaaa. I get it because it's a post about sexism and you reply with something a sexist person would say in a post about sexism and it's supposed to be funny because sexism is bad and you're replying with something sexist....haaaaa. See, it's not bad because you acknowledge that it's bad, so you're safe to say something like that and we're supposed to laugh because you're joking and it's totally not offensive in any way even though it is offensive but not in this case because you're joking. Haaa HA. SO. FUNNY.

Freegurt
I get it because it's...

Well, it's mainly that Hark is a man with no breasts and doesn't really like being called a furry. :)

The ironic sexism is more implicit.

-------------------

Haha, we should totally have a debate about sexism in the D&D section! ^_^
-not just in comics though but more generally.

Haaaa....haaaaa. I get it because it's a post about sexism and you reply with something a sexist person would say in a post about sexism and it's supposed to be funny because sexism is bad and you're replying with something sexist....haaaaa. See, it's not bad because you acknowledge that it's bad, so you're safe to say something like that and we're supposed to laugh because you're joking and it's totally not offensive in any way even though it is offensive but not in this case because you're joking. Haaa HA. SO. FUNNY.


Well,I tought it was funny :)
Not so much the content of the remark,but how it came so unexpected after all those serious posts.
I'm a girl and I have no problem with sexism,drawing women with huge breasts or female tokenism in comics.It's just sign of bad writing.And that usually means that sexism is least of the problem of a bad comic.

Freegurt were you intentionally trying to kill the joke? Cuz damn you're good.

Well, it's mainly that Hark is a man with no breasts

That's very sexist. Lots of American men have breasts.
I've always pictured Hark with hairy breasts.

Plague Doctor
Well,I tought it was funny :)
Not so much the content of the remark,but how it came so unexpected after all those serious posts.
I'm a girl and I have no problem with sexism,drawing women with huge breasts or female tokenism in comics.It's just sign of bad writing.And that usually means that sexism is least of the problem of a bad comic.

Because it's a serious topic!

And I don't care if you're a woman that thinks it's okay, because it doesn't make it okay!

ozoneocean
Haha, we should totally have a debate about sexism in the D&D section! ^_^

And I'll do just that (if one hasn't already been made) since it's not exactly appreciated here.

Freegurt, as much as I detest all sexism...ozones comment about furry boobs was clearly a joke and meant to be ironic. Just because I disaprove of sexism does not mean I cant see humour in mocking it with amusingly exaggerated examples.

Mlai- Englishmen can have hairy breasts too, you racist! It's not just Americans!

Ozone- *jiggle jigle* The things I do to try and get into the top ten!

Plague Doctor- Your a girl? Damn I wish people would use avatars that match their gender! I am in a state of total gender confusion!

Freegurt
Because it's a serious topic!

And I don't care if you're a woman that thinks it's okay, because it doesn't make it okay!

That ain't no way to talk to a lady!

sexism is an institution of the mainstream comic industry. mainly because a large portion of the fanbase would rather not grow up and subsequently admit their comic of choice has some pretty ugly aspects.

trust me, you'll never find a good argument as to why the sexism is still in comics, just like you wound find one for religion, government, fashion, or anything else. at least with comics there's always a good alternative title somewhere in the indie world.

harkovast
Plague Doctor- Your a girl? Damn I wish people would use avatars that match their gender! I am in a state of total gender confusion!

you've got a tabby behind a piece of armor, hark. the heck gender are we supposed to guess that is?

Orin- Is "talking cat" not considered a gender?

Whoa, wanting to stop sexism isn't just a feminist thing... Sexist... Lol.

It's everywhere nowadays, though. We're in the gloriously backward age of self-sexism. In which we all think:
"Hey, other guys/girls are supposed to like this stuff. So I have to watch it too otherwise there is something wrong with me." and we accept statements on live TV more suited to bawdy 60s sitcoms.
You keep getting TV gameshow hosts asking female contestants how many shoes they'll buy with the prize money when they haven't even mentioned an interest in shoes.
There was a show I saw the other day called "Manswers" in which it tried to answer whether straight girls, bi girls or lesbians put out more (It was bi girls. Straight girls put out least)to imply that guys want girls that give it out like sweets at a panto. You ask your average dude on the street and he'll usually not like a girl that's paired up with 100 guys and girls prior and lowering her value as a partner. It's even been mentioned in movies (Clerks anyone?). Also, he'll feel empty afterwards if he hasn't "earned" the right to sleep with her. It was overall giving out the message (even said it flat out) that if you don't like the stuff in the show, you're not a real man. Y'know what? It tells you stuff you can find on the internet with a lot more speed and more attractive women wearing even less clothing. Would you even BOTHER? It's basically somebody reading off cracked.com in an annoying voice with the worst shakycam ever. It made me seasick in a dining chair in my own living room.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that sexism is everywhere. Comics have it. But it's more noticeable because of the audience stereotype and the fact that comics barely get a readership outside of it. It has more people that dont like it or understand it compared to those that do.

It's even hard to say you DRAW comics without somebody thinking you obsess over collecting pristine copies of the first issues of Batman that you'll never read.
Comics have the same image problem that plagued videogames for over two decades. But it can't be as easily fixed. There is no comic equivalent to the Wii or DS. The nearest possible affect is when a movie is released that gets people interested in the original material.

My dad is a grade A geek and proud of it. But he's never understood comics.
He likes the Big Bang Theory because he can relate to some of the characters and situations as well as the humour, but that whole episode with Stan Lee just puzzled him. I had to explain to him who he was. And I don't even read that stuff because I find it too hard and costly to follow.
I started getting 2000AD for a short time.I still have the issue for the artwork but I got fed up because I couldn't go and buy it every week and out of about 4 storylines only ONE would start with that issue. And it still wouldn't finish in the same issue and wasn't delivered in a way in which you could understand without it. It would take you getting another copy every week for four weeks to see a conclusion. I could've started smoking and spent less cash overall.
My dad was pretty pissed when I showed him them and said how much they cost per issue. It's not hard to see why people don't bother at all. But I still think they're missing out on the gems by dismissing everything.

As you can tell, sexism isn't as big an issue in comics for me. I got bigger fish to fry.

My dad is a grade A geek and proud of it. But he's never understood comics.

Then he's not a geek.

Being an astrophysics aficionado doesn't make you a geek; it just makes you educated. Maybe he also takes judo/boxing/karate and plays drums/guitar, besides reading about black holes.

Being a geek means you have to do/like geeky topics. Like comics, hardcore video games, Magic/AD&D type games, cosplay, stuff like that.

If he doesn't even know who Stan Lee is, I have a hard time seeing him as a geek.

I thought geek was someone who's really into a certain activity exclusively (band, electronics, youtube, etc) and a nerd was someone who liked a plethora of nerdy activities (comics, vidya, tabletop games).

Anyways it's nice to see there are guys in this thread who are bothered by sexism in comics and not just girls. A lot of guys seem to believe if it's not blatant 'bitches and whores' dialog it's not sexism, when in actuality most sexism is subtle.

To me it's not the design of the character but the writing that gets to me. Bakuman is a good example, we have a huge competent male cast and 4 female main characters. The first is 'ideal'; she is quiet, meek, virginal, and would fit into the servitude housewife role for our virgin hero perfectly. The second is loud, seen as annoying by fans, and her screentime in panels is her cleaning while the boys discuss. The third started off irate and snobby until she was 'tamed' by her male colleage and became meek/quiet/'perfect'.
And the fourth is the now villainess who constantly seeks male validation and killed the series for me with how horribly she was written.

I brought up bakuman since when you ask there's a clear split between people saying 'i don't see it' and people who see it staring them in the face. It's subtle, but it's there.

I always thought that to be a nerd you had to be (school-)smart first. Ah well, those 2 words are kinda interchangeable.

Anyways, and that's why the excuse "Then go read manga" does not work. (A lot of) manga is every bit as sexist as comics, just in an alternative culture-specific way.

The battle against sexism is a losing one. It's just easier for the writers to create the same 4 types of characters as their ladies. I'm not saying this is viable as an excuse, it's just part of the formula.




@Skullbie those Bakuman characters are really bland.

If everything is sexist how can you tell when something isn't sexist?

You can see it everywhere even with furry sexual stereotypes. Cats=females, dog=male, rabbits=nymphos, lizards=nonsexual or perverted etc

The excuses do wear thin and sometimes you gotta say it's sexist because that's the way it's supposed to be. Then there's blanket excuse for anything offensive: it's SATIRE and PARODY so it's making fun of what offends us and what we consider racist and sexist so it's okay to be sexist and racist and offensive.

And I'm not condemning that excuse because it's the only one I got left.

My dad is a smart dude but he's a sci fi geek. Can't stand elves and wizards but likes people talking about reversing the polarity of neutron flows and human looking aliens with pointy ears getting beamed around the universe.

I think I've already mentioned that some of my speculated names when my mum was pregnant were Kirk and Luke.

Anyway, do you think we should merge this thread with the other one or are they separate enough to be kept apart?

Oh I see a SW/ST fan. I'm surprised that a SW/ST fan of your dad's age doesn't know who Stan Lee is.

Simply by exposure to usual circles of friends who also like SW/ST, some icons of comics-dom should have been mentioned on the side.

On Topic: And ofc Star Wars and Star Trek are both ridiculously sexist.

Bravo- Whoa there!
Don't got stereotyping us furries as sexist! You will notice the macho male CAT in a suit of armour I have for my avatar!
If there is a sexist trend relating to animal choices, I did not get the memo.
But I am glad to learn I am inadvertantly fighting sexism and not even realising.

(And yes, I've come to terms with being considered a furry for drawing talking animals, no use fighting it!)

I think I stumbled with this chart a couple of years ago, during "Shaman Quest" writing process. I actually found it very useful from a writing stand point.

I actually found a lot of interesting articles about the subject of sexism on geek culture in general (comics, sci-fi, fantasy) linked to the chart.

Personally, certain graphical representations of women on the comic media (aka Fanservice) doesn't bother me as much as the horrid writting and characterization that sometimes can be seen.

I mean, you want to dress your female characters as sluts? fine, but at least give them a solid development, actual personality and enough deep. You know, being a proper character inseat of just a mere fanservice device!

I'm all for having sexy girls in very flattering outfits (anybody who has read my comic knows that), but also I'm all for pair them with some interesting personality traits beyond the amazing face or the perfect breasts.

I have no problem with erotic elements (or even erotic stories) if they have actual plot.

And no, rape doesn't equal proper character development. SO STOP USING IT!!!

I HATE how a lot of authors use rape as a cheap drama device. It doesn't make your story "edgy and deep", it doesn't make you "aware of social issues", most of the times, it will make you look like some insensitive prick!

And people then wonder if us geeks have ever actually talked to real women.

PS: I HATE THE NEW WONDER WOMAN COSTUME AS MUCH AS I HATED THE SUPERMAN BLUE/RED COSTUME OR THE AZRAEL'S BATMAN COSTUME!!! I DON'T GIVE A SHIT IF IT'S MORE "POLITICALLY CORRECT" OR "MORE PRACTICAL", IT DOESN'T FIT WONDER WOMEN AT ALL!!!

PPS: However, except for the rape thing, nothing of the above mentioned is appliable if you came out and state clearly that you are making porn. Erotic elements on stories is not the same as porn.

I don't have a problem with Wonder Woman (and superheroes in general) changing looks. It's true: no sane woman would be caught wearing the exact same thing in public for 60-70 years. Even uniforms change over time. It's not as if she wears a mask and needs the same costume all the time for the citizenry to recognize who she is.

Besides, with the retcon (which I consider stupid in general) it makes more sense that her costume looks like contemporary urban fashion rather than some Greco-Roman gladiator outfit.

harkovast
Bravo- Whoa there!
Don't got stereotyping us furries as sexist! You will notice the macho male CAT in a suit of armour I have for my avatar!
If there is a sexist trend relating to animal choices, I did not get the memo.
But I am glad to learn I am inadvertantly fighting sexism and not even realising.

Having known lots of hard-core furries I'll see what I can do about forwarding the memo ;) but I have to warn you it's silly. Seriously though you are doing a magnificent job of fighting furry sexism with your comic and challenging the preconceptions people have about furries.

As for your avatar, he is a beefy orange tabby. Beefy orange tabbies are always males.



You put a suit of armor on him and added a healthy dose of Falstaff. ;) Pure genius.

But then I can argue that the satire in my comic is fighting sexism. Not well or very convincingly but I could if I decided to do a real intentions behind the movie within the cultural subtext of the auteur... nah...

Bravo: I am nothing like Garfield, I dont know why poeple keep saying that!
That accusation was so offensive I spat out my lasagna in disgust!
Seriously, hearing people call me that is worse than a dozen mondays, or worse then when people say I sound liek Bill Murry!

The good news from your post was that you seemed to indicate you have read my comic (always a win!)

My dad is very into both Stars. But not to the level of collecting memorabillia and following the ST series past the original. Althought he has admitted to writing fanfiction in the past. He even said he used to play DND. IN more recent days he took a massive interest in the newer series of V and Caprica and he had to explain stuff to ME about it.

Interestingly, despite his knowlege of western comics, he found out by himself about Osamu Tezuka, Cosplay, Otaku Culture, Manga and other things. And even labeled some of my early artworks when I was 12 and experimenting as looking like Manga before I even knew what it meant. Even though he's most likely not read any.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand... Again...

My sister was ranting and raving at the DOOM movie yesterday about how come there are no plain looking women scientists in sci-fi movies. It is puzzling, though. I can't think of a single one anywhere in any medium from the top of my head. Any examples would be helpful.

I always thought Sigourney Weaver is pretty plain-looking. But then, her job is space trucker, not scientist.

Actually, off the top of my head I can't think of any sci-fi women scientists, period. Care to offer some examples?