Often we web comic creators wonder about money, as in "boy, it would be nice to get paid SOMETHING for the art we create."

There was an interesting but short discussion over at ScottMccloud.com about micropayments and comics.
http://scottmccloud.com/2009/10/08/landing-on-a-dime/

This got me thinking....
What would you charge? Would you sell access to the 2nd half of each chapter of your story for 10 cents? Would you sell a 10 hour access to your archives for 25 cents?

Websites can not only offer micropayments, but also micro-subscriptions.
Would you do a 25 cents a month subscription to your site?
If you had 20 subscribers at 25 cents a month, minus the iCents's 10%, you would make a whole $4.5 a month!
Wouldn't it suck if nobody wanted to subscribe to your comic!, even at 25 cents! Given that everyone on the internet expects everything to be free, would it even catch on?
http://www.icents.net/ [icents.net]
Your thoughts?

I think this could work for donation wallpapers, just click on the thumbnail and that thing would pop up, that would be nice. For archives and links to articles? No way in fact that kinda disgusts me.

Really as much as i'd like to make some money from my comics I pay 60$ a month for internet because of my area, so yeah i expect a fairly free internet to roam. If i saw 'pay 10 cents noaw to see this for 10 hours' everywhere i'd liken it to the internet getting herpes (irritating, pops up where you least want it, spreads fast, etc)

I never heard it defined that way. "I expect the content to be free because I pay too much for access."

I just paid $60 buck a month to get through the front door of the book store and now you expect me to pay extra to read each book?

freefall_drift
I never heard it defined that way. "I expect the content to be free because I pay too much for access."

I just paid $60 buck a month to get through the front door of the book store and now you expect me to pay extra to read each book?

Basically. Except you don't pay extra for each book, you pay extra for an hour or two to stay in the bookstore, whether you're reading or not. Want to stay longer than that? Then you have to pay more money.

The nature of the internet makes it impossible to charge for such things. Why should anyone pay to read a comic online when they can find another, possibly even better one, to read for free? Hell, even if they really do want to read your comic, what's stopping them from downloading it? It would be impossible to protect an online comic from piracy.

Besides, webcomics are a labour of love. I know that sounds cliche, but that's only because it's just so true. The fact that the people drawing this stuff are actually losing money is part of what makes the good webcomics so good. Anyone who's obviously just trying to make money will crash and burn pretty much instantly. Introducing the ability to make webcomics an exploitable medium will just turn them into even more of a dross factory.

Also kind of off topic, but offering ten hours is really sneaky. No one is actually going to read through your archives for ten hours, and chances are that it isn't even that long, and you can't argue that you could read a bit and come back to it, because ten hours isn't long enough to allow that. But ten hours looks like a bargain at twenty five cents, so that way you can sucker more money out of people.

Custard Trout
Besides, webcomics are a labour of love. I know that sounds cliche, but that's only because it's just so true. The fact that the people drawing this stuff are actually losing money is part of what makes the good webcomics so good. Anyone who's obviously just trying to make money will crash and burn pretty much instantly. Introducing the ability to make webcomics an exploitable medium will just turn them into even more of a dross factory.

That is bull****. There is nothing nobel about being a good but broke artist. I would like to tell good stories AND get paid. Your logic seems be that if I pay your my comic, then it will automatically turn to crap. There is so much wrong with that logic.
Only people who are broke or have day jobs will tell good stories?
The artists at marvel and DC are producing bad art and stories solely because they are getting paid for it? No writer anywhere is telling a good story, once he gets paid to do it?

If we could make mortgage, food and heath care doing this, you would have more people, doing it, not less.
You go surfing the comic spaces and you read dead stub after dead stub of comics that had to quit because the artist needed a paying job.

freefall_drift
That is bull****. There is nothing nobel about being a good but broke artist. I would like to tell good stories AND get paid. Your logic seems be that if I pay your my comic, then it will automatically turn to crap. There is so much wrong with that logic.
Only people who are broke or have day jobs will tell good stories?
The artists at marvel and DC are producing bad art and stories solely because they are getting paid for it? No writer anywhere is telling a good story, once he gets paid to do it?

If we could make mortgage, food and heath care doing this, you would have more people, doing it, not less.
You go surfing the comic spaces and you read dead stub after dead stub of comics that had to quit because the artist needed a paying job.

Congratulations, it must have taken considerable effort to misinterpret what I said that much.

My point was that webcomics put up with less fucking about and red tape and general buggery, someone just sat down, picked up a pen, and decided to make the best comic they damn well could. Not for money, not for acclaim, but because they wanted to. Anyone can put a comic on the internet, completely unedited or uncensored. This is both the webcomics greatest strength and it's most crippling weakness.

The result is that the worst webcomics are so much worse than the worst print comics. It also means that the best webcomics are leagues ahead of the best print comics.

A situation in which webcomic writers are getting paid would ruin this trade off. There'd no longer be motivation to create for the sake of creation. The exact problems with print companies would emerge and mix with the many problems webcomics already have. You'd be paying to see the much worse, the leagues ahead would vanish into obscurity, and mediocre but profitable crap would dominate the medium.

Is it really worth destroying everything good about webcomics so that some guy who underestimated his need for such trivial things as food and sleep can have his crappy comic cluttering up the web?

It seems counterproductive. People do not want to pay a single cent for anything on the internet, because so much is free (either ethically or unethically). If you try to charge a single cent, you do not earn much in return, but you will lose a huge portion of your readership.

The same readership who might have bought merchandise from you, or boosted your Project Wonderful earnings, will now be turned away by your attempt to grab a dime.

Someone
If you try to charge a single cent, you do not earn much in return, but you will lose a huge portion of your readership.

So? The ones that don't continue to read are only there because it's free, then.

I can see if I was selling merchandise or google ads or whatever, that micropayments are a bad idea.

If they would be turned away because I wanted to EARN a dime, then my story was not compelling enough to be worth even a dime.

I willingly paid for the Byrne Xmen, and McCloud's Zot! and Legion of Superheroes. If I thought I was getting quality and enjoyment for my money, I'd shell out money to read online comics. It would have to be less, after all, it's just a one time read. When I paid $2 for a comic, I had the tangible comic. For 15 cents, I'd read chapter two of webcomic X, knowing when I closed the browser, it would be gone. There are some comics here on DrunkDuck and on the internet that are good enough for that.

Those are established professional authors though, they don't have the same risk as seeing 2-3 page preview of this dudes archives only to find out it's bait and switch trash after you pay your 10-50c for the archive.

And what about younger kids that can't borrow moms credit card, students that don't have a credit card, and people who have been using the dime archive system and are over what they're willing to spend? (seriously 10-50c a couple times a day for over a month adds up like crazy) There are other factors to your readers.

Mlai is totally right about the fan issue though, a lot of people have respect for the truly great webcomics for being free. That builds loyalty knowing the author cares enough about the work and fans to offer it for free, not string some dime out of them. Honestly if money is your aim you need to seek a more professional level of the medium where you're getting paid to work, because you can work minimum wage at mcdonalds and probably make more in an hour then your cent archive could bring in for half a month.

There are billions of free comics on the internet, why would I pay to read one?
I think this scheme is just going to repel readers.

I can't speak for others but I can reiterate what mlai said a bit.
A number of people on DD have made profit from me. I'll read their comic for a good while and get to know the author. If the comic is of a certain level and the author seems nice I'll generally buy their book when it comes out. Not only to have the book but as a show of support.

If I had to pay to read their comic on the net I wouldn't. That means I woul not learn that I like the comic. I sure wouldn't have followed the comic and talked with the author for months either.

This is only something you may be able to do if you get a huge HUGE following. And just have one of the most epic comics on the net with story, art, and color.

What you should do is trick people! Let them read the entire archive and they have to unlock the last chapter of the story by buying it to read the finale! XD

Man, that would be totally evil ^^ (not to mention a lot of people wouldn't read the finale, or would buy the finale so they could steal the pages and post them for free to spite you :P)

I agree with mlai. I think it would not only be better received but also more profitable to use advertising and merchandising if you want to make money with webcomics. I don't necessarily think getting paid for one's work cheapens it somehow, but people simply won't pay, regardless of the amount. Others might pay, download all the images, and upload them somewhere to spite you. I just don't see it as a viable angle -- or at least not one that has the best potential. Advertising can make more money, imo, and your readership amounts to currency in that respect. Putting up toll gates would drive the readership and advertising/merchandising profit down.

People who have money to spend are more likely to buy print volumes or even make a donation if you place a donation button on your site than they are to drop even a single dime to get into the archives. The people who don't want to pay to browse are not less valuable readers either. They could be the same people who would buy merchandise or even make a donation -- and more viewers always equal higher potential advertising profits even if they spend no money themselves.

It's not that your comic isn't "worth" it nor does it somehow cheapen your work to be paid for it, it's just internet browsing mentality.

I see your point however I did think of different analogy on....

I paid $60 buck a month to get through the front door of the book store and now you expect me to pay extra to read each book?

I pay $5 a month for the electricity to run my refrigerator and now you expect me to pay for the food inside it?

usedbooks
It's not that your comic isn't "worth" it nor does it somehow cheapen your work to be paid for it, it's just internet browsing mentality.

I get that. Heck, I am that person most of the time.

I wouldn't pay full price online for the same print comic I could buy in print. I don't have a tangible thing that I own. But I might pay 25 cents to read it online, if it was good enough and easy enough.

I see your point about a funding model where you buy the tangible book after you read it.

freefall_drift
I see your point however I did think of different analogy on....

I paid $60 buck a month to get through the front door of the book store and now you expect me to pay extra to read each book?

I pay $5 a month for the electricity to run my refrigerator and now you expect me to pay for the food inside it?

But in fact, you actually DID pay for the food inside it...think about it!

I cant imagine I would pay for a web comic.
The internet is full of free stuff, if a site demanded I pay I would go to another site.

You cna give it a try and I hope you make a lot of money etc.
There is nothing dishonourable about making money for your work (despite what some here seem to think, being poor is not a noble goal!) I just question whether this approach would succeed.

To find good comics I have to go through hundreds of bad ones, if I had to pay for all the bad ones, I just wouldn't bother.

That was my point. I was trying to make an analogy between the internet and the fridge.

We don't demand the food in the fridge to be free, even though we pay monthly for the electricity to run the fridge. We pay for every apple or piece of pizza or jug of milk in there. And we pay every time we consume it. (I know,I know, farmers blow the analogy, work with me here.)

Yet with the internet, where you pay for access (like you pay for the fridge), you expect and almost demand the content consumed to be free, unlike food?

Is it because food is "real" and the stuff on the internet is "virtual"?

The reader always has the right to say no, they don't want to pay. I don't subscribe to the marvel site, I don't think it's worth my money right now. And the artist has a right to withhold access if the reader doesn't agree to the terms.

I am surprised at the outrage and indignation that an artist would consider asking for some sort of, even token, compensation for the work they do.

A better equivalent to the inter net is television.
Once you buy your television, you can watch it as much as you want.
Shows have to be very confident of having an audience if they want to try to be pay per view!
Even in britain where we pay a license fee, that is still a yearly thing paid one time for all the channels, not something we pay per show.

I just cant see why someone would pay for a comic when other comics are free.You would have to convince them that your comic is literally the best thing ever, not an easy task!

harkovast
You would have to convince them that your comic is literally the best thing ever, not an easy task!

I agree. The hassle and the cost of any sort are a high barrier. That's why I was wondering if a cost of say ....10 cents would work?

harkovast
A better equivalent to the internet is television. Once you buy your television, you can watch it as much as you want.

Yes, but remember what this TV executive said.....
"Your contract with the network when you get the show is you're going to watch the spots. Otherwise you couldn't get the show on an ad-supported basis. Any time you skip a commercial ... you're actually stealing the programming."
When asked if he considers people who go to the bathroom during a commercial to be thieves, he responded: "I guess there's a certain amount of tolerance for going to the bathroom."

harkovast
Shows have to be very confident of having an audience if they want to try to be pay per view!

Not exactly true, at least on Showtime. They do programming that doesn't appeal to a mass audience. Queer as Folk, Weeds, Dexter, Big Love. They are more a niche audience.

Freefall Drift, I dont think people are going to pay 10 cents to read a web comic.
I think people will just go elsewhere and you will alienate a potential audience.
You would probably be better served trying to build an audience before working out how to get money from em.

I can honestly say if a comci asked for my credit card and a ten cent payment I wouldn't bother.
A large part of that wouldbe because I simply couldn't be bothered to go to the bother of clicking the things and entering my password to make the payment.
But also the imposition of having to pay for something I normally get for free just puts my back up.
And ten cents per comic adds up!
I look at a lot of comics on DD and a lot are not very good, ifit cost be 10cents a go I would start eating holes in my wallet, especially if I wanted to go back the next day (ie, more then ten hours later) I would feel irritated havingto pay again, especially if i just wanted to check some minor detail or something.

Okay look at it this way...if I told you that you could read Harkovast for ten cents, would you want to come and read it? I can honestly say I think Harkovast is well worth 10 cents per viewing (in my opinion it is awesome, worth far more then that!)...so wanna make a donation?

Frankly, I struggle to find readers with my comic when it is FREE!

freefall_drift
That was my point. I was trying to make an analogy between the internet and the fridge.

We don't demand the food in the fridge to be free, even though we pay monthly for the electricity to run the fridge. We pay for every apple or piece of pizza or jug of milk in there. And we pay every time we consume it. (I know,I know, farmers blow the analogy, work with me here.)

Yet with the internet, where you pay for access (like you pay for the fridge), you expect and almost demand the content consumed to be free, unlike food?

Is it because food is "real" and the stuff on the internet is "virtual"?

The reader always has the right to say no, they don't want to pay. I don't subscribe to the marvel site, I don't think it's worth my money right now. And the artist has a right to withhold access if the reader doesn't agree to the terms.

I am surprised at the outrage and indignation that an artist would consider asking for some sort of, even token, compensation for the work they do.

It's because we have to eat food.

Certainly, an artist has a right to withhold without compensation; I just don't think you'll find much success, if you do. Would you rather have 30 cents or 300 readers?

If you have a large enough fan base, again you can merchandise or sell ad-space.

I LOVE American Elf. I always buy print copies. I would wear an American Elf t-shirt or buy something as silly as a James Kolchaka keyring. However as awesome as the site is, I'm not going to add it to my monthly bills. He has a huge fan base and every right to ask folks to subscribe. I hope a lot of people do. There are comics on DD that I think are pro-quality awesome but there's not a one I would pay again and again to view.

You can setup merchandising and advertising in a way that's free to you and also gives people who want to follow your work a choice.

Micropayments are better in theory.

I don't know. I personally think everyone should be thrilled to pay me $100 a page to look at my comic. I mean... it's my comic of all things! XD

The best thing I could think of is to join a members only site that charges people to look at comics. That seems a better approach. Either they split the cash or give more cash to the comics that get read the most on that site.

I think your better off trying something like this with bonus content.

Maybe a side story that is not integral to your comic, but is a neat little addition that people can pay to read if they choose.

I'm kind of doing something like this with my comic for a comic con I'm doing in a couple weeks.

I created a stand alone 8 page original story that is part of the canon, but not essential. I had it printed and plan on selling it as an ashcan prologue type comic at the convention. It is a good intro to my comic for people who haven't read my comic to jump on. And it's also a neat little bonus story for my regular readers who want a neat little bonus.

Now, I don't know how well it will go over, but sometimes you need to take a risk. :)

zaymac
I think your better off trying something like this with bonus content.

Maybe a side story that is not integral to your comic, but is a neat little addition that people can pay to read if they choose.

I'm kind of doing something like this with my comic for a comic con I'm doing in a couple weeks.

I created a stand alone 8 page original story that is part of the canon, but not essential. I had it printed and plan on selling it as an ashcan prologue type comic at the convention. It is a good intro to my comic for people who haven't read my comic to jump on. And it's also a neat little bonus story for my regular readers who want a neat little bonus.

Now, I don't know how well it will go over, but sometimes you need to take a risk. :)

I think this is a really good idea. If anyone read the Surrealist, I would sell stand alone print stories but still keep the webcomic regular with updates of the central story-line.

My priority is to get a huge fan base and THEN work out how to make money from this fact!

harkovast
My priority is to get a huge fan base and THEN work out how to make money from this fact!

The thing is Hark, you don't need a HUGE fanbase to make some money (I'm not talking enough to live on here, but just a supplemental amount. You just need a good sized supportive fanbase that loves your comic, and wants to support it. It's referred to in the book "How to make webcomics" as the "Superfan".

They are the fans that think everything you do is gold. I don't know if I have any of those, but I want some. I want some Superfans of my very own. :)

They rock, they'll also stick around years after you stopped updating your comic and make you feel like a monster for denying their pure sincerity of wanting to see another page.

Easiest way to get them is fetish niches or target younger teens.

Frankly, I don't think micro payments are that big a deal. If I were going to set it up on my archives though, I'd make available a good chunk of the beginning to get people interested and it would work as a sample. You could charge after page 50 or so. Also, use some common sense. If your archive is HUGE, keep the price low, or start charging a later pages. I also think it would work better if it "unlocked" pages permanently and they bought them in installments of pages, rather than an temporary unlocking. Like .10 gets you 150 pages. Even at 600 pages, that's, what? .40 cents? Worth it. And frankly, I don't often buy comics when authors start selling them. I've already read them online and since most people don't advertise what their new content might be, I don't really get interested in it. I would feel like I'm still somehow contributing, without shelling out $15-20 for the book.

It seems like tipping. People have vastly different opinions on tipping. The fact is, most people don't feel like they should have to tip. Some people are really indignant when restaurants tack a tip onto the bill automatically (generally when you have a party of 8+.) It still generally 5-10% less than what you should be giving them, but people will still whine and moan about it. Never mind the fact that the poor waiter doesn't even get minimum wage, aren't legally required to have a brake like the rest of us, and catches nothing, but crap all day from customers who want what they want, when they want it. I have a waiter friend has gotten $0 checks because of taxes and fees they pull out.

I try to respect people's time and I am a big believer in people getting what they deserve. If you enjoy something, show your support of it. Yeah, there are a lot of free comics out there, but you get what you pay for in most cases and in the rare ones, the authors are generally sadly strapped for cash or time and the work does suffer, if not in story or art, then in the update schedule.

And darn it, pen tablets aren't cheap. :.;

It seems like we expect a lot for free. We want our artists to work on those pages for 8+ hours and update daily damn it! For free! Screw your real jobs, I want to see the blood of your hobby work only towards my profit and pleasure! lol

The Xylia Tales author doesn't charge for her pages, but she does do a TON of download incentives that include anything from the uber cute pics of her chars to nude pinups for adults. Merchandise goes towards her donations as well. Also, every time the donation meter reaches $200, she updates a second time the next week. Its seems to be pretty rare that she doesn't have to update twice. Its a nice little system.

Zaymac, I wonder if I have any super fans? I think I will still wait a bit until I start making T-shirts (unless everyone starts asking for em.... it could happen!)

I just wouldn't want to make a ton of mechandise and not sell it. That would not only cost money but make me feel bad about myself.

Being honest, I jsut cant see myself wanting to pay for a webcomic. If I had mroe money I can see myself donating or buying merchandise, but paying to actually look at it? I just dont think I would do that, whether the amount charged is reasonable or not.

But I have nothing agaisnt others who want to do that and I wish them nothing but success in promoting their comic that way.

I'd buy merchandise, donate or preferably buy the printed edition instead... assuming I had money that is. No micropayments for me.

Seriously, there's enough methods for webcomic artists to potentially make money already. There's ways to produce merchandise with next to no cost, and donation-for-wallpaper or donation-for-artwork is a tried and true method that alot of major, well known webcomics employ. Charging money for access to your webcomic borders on arrogant, though--like there's not other webcomics out there, equal to or possibly better than your own that aren't absolutely free.

I can see it being alright for access to websites that host multiple webcomics, since those sites in question are doing a service and have a substantial fee to pay for it. I think Slipshine does this--offers previews of their numerous comics, but charge for full access. For a single comic, though? No, I can't imagine a single webcomic good enough for me to pay for it. I've got enough absolutely wonderful webcomics to read that don't demand my money first.

And from the authoring stand point, I don't think my comics are good enough for people to pay me for them. Not by a long shot, and I'm not going to pretend they are. Like I said, I know comics infinitely better than mine that are totally free. I'm not going to act like I deserve money for the crap I do. If people want funny T-shirts from me--or want to encourage me with a couple of bucks now and then--then sure, I'll offer them that opportunity. I'm not going to demand money for something that's not professional quality, though, and I'm not a professional by any stretch of the imagination.

As much as I'd love to get paid for doing comics, microtransactions just sound vile to me.