Japanification/Japanization

Okay, I have seen this topic pop up in a lot of the forum posts lately, and some people are getting a little heated. So I am putting it up for debate.


Topics to Discuss:
How do you feel about Japanification/Japanization?
Do you believe it a good or bad thing?
Can it even be called Manga since it is not authentically from Japan?
Are the use of Japanese names, titles, and sound effects effective in webcomics?
What are the positive or negative aspects of this comic phenomenon?
Anything else that you have to say about the topic.

Play nice people...I don't want this shut down.




My feelings on the topic.
How do you feel about Japanification/Japanization? Do you believe it a good or bad thing?

So many people have been complaining about manga, webmanga, manga-fusion and whatever other term that you would like to use for the manga-like comics that are popping up all over the web. Though I personally think that the emulation of actual authentic manga by webcomic artists can be a little over the top...I also find it funny that some of the biggest complainers have such obvious elements of manga within their webcomics.

I believe that within reason, japanification can be a positive thing. (Two of my reasons...I know I have more, but these are my current staples-o-positiveness)

1. It shook up the webcomic community and even though not all are manga...I think that there are a significant amount of new graphic novels out there. Web-GN's (graphic novels) in the past couple of years have become more plentiful. It gave people yet another option and I've seen some really nice elements of manga in some people's work.

2. I think that it has brought more women into the webcomic community. And there is nothing wrong with that. It just means that there are more readers out there that are looking at other's hard work. It bridged a gap that had been left unfilled for awhile (yay GIGCAST with lea hernandez...it was like a lightbulb above my head). I'm one of those people. I liked comics as a kid, but it wasn't until I started reading manga and looking for webmanga that I got into webcomics...and I didn't do webmanga first, I did strips. JATM, Sockpuppetbob...those aren't manga, but I attribute my presence now to manga and japanification.




Can it even be called Manga since it is not authentically from Japan? Are the use of Japanese names, titles, and sound effects effective in webcomics?

I feel that people should be able to call their comic whatever they like. It will appeal to the crowd that they want to draw in. If I had my way I'd never have to see PENIS as a title again(no offense Marine, I like your work, just not your title...you're just an easy example and a forum whore so I know you'll read this :wink: ). But you don't see me berating Marine, I know that its titled that way to get people's attention. I think that those that like webmanga will be immediately drawn to those Japanese titles and know that it is what they are looking for. And most otaku own a japan dictionary and will look up sound effects, so it may be annoying to you, but its educational to other people.

As for the question about it being called manga...I think that it can. Manga stopped being a solely japanese authentic product when Japan started selling it to us. They liscensed it to non-Japanese speaking audiences, they didn't change its name...therefore, I believe it just became another genre of comics. Its like arguing about what's a true strip comic...maybe those only exist in the newspapers. I don't believe that they only exist in papers, but it could be someone's arguement. I do like the idea of calling it manga-fusion or manga OEL (Original English Language) to distinguish it, but if someone wants to call their work manga, let them. Its a product of the Japanese whoring their comics on us, so they can live with us stealing that name. And does anyone have a better name for these japanized comics? I don't know what else to call them.




OKAY....DISCUSS!

equinox
No, it is a product of otaku trying to be japanese. Manga = COMICS! Call them Western manga if you HAVE to call them something.

The problem here is not an attack on manga. It's when people do stupid shit like writing thier pages backwards and using japanese sound effects. The english language was developed to be read left to right, so making your pages backwards makes them hard to read. We tolerate this on normal manga because that is how the japanese read things. It serves no purpose in an english comic.

I have to go to work, so I don't have time to comment on all of the things you said (I apologize...I want to, but no time) so I'll comment on this, because it is something that I feel strongly about.

Yes, manga translates to the word comics, but the style that comes from Japan is distinct and recognizable. It is true that manga is a comic. It is also true that a sprite comic is a comic...but I like having that distinction. I can't just call all sprite comics JUST comics. There is a specific genre there and I want to be able to label it. If we don't label the genre from Japan "manga", what are we going to call it? There are stupid little labels for all the genres of comics...we need to be able to specify what we are talking about at least...therefore, its MANGA.

equinox

thatreevesgirl
It is also true that a sprite comic is a comic...but I like having that distinction. I can't just call all sprite comics JUST comics.

There is one small difference. Sprite comics are infamous for being shitty and poorly made. We need to differentiate them because the majority suck ass.

Wow, that's a really good point. But going with your point...you are hating on the manga-wannabe's so wouldn't we wanna do the same thing in order to distinguish them? HUH? :-D

(on a side note...Damn you equinox for entagling me in interesting debate...I haven't forced my butt out of my computer chair to go to work yet)

Quick question before I leave...why isn't this debate?? That's why I put it in the debate thread...so we could argue. I didn't think we could argue in the other threads, because I would have just kept arguing in the other thread.
Now I feel silly because there are two threads of the same thing.

(and don't worry, I'm not late equinox...I just won't eat before I leave :) )

Two reasons: Firstly the debate forum is generally for non-comic related discussion, as we HAVE a comic forum (yes I know, the sprite comic thing. but I locked that so nyeer). Secondly, we don't need threads in separate forums discussing the same thing. Someone can merge the threads if they want. I no longer am in a designated power area.

Yes, manga translates to the word comics, but the style that comes from Japan is distinct and recognizable.

Actually, "manga" has a broader definition in Japanese than simply comics. It translates more closely to "cartoon" than comics and can at times also be used to refer to animation as well as Japanese comics and older forms of sequential art.

I would also like to point out that even among just comics made in Japan, manga does not denote any particular style. While mainstream manga tend to conform to genre standards, underground artists and artists who aim for older age groups tend to stray from what we consider to be "manga style." Yet to both the Japanese and the Americans, their work is still considered manga. You will also find that there is little which ties the genres of manga together stylistically.

.: isukun :.

Dosen't manga litterally translate to: Random Drawings?

that was what I was lead to believe.

Mimarin
Dosen't manga litterally translate to: Random Drawings?

that was what I was lead to believe.

I think like most words in the japanease language, attempts to translate it have clouded the truth because there IS no western equivilant.

I think these rifts forming in the webcomic community are becoming steadily more rediculous. Everyone is becoming obsessed with putting comics into catagorys, it has to be Manga, Sprite, American style. What's wrong with borrowing the elements you need from a genre and leaving the ones you don't?

Titch
I think like most words in the japanease language, attempts to translate it have clouded the truth because there IS no western equivilant.?

After looking up the history of the word Manga the most reasonable translation is indeed "random drawings" but litterally it just refers to comics.

Titch
What's wrong with borrowing the elements you need from a genre and leaving the ones you don't?

Because that isnt what we are talking about, the complaints we have are when people take elements they don't need and that don't add depth or quality and use them in place of the logical choice, IE english read right to left, japanese SFX, use of honourifics for no reason and replacing words seemingly at random with japanese despite there being direct and accurate translations.

When people use a manga art style it's fine, when their stroy draws from manga influences then fine, but when people do the above things it is just stupid, and the fact loads of people do it means it isnt even origional, it just removes any sense of individuality or origonality that the comic may have previously had.

My biggest problem with webmanga isn’t that it’s done by non-Japanese artists or that it’s labeled wrong. My big problem is an overwhelming lack of originality in most that I’ve personally come across. It’s not unusual for artists of any genre to borrow elements from artists that have influenced them, but there are few manga artist’s styles that will stand out to the casual reader. If there is no spark that stands out about there artwork, I know I am less apt to read it.

The same is true of the writing styles. There are many manga cliché’s that I find start to grate. Every character having crazy names that I’ll never be able to remember from panel to panel are a start. If your character is American, it’s ok to name them Bob instead of Hatashi-San. (example pulled out of my… well you know)

Plot lines and conversational styles are also key.
If your story is about high school student X who has other students A-H in love with them (usually for no apparent reason), then you might want to think about throwing in some other elements to keep it interesting.
Dialogue is another big one. Your characters need to sound believable even if they are cat people in space fighting vampires. Characters that unnecessarily use a lot of manga speak are just going to confuse any reader who isn’t a hard core manga fan to begin with. I know personally I also find it distracting from a comic. You really don’t want to throw in things that pull people out of your story.

I will also have to agree with the left to right vs. right to left thing. People are willing to put up with it being backwards if the original was in another language and it’s been translated, but they are much less patient when you, by choice, made it difficult to read.

Well that’s my 2 cents on the issue.

My biggest problem with webmanga isn’t that it’s done by non-Japanese artists or that it’s labeled wrong. My big problem is an overwhelming lack of originality in most that I’ve personally come across. It’s not unusual for artists of any genre to borrow elements from artists that have influenced them, but there are few manga artist’s styles that will stand out to the casual reader. If there is no spark that stands out about there artwork, I know I am less apt to read it.

The same is true of the writing styles. There are many manga cliché’s that I find start to grate. Every character having crazy names that I’ll never be able to remember from panel to panel are a start. If your character is American, it’s ok to name them Bob instead of Hatashi-San. (example pulled out of my… well you know)

Plot lines and conversational styles are also key.
If your story is about high school student X who has other students A-H in love with them (usually for no apparent reason), then you might want to think about throwing in some other elements to keep it interesting.
Dialogue is another big one. Your characters need to sound believable even if they are cat people in space fighting vampires. Characters that unnecessarily use a lot of manga speak are just going to confuse any reader who isn’t a hard core manga fan to begin with. I know personally I also find it distracting from a comic. You really don’t want to throw in things that pull people out of your story.

I will also have to agree with the left to right vs. right to left thing. People are willing to put up with it being backwards if the original was in another language and it’s been translated, but they are much less patient when you, by choice, made it difficult to read.

Well that’s my 2 cents on the issue.

So what exactly is so wrong about people making comics that emulate people that they enjoy reading (aka Japanese authors). Is it really hurting you, are they forcing you to read it? How different is that from a person emulating a Stan Lee comic other than it isn't particularly for you. Its like the sprite debate (which is now dead...mourn the loss of that thread) if you don't like it, then don't read it. Some of the people that make webmanga and try to make it more authentic do a damn good job with it. It looks pretty nice. If they want to write it right to left, let them, they are only hurting their chance to draw a bigger audience. I also think that most sound effects in general are stupid...japanese or otherwise.



And in the same breath I'm going to argue with myself because I actually think its stupid that there are still japanified-genre (my new name for it, because no one else came up with a different label than MANGA) out there that write right to left. But they have that right. Just like the sprite comics have a right to be here too.


I agree with Titch, this need to weed out and categorize comics is getting annoying. And that WAS on topic because I left it open ended and I think it fits under negative aspects of this comic phenomenon. People see japanified-genre comics and automatically categorize and dismiss them. And unlike sprites, there is a lot of good work that is being dismissed because its japan-generic. A lot of decent stories and good artwork.


Also, tokyopop and some of the other japan comic licensing companies are just now starting to accept japanified-genre comics in a western format (left to right). I think that it was this drive to imitate more authentically by the larger companies that spurred the little artist to follow. I don't think that it solely lies on every overly-addicted otaku fanboy and fangirl's heads. I think that money and consumerism had a bit to do with it also.



Fun unrelated fact...I drove past my local Burger King on my way home and it was on fire. Just thought you'd like to know.

equinox
I was going to counter all of your points, but the fact of the matter is that I already stated my point of view multiple times. Were I to do it much more, the dead horse would fall apart.

oh, darn...I've wanted to see a dead horse fall apart, and you are depriving me of the pleasure. Thanks for all the opinions equinox (and everyone else)...:) Its fun when there is someone to argue with (I derive way too much pleasure from debate).

Doesn't anyone else see some of the good that it brings? Am I all alone? Then again, I also would fight for sprites. I'm a sad human being (not emotionally, just existance wise).

thatreevesgirl


Read all the posts in this topic and in the poll topic, it has been explained REPEATEDLY what is wrong with it. all your points have already been talked about, and your opinion is the minority.

The dead horse thing was was a joke mimarin, and I know that I'm the minority. Someone has to stick up for this side, because these comics wouldn't exist if someone didn't like the way they were being done.

I have read all of the posts and appreciated every comment and viewpoint...in fact I agreed with some of them. I honestly think that your comment was very rude. That is why I wanted this in the debate thread...people don't deal well with debate outside of that thread.


With that in mind, I will end the discussion. I thought it was fun to talk about it, but apparently it wasn't, it was only annoying some of you.

naw, but thanks anyway equinox :D

I draw in a definately manga-influenced style, but I wouldn't call it Manga. Manga is a very specific art form, and I've always felt true manga comes from Japan. There are, however, many VERY good artists in America that can do a manga correctly. There are many, many, MANY more that do NOT.

I, too, am sick of the constant "Onni-chan!" and "Toki-sama" and "Hat-san!" and "Baka!" and "Kawaii!" being thrown into comics. Unless the characters are Japanese, and speak Japanese, they don't need to ever use those words. I would never use them myself, for that very reason.

I try to make my actual comic as non-manga as I can, despite the style of the characters. That's just what I like to draw- the style appeals to me, and I like anime. I think it's fine for people to draw in an anime/manga style, but all that other nonsense I could do without.

Now, about the use of the word "manga" to describe Western comics...

We use the term "tortilla" because it's easier than saying "flat bread" (plus "flat bread can refer to a few different types of bread). The word "tortilla" does not definitively describe the bread in question: it doesn't tell us whether it's made of corn, flower; how it's prepared, whether or not it has spices mixed in. But we call it a tortilla, even though we have English words that mean the same thing.

In that same vein, we have the sombrero. In Spanish, the term "sombrero" just means "hat", and the type of hat we refer to as a sombrero is called a "Sombrero Mexicano" South of the border. Although we have equivalent words, and really aren't using the term correctly, we continue to use the term "sombrero" to only refer to a specific style of hat.


Oh, and Marvel has attempted to market to women in recent years (usually on a small scale) but never with any real success. Archie Comics have been marketing to women for years, and their highest selling properties are the Sonic the Hedgehog franchise (based on a Japanese character) and Sabrina the Teenage Witch (drawn in manga style, in order to cash in on the craze).

thank you inkmonkey for so simply explaining something that I was not getting across well...it was a superb example. :)

This isn't about bad writing. This is about people writing thier comics backwards and using japanese sound effects and forcing japanese words down our throats.

Actually, I opened up the debate to much more. There were several other areas that added in the my first post :) I wanted to talk about more than just the sound effects and right to left read pages. I think that there is more to the debate than just that one small aspect. :) I think that that portion of the debate everyone agreed on...it is annoying.

Can we still talk about the other stuff? Not debate, but just discuss the influences from Japan and the direction people have seen webcomics take in the last few years due to that influence. I think that would be an interesting discussion.

I actually think the issue is a whole lot shallower than we're making it out to be. A lot of webmanga has bad storylines, so we've been conditioned to hate that kind of thing. Either that or we're really jaded with anime and manga and don't like to see japanizations cause we feel people who use them are being foolish.

That's my take on this.

why webcomics are good? because unlike manga and marvel comics which are carbon copies of eachother webcomics can draw elements from both (sometimes the GOOD elements from BOTH and some new ones unique to webcomics) and create something unique. Japanized webcomics are just low quality manga. If I wanted manga (with its good and bad) i'd get some PROFESSIONAL made manga from japan (which I do occasionally, aswell as some standard western comics); but its not just what people want since they aren't selling anything, its a matter of artistic integrity, authors conform to preset plots and character types because they HAVE to in order to get licensing deals; I have seen amazing comics get rejected for publishing and the suggestions they got back were basically "make it more standard - like this one we already print". An author that does that on his webcomic is just shooting himself in the foot since he aint getting a publishing deal and he is just ruining his creative capacity by working to recreate an existing comic with different character names (be honest, the plot and actualy character's personalities are identical).

The whole point of webcomics is the creativity and uniqueness, so copying a manga is only gonna make it suck.

Well... Since I talk about this stuff a lot in the forums and in real life, I shall now answer these questions since I'm too lazy to read what everyone else has said.

How do you feel about Japanification/Japanization?
It's complete bull. I can accept japanese in manga from japan, but I don't like it when people from America attempt to make their material look japanese. It's like a poser. If you're japanese, write in japanese. If you're american, write in english. It's that simple. I draw anime, but I don't completely japanify every little thing, and make people say 'chan' and 'kun', etc...

Do you believe it a good or bad thing?
Actually, it's not necessarily a bad thing, but it ticks people off.

Can it even be called Manga since it is not authentically from Japan?
Yes. When I say manga, I mean the manga from Tokyopop. They usually don't put japanese words, names, or sound effects. Only an anime style and manga. So, yes, since it's published by Tokyopop, it's manga. Americanized manga.

Are the use of Japanese names, titles, and sound effects effective in webcomics?
I think japanese names are completely fine. You can name someone anything you want, so yeah, it's fine. But I don't accept japanese titles and sound effects. The majority of America cannot speak japanese, therefore, they can't translate titles and sound effects.

What are the positive or negative aspects of this comic phenomenon?
Positive:(Even if it has nothing to do with manga...) Back in the old days, when manga wasn't as famous as it is today, kids made fun of asians by calling them 'chinese', no matter what they really were. Since they're introducing Japanese culture to America, I've noticed less people calling every asian 'chinese'. Also, it's great to learn that reading japanese manga is very different from reading a comic book from america. Sometimes, practicing it is cool, too.
Negative: Some kids have taken it too seriously, like speaking mostly japanese to people, calling people 'chan' and 'kun', and wearing japanese school girl outfits, even if they're completely white. Meaning they don't value their own europian culture, and switched lives, almost. Manga should be enjoyed, not worshipped.


If you disagree with me, please tell me why.

How do you feel about Japanification/Japanization?
It's complete bull. I can accept japanese in manga from japan, but I don't like it when people from America attempt to make their material look japanese. It's like a poser. If you're japanese, write in japanese. If you're american, write in english. It's that simple. I draw anime, but I don't completely japanify every little thing, and make people say 'chan' and 'kun', etc...

Yes and if you watch Cartoon Network there are a number of shows that do the Japanification thing. While that is 'anime' and not manga I still think it's the same issue. You have shows like Totally Spies, Xiaolin Showdown, and other fake shows that have the sweat drops, the face etc and it just pisses me off. It's almost as if they were making fun of anime. They try to emulate Japanese-style entertainment and fail horribly. I mean you don't see the Japanese making South Park type of stuff, do you? Same goes for manga. I really don't like it when authors put in that 'stuff', especially when alot of them don't even know what it is. They just think it looks cool and then tosses it into their comic. I don't mind minor influence, because all types of art are linked in some way, but it's those little things that drive me off the cliff.

JKline
About the Tokyo Pop thing. I think Tokyo Pop calls anything they publish manga. It's just a branding thing. Manga is popular. Make people associate Tokyo Pop with manga as a brand. So you see their ads saying "TokyoPop is manga" to drive it into people's heads. And after years of emphasizing their "100% authentic manga" slogan they find semantic hoops to label everything manga, like OEL etc. So I wouldn't put too much stock in that. Don't they call their Family Guy books, "Cine-manga?" Not that I'm saying their OEL stuff couldn't be manga. Just that I'm not sure they coild be considered the barometer.

Haha, you're right. It's only called 'cine-manga' because it's for american shows. Haha, it's kind of funny because they have 'Totally Spies' cine-manga. (Some people actually believe Totally Spies is a real anime.)

But what pisses me off about Totally Spies the most is how they try to make them look Japanese. Once I was really bored, and I wanted to see how bad it was, so I watched it. There was one part when the red-headed one said 'Hey! After school, why don't we pick up some sushi and study together?' I was pissed as hell! First of all, they're steriotyping the asians so much! Sushi and rice isn't the only thing they eat! God, why are these damn adults teaching this stuff to little kids?! Second of all, the storyline is the same for each and every show! Some lame-ass badguy has to have 'revenge' for the stupidest reasons, and they MUST destroy the world, just because.

American shows are getting less funny. Potty humor is not funny, just disgusting.

Oops! I changed the subject. Well... getting back to manga and Tokyopop, I guess you really can't call the comics here 'manga', but since it's published by Tokyopop, you can call it manga.... (Which is really weird.)

Some of it doesn't even resemble japanese styled manga, like this comic, "I luv Halloween". If you look it up at Tokyopop, the artwork looks completely americanized with manga screentones.

It's becoming this way because anime and manga are so mainstream in America now. Anime isn't just a cult thing anymore. It's everywhere. And manga is 100x more accesible than American comics. Of course people are going to be influenced by Japanese style if they read manga and watch anime all the time. Which more and more people are doing.

ccs1989
It's becoming this way because anime and manga are so mainstream in America now. Anime isn't just a cult thing anymore. It's everywhere. And manga is 100x more accesible than American comics. Of course people are going to be influenced by Japanese style if they read manga and watch anime all the time. Which more and more people are doing.

well, it goes back and forth. Anime and manga was heavily influences by some disney ideas (which they since developed in a different direction).

As for the spykids post, Sushi is one of the tastiest things to have ever been created. I have a bunch of friends who hate ANYTHING asian looking and they just love sushi cause its so damned good. Eating sushi isn't something asians do, its something anyone who can afford to does. However, japanification is still stupid and the total inane lack of plot is what happens to all kids show that come from america. For some reason they asume kids are insanely stupid (which they end up being watching shows like that) and create such shows, heck they recreate anime imported from japan to make it stupider. (Yugihoe for example was completely recreated from scratch to remove any semblence of plot for example, not that the original was good, but why dumb it down further?, etc etc.)

Oh, and I agree 100% about the toilet humor not being funny.

I find fart jokes hilarious!
I wouldn't like too much toilet humour, but it IS good occasionally. Very funny stuff. ^_^

The trouble with "japanafication" is two things as far as I'm concerned:
1. Things are boring when they're all the same.
2. If they just port over the "look" and nothing else, then what they create is hollow and stupid. Instead of copying the look, they should try and emulate the cleverness of some of the stories and plots, as well as making them more intelligent- Japanese stuff is produced for a number of audiences, from children to mature adults. Mainstream American cartoons (not all yank cartoons) have a tendency towards cloning each other and only being made for really stupid children who aren't allowed to know about any 'adult' concepts what so ever (even war and politics are dumbed down to nothing).

As for comics... I don't know. I don't read many comics. I imagine American comics are probably clever enough already. I hate the mainstream art style though, I'd take manga over that any day.

I didn't read all of this Cuz it looked Boring !!!!

to me MANGA is the process , NOT the product !

you people can nit pick all you want , but you're just waisting time that a real Manga master would put to better use !

To the Sp(r)iteMobile!

equinox
Perhaps our time could be better spent dishing out 1s to shitty sprite comics and working towards their utter destruction.

This quote goes for EVERY single debate topic in existance.