N00bZ R t3h anoyngzorez!!! XD

Wait, you don't like DC?! (hahhaa... you know... DancingChaos... DC...I'll stop talking now)

I don't hate manga I just hate the novice pieces of shit manga webcomics
that are drawn badlyand backwards and just rip off the stories of every other manga the artist has read.

I've always been interested in the Japanese culture in general, something I mostly inherited from my half brothers who visited over the summers. I did grow up on a few american comics, but once I got into anime and manga, something clicked.

Anime and American cartoons were very different when I was young. American cartoons like Looney Tunes (I still love that show) and others were mainly for cheap entertainment. Even some the cartoons that were supposed to be serious and dramatic turned out to be cheezy and quite corny. Anime seemed a lot deeper than that, to me. The drama was more thrilling, the comedy was funnier, and all while having class. The writers and animators respected themselves and their audience, and earned my respect in return.

This isn't to say that all American Cartoons are bad or that all Anime is good. If anyone remebers Batman: The Animated Series, that was an AWESOME show. Every episode was a rollercoaster ride that left you screaming for more, and it wasn't the only one. Chip and Dale, Rescue Rangers, Duck Tales, Tailspin, all of these were wonderful shows, and I'd watch any of them multiple times before I'd allow myself to sit through an episode of Yuu Yuu Hakusho.

I started drawing in the style I draw today because I can connect with anime a lot better than I can connect with drawing any other 'style'.

As for comics, I don't know a lot of people who read them. Though from what little contact I've had, very few of them will read anything but Marvel or DC, or any other big name brand, which is why the industry is dying I think. For what few american comics I have read, very few got me interested enough to look up later.

Stupid people are everywhere. Sports idiots, Movie buffs, Comic geeks, Gamer nuts. Everyone has an opinion about something, and there's always something people feel strongly about. The trick is to not listen to the ones who are thick enough to think that theirs is the only one worth listening to.

Don't mean to revive a seemingly dead thread but I stumbled across this thread and just had to comment. First of all, is it just me but does it seem like mechashiva and death_monk666 are the same people? Just look:

ccs1989

MechaShiva
can we just leave the cheap paper issue behind? please...has nothing to do with the backbone of this conversation. tells nothing about how good or bad manga/anime is as a style in comparision to american comic/cartoons. we're talking about contents here. how commited, responsible, hard-working, dunno... artists are when they sit at their sketch table...
geez! ... cheap paper, glossy paper, toilet paper? who cares is the content is good?

What I'm trying to say here is that although manga tends to branch into interesting plotlines outside of certain genre, unlike how mainstream American comic seem to stick to Superheros, Americans have created comics of actual literary value, called Graphic Novels. They're deeper than their surface art and story by implementing symbolism on both the literary and visual level. And manga, while being entertaining and branching into different plotlines, has what seems like uniform character-types and cliches abound. This stops it from having literary value.

"graphic novel"-a long story depicted in the form of pictures...Many Manga tell long stories and are depicted in pictures...That makes Manga actually "graphic novels"...See? It is as simple as that. "Sim City" was a "graphic novel"...so is "Yugioh". "The Dark Night" was a graphic novel...so is "One Piece". So it does not matter if it is Japanese or not, if it tells a story using pictures(graphics, to be presice), it is a "graphic novel"...And the cliches are OVER-USED in American culture everyday...so they do not seem cliche...

.: death_monk666 :.

Both don't have a very good grasp of English and actually seem to share the same idiosyncrasies that a non-native speaker of English would have. They share the same habits of ending their sentences with ellipses and using haphazard capitalization. Both of them are rather incoherent because most of the points they make aren't very well articulated in English. Usually, I would be nicer about English ability with non-native speakers but mechashiva has already shown in the early pages of this thread that they will leap at the opportunity to be patronising (note the British spelling!) when given the chance. But I would be very interested to see if both of these users share similar IP addresses.

Anyway, I think this thread is a pretty sad excuse of a debate thread. Mostly because, no one is challenging some of the basic assumptions people are making. Also, definitions for the terms people are throwing around carelessly is missing.

Take for instance, manga. Manga, in the native Japanese, is simply the term to describe sequential art. A few illustrative panels that detail a story that is drawn in strip form would still be labelled a "manga" in Japanese. A book compilation of all the different issues that a series has released is manga. X-men would be manga in Japan (although it's possible that the katakana for comiku would be used too). It is a problem because we are all speaking English here. So, some people are using manga to describe Japanese produced sequential art while others are using it to describe a "generic" art style. Let's not even go into the argument that Japanese manga actually differ greatly stylistically right now because let's face it, there must be some universal quality that the art of 99% of the Japanese manga have for people to be able to recognize that it IS manga art. And those universal characteristics are strong enough to be able to recognize imitations of this stylization with the amerimanga/manga-inspired comics.

I realize this is all stating the obvious here but debate builds from the basics and up. And I think we all need a common starting point. What I don't appreciate is the following assumption of these stereotypes:

1) American comics are only superheroes.
2) Japanese manga are innately superior (or that American comics are innately superior).
3) The Japanese manga artists are superior for producing way more content than American artists.
4) The Japanese manga industry is superior to the American comic industry.

Firstly, the American and Japanese industries share different histories. Frankly, American comics probably have a longer tradition because the modern-day Japanese manga industry didn't actually exist in any form as we know it until after WWII. But we're not playing the superiority game. It is ironic that the Japanese manga industry took its inspiration from the American industry with examples like Disney and Betty Boop. But they share different implementations. I find a lot of the comparisons flawed because most of the comparisons don't take into account the inherent differences in the system.

American comics never had the mainstream penetration that manga does in Japan. This is again related to the fact that post-WWII Japan was a hell of a lot poorer than America, which was actually going through a huge economic boom. The mass media for Japan was still print while in America, TV was taking over. So, for entertainment, manga was king in Japan. The modern situation reflects the historical repercussions. Because manga had to take up the slack, this is the reason why more diverse plots and storytelling is available. In America, comics were and ARE still a niche market. So traditionally, the plots tend to be narrower to cater to a specific audience. Of course, there have been great strides in diversifying the stories found in American comics. Also, America had the comic censorship movement which killed a lot of creativity in comics so this is also why much of mainstream professional publishing of comics is just superheroes. It is only recently that more market share is given to the alternative or indie comics.

Why am I making a point of mentioning this? Because at one point or another, this must be acknowledged: there is a difference between art created for COMMERCIAL purposes and art created for artistic purposes. Due to the mainstream acceptance of manga in Japan, it is a highly COMMERCIALIZED industry. The make up of the Japanese industry is VERY different from the make-up of the American system. There is NO diversity in the Japanese system as everything is controlled by the publishing houses. There is no self-publishing as we know it. The only "original" and non-professional works are usually fanworks and derivative in nature too. It is VERY RARE to see anything like webcomics or "indie" comics in Japan. Specifically because the original environment in which the manga industry flowered meant that it was easy for everything to be commercialized. So, in Japan, manga is a COMMODITY. There are a few manga, just like there are a few books, that are considered ART but for the most part, the purpose of what is produced is for mass entertainment and not for a higher purpose. You can love the manga if the story connects with you but most of it was not produced to be a significant commentary on life or be a masterpiece of art.

In America, the great superhero comic book companies were the only ones that really survived the great censorship purge because the aftermath of the censorship meant that to escape, the comics needed to be oriented to KIDS or a general audience only. It is a much more different environment than Japan had. The restrictive environment that the American comic book industry had in comparison meant that it forced most of the non-mainstream comics underground. Since, America has always had a tradition of self-publication (the Founding Fathers were basically self-publishers), this movement included the underground comics. So, America actually has a paradoxical comic industry as most of the mainstream stuff is stagnant in terms of the variety of settings, stereotypes and ideas that it can draw on while there is a very vibrant independent scene that is slowly growing more professional by the day.

Now I am examining these two industries like they were separate when they DO have influences on each other. American comics are imported into Japan and Japanese manga has been imported into America in increasing numbers. But I want to delineate the differences first. Another KEY difference is that because in the American industry, there are far more tiers than there are in the Japanese industry. In Japan, it is basically amateur and then professional. Amateurs are usually fans of professionals and produce fan-manga, dojinshi that they give away for free or sell for a cheap price to offset the costs of production. There is very little middle ground and about the only example I can think of where there might have been some middle ground is with the manga group CLAMP, which started out as a dojinshi group. But their amateur publications never went beyond fan circles and were only high enough to catch the interests of a very insular industry. They only achieved the popularity that they did by signing professionally. Also, within the professional circle, there are authors and assistants. A LOT of the grunt work is done by assistants and the amount varies with each author. Some authors do much more writing than actual art while others do some of the main art. But the key here is that they're the ones who are credited for it. The assistants are all unknown and nameless-- UNCREDITED for doing what amounts to at least 50% of the artwork. The only exception to the rule that I can think of is Shiro Masamune who is FAMED for doing everything by hand, something that is very mundane in the US is RARE in Japan.

In America (sorry for my US-centric perspective but I don't know too much of the worldwide state of comics so need to focus on what I do know), the gray areas are bigger. There are amateurs and professionals but there are also people in the middle. Because as we all know, there are degrees of self-publication-- someone might just photocopy some of their art for distribution while others pay to self-publish. And then of course, some just publish to the web. A few lucky ones gain enough of an audience to basically act as their own independent presses. Essentially, there is a freedom of choice here-- it is possible to make your own living now WITHOUT the middleman. So really, there is a bigger muddle here. In the professional world though, most everyone gets the credit they are due too. People are known as pencillers, inkers, colorers or writers. And then there are the artists that do EVERYTHING themselves.

How is this comparable to the Japanese system? Because you DON'T KNOW if it's actually the artist themselves that produce the art. All you know is the market brand that is presented by the publishing house. Both systems have their strengths and weaknesses.

Frankly, I am a fan of both but I do not see the need to mindlessly worship manga. Mostly because people don't seem to realize that what they see available is IMPORTED. That means that there is already a filter in place. We don't see the 90% of everything is crap rule in effect for manga because WE'RE NOT IN JAPAN. What is being exported from Japan are manga that was successful enough to find an audience. We DON'T see the failures.

Again, the stylistic differences between Japanese and American art also have practical purposes. Since manga is so common in Japan, art NEEDS to be simplified in order to be produced in the amount that is necessary to meet deadlines. Commercially produced tones, a heavily graphic element and assistants to use as drudges are the key to success for most of the manga in Japan. Japanese efficiency is different from American efficiency so the products produced are different. But it is unfair to try to compare the 100 pages a manga author produces a month compared to the perhaps 30 pages an American artist will produce because most of the time, it is 5 people vs the 1.

Also, whatever the differences between Eastern and Western culture, there is still a similarity-- STEREOTYPES ABOUND. Perhaps manga is fresh in America because not as much of the cliches are apparent to people used to the storytelling techniques that American comics use. But I guarantee you that both American comics and Japanese manga have their over-used plot devices. There is no superiority in the types of plot or breadth of variety because both industries address them in different ways. The variety of plots found in manga can be found in American non-superhero comics (mainstream and alternative), which are produced in increasing numbers. The abundance of manga is offset by its disposable nature while the shortage of American comics is offset by its durability. There is a give and take here.

What I find more telling is that some pro-American comics people are afraid that manga will kill off comics while pro-manga people seem convinced that comics will die. The problem inherent in assumptions here is this: MANGA IS AS MUCH OF A NICHE AS AMERICAN COMICS ARE. Perhaps there is a higher awareness of manga and anime due to the amount of press but I guarantee that the percentage of people you find walking down the street that know enough about manga or anime, much less comic books, to have a coherent conversation about it is still a minority.

I think it is good for an industry to be challenged. I find it worrisome instead for the manga industry in Japan that it is NOT being challenged and instead is stagnant. The success of their exports will only discourage creativity because they want to sell reliably and the only thing that they know will sell reliably is the same old stuff. With a competitor in the imported manga, American comics must evolve or die. They must challenge themselves. You already see this in some of the big three, DC, Marvel and Dark Horse. They are taking on non-superhero stories. It used to be unthinkable.

So, really. Please can it with the bashing of the manga. You guys are bashing it for the wrong reasons. And manga otaku, stop it with the mindless worship. You're not thinking it through.

I'll possibly get flamed for this reeeeaaaally long post. But it was really painful for me to read this thread and I wanted to add my own $0.02. I think people tend to get sucked into the subjective without even an objective analysis of some of the facts.

I think it's safe to say that we can just delete the last 10 pages of this thread except for the post above.

I haven't read all of this thread and I don't intend to. If there are other good posts such as the one above, please refer me to them.

I was told that manga was started in the 1800's.

3d1t: Oh damn, I didn't know this had so many posts, I was replying to a post on the first page I think. I had no idea there were more pages.

The reason I don't like manga is simple - I've never seen a manga that interests me. I don't hate manga just because it's manga. Were any manga I've seen done in any other style, I still wouldn't like them. But, were anything I liked done in a manga style, I would still like them. It's not the style that gets me, just the fact that none I've seen have been any good (in my own personal opinion, don't take this as me saying all manga sucks).

Basically, I may like a manga I haven't seen, but as yet, I haven't seen any I've liked. Simple as that.

mlai
I think it's safe to say that we can just delete the last 10 pages of this thread except for the post above.

I haven't read all of this thread and I don't intend to. If there are other good posts such as the one above, please refer me to them.

Thanks, I'm pretty sure that my post probably still overgeneralizes anyway. I'm actually more interested in knowing if MechaShiva and death_monk666 are really related. Because seriously, they type the same way. I'm surprised no one even noticed it and called them on it. Even if they're not the same person, they sure are backing each other up. It just smacks of cowardice in my mind.

Do we really give a damn if someone is being imaginary friends with himself on a niche forum?

Don't stoop to such a level. It's not worth wasting one second of brain activity over.

(Assuming someone is actually doing this. So, no offense unless you're actually doing this.)

mlai
Do we really give a damn if someone is being imaginary friends with himself on a niche forum?

Don't stoop to such a level. It's not worth wasting one second of brain activity over.

(Assuming someone is actually doing this. So, no offense unless you're actually doing this.)

Oh, I just found it curious that no one even noticed the similarities. I am a bit surprised though that someone would use a sockpuppet just to win some obscure forum debate. I would have preferred it if people just elaborated on what they meant instead of muddying the waters even further.

Anyway, to be on topic, I do tend to dislike some of the more mass-produced manga though. The ones that pander to the fans-- I use pander specifically because it's not simply fulfilling the wishes of the fans, it feeds their appetite to the point where it becomes gluttony. I do not really see the need to elevate comics that are thinly-veiled excuses for fanservice into masterpieces of art. But this also applies to American comics for me since some of the female and male anatomy that is drawn do raise my eyebrows...

I think I do have to issue a correction because it is possible the "manga style" that we all know and recognize is really a much smaller subset of the variety of styles used in Japanese comics but with the filtering of imports, most of the comics that are exported do seem to share some uniformity. This is of course a generalization so there are always exceptions to the rule.

About the existence of manga in the 1800s though, I have to clarify that because manga as we know it in its current form did not exist until around the WWII era. Japan wasn't even open to the West until the mid 1800s and panelization of sequential art as we see it in the modern comic was nonexistent in Japan at that time. What Japan DID have was ukiyo-e art, which was illustrative art that was also their form of storytelling. I remember reading somewhere that most of the pioneers of manga were former ukiyo-e artists, which explains the strong graphic element that manga have as ukiyo-e prints has a certain stylization and graphic sensibility that manga shares.

Hrm... I kind of wish that I had the original sources from which I obtained this information but I like to read up on theories of storytelling, sequential art in particular, that I'm not even sure where to start looking for the original sources that I got this information from...

well, I used to read manga a LOT, I just got tired of the cliches... they drove me away like ads drive me away from watching tv.

That was a good rant, kainee. Thing is American creators really only started turning out the much more professional work in the last 10 years or so. Look at some of the comics before then. Sure, there were things like Watchmen, but the overall art quality on a page wasn't all that amazing. The advent of computers to help with the production of comics made the quality jump, but since the comic industry crashed back when these were getting introduced (for different reasons) people just stopped caring. Add to that the reusing of characters from such a long time back, and you get much less originality in America.

It's for reasons like this that I like series that stay self contained like Invincible, but are also expansive in that self contained series. One does not have to purchase a billion books to be in on all the mythos, they just have to purchase the series as it slowly comes out.

Thanks. I actually think that most of the creativity in American comics can be found in the non-superhero comics. It's only been recently that the alternative/indie comic scene has gained prominence but I think that it's always been there. Actually, this is why I think manga is a boon to the American comics because usually competition forces improvement. So I see it as a good thing as I notice the big 3 visibly trying to diversify their storylines. Even if sometimes the ideas or concepts are a bit iffy, you can at least see the effort.

On the flipside, I don't think Japan has the same dynamic. Its amateur/alternative scene really does have a lot more to do with pandering and fanservice. I'm sure there are gems out there that are genuine exercises in creativity but for the most part, it's either derivative work or work created for a specific niche. I don't want to make this generalization but from the remarks of several of my friends who have been to Japan, a lot of the dojinshi are actually X-rated in nature... so... yes, I would say that is pandering. Not to say creativity can't be found in such work, but for the most part, they're probably not meant to be the literary/artistic masterpieces to hold up as an example to the industry.

One thing I like about Japanese manga though is the one storyline. I tend to not like the alternate storylines that are encouraged with superheroes. Mostly because to me, the different "universes" that are set up dilutes my empathy for the characters. A character died? No worries-- they're still alive in this universe! But I do think that the American comics industry actually does a better job balancing the commercial and artistic-- there's always tension between these two intents but I think that the Japanese formula is far more commercial in nature.

Frankly though, it may be blasphemy to say, but I think that writing is key for both markets. The art is only icing on the cake. As long as the art doesn't detract from the story, it doesn't really matter so I don't really judge based on quality of art. Because sequential art is first and foremost, a medium for storytelling. Although they are visual stories, as long as the story is conveyed and makes us empathize, it's done its job.

I have to admit though that right now I am a bit tired of Japanese manga. Perhaps it's to do with the fact that the imported Japanese manga are rather narrow in range and it's probably not an accurate representation of the range of manga available in Japan, but much of the popular manga wear thin. I'm not interested in series anymore because they all seem rather predictable to me. About the only one I can stand anymore is One Piece because it has crazy pirates duking it out. With American comics, I don't read superhero comics either. I really only read the alternative comics. So, this is why I have a more favorable view of the way the American comic industry is set up as currently, it seems to have more choices for me.

Art-wise though, I think that Japanese manga art is very dynamic. It's a big difference compared to the pristine quality of some professional American comics. I remember picking up a comic after being used to manga and it felt like the frames were at a standstill-- the camera was not moving. It was only then that I realized that the manga frames are always posed as if moving at great speeds. I guess they are both different schools of "cinematography" but they both work with their own strengths and weaknesses. Anyway I will stop blathering now...

Huh? How can the Big 3 of American comics be less commercial than Manga? Perhaps what you're trying to say is "Since Manga has no true indie scene, overall American comics (with its indies) are more artistically inclined than Manga."

I don't know the business aspects, but I thought it's easier to be a manga artist in Jpn than to create your own work in USA. Because, I thought, a manga artist in Jpn is like an American writer in USA: You create your own work, then you submit to editors looking to get published. So in essence you're selling your creativity, so you need to be creative. While in USA, you're often just a cog in the team, and have no creative say. And it's not your creation anyways so you don't care, and you work on 1 series for a while and move on to another. Frank Miller is always ranting about that in his editorials.

I can't really understand why there's no "creative" fan manga in Jpn. Yes, to my knowledge, most fan manga are either X-rated, or just short humor strips. Very few full plotlines which continue off the universe the original manga story ended on. If the doujinshi culture is fully tolerated in Jpn without fear of copyright lawsuits, then why is this? Why do so few create fan manga with developed original plots, like I did with my FIGHT? These are good artists with excellent grasp of the serial illustration medium... don't they want to tell stories???

Art is as important as story. Because there are a bazillion manga/comics out there. We do not waste our time with one which is deficient in either art or story. Thing is, you can tell if a manga/comic is deficient in art in the 1st 10 seconds, a period of time when the best story in the world can't save the comic from being put back on the shelf.

While American comics have excellent art, I have yet to find any comic which matches the "cinematography" present in the best of manga. The action cinematography in works like Akira and Appleseed/GITS, for example, are unrivaled AFAIC. Much like how nobody in Hollywood can match Hong Kong fight choreographers, so they just hire from there nowadays.

heh, so many big responses about why we hate/love manga's and american comics.
:D

I read mangas and comics.
Pros of mangas: good time waster. Some styles are different, expressions are adorable.
Cons of mangas: A lot of mangas I see on the seleef are OVERALLY USED. It is seriously hard to find a manga worthwhile to read. I've found a few great ones out there but very few.

Pros of Comics: it's something different to read besides Mangas. Stuff I can relate to and understand. Granted, I'm not big into the whole Superhero thing but, the few that I do read, like "The Crow," and "Silent Hill," I enjoy.
Cons of comics: Call me ignorant or whatever but the superhero thing is widely over used. It's hard to find a comic that isn't about some person(s) having some kind of strange power. It's not bad or anything... it's just a little over used.

In the end, it's hard finding a good manga or american comic with a good plot, characters, style, unqieness, and meaning in this world. Every great plot in the world has been used. It's jsut a matter of twists and turns and stuff that makes it worth the time.Styles don't bother me much. Both Manga and American comics are pretty much the same for me. I either like it or don't.
As for artist that draw manga, it's not true manga unless they do it the way the pro's do it in japan. Out of all the manga classified comics here on DD, only ONE of them follow it with it's own kick. If the artist intends for it to be manga, okay. I hope the plot and stuff is good.
Comic artist the same.

Blah blah. I made no sense. X3

I feel indifferent toward manga ...



... what does that make me?

a regular person

Yessssss.
Regularity.

mechanical_lullaby
Yessssss.
Regularity.

Which is exactly what androids strive for... Mecha sonny. ^_^

Anime/manga is all fine and dandy, I just kind of stopped with it because most of the new stuff doesn't interest me.

Am I the only one who didn't care all that much about Hellsing...? What I've read and seen of it....I just wasn't that amazed. AND NO, my comic is not influenced in the least by Hellsing! Jack had the black hair and red eyes before Alucard DAMNIT!! XO

Obviously my comic is manga influenced...but I've been slowly fading into my own thing here nowadays. It'll probably stay farely manga influenced though since, for this particular comic, it's just how I've always pictured it.

Hmm, will this topic ever end? The world may never know.

Nah, I don't think it will end.
Most people like to put in their two cents more than they like to read anyone else's opinion. And the thread goes on with its redundant nature. lol! ZOMG, did I just say that aloud?*runs away*

Now, the TV Hellsing series sucks. The story is hackneyed and the art/animation is nothing like the manga.

The manga and the OVAs, however, are cool. Not because it's about vampires, but because:

1. It's not preachy. I don't want to hear about yet another "the moral suffering of becoming a vampire oh noes." It goes straight into the fighting, the happy gore, all the big guns, and minutiae of exorcist magicks. I just love it whenver the Church is portrayed as some global supermilitant organization, and the story has the pseudofactual background research to back it up. Manga + White Wolf = Cool.

2. The stylized art of both the manga and OVA.

3. Nazis + Occult = Coolness. Reference: Raiders of the Lost Arc, Hellboy, Danger Girl, Castle Wolfenstein.

4. (Sera Victoria) - (vampire angst) - (discriminated by human comrades oh noes) - (drinking blood from a ****ing BOWL) + (sticking tongue out) =

Heh. Yeah, Hellsing is defintely the highlight of plotless stories which people read because the art is so freakin great.

I dunno, when I go into a comic shop these days I tend to feel really apathetic towards everything I see. Invincible, Ex Machina, and Berserk, and stuff of similar quality to that tend to be seen in low quantities. Instead there are like a billion different X-Men comics, about 15 Civil War spinoff series, and endless Batman series. What's the point? The series are never going to end. New writers are just going to take over. I think it's time that American creators starting concentrating on something more concrete, like creating graphic novels with contained stories that wrap up in around 300 pages. Like "The Long Halloween". That was a great book.

The single issue market just strikes me as pointless. I can't see how anyone can justify bying a 32 page magazine where ten of those pages are ads when you could buy a more durable collection later at a slightly lower price with no ads.

US monthly comics = pointless.

1. Price.

2. Characters you don't care about - The story will never end and they'll never change from the immortal genericity they've evolved into.

3. Stories you don't care about - Why should you care when the characters will never change and the stories will never end? There will always be a "next arc" consisting of the same damn thing.

4. Writers/artists you can't keep up with - How can you develop any loyalty or keep track of the ones who pique your interest, when you can associate a particular creation with a specific creator? They keep moving around it's like you have to be a detective to follow them. No thanks.

5. Brevity and longevity - Graphic novels which will hold your attention for more than 20 minutes, yes. Flimsy mags which actively want to fall apart to spite you, no.

Moved to comics... this hasn't belonged in art/lit since the second or third post :P

mlai
US monthly comics = pointless.

1. Price.

2. Characters you don't care about - The story will never end and they'll never change from the immortal genericity they've evolved into.

3. Stories you don't care about - Why should you care when the characters will never change and the stories will never end? There will always be a "next arc" consisting of the same damn thing.

4. Writers/artists you can't keep up with - How can you develop any loyalty or keep track of the ones who pique your interest, when you can associate a particular creation with a specific creator? They keep moving around it's like you have to be a detective to follow them. No thanks.

5. Brevity and longevity - Graphic novels which will hold your attention for more than 20 minutes, yes. Flimsy mags which actively want to fall apart to spite you, no.

...wow. No offense, but in my personal opinion, you are wrong on quite a few points.

I agree that buying a comic issue by issue is pretty dumb. Still, comics come out in collections which are almost as durable as manga collections and, in my expirence, cheaper. The difference in artists both annoys and thrills, because it allows you to be exposed to different styles and multiple writers allow ou to see all sides of the character rather than the side a single artist is forcing upon you. Sometimes the shift in art is bad, but it puts it in perspective. Also, following an artist or writer as they move to a different comic allows you to see some new, which you wouldn't have discovered if it weren't for the artist's career change. It's not hard to follow an artist or writer because their names are on covers. It hardly constitutes detective work.

On the whole brevity and longevity thing, I say American style comics have the best of it because of their staying power. I can stay interested in the Dark Phoenix Saga for however long it takes to read the collection, and I'll re-read after reading something like "Endsong" with a whole new perspective. These arcs contain changes, some lasting, some not, that change characters, develop them, make them into people. Gwen Stacey's death, Cyclops leaving Phoenix for the White Queen, the birth of Franklin Richards; all these arcs changed established characters, made lasting differencs that redefined the way we look at their world.

In manga, I rarely, if ever, see that. Mostly, I see two guys shooting energy at each other. The thing that bugs me about it is that there's very little action in a lot of popular manga. I have read whole collections of popular manga like Naruto, Inuyasha, Ranma and Dragonball whatever, and nothing happens in them. It's literally two guys, thinking about their power levels or chakra levels. Whole issues of nothing.

Still, comics come out in collections which are almost as durable as manga collections and, in my expirence, cheaper.

I would love to know where you're shopping. Last time I looked in the local Barnes and Noble, the retail price on most manga was under $15, with the majority of it falling in at about $10. When I check the American comics, most are $15 or more. Durable, maybe, but definitely not cheaper. Even so, mlai was taking specifically of comic books, not compilations, so how is his statement wrong in this case?

The difference in artists both annoys and thrills, because it allows you to be exposed to different styles and multiple writers allow ou to see all sides of the character rather than the side a single artist is forcing upon you.

Or one could also argue that the characters are either purposely written as flat stereotypes to make things easier on the multiple writers, or the writers simply disreguard past works and create all sorts of inconsistencies in characterization and plot. I find the latter to be more common.

It's not hard to follow an artist or writer because their names are on covers.

I find more often than not, the credits are inside the comic, not on the cover. Rooting through the comics rack looking for my favorite artist or author really doesn't sound that convinient to me.

On the whole brevity and longevity thing, I say American style comics have the best of it because of their staying power.

Actually I find the opposite to be true. Only the really dedicated fans will stick with the storylines. The problem with a never-ending storyline is that at some point it gets formulaic and people get bored of it. When a story has a planned beginning middle and end, the author actually has more freedom to explore themes and situations the more commercial comics can't. How often do American comics kill off a popular character only to bring them back again later? Changes in American comics are so often superficial and their overriding themes not only are static, but are identical in about 99% of all American long form comics.

Mostly, I see two guys shooting energy at each other.

Well that accounts for maybe 2% of all manga out there. Sounds like you need to broaden your horizons a bit. I have over 300 anime DVDs in my apartment and about 400gigs of fansubs. Of all the anime I currently have, only the two uncut sets of Naruto even fit that description. Of the manga I have, nothing fits your descriptions. Of course, I tend to prefer comedies and slice of life style mangas over action stuff. I do collect Berserk and I have all of Akira, but I haven't really seen any chapters in either which don't deliver or involve characters thinking about power or chakra levels.

Regarding the changes of artists/writers, I completely disagree with your line of reasoning.

I'm not buying a book to explore new artists/writers, WTF. For example, after reading Appleseed 1, I immediately go out and buy 2,3,4, and the short story add-on specifically because I know it's drawn and written by Masamune Shirow, who is awesome. Imagine if by page 320, suddenly the author becomes Mr. Joe. Imagine this happened in the middle of reading any novel. I'm supposed to be happy?

Outside just artist loyalty, there is also title loyalty. I don't just read Appleseed 2,3,4 because I know it's done by Shirow. I also do it because it's Appleseed, done by Shirow. You associate the 2 together. You can't just separate them. Appleseed is awesome, but only if it's done by Shirow. By anyone else, even someone just as good, it becomes different and it breaks you out of the universe.

This has happened with me and US comics. I read Spirits of Vengeance only as far as Kubert was involved, then I dumped it. Sure Kubert goes on to other titles, but I didn't care about other titles. I cared about Spirits of Vengeance done by Kubert. And I'm not gonna read big comics guide phonebooks and see where he went.

The only case I'd ever agree with you is Lucas and Star Wars.

I like Manga and Anime a lot but the only thing that I don't like when they make the cuteness or the weirdness to the extreme.

It's nice to see the goofy part of an anime or mange but when it comes too much it kills the anime. I, once, watched a series called: Abenobashi Magical Shopping District. It started really smoothe up until the 3rd episode it gotten really weird that I hated it. Too much extreme towards everything kills the art.

Now about American comics, the reason I hate some them is that THEY DON'T FUCKING END. For example: Spiderman... it has been since 1960's and the series didn't finish and I hate the different versions like Spiderman... The Amazing Spiderman... Spiderman Extravaganza... Spiderman That Craps! Enough already... I do like Spiderman but the more you see him, you'd wish Dr. Octopus would sqwish him like a bug.

At least, most Animes or Mangas do have endings and sometimes it turns out very surprising like a Manga I read called "Le Bijoux" had a very nice surprising ending that kept me thinking over and over again.

I see where you guys are coming from, although I don't really agree with you. I like being exposed to new things, broadening my horizons, finding new ways to think about the comics. If a change in writers causes an inconsistency, then you have to figure out what accounts for this. It makes you probe, gets you into the flow of the inter-mixing storylines and changes. I like thinking when I read.

"Actually I find the opposite to be true. Only the really dedicated fans will stick with the storylines."

Um, like I said, collections. They allow you to read a whole storyline in one fell swoop. Besides, why would you start reading a story you didn't intend on finishing?

"I would love to know where you're shopping. Last time I looked in the local Barnes and Noble, the retail price on most manga was under $15, with the majority of it falling in at about $10. When I check the American comics, most are $15 or more. Durable, maybe, but definitely not cheaper. Even so, mlai was taking specifically of comic books, not compilations, so how is his statement wrong in this case?"


I said I agreed that the monthly issue thing is a waste of money. I shop at Barnes and Noble and local comic book store. It sounds like wherever you live really over-charges. Are you in a college town or something?


"Well that accounts for maybe 2% of all manga out there. Sounds like you need to broaden your horizons a bit."

I've mainly been exposed to mainstream mange, i.e. Naruto, Dragon Ball, Inuyasha. Still, most of the manga outside of those three I've been exposed to seem to follow a fairly formulaic plot. I'm sure there are many manga outside of this sterotype, but this is most of what I've been exposed to. Click on the following for an example.

http://www.drunkduck.com/Culture_Shock/index.php?p=15867