JKline
So I will say this, although you can find similarities in manga or American comics and even point out general strengths or weaknesses in differences of approach, in the end there is no comics creator that I know of named, "Manga" or "American Comics." The names on the comics I read are Mike Mignola, Dan Clowes, Hiroaki Samura, Masamune Shirow etc. The reason I enjoy these have more to do with the individual talents and vision of the creators that make them rather than the label put on them. I certainly don't go to the store thinking, "gotta have manga! Any manga! " and I don't ask for the latest copy of "American Comic." Because there is no token manga or token American comic. I think that to approach art any other way is foolish.

I would have to agree there.
there's some Manga out there which I wouldn't touch with a ten-pole, despite the fact that I'm an huge Manga fan. mainly because of the artists who does the manga that I consider to be very bad.
take the artist of the manga FLCL (fooly Cooly). even though the anime was excellent, the Manga itself is acrictious!! it's way more sketchy than the worst sketchy web comic out there.. you can't even tell what is an person and what is an object in it.. it's just a bunch of lines and scribbles.
and the artist's other mangas aren't very good neither.

but if I see mangas done by my favorite manga artists, such as Masamune Shirow for example, then I'm definitely gonna check it out and most likely buy it.

the same goes for any American Comics.. I'm very picky about not how the general stuff looks, but also about the story....
an American comic is useless to me if it has very excellent artwork but no story or very little of it. (same for manga too if you were wondering). if I only wanted artwork, then I would had gotten art books instead. For American comic artists my favorites are Neil Gaiman, and the team who made Fable: legends in exile.

people hate manga so much because once upon a time, they went to an anime convention.

As they saw all these "weirdos" (anime fans) dressing up like anime characters and ninjas and samurais, they started laughin at em and talking shit at their faces.


So the anime fans got mad and they beat em up with their super duper ninja moves they learned from watching Naruto, Ruroni Kenshin, Bleach, etc...


And then the shit-talking people had to be hospitalized after getting a taste of kage-bunshin-no-jutsu... One guy was like... hey! a bunch of orange ninjas beat my ass!!! uugh... They all looked the same... it must be some kind of ninja technique!!!


And so... after they got beaten up, they started to develop this extreme hatred for anime. they hate em so much that they create their own message board and start calling for extermination of anime and all their followers as subhuman filth... They even plotted terrorist attacks and suicide bombings... but they are too stupid to even do that. ;)

Yeesh, has this thread taken a nasty turn.

Here are my reasons for not liking manga/anime:

I used to like manga/anime. I admit that I used to, but after a while the stories became recycled and trite. Yes, there may be a debate about "true originality" but a lot of the stories are extremely similar. Essentially the same story but with different characters. Also, the humor is very...odd to me. I don't particularly find domestic abuse and perverts/peeping toms funny. However, that may be cultural differences, or personal taste. Also: the love triangles. Does the majority of manga have to have a love triangle in the story??? I find love triangles so dramatic and corny. There has to be something else that you can make your story of. Now, not all mangas are bad, but I've just lost interest in them.

I based a lot of my early years' work on them which was a horrible idea. It's hard to get out of the style if that's all you've been working on when you're little. I'm still trying to shake off the "mistakes" and exaggerations the style comes with. It's hard to create your own style after starting with manga.

As many people have said, hardcore manga fans are creepy. Can you enjoy a comic's story and art? Sure! Of course! Does that mean you have to dress up like the characters in the comic to show your unbridled devotion to it? Er... no. That's just creepy. Also, as it has been presented in this thread, there are those fans who have a terrible case of elistism. Not all fans are like that, but it does give me some reason not to like the stories in the first place. A friend of mine was like that, only with the bands she listened to. Just because you didn't know every single minute detail about every character in the entire series does not you aren't a true fan. I've gotten sick of dealing with people like that.

All in all, if you like manga, awesome. If you don't, that's awesome as well. Do what you want, as long as I'm not forced to do any of that creepy cosplaying stuff.

The fact of the matter is that it's all a matter of taste. There's no more reason to hate manga than there is any other comic genre.

For example, I have a racist friend who hates anime/manga solely because it's Asian. He hates Asians, along with anyone who's not white, because he feels that people are being racist against white people now. Then again, he's probably being a bit too radical.

One could say that because there are so many manga, that it's obviously a successful genre, and a tried-and-true method. And then someone could use the exact same reason to say that it's bad, in saying that it wouldn't be original.

MechaShiva
can we just leave the cheap paper issue behind? please...has nothing to do with the backbone of this conversation. tells nothing about how good or bad manga/anime is as a style in comparision to american comic/cartoons. we're talking about contents here. how commited, responsible, hard-working, dunno... artists are when they sit at their sketch table...
geez! ... cheap paper, glossy paper, toilet paper? who cares is the content is good?

What I'm trying to say here is that although manga tends to branch into interesting plotlines outside of certain genre, unlike how mainstream American comic seem to stick to Superheros, Americans have created comics of actual literary value, called Graphic Novels. They're deeper than their surface art and story by implementing symbolism on both the literary and visual level. And manga, while being entertaining and branching into different plotlines, has what seems like uniform character-types and cliches abound. This stops a lot of it from having literary value.

Although check out Akira, if you haven't already. Awesome series. There are also a lot of great, deep anime in Japan, like Paranoia Agent, which had a ton of symbolism. The Japanese are definitly ahead of us in the field of creating consistant, entertaining 2-D animation.


So Mazoo, you must really hate Halloween, huh? :P

I don't mind the cosplaying... it's like dressing up for halloween.

what is normal about dressing up like a werid character that one day of the year?

so why not any other days?
just as long as people don't actually cosplay to the point where they're wearing those outfits EVERYDAY and it's just at places like Conventions where you're not alone, then it's not creepy.

I've cosplayed as Sailor Moon before... however I didn't do it just to show devtition or whatever. I just did it because it was fun to do it....

In this context, I use graphic novel as a comic which has literary value. YuGiOh has no literary value. I'm not actually sure if any Japanese comic does. Possibly Akira and some I haven't heard about.

American comics like Watchmen and Maus DO have literary value. I'm just saying that this is one instance in where American comics have manga beat.

You know what's funny is that only a couple years ago we were in this forum defending manga as Mykill tried to prove that it was unoriginal and lower-quality.

what about the manga-derivatives?

A good 60% of drunkduck comics have art styles that are derivatives of manga.

Though not all of that 60% call their own comic a "manga".

Edit: Ha, I type slow. You guys got that in before I was finished. Ah well.

ccs1989
So Mazoo, you must really hate Halloween, huh? :P

I actually enjoy Halloween! I just don't like cosplaying. I have no legitimate reason; it's just that I don't like it.

deathmonk whatever your name is
And many manga have literary value...if not here than in Japan and China were it can from...Like any good book, manga has a value that needs to bee deeply examined for. Yugioh is about friendship(anyone can tell that); but what else? Good over evil; that good loses sometimes; to trust yourself...etc...etc.

Do you know what "literary value" is? What you are describing are things that fairy tales encompass. Those are "and the moral of the story is..." themes. Literary value is something that makes you think or advances society in some way. I doubt YuGiOh advances any society. Also, "literary value" can mean teaching you a lesson, but that lesson should make you think, not just spew morals (as in "trust yourself," "friendship" etc.)at you.

And I don't get what you're saying about attacking Ccs for talking about mainstream manga... because from what I know, isn't YuGiOh extremely mainstream? So you demean Ccs for talking about "mainstream manga," yet you use it as an example yourself. I'm afraid I don't see your point...

deathmonkdude
What do you think they call comics with "superheroes" in Japan? CR*P!!! How do I know this? Simple. They have a different audience than us. See? They wish to please their audience, not ours, so they see literary value in a different way than the basic hero-saves-damsal way Americans do.

I don't believe so. Many characters from manga can be considered "Superheroes." The definition is of a person with super-human powers who usually fights crime and evil. With that kind of definition, Sailor Moon can be considered a superhero. And she definitely follows the "hero-saves-damsal" theme, although the "damsal" isn't necessarily a female. Although they still have thick glass ceilings over there. Their literary value is no different than "American" literary value, as many manga have the "good vs. evil" theme as much as American comics do.

Your idea of the theme that "good loses sometimes" is called drama and suspence. It's a writing technique. In the end (of most mainstream manga) the good will triumph over evil. That goes for any type of story. Most, not all, popular stories, novels, comics, movies, etc, have good triumph over evil.

If you mean that some mainstream manga/anime focus on younger audiences, then I agree that their audiences are different. If you are talking about it on a cultural level, then I would find it extremely offensive as the Japanese are not some alien race that are so different than you or I. They still have teenagers/adults there that can act you or me.

deathmonkwhatever
...American comics and graphic novels are too cliche on both top and bottom to provide any meaning than what is to be expected...

That is an extremely ignorant statement as any story from any society or culture can have cliches. That all depends on the writing. Some manga can have magnificent writers and some American stories can be pretty crappy, sure, but it's a two-way street. There are some fantastic writers in "American" comics, but there can be other really poorly done manga out there. These types of things aren't seperated into definite black and white, as you are trying to make them out to be.

I would have to agree with Mazzo here.

death Monk, you aren't really helping defending Manga way too well... Yuigioh is WAY mainstream.

you seriously need to pick better examples.
Akiara.
Neo Evangelion the Manga
Death Note
Suicide Club (man, that manga was so fucked up...sure made me think differently about how people relate to each other and need each other, especially when they have gone though difficult situations. has a lot of teenager problems going on, and it isn't definitely preachy. a lot of disturbing stuff, and also has the theme of people getting together to talk about Suicide, and about possibly doing it together. Has a slightly supernatural twist too, although it could also easily be mental illness causing people to see things rather than some supernatural force. if anything else, out of those mangas this one could easily be called an literary valued work, due to the fact that it has a lot of sensitive topics that deals with today's youth, and it sure made me think.).

the Japanese name of it is called Justus Circle, easily translated to Suicide club. just in case you needed help finding it.
it's exemetely hard to find though.. especially in the bookstores. proably due to it being very sensitive in nature that the translation companies isn't even touching it yet. I actually downloaded it online in fact. unlike Battle Royale, this doesn't have a lot of violence, expect for the couple murder scenes.

I saw the movies of Suicide Club and Battle Royale, and I had no clue there were manga versions. That's interesting to know.

death_monk666
Do you know how hypocritical that is? You are looking at mainstream manga! even a newb at manga could tell you that. And many manga have literary value...if not here than in Japan and China were it can from. What do you think they call comics with "superheroes" in Japan? CR*P!!! How do I know this? Simple. They have a different audience than us. See? They wish to please their audience, not ours, so they see literary value in a different way than the basic hero-saves-damsal way Americans do. Like any good book, manga has a value that needs to bee deeply examined for. Yugioh is about friendship(anyone can tell that); but what else? Good over evil; that good loses sometimes; to trust yourself...etc...etc.

That's not literary value, my friend.

Check out this list:
Comics With Literary Merit/Value

No manga there. Of course, that's only one person's view, but if you ask any college professor what makes literature literature, they'll give you an explanation which can apply to some American comics (eg. Watchmen) but not to any manga that I've seen so far.

Then again, from a Japanese Person's point of view comics which have won the Osamu Tezuka Cultural Award [en.wikipedia.org] might be considered to have literary merit.

Hawk
I saw the movies of Suicide Club and Battle Royale, and I had no clue there were manga versions. That's interesting to know.

the mangas actually came first, and then there was movies made on them.

I suppose because we're in America, we have a bias toward American comics, because we have access to EVERY American comic, and that includes stuff that's excellent but not particularly mainstream. However this still doesn't explain why a bunch of American kids think manga is so much better than American comics. Perhaps because manga is cheaper and therefore more readily available to these kids? Or because the mainstream American comics industry seems to be digging a grave for itself with an overload of badly written superhero books*?

I don't know. But it seems like mangas popularity is growing in America while American comic's readership is declining. A sad twist of fate, but what is the reason behind it?


*Anything by Robert Kirkman nonwithstanding.

ccs1989
I suppose because we're in America, we have a bias toward American comics, because we have access to EVERY American comic, and that includes stuff that's excellent but not particularly mainstream. However this still doesn't explain why a bunch of American kids think manga is so much better than American comics. Perhaps because manga is cheaper and therefore more readily available to these kids? Or because the mainstream American comics industry seems to be digging a grave for itself with an overload of badly written superhero books*?

I don't know. But it seems like mangas popularity is growing in America while American comic's readership is declining. A sad twist of fate, but what is the reason behind it?


*Anything by Robert Kirkman nonwithstanding.

Seriously though, I think that manga is getting popular because generally speaking, they have more engaging CHARACTERS as compared to american made cartoons.

Ive seen people here say that manga tend to have repetitive looking characters and cliche storylines but as long as you take a character and develop him//her properly, everyone is gonna love or hate you for it... depending if they like your character or not.


Manga Ive also noticed has a certain degree of ability to influence other people's art. 60% of drunkduck comics have art styles that are variants of Manga. But not all of em consider themselves manga or are neutral about it.

JKline

ccs1989
I don't know. But it seems like mangas popularity is growing in America while American comic's readership is declining. A sad twist of fate, but what is the reason behind it?


*Anything by Robert Kirkman nonwithstanding.

Milion dollar question! I do think that many manga are good at delivering an experience that isn't often found in american comics, at least in the stuff that is most available (but that also works the other way I think). And I think somewhere along the line the writers all started modeling their super hero books after the Authority. Cynical dark stuff aimed at adult males. There isn't much like Naruto being produced by DC or Marvel. I always say that AMerican comics need their own Harry Potter or Naruto equivalent rather than more adult super hero dramas. Manga is cheap and accessible, has anime tie-ins has the advantage of being something foreign and "exotic." It mixes cartoonyness and dynamicism and kinetic energy quite well. There is a ton of manga written by women. And even if the concepts get repeated they still have new wrapping and ideas rather than just the same corporate owned character being kept alive decade after decade. If the stereo type of comics is Superman then maybe you should try drawing more attention to the other comics instead of just serving up Superman year after year. You need quality novelty that will get people to say, "Oh this isn't what I thought comics were." and get in front of people. Many of the more interesting comics aren't even available unless you pre-order them through a comic store so how can you expect them to get into the non-comic reader's hands?

Just my 2 cents.

Dang. Good point. Of course, there are American comics that try to move away from the cynical adult male demographic, but they certainly aren't being distributed and marketed as much as the Japanese ones.

Egads. Just who is this insightful new J. Kline character?

~IJ

I have also noticed how manga is easier to find than comics, if i go into the nearest reasonably sized city (peterborough) every other bookshop I go into stocks at least some manga of some kind where as maybe one in four might stock comics, and if i actually want to buy a GOOD comic I need an ancient treasure map three pack mules and thirty stout men with mountaineering equipment, It is definatley accurate to say that manga is more accesible than other forms of comics.

Tater Salad

Aurora Moon

Hawk
I saw the movies of Suicide Club and Battle Royale, and I had no clue there were manga versions. That's interesting to know.

the mangas actually came first, and then there was movies made on them.

And the novel of BR came out before the manga.

there's a novel on battle royale? neat, I'll have to check that out :)

The reason that American comics seem to be dying off in opposition to manga might also have something to do with the fact that I can buy 11 manga trade paper backs for the same price of 4 American full-color trade paper-backs. And that's part of why manga is destroying the American comics industry.

See, I think people think it's the characters and non-superhero plots that get people. It's not. It's cost. No kid can afford an American single issue comic packed with ads and priced at $3, no matter how good the coloring is within it. They can afford a $10 (or $8, if it's Shonen Jump) book with 200 pages and no ads which will still come out monthly, because it's already finished it's run in Japan.

The Japanese have one-uped us. They produce their work faster, have a greater audience, and therefore there are many professional manga creators in Japan. Bring those to America, and you can release 200 new pages on a bi-monthly basis. Cheap and marketable. Great strategies.

All Americans have to show for it are (sometimes) better plotlines, and of course fantastic colors. But it seems like kids these days don't really care if a comic is colored or not. They want plot and lots of pages! So American comics now have a much smalled audience which is confined to older males who appreciate good coloring and quality glossy paper. But as more and more kids grow up with manga, we're gonna see less and less American comics. The industry can either change to accomodate this, or die off.

Yeesh, that sounded scary. And this is the biz I want to go into one day. Doesn't sound like a whole lot of job security. :(

Hm, perhaps I over-reacted. Still, I see less and less people my age buying American comics, and more and more people walking around with manga.

Tater Salad
[

what

I guess you don't buy a lot. You usually don't get a whole lot in those volumes, and most often you have to buy the whole series.

I really wish you would get away from your predisposition against the Japanese and everything they have, because it's getting irritating.

I don't have a 'predisposition' against everything Japanese. I own way more manga then I do American comics, own a good amount of anime and anime soundtracks, and I went to Japan last summer on a class trip and loved it. It's a great country with a lot of great stuff (although they're a bit too conservative). However it seems like their healithier comics industry is overwealming the American comics industry. Although maybe manga sells to people who would never buy American comics anyway. Who knows? (JKLine, I'm looking at you.)

Besides, if it weren't for manga lincensing I wouldn't be able to read Berserk and Hellsing which are excellent.

Personally I hope publishers like Image, Avatar Press, and Antartic Press continue to grow. But I also like Tokyopop's choice to publish certain American comic artist who create interesting, if manga styled, stories.

One of my experiences has been that there are assumptions based on first impressions.

People don't like anime because, in America, at least, everyone assumes that they're all like Pokemon, Yugioh, and Dragonball. And, tell you the truth, unless you're around the age of seven, a geek/nerd, or a "child at heart," that kind of image doesn't pander to you.

Added, people don't like anime because it's animated. I have many friends who won't watch really great shows--JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE CARTOONS! And here, in America, along with most of the Western hemisphere, cartoons are known as kid-fare. And think--If you have an average mind, you're more concerned with your reputation than your happiness(Coincidentally, because they think their reputation will bring them happiness), and if you're known to watch cartoons, the average citizen will think you're immature. Even if you're not.

And people don't like manga because either they don't like anime and therefore don't like manga either, or because they're comics, and the general reputation is that comics are for kids and nerds.

Frankly, the matter is that people are prejudiced, when the fact of the matter is that each and every comic is different.

yeah I hate people who goes solely by first impressions only.

I had a diffculity getting an job because of that before I was in college (I was 19, saving up for college).. (granted, it wasn't the only reason, but it played a large part)..
I was constantly having to pull out my ID and such at job interviews to prove that I was an adult.. snice my appearance makes me seem like I'm 15-16 years old or something.
they tend to assume that because I LOOK young, that I might also act the part and be immature and everything.

I see it all the time... like if an older person, like 39 years old were to see an 20-year-old boy that just got out of college, didn't get to buy adult-looking clothes like an suit but still were dressed up decently for an business interview...then that 20-year-old boy might look like a teenager to some who can't tell the difference between an high school student and an college student that just got out of college (because face it, they do look simlar)..
then that older person might say that he "looks undependable" just because of his young appearance.

so that older person doesn't even give that person a chance.

to me, that's the same of unfairness that I see being applied to everything, even media.

say, for example, movies. sometimes previews dont do movies justice at all. like if there was an movie that had drama but no horror, but in the previews it looked creepy somewhat, so people who loves drama movies but hates horror movies might miss out on it just because of the preview, not knowing that they missed out on seeing one of the best drama movies of the year.

so that's why I always tend to give everything a chance first.....get to know that person/or something, get a feel for it.. before I can judge it.

death_monk666
...I actually subsribe to Shonen Jump and if you subscribe, it is about $6 an issue...and there are adds...just not in the middle of important scenes...And it does have an influence...

Actually, if you subscribe, it's about $2 an issue. If you buy it a shop it's about $5. Anyway, $2 for 350 pages of comics with a few ads (for stuff you might want) thrown in there? Great deal! However American comic have 10 pages of ads in a 22 page book. And most of it's for crap I'd never buy.

death_monk666
that is why I am startled when people say "I hate manga..." for reasons that it has no plot (or the like)...Everything planned out has some fame to it when it dies out. Likewise, manga has plot or else people would rather pick up a book and read it than manga. So you get:
-Plot..
-more action in one manga than in three american comics...
-less advertisements...
Older people would have 2 reasons:
-They are too old to accept them(like freedom for colored people)

That, my friend, is one of the worst analogies that I have EVER heard.

Your thoughts aren't coherent at all. Is English not your native language or what?

Kurisu
And people don't like manga because either they don't like anime and therefore don't like manga either

While this is true in some cases, I just wanted to point out that anime and manga do not go hand and hand for every fan.
By that I mean, not all fans of one are fans of the other by default because one is based on the other, or whatever.

For example:
I dont care for manga much myself...
I am, however, an obsessive anime addict.

Its not that I hate manga though... I just cant get into it...
Sure I own a few fun yet obscure series from Japan to help me practice reading and comprehension though I hardly finish them.
I just purchased all 33 volumes of Ushio and Tora in Japanese for only $20, but I havent even touched the Hameln series I bought over a year ago.

But I miss the vibrant colors and motions and acting and music that comes with anime. That and I get irritated with translations evenmore so than when I watch anime because I can ignore the subtitles.
I also agree though, that in some cases, the manga is better, but half the time I wouldnt know... I just like anime more. *shrug*

I also came really close to making my comic Oni No Noroi "manga" style, but I couldnt bring myself to do it. I went with the boring, but easy to follow standard square panel strip...

and Im not impressed by most toning (overdone and more and more obnoxious and obvious) on "manga" webcomics or the style most of the time. Some are amazing, like those by Eunice_P, but I find most dull artistically with boring, overdone plots and dont read them.. With credit to them, Japanese style faces are very hard to pull off. Im not very good at it myself, but it always helps to try.


Wow, I hope this doesnt make me sound snooty ^^;
Cause Im friendly.. *nod*

death_monk666
Sorry, I meant that white people did not accept colored people having rights and that is like people who know the old superman comics passing on a dislike for manga...I had to submit it as that because I had something I was late for...I hate having so many interuptions on saturdays...sorry for any confusion...and I am in America...(and I hate it, god d*mn stubborn country!)

I cannot make out any point in your post. White people not accepting the rights of people of color is like people who like superman comics hating manga? WHAT?!

That makes no sense.

Manga has to be looked at as an art style and a literature style. Some want words to stay in books some want both at once...

I'll overlook the improper grammar and syntax this time, but the point you're trying to make is still invalid. Some manga could be considered literature, but that doesn't mean "Generic Shonen-Manga #6003" should be considered as such. That's like saying that every piece of fiction is good literature.

Also, comics aren't a 'literature style'. Do you even know what that means?

ccs1989

death_monk666
Sorry, I meant that white people did not accept colored people having rights and that is like people who know the old superman comics passing on a dislike for manga...I had to submit it as that because I had something I was late for...I hate having so many interuptions on saturdays...sorry for any confusion...and I am in America...(and I hate it, god d*mn stubborn country!)

I cannot make out any point in your post. White people not accepting the rights of people of color is like people who like superman comics hating manga? WHAT?!

That makes no sense.

death monk is quite terrible at descriptions and explanations.
I think what he meant is there's all sorts of people who are used to things being an certain way, and who doesn't like change....
so say there's people who grew up reading superman comics, and loves the super-muscular bodies, small eyes look...
so them coming across manga, with it's long-haired males that isn't overly muscular and the big eyes... it would sorta be quite the shock to their system.. that their only reaction would be to reject it.
"argh! those alien-looking big eyes scare me! I want to go back to my own old comics that I'm used to!" they wouldn't get past the fact that the artwork wasn't just something they were used to to be able to give the characters and the story a chance.