why is it that some people hate manga so much?

to be more exact, hating people works that are done manga-style?

one thing that they often say is that the person is trying to copy somebody else's style, such as an japanese mangaka (manga artist)..
but in a lot of instances that isn't nessicarly true...

after all, there's so many different styles of Manga-- the cartoony style with the big eyes, the semi-realstic style, and the realstic style.
here, let me show you examples:




just looking at the two you can tell the two have competely different styles.
in fact if you compare between artists and such, by looking closely then you'll see that each artist has thier own distictive style.

now I could understand people thinking it's bad if an person was trying to emulate some artist they love, and stuck to only that style instead of trying out new things..

but half the people I know who does manga work, inducing myself, doesn't seem to do that....

in fact I'll do different styles outside of the manga style... that's just I simply choose the manga look for my comic because I like the look of it.
http://www.drunkduck.com/Magical_Mania/
does this look like I'm copying the style off somebody else?

the other thing that I don't get is that people hate manga just because it's "trendy".
to me, that's about as dumb as the people out there who loved an band until it became "popular"...
it's because they wanted to do cool underground stuff and be Unique from everyone else, but when people find out how great and amazing the things they do, then they can't be unique anymore. so they start hating the things that they used to "love".
I don't think manga is overrated... I think the bookstores and such is simply now selling to groups of people who oringally had to give away an arm or a leg just to be able to import it straight from japan, or to download transtled verisons illegally off the net.
where there's a demand, the stores sells them. simple as that.

Hating manga for the art is stupid and narrowminded, that's like hating video games for the not so good graphics. But hey, some people are like that.

My theory on why some people might hate manga is for the writing. For one, many of the mangas out there are pretty much the same concept (not saying all of them, there are some truly original out there), repeated over and over. And that gets tiring.

In fact, I was getting tired of reading manga because of the somewhat medicore plots and characters, that is, until I read Great Teacher Onizuka. Which just blew me away. It had everything, well written plots, likeable characters, and great art.

.: Myxomatosis :.

I dislike manga for a LOT of reasons. Now, I think you made several good points, about individual artists having different styles, and the reasons stores sell so much and whatnot, but here are my reasons for antagonizing:

1. A lot of it is similar, quite like the way Disney cartoons are similar. I mean, the fact that there are "how to draw manga style" books, and people write tutorials for drawing things - sometimes very specifically: I once saw a tutorial on DA on how to draw manga style bangs - shows there is obviously some weight to a the existence of a universal style.

2. Many people intentionally copy manga styles by copying straight from mangas. I know I did this for a time, and that's not developing a style, that's not learning how to draw, it's fitting yourself into a mold that, granted, you may become very skilled at, but is not your own. I know exactly how it feels: you end up thinking in terms of "Oh, and now I draw this curve this way because that's how I learned to copy it" and you're not thinking outside those boundaries. After extended periods of time and dedication, you DO eventually grow out of those constraints, but you're not working with your own style.

When you create your own style and don't try to -copy-, but instead let yourself be influenced, you create something entirely your own. To illustrate, my own style will always be influenced by Jhonen Vasquez, because when ZIM first came out I was obsessed with copying the style. I was, what, 13 or something, and it all sucked, but many elements that I drilled into my head are still there. HOWEVER, looking at my style now, it would probably take a LOT of effort to make the connections to Mr. Vasquez. That's because I nurtured my own style, and did not try to continue to copy his. I feel that a lot of amateur manga-style comics just aren't doing that.

3. People get elitist about manga. I know several people who just refuse to aknowledge that other types of comics are good, refuse to accept any other cartoony style as being artistically worthy, and - this is the worst to me - put any manga on a pedestal just because it's Japanese. It makes it very easy to dismiss manga, even if it isn't fair to the comic itself. This guy I'm friends with has basically ruined manga for me because he's so obsessive and elitist. I know it's not good to base a fandom off its fans, but it is very, very hard to ignore.

4. A lot of the stories (both professional and amateur - again, the amateurs copying something just because it's there) just seem overdone, fraught with angst, obnoxiously cute, painfully cliché, or otherwise unoriginal and annoying. And unfortunately, anything that IS original and good seems to be crawling with fans who hyperinflate its merits. Again, shouldn't judge something by its fans, but (relating back to how you related it to bands becoming popular) when something becomes more popular, a broader spectrum of people are fans, and oftentimes this means the "original" fan, or the fan who actually likes the series and isn't just getting in on it because it's popular, has to associate with people they might feel ruins the series. Again, citing ZIM (I know, I know, not even manga/anime), I became very very tired of the community after a while, because I noticed how obnoxious it got as the popularity grew. I think it's just something that happens when large numbers of people like something.

5. The art itself. Some of it, I do confess, is some intensely beautiful artwork, but somethings, and things unique to individual artists, just annoy me. The way some artists draw the eyes SO large and empty it makes everyone look soulless; exaggerated legs and breasts; super-cute chibi faces and body proportions; the same series of expressions and exclamations. Granted, not every manga has all these aspects, but they're rampant enough. And it wouldn't even matter - I just don't like them, period.

...yep. That's my two cents ... or dollar fifty.

I think it's hard to pin manga-hatred down to one reason, but I can give you a running list of reasonable possibilities:

- Purely taste-related. People like and hate different styles, and manga just may not fit their tastes.

- Subject matter. People who learn a manga style sometimes also copy other themes and story elements from manga. The thing is, coming from them, that same stuff seems cliche and hackneyed. One example is an American who does a high school drama about Japanese kids in a Japanese school. What does this American know about Japanese school life except what they've grazed from other manga?

- The trendiness. You nailed that one. But wanting to be different is not such a sinister thing. A comic that does not stand out will not be read. In a sea of manga-inspired comics, a non-manga comic will be noticed more easily.

- Personal bigotry. This is probably the least rational reason. Some people just simply hate manga. Maybe because it has temporarily dethroned the western comics they love. Maybe because they never gave it a proper chance. Maybe because they're still stuck in erroneous mindset that it's all "violent porno comics."

- Manga art will not get you a job. For those who hope to get a job in the industry (be it comics, animation, or art), having a heavily manga-influenced art style will not help you get a job. Industry professionals are not looking for manga artists when the stuff they import from Japan is more genuine and more likely to be successful. Manga-inspired things from America (like Teen Titans) come from multi-skilled artists who can emulate anime style to the required degree. When the anime fad dies down, they'll still have a job. American manga Artists who hope to go to Japan and succeed will be extremely disappointed with the way the Japanese industry treats foreigners.

- It is sometimes perceived as requiring less skill. You'd be wrong if you said good manga art requires less skill. There are some manga masters that really know their stuff and it's because their manga style really has a backbone of true artistic study and anatomical knowlege. However, manga does offer a multitude of shortcuts for beginners to have more attractive art right away. It is probably this that attracts so many new artists and also draws the previously mentioned criticism.


Those are kind of just off the top of my head. I know it sounds a little negative toward manga in general, but I was trying to see the most logical reasons a person wouldn't like manga. I think people should be open minded and even if manga doesn't fit their taste, they shouldn't spread hatred around just to make people mad... because that's just stupid.
Having come from a heavily manga-influenced style myself, I've learned that a style is a jacket you can put on but if you have no substance inside (like real artistic knowlege, proportion, good writing, believable characters) then it doesn't matter what style you have... your art will be crap with a nice, pretty jacket.
I'm actually moving away from manga style because it won't get me a job and I want my work to stand out. I don't think it's wrong of me to do that, but I also try to maintain a healthy view of manga: that it can be good and enjoyable, even if it's trendy. And if the substance inside it's good, then the manga style is just the vehicle it's using.

Reading backwards hurts my brain, seriously, i cant read manga for long periods of time because it fucks up my head, it makes me start reading everything backwards and it's fucked up.

I also hate when Westerners imitate manga, manga isnt that great, comic wise I far prefer western comics. I also utterly dispise anything that imitates japan so much IT MAKES YOU READ IT BACKWARDS, seriously, fuck that shit.

origionality is awsome, ripping off japan isnt.

death_monk666
Nice points...As with my example earlier, if you are the german, you may hate the latin-american person since you know "he" is latin-american...The bigotry you said...

...If they were in a restaraunt with mostly germans, then everyone would most-likely go to the latin- and african-americans...
Yes, those are good reasons...

you my friend, are as they say in the trade, "talking arse"

it isn't that we don't like manga, or because we don't like Japan, it's not even because we don't like different things, hell, we are comic people, we can tell the difference between a few art style sub groups. What we don't like is when every Tom, Dick and Harry from any old country makes a "manga", we value origionality and inventivness, not people using an art style that is vastly over rated all the freaking time for no goddamned reason.

Doing something because it's trendy isn't what comics are about, its about making something awsome and trying to be origional at the same time.

People don't hate manga, people may dislike it, but that is a personal choice, what the majority of people dont like is when the franchise gets abused.

HM. I do agree about the reading back wards thing...

with web comics on line, you don't really NEED THAT... especially if your target is aimed at English speakers who reads to the right.
the only reason why the manga books in the bookstores reads to the left is to prevent pages from being "flipped"... which used to happen a lot when the companies were translating manga. so in a sense that was inferring with the artwork. for example, if an character was wearing an shirt that said something in English.. then it wouldn't make sense anymore because it had been flipped around. it was the little things like that, that got fans complaining. so they went for that, and also to import a little bit of Japanese culture in that sense.

with English web comics, you don't need that at all... which is the reason why I don't do that right to left thing for my own comics, despite the fact that it's drawn manga style.

I do agree that it's idiotic for some artists to do that just because they think it's "cool".

HM. Suzi, you do have a point about the Elitists..
those people annoy me too... I have some American comics that I actually like. that's just my tastes lies mainly in manga, because they have a lot of genres that I like.. whereas 90% of American comics are about Superheroes. I like superheroes, but there's a point where I just want to read about other things besides superheroes, you know?
however, I'm not gonna dismiss American comics altogether... for example, I love the Sandman series.. and I want to go get more of Gaiman's works. I also love the Fable comic book.

As for the repeated plot lines.. thankfully I've never encountered that.. but possibly because I don't tend to stick with just one genre that I like.
for example, if I read nothing but vampire Manga, then possibly I would start to notice the same plots and so on forth.. its sorta the same deal when you watch movies, you know? if you're a fan of Horror Movies then you'll notice how many times some plots gets processed over and over in different movies out there. like a lot of zombie movies are basically the same, when you think about it. The same for Romantic movies, and so on forth.
is there really such a thing as an truly Original idea? I don't think so. I think it's more in the way how you lay it out and how you write it that catches people's attentions. if you don't do it well, then it'll seem like a hackneyed plot.
My interests lies in different genres of every kind. plus I'm also very picky about what sort of manga that I'm gonna get.. I just don't take any manga book off the selves without browsing though it first and reading the back of it for the summaries.
I've never gotten the manga books that had the "Cuteness" factor, like with cuddly animals and whatnot. so I don't really get the ones that has the oxbonius cuteness factor at all.

I do'nt know. I don't like it much. It just seems inherently sexist or something. And sexualised. And the fact that even though there are several styles, it all is 'the same' somehow.

Okay. Most have been said before, but here are IAN JAY'S FIVE MAIN REASONS FOR NOT BEING INTO MANGA ALL THAT MUCH:

1. It doesn't put much emphasis on individuality. Its visual language is so restricting that individual artists rarely get the credit they deserve. (And manga enthusiasts will fight tooth and nail against this statement. But the reason they'll disagree is because, well, they're enthusiasts. They've seen a lot of manga and have become experts in the field, and can tell each artist's quirks apart from each other, unlike us slackjawed yokels who only see it all as vaguely Japanese stuff warmed over.)
2. The reading-stuff-right-to-left thing just throws me off. I'm sorry, but I have to agree with Mimarin on this one.
3. A comic series in the U.S. might fill about two to three trade paperbacks-- eight to ten, if it's really epic. A comic series in Japan might fill twenty, thirty trade paperbacks. This is a drain on the wallet, people.
4. Manga (as well as all other things Japanese right now) is popular. Everyone is reading it. Therefore, it must not be cool. It's simple trendsetter's logic, which brings us to our last point...
5. Manga fans creep me out. Seriously. I mean, there are people who rather enjoy reading manga, and are cool about it, but those types are few and far between. Most comic fans can either be split into two groups: those who despise manga, and those who worship it like unto a god. I mean full blown obsessed here. (Like, they'll walk into school with one of those Naruto metal-headband things-- which, incidentally, I used to think were some hip young version of the "magnetic health bracelets" you always see on early-morning infomercials-- and wholeheartedly believe that they won't receive any weird looks.) I don't get their whole "Japan is better than everything else" elitist subculture thing they've got goin' on right now. ...And what's with their burning desire to dress up as manga characters? I mean, I recently read and liked Craig Thompson's Carnet de Voyage, but I'm not gonna go to a convention and dress up like Craig. That would be... well... it would be just God dang creepy! Do you realize how creepy you are, manga fans? Do you even begin to consider it?!?

Okay... breathe, Ian. Breathe.

heehhhhh...

...hhhhuuhh.

Sorry. I got a little bit carried away, there. But still: I'm not into manga now, and I probably never will be. Indie and web comics are my scene. My apologies to manga's fans. I will say that there are some stunningly good works in the field, but I really wish there wasn't so much crap that said good works are buried in.

~IJ

Tundra
I do'nt know. I don't like it much. It just seems inherently sexist or something. And sexualised. And the fact that even though there are several styles, it all is 'the same' somehow.

eh? how so?

a lot of the manga I read doesn't seem sexist or sexualized to me. well, expect for Dears (which certianly have it own risque moments).
unless you're talking about the occisonal nudity where some person walks in on somebody taking a bath or changing by accident, or something along that line. and even then I don't see how that's sexualized or sexist. :?

in case you were wondering the mangas I read is:

Petshop of Horrors: Dark manga about an dectivive and an chiense guy. some girls in it too but they don't actually have big breasts. in fact one of the things I like about the manga is how everyone has their own body shapes, like some girls will be actually be a little bit flat, and some other girls curvy but no huge, unrealstic tits.

Amazing Agent Luna: About an Girl breed and raised by the gorvenment to be the ulimiate agent and undercover ninja. Some forgien power has somehow intfierated an local school, and is using the staff there for all sorts of werid expertments.. so Luna gets sent in as an local student to find out what they're up to. no sexualized moments here, or no sexist moments... a little bit of an school drama, but they don't focus on that so much. instead they focus on how Luna manages to fight all those agents and such.

Arcana: Fantasy series about an girl who can speak to dragons and other creatures when other humans can't. sent on an jounery by the king along with two other guys to try to save thier city from ruin. she's still very young, so she hardly has breasts. she's also very tomboyish, so often she's mistaken as an boy even though she doesn't actually crossdress as one or anything. people just sorta assume that on thier own.. but then she always tells them. no sexual stuff here... unless you count the girl's little crush on one of the men, even though they're way older than she is and have no interst in her at all.

Excel Saga: comedy.. full of gags, puns, evil overlords, aliens and one truly insane girl. not really anything sexual in this manga series.. and if there is, it's made fun of so much to the point where it wouldn't even hint at anything erotic.

and so on forth.
honestly, people keep on bring up the sex and the sexist stuff... I swear, it must be like they're somehow reading mangas I haven't even seen. and I read ALOT of mangas. I just haven't listed all of them here.. just don't have the time.

in fact, the only sexist/sexual manga I can think of is Love Hina, where the girls keep on picking on that poor guy just because he's male... and where he keeps on having accidents that causes the girls to think that he's a pervert.

honestly, can anybody please give me actual names to the mangas that they find sexual or sexist? anybody? because I certainly haven't seen any manga that was that way that made people think that the majority of manga was sexist or sexual.

I don't dislike manga, but it's very much the way I don't dislike sprite comics. There are way too many badly/lazily done that make the whole genre look bad.

I read some manga regularly, so I know there's some great stuff out there.

However, if I had a peeve with it, I have to say that manga has a way of 'feminizing" their male characters. It seems to be a standard to make a man look like women. :? I'm sure there are plently of exceptions to what seems to be this rule, though. Culture Shock, for instance . Though I don't know if one would classify CS as manga. GoA has been called manga-like on occasion too, so I think the classification is pretty loose in some peoples' eyes.

I don't like chibi, usually though. :wink:

.: SpANG! :.

I LOVE manga, Inuyasha, Ranma, Full Metal Alchemist, Naruto, Trigun, Fruit baskets, Ect. i dont get why people hate this stuff, its got good plot lines, some of the books are made with english words.....well redone with english words.... and the pictures are good, who could possibly hate it?

yeah.

I've noticed that some Americans seems to think that Anime and Mangas is way too violent, even though they've never actually really looked at and read the stuff.

and I have to be the one to point out that most American Superheroes in the cartoons and the comics are way more violent.

and I know what you mean about femininzing the male characters.
I don't mind the occasional male looking effeminate, since there is effeminate males in real life.. but it does irk me when nearly EVERY male character in an manga series is Effeminate looking and such for no good reason. that aren't realistic in a way... ^^;;
And this is coming from an girl who loves effeminate-looking, long-haired anime/manga men just because I find them completely hot.
I just think in an good series, there should be variety of men and women.
like some women could be butch, some just in between, and some girly...
the same could be said for males. some are hideously buff, some is wimpy looking, etc...

but then again, what does people really define as feminine anyway? I've seen males with long hair that tended to act in an "macho" manner.. such as being bikers, etc...
yet some other males out there would define all males with long hair to be "girly"... yet I would have to disagree.

and I've seen males call a lot of the men in manga to be very effeminate despite the fact that some of the series that they pointed out was actually full of short-haired, gun-wielding or sword-wielding guys who didn't act like an stereotyped woman in some way.

My drawing style actually derives from manga, mainly from, eep, Pokémon. PLEASE DON'T HIT ME! Many, many times, I tried to draw Ash, and failed, because of the eyes. I found it much easier drawing James, and due to my lack of the ability to remember things well (I was about 8/9 years old at the time), it didn't look anything like it. Pretty soon, the eyes evolved, while the body style stayed about the same. And that's where I am now in drawing. I call my drawing style "Fanga", because I'm like a fan, who knows manga, and like a fang, I take a chunk of it out...?


Anyhoo, I can just change my style by just whipping out different facial features. It's just that easy.

Psst...Ian Jay, want to know how over the edge we can get? My friend had a fore-head protector and two Pure Pwnage T-Shirts to Mufti Day today (Mufti Day: A day where school children in the UK can go to school in their own clothes instead of their uniform in exchange for £1. The money goes to charity). And people thought I looked like Ash Ketchum that day as well for goodness sakes. It's a surf look bitchs!

I like REAL manga and Anime. Stuff like Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Street Fighter. Those guys have talent, they have a specific artstyle.

Unfortunatly we also have the "Pokemon/sailormoon/Yu-gi-oh"" style with everything that comes with it, the crazy expressions and all that over the top stuff. And thats the style that 90% of all Manga fanboys/girls use when making comics it seems.

It used to be fun, but its getting older by the minute. And its just boring to see yet another comic with the same copied "pokemon" look.

I cant say that i hate manga because of it, but its hard finding the diamonds becase of all the shit.

Would have been better if you said "finding diamonds in the rough", that's sounds smoooooooooth.

I guess that the summary here is that manga is good in moderation. In MODERATION. We don't need to depend on it like addicts don't need to run on crack. It's just that it's become so popular, that people start to dislike it, as it is not within moderation. You don't have to like all of it, nor do you have to hate all of it. Or that you have to not like it because it's become mainstream, and you just want to ride against the current. Just go with the flow, but on a different boat. There's no such things as REAL anime and stuff. It's just for different audiences. Nobody has LOVE every single freakin' anime and manga they just come across.

Everyone has a thing that they adore, just adore. You can't blame them for liking it, like they can't blame you for hating it.

Summary of summary: Who cares? Everyone has their own tastes.

AQua_ng
Would have been better if you said "finding diamonds in the rough", that's sounds smoooooooooth.

I guess that the summary here is that manga is good in moderation. In MODERATION. We don't need to depend on it like addicts don't need to run on crack. It's just that it's become so popular, that people start to dislike it, as it is not within moderation. You don't have to like all of it, nor do you have to hate all of it. Or that you have to not like it because it's become mainstream, and you just want to ride against the current. Just go with the flow, but on a different boat. There's no such things as REAL anime and stuff. It's just for different audiences. Nobody has LOVE every single freaking' anime and manga they just come across.

Everyone has a thing that they adore, just adore. You can't blame them for liking it, like they can't blame you for hating it.

Summary of summary: Who cares? Everyone has their own tastes.

I agree there..
I might be a huge anime Fan, but there's even times when I agree that there are some animes that's just plain crap. like it was created solely just to jump on the bandwagon..
like Duel Masters. acckk!!! can you say rip-off Yuigioh with characters that look way too ugly and funky?
the reason why I like Yugioh is because of that whole Egyptian thing.. I love that plot. some fillers with just card playing bores me though.

so just like everything else in the entertainment industry, some of it is really wonderful.. and some are just hits and misses.
and not all of the hits are for everyone. some people actually like the stuff that "missed the mark" so to speak.
of course it all depends on your view of what's a hit and a miss...

AQua_ng
Psst...Ian Jay, want to know how over the edge we can get? My friend had a fore-head protector and two Pure Pwnage T-Shirts to Mufti Day today (Mufti Day: A day where school children in the UK can go to school in their own clothes instead of their uniform in exchange for £1. The money goes to charity). And people thought I looked like Ash Ketchum that day as well for goodness sakes. It's a surf look bitchs!

Well, that's all right. It was the one day out of your entire school year that you didn't have to wear opressive collectivist school uniforms, so it would be a waste not to wear the most outrageous and individual stuff you can find. Now, if you wore your little Ash Ketchum get-up every day for the entire school year... and talked about it constantly to everyone you met, even those who could not possibly give a flying act of coitus... and signed your name as "Aqua Ng, Pokemon Master-In-Training" on even the most official of documents... that is the level of manga fandom that I have observed.

~IJ

PS: You know, hardcore manga fans are such an oddity, I don't see why they aren't used more in the media. You know, like commercials or something...

"Red Stripe! The beer in the creepy little brown bottle! It makes creepy people popular! ...Here, sir. Would you say you are creepy?"

"Well... hhhhhhh... the reason I'm dressed up as Inuyasha is because I think that the se--"

"You are very creepy! Here, hold this."

"N'kay..."

"There! See? Now you are popular! ...Red Stripe: It's beer! Hooray beer!"

"...Hooray... beer?"

"Said the popular man!"

I seem to think much of the same art styles on the internet come from one problem, the major problem of elites or major anime fans.

Everything has to be the same, otherwise it's not cool. You know the simple monkey reaction of, "what is this? I have no idea what this is!" and then "if it's not the same, I must hate it." I have been part of this alienation, my art style, which derived from Love Hina has always come underfire (which, if you know my art style, is some what loose manga). You know things like, "hey, you're not doing the eyes right" or "omg, what is wrong with your characters eyes? they suck, therefore you are suck at drawing manga." While I'm not a great artist, this has led to me to try other things (like focusing on backgrounds, or having a deep hatred for anime fans for instance.)

It's one of the problems that plagues that pseudo-anime show on Nicktoons Network, Kappa Mikey. Hated by anime fans all round (with the exception of some with an open mind) for having cliched plots and cliched characters. The thing people forget about this show is, it's a parody. And from the reactions of the elites in manga, I would say they can't take a fucking joke. I've seen people complain because of the main character being drawn in the American cartoon style (small eyes and large border around) and everyone around him being drawn in the anime style.

The problem with many manga haters comes from the attitude of elites, like the video game culture.

Sure Japan is a cool place (or like most anime fans, Tokyo.) I am some what fascinated by the Blade Runner-esque cityscapes and the high as the sky neon. I'm totally fascinated with their cars, the freeway system, and their technology. Does that mean I want to go to Japan and live there. No. The fuck would they want to do that? I have everything I need here. Sure it would be a fun place to visit.

.: Myxomatosis :.

Some Damn Good manga that doesn't fall into catagories described above include Berserk, Hellsing, and Blade of the Immortal. However those are all comics in magazine's that aren't particularly mainstream. Americans tend to only get the most meanstream stuff. Entire catagories of manga are skipped over when stuff is brought over to America. It's like if Japanese people tried to classify what the American comics industry was like just by reading X-Men, Superman, and Batman. They'd be missing out on a lot of stuff.

Japan's culture is pretty opressive though, so you have to understand that these creators do have a lot of similar cliches. The fanservice one is what really annoys me...

Pretty soon there will be so much manga haters that liking it becomes cool. The circle of life shall continue.

You're only looking at the mainstream stuff, again. Check out some really good American series in the Vertigo line such as 100 Bullets. Or try reading Ex Machina. Comics like these are what makes me have a huge amount of faith in American creators.

Unfortunatly then there's stuff like Frank Miller's All Star Batman and Robin. Probably one of the worst comics in recent memory.

MechaShiva
NO ONE can deny that japaneses stories are the best, the most compelling and sensitive. you can read an x-men or alien comic, and most probable (personal opinion) you don't even feel that intrigued about what's gonna happen in the next issue, it's like it doesn't matter at all. with manga/anime, you must read/watch the next episode RIGHT AWAY!

Okay, yes, I can deny that. I think saying "best" is way too broad a statement. I would say that's a touch of elitism. I'm sure there are many Japanese plots and characterizations that are more compelling and sensitive than some American, but you're stereotyping just as bad (indeed, if not worse) than I was. I've casually read some manga and have never been able to get into it; however, when I was consecutively loaned The Sandman, I was almost physically twitching for the next volume. And they weren't even designed to be that sequential. I think a lot of manga and anime's draw in that respect is clever endings, cliffhangers, unresolved conflicts, etc.

MechaShiva
I also hate when i hear manga haters say manga/anime is just a drawing style, cause that means they don't understand manga at all.. draiwng style is just the foam of a deep ocean (sorry for the cheesiness). real manga lovers know manga's strong point is the sensibility with which stories are told, sensibility that american stories seem fruitlessly struggle to reach and fail miserably.

I would say lumping in all those extra traits just stereotypes manga even more. And again, you're missing a very broad spectrum of American writing, not to mention harping on things in manga/anime that some don't possess, nor would other enthusiasts say are universal.

MechaShiva
Plus i hate manga haters, cause they hate manga/anime, by the wrong reasons, and i agree with Equinox when he says that hating manga/anime is trendy right now, cause IT-IS..so you're not being much better than manga lovers, if you think manga lovers are being trendy too.

I think my reasons were pretty thorough and had nothing to do with being trendy (except the mob mentality). At my school, manga isn't particularly trendy in the general population. And, hell, the one person whose elitism pisses me off the most is one of my best friends, and the weirdest person at school (I can't stress this enough, but it sounds unlikely when you just write it...)

MechaShiva
...japanese market happen to own material with the best quality, but this is easily explainable. japanese people were always known for being self-demanding perfectionist to a crazy extreme, and so is whatever they make. it's simply part of their phillosophy. when your motivation is reaching perfection for a matter of self-improvement and personal realization, you get manga/anime.. when your motivation is having an income by the end of the week, you get american comic.. manga lovers cannot be pointed out and accused for picking the things with more effort and commitment put on them.

I won't say you're elitiist or anything, but I will say I'm sensing a lot of hefty generalizations based purely on personal taste.

Though there is a certain quality put into manga, do you know where you find it at the end of the week? In the trash can. Or, on the doorstep for recycling pickup. It's printed on cheap newsprint and meant to be read through and discarded like any cheap novelette. Manga only finds a permanent home in a Japanese person's house if they REALLY liked it, and they buy a compilation of it on more substantial paper eventually.

Where does an American comic, printed in color on glossy paper, end up after you're done reading it? In a dust jacket with the rest of your collection, if you liked it. Don't tell me western comics don't deal in quality, because most of them give you quality up front. It's something that won't rot in a few years, and it's because they're making something they hope you'll keep and treasure.

MechaShiva
NO ONE can deny that japaneses stories are the best, the most compelling and sensitive. you can read an x-men or alien comic, and most probable (personal opinion) you don't even feel that intrigued about what's gonna happen in the next issue, it's like it doesn't matter at all. with manga/anime, you must read/watch the next episode RIGHT AWAY!

Please don't get offended when I say this but that is PURELY your point of view, based on your personal tastes. There is no way you can say all Japanese stories are inherently BETTER than all western stories, since it's a mixed bag on both sides and the quality of a story is so depent on taste and what you've seen before.

I watched as people around me gushed over the brilliance of Inuyasha... They loved the stories and characters, and insisted there was some intrinsic quality in its story telling that you CANNOT find in western comics and animation. So I sat down and watched it (many episodes, in fact) and found that I HATED it. The story was drivel composed of trite "collect all the _____ for ultimate power" theme with stereotype characters mixed in. The parts my friends thought were so deep came off as pretentious bullcrap to me.

Of course, if I had generalized and thought all anime was stupid, I never would have seen stuff I liked... like GTO, FLCL, and others. It's just proof that blanket statements don't belong in a discussion like this. I'm willing to bet that if you weren't so convinced that western stuff is automatically worse, you might actually find something you like.

Mamirin-Chan
Eh...And japanese people just hate the western cartoon, some how for the same reason. :-D

Well, not really. South Park is quite popluar in Japan, as was The Incredibles. Much of what Disney makes is popular over there also.

Why? I don't know. Maybe because they are well written?

.: Myxomatosis :.

Myxomatosis

Mamirin-Chan
Eh...And japanese people just hate the western cartoon, some how for the same reason. :-D

Well, not really. South Park is quite popluar in Japan, as was The Incredibles. Much of what Disney makes is popular over there also.

Why? I don't know. Maybe because they are well written?

I don't know if this is true or not, but I heard that the earliest recognizably anime/manga style art was based off of early Disney movies like Snow White. Again, dunno if it's true, but if it is, kind of interesting/ironic, isn't it? :wink:

MechaShiva
Manga is as commercial as you can get, i agree.. i was disctincting 2 inner personal processes. please don't confuse the producers with the artists...
i agree producers would look for the best way to sell the product, make money and stuff, but even the producers will do their task in a japanese way. but the important here are the artists and their level of concern and commitment. a japanese person would be ready to put a bullet in their head if they fail acheiving their goal, cause there's a huge load of honor involved, and honor goes before life itself in the japanese culture. an american comic artists, would spill coffee, chocolate cake, manure on their sketches and they would just shrink his shoulders at it..for example.. it.. it's just a matter of culture and eductaction and there's nothing anyone one of us can do about it. usa and japan are 2 different countries, which have different cultures, and we all know that. japanese community take concepts of commitment, self-improvement, perfection and honour to the next level, and we can see that reflected in everything they do... even manga/anime. that's-an-undeniable-fact. in a general way of approaching the issue. it's a general way to see it. i'm not claiming NO american artist can do well, and a every single japanese maga artist rules, cause that'd be damn foolish.. i'm explaing my point of view in the most simple way. of course there must be commited artists in drunk duck, as there must be who don't give a shit. and some are probably more commited that those who already got a job as a comic artist. sorry to those that took any offence.

Wow, I don't know which point to attack first. The stereotype that all japanese people are honor bound by some "Bushido Code" even in the modern day, or the fact that this guy seems to have COMPLETELY reversed his own point in the first sentence.

By the way, if you were explaining your point in a "simple way" you'd use at least a semblence of proper grammer and spelling. And stop using ".." instead of periods.

By the way, this does seem to be a debate thread. The talking points of argument are quickly becoming apparent.

If you're going to look on both sides of the Ocean, however, to judge how each country sizes up, great stuff in the East include Akira, Berserk (maybe), and of course the works of Osamu Tezuka. Even the ancient drawings of Hokusai can be said to be inspiring, as they told a story which inspired later creators. Hokusai seems to be the first creator of sequential art in Japan.

Over here in America, the great works have been created more recently. Watchmen, Maus, Ghost World, and then there's some really great mainstream comics like Sandman and some short series like Origin and 1602.

I like American comics because they've developed into deeper fields, so we get 'graphic novels'. Several comics are being read in schools now. This includes Maus and (sometimes) Watchmen. Find me a place in Japan where graphic novels are taught in schools...and I'll be amazed. Although everyone reads comics over there I don't think they've considered the literary value these things can hold.

Alright, I kind of went off on a tangent there, but you get my point.

I agree pretty far along with Ian Jay on this. Manga fans are creepy.
also, I had no idea you were supposed to read those things right to left.
that would explain why i never understood what was going on.
Besides, I LIKE the old superhero comics...

Let's just blame it all on pop culture.

Can we blame it on Canada?