No, this isn't some hygenic product we're talking about here. ;)

After being astonished that this series is now being reinstated, I nearly jumped straight to purchasing the new DS title, Curse of the Sinistrals. I remember it being one of my favorite RPGs of the classic days, something that actually kept me from really getting into the FF series.

But I've been disappointed with reboots before, so I thought I'd ask if anyone has bought this game? I've been holding out for quite some time - and the very few that have played it (critics, I mean) have said positive things about it. I'd like to see what you all thought too though, to see if it actually lives up to it's name!

I am happy to see they did away with turn-based combat. Back then I loved that stuff, but it's becoming a tired form of fighting by this point.

Turn-based combat can work just fine, it's just something that is long overdue for some modernization. The technology is there, just not the willingness to use it. We're still stuck in the 16-bit era of turn-based mechanics. The Japanese still seem to get a kick out of the old school style, but I don't think it would be that hard to bring them over to something more modern. The problem is that developers think modern means Western and our ADD addled gamers want fast action button mashers and FPSs that require no thinking. Turn-based games need to go in the opposite direction and actually push more advanced tactics and force the player to consider their actions. While that's the argument many use to defend turn-based RPGs, it is rarely the reality within the genre.

Regarding the subject at hand, though, I haven't played the game, so I wouldn't know if it's any good. I'm still working on unlocking everything in Rock Band 3, and then it's on to Fist of the Northstar: Ken's Rage (honestly, I can't think of a better franchise to get the Musou treatment).

I remember playing Lufia on the SNES when I was a kid. I rented it, and therefore didn't get very far. It became lost among the SNES-era RPGs of the time and I had pretty much forgotten it until now. The fact that they've brought the series back for the DS comes as a surprise to me. I haven't heard anything about the game's quality, though.

isukun
Turn-based combat can work just fine, it's just something that is long overdue for some modernization. The technology is there, just not the willingness to use it. We're still stuck in the 16-bit era of turn-based mechanics. The Japanese still seem to get a kick out of the old school style, but I don't think it would be that hard to bring them over to something more modern. The problem is that developers think modern means Western and our ADD addled gamers want fast action button mashers and FPSs that require no thinking. Turn-based games need to go in the opposite direction and actually push more advanced tactics and force the player to consider their actions. While that's the argument many use to defend turn-based RPGs, it is rarely the reality within the genre.

Yeah, Japan's stubborn adherence to old mechanics is what made me quit RPGs (for the most part). They're locked into what they think is tradition, but it pretty much boils down to using fire on an ice monster and not hitting the snail monster while it's in its shell. I could enjoy a turn-based RPG again if they introduced new enough concepts to make me feel like I was using strategy again. I guess that's why I still sort of enjoy the team-based "tactics" RPGs.

Yeah, Lufia, if you were to go back and play it now, would seem like it has a generic turn-based combat system slapped onto it. Of course back then, it was slightly more fresh (though I feel most RPGs followed that style at the time anyway).

As far as modernizing the turn-based system goes, I feel like Civ V does the best, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's amazing and ground-breaking. I found while playing that game that it's riddled with way too many micromanagement commands rather than allowing the player to do more of the abstract sort of strategy and decision making. It's still there, but covered up by the fact that I'm clicking everywhere to shift my army around.

Also, when I think of innovation and turn-based combat, the Mario and Luigi games come to mind. They threw in that whole timing element that sort of blends in real-time with time-based. I'd like to see more games like that.

Hawk
I remember playing Lufia on the SNES when I was a kid. I rented it, and therefore didn't get very far. It became lost among the SNES-era RPGs of the time and I had pretty much forgotten it until now. The fact that they've brought the series back for the DS comes as a surprise to me. I haven't heard anything about the game's quality, though.

I don't blame you, half the games I rented back then I never really got into or bothered to buy it after a few sessions of play. As far as getting into Lufia, I blame it on the lack of variety of games one might have as a kid. You know, there being so few games to play and so much time to play them, how could I not play through the whole thing? Somewhere in the middle, the game just clicked with me and I thoroughly enjoyed it to the end. If I were playing it for the first time now though, I'm not really sure how well it holds up with time. ;)

If we're talking about the best turn-based RPG battle system in existence, then I would have to nominate Grandia Extreme.

I'm out of touch with JRPGs nowadays, so I don't know what improvements (if any) Grandia 3 has made to Grandia Extreme. Or if any other JRPGs have improved on Grandia Extreme's system.

You really have to just play it, to realize its potential in further and further refinement. As someone else said (about some other game), it's a mixture between turn-based decision-making, and real-time/spatial timing.

The only problem with Grandia Extreme was its plot was shallow, which ofc meant mediocracy for a JRPG. Perhaps that's why JRPGs in general haven't jumped onto Grandia Extreme's battle system bandwagan wholesale. But, I don't know -- I'm out of the loop for years.

I still find the original Grandia had a better combat system. The later Grandias kind of streamlined some elements to bring things back to a more traditional turn-based system. Timing and placement actually played a bigger role in the original game. Although in general a lot more can be done in terms of presentation and AI.

With modern systems, it wouldn't be that difficult to have combat sequences that look like cut scenes or AI that actually intelligently picks targets and attacks based on the player's party. Also, placement and timing should be major elements, rather than having each side just line up in two rows and run back and forth, hacking at each other.

There should be ways to use the environment to your advantage, hide behind a pillar to avoid damage, or use a spell to break open a weak section of floor to throw a large enemy off balance. Having a character jump in with a quick attack during an enemy's slower attack should not just deliver damage, but cancel that attack. Location based damaged and visual cues for damage dealt could easily be handled. Combat could actually use a number of variations on basic moves to create a more cinematic visual performance from the characters. No two fights would look the same.

The problem is this would require more work to be put into the combat engine and most developers prefer to spend all their time developing the story elements and cinematics at the expense of the actual gameplay. In this past generation, only one game looked like it might be moving in the right direction in this regard, but even they scrapped their original plans for something simpler.

And that's why I like the Grandia series' combat system. Because everything you just said I can plausibly see as a refinement/evolution of Grandia's system, but are conceptually impossible on archaic turn-based menu combat systems that FF use. After playing Grandia 2, FF7's "time/turn bar" looked like a joke.

Ofc, turn-based strategy games can also offer what you've listed... but those games are straying too far away from RPG systems to still be accepted as RPGs.

Oh, and Skies Of Arcadia's airship battle mode! It was basic, but it ROCKED. I had most of my fun in that game playing airship. Grandia's combat system + Skies Of Arcadia's airship battle system (with further refinements) would be a RPG dream come true.

A lot of what I mentioned was in the first Grandia's combat system. Obviously not the graphical enhancements since it was sprite-based, but positioning and timing were often important. You could, in fact, cancel enemy attacks and some attacks would knock enemies off balance, pushing them back on the time bar. It was a great system, possibly my favorite in any RPG. It saddens me that that was 13 years ago, two generations, and developers have learned nothing from it.

Other things that bother me is that it is entirely possible to make a fully non-linear system for the story that still offers opportunity for deep and moving story-telling, but everybody wants to stick to either linear tales or stories that lack any emotional attachment. I know that's not really the subject here, but it's just one of those things I think they could easily work on, but likely won't.

Oh well, maybe some day I'll get the opportunity to design an RPG and I can make the greatest turn-based game ever conceived.

So pertaining to the topic now, I recently tried out Lufia, and its left me frustrated. The game was absolute garbage. It adheres so closely to your typical run-of-the-mill JRPGs that I consider the series basically killed by this one alone. The only thing it was missing was another 80's turn-based combat system slapped onto it. Because everything else found in the game was reminiscent of type of game you'd see in the 80's.

Generic characters, stories, even bland gameplay - it has it all. This stuff seemed fine back then, but the industry has come along way, and this game had little to show for it. Even if the gameplay evolved into some awesome platforming hours later, this would be no where near worthwhile simply due to how bland and uninteresting the rest of the design came out to be. I would advise everyone to steer away from this title. If you really want to see what Lufia entailed as a game, just go play the first, much older version.

My apologies for the ensuing rant, but it needs to be said. More and more I'm starting to agree with the multiple people most notably from Capcom pointing out the stagnation of the Japanese side to the industry. The largest market these days is in the US and Europe, and these games are just doing terrible there. I look at FFXIII and see quite a lot of discontent, but that's now being overshadowed by its next-in-line, FFIX. I had the misfortune of getting into the beta, and none of mine as well as others numerous complaints showed through in the end result. And it shows, critics are hammering this game with negative reviews. Their core audience in the US is dwindling, now composed mostly of otaku. I am not one of those people, and the majority of people here aren't like that either. I hope they realize this before it's too late for them.