dueeast
That's a low blow, and does not belong in this thread.

Phillby
You've got to have a great deal of imagination if you take every word in the Bible literaly.

I'm cool with religion, and if your life is enriched by beliving in the skyfather or whatever that's just super.

However if you read the story of Noah, and thought 'yes, this is 100% true. this 600 year old man built a boat big enough to contain two of every animal in the world. Out of wood.' then you are a moron.

I don't take every single thing in the Bible for face value. The thing is you can't 100% PROVE that the things did not happen.

Not believing in another's faith and calling their ideas moronic(when their ideas do not harm you) are not the best approach. We can all talk ourselves into believing all kinds of things. I'm doing it now by thinking this post will have an effect of the way you perceive things heh. But what I am getting at is that faith transcends the logical things that science dictates can or cannot occur.

Logic and science can't always explain everything. It's not impossible that someone could have lived for 600 years and built a boat to perform such a feat. Especially if they are being guided by divine powers. Then again I am more of the faith that in a universe of infinite size, space, and variables... that ANYTHING is possible.

What I believe is as relevant as your beliefs.

I can say that your initial statement did not seem like a low blow and maybe Allen took it a bit wrong. But there will be no doubts about the intent in your latest statement.

Harkovast,

You probably don't know exactly how many posts and hours I have spent debating others in this forum or how successfully I can defend any viewpoint I have. Ozone and others can vouch for me.

However, my point earlier was, I see no point in continuing to stay on this stupid debate roller-coaster when the number of people who will bother to show me the same respect that I show them can also be counted on one hand; and since the point of debate is to elicit further discussion and encourage others to consider other viewpoints, even if they don't accept them, that does not happen here!

I have proved it in this forum, through experiment after experiment (i.e. - starting or joining a discussion on a new or different topic concerning politics or spirituality), the results are the same each and every time the experiment is tried.

There is no tolerance whatsoever for people who profess a socially and politically conservative viewpoint or who claim Christianity. They are dismissed as stupid or, as Phillby so eloquently demonstrated: morons. And then everyone backs up their beliefs with either the Evolution/Science perspective or they just get right into attacking the Bible.

If you're a conservative or claim to be a conservative, then you're automatically a racist or just an idiot.

And you've proven my point, as other have before you.

This is why I'm tired of it.

JustNoPoint, thanks for expressing a different viewpoint and for being a friend. As always, it's appreciated.

I think that when it comes to expressing points of view, both Liberals AND Conservatives are guilty of trying to push their belief system down other people's throats, mocking the other one posture and overall being Hollier-Than-Thou jerks...Not all the times, but sometimes...

I agree that there seems to be no tolerance towards people with a Conservative or Christian point of view. Then again, is not like Conservatives or Christians are posterboys for tolerance (according to the Liberal point of view)... Which means that Liberals, who are always predicting tolerance, should put the example...

In the other hand, giving that being Conservative means very-ultra-briefely-basically "keep the things the way they are" it will end inevitably in a clash with people that see the things as the polar oposite.

In the bottom line, it doesn't matter the god you want to pray, whatever you want to take to bed, if your food was sentient or if your both chromosomes are different or not, the chances of you being a complete asshole are the same as everybody else's...

I don't know if I'm a conservative or a liberal actually. I guess i am just "me". I can't claim to be one or the other because I have never researched the requirements to be one or the other. Same with republican and democrat. I never was one to all out "join" anything 100% =p

Over time everything is altered to be a means to an end. So I just pick the parts I feel best serve me and the people around me spiritually, physically, and mentally. To the best of my flawed abilities anyway.

Dueeast
If you're a conservative or claim to be a conservative, then you're automatically a racist or just an idiot.

haha, oooh thats a quote I could sure take out of context!

Seriously though, I did not say I thought Christian or conserviatve ideas were stupid, I only feel that the whole "oooh its liberal bias! We conservatives are so persecuted!" arguement is really lame.

I was attacking your specific arguement, rather then the concept of being a christian or a conservative.

However, once again you interpreted someone not agreeing with you as persecution on behalf of those darn liberals trying exclude you.

So now even saying I think your ideas of being persecuted are wrong counts as persecution? Am I allowed to say anything other then "I agree with you" and "Glenn Beck is awesome!" that you wont feel is liberal bias against your beliefs?

(Though I will admit, I do think saying the earth is 6000 years old is pretty riduculous in the modern age! Believing in God=yes, seems reasonable to me. Beleiving things that make no sense that go against everything experts who have studied the topic say= Not so much)

Philby I think your comments are getting a bit agressive there.
Whether your assessment is right or wrong, when you start getting insulting, mocking and arrogant about it, you are just going to end up alienating people, not persuading them to agree with you.
Asside from that, it just makes you seem antagonistic.

Harkovast,

I think I understand your perspective but let me say this: I don't really care to focus as much on the "woe is me" aspect as I do on the "what is the point in continuing to beat my head against a brick wall?" aspect of this discussion.

Whether or not the vast majority of people here are confident in their liberal and/or non-Christian viewpoints and how they view conservatives or Christians has finally become of little interest to me. What is simply is and if that's what prevails here, fine. Go for it.

I've just slowly been coming to the conclusion that I don't need the aggravation and the stress of trying to defend my own conservative views or my nondenominational Christian beliefs in this forum. I've been down the route of vigorously debating (and enjoying it for quite a while) and I've allowed myself to get frustrated with what at times looks like a ridiculous overkill of one perspective and no tolerance for outside viewpoints.

Now I'm just getting a little numb. I'm a Christian first, I happen to have conservative views, I'm a family man and I love to write and draw and collaborate on webcomics. That's who I am.

I have a medical disability that causes me daily pain and hospitalized me 5 times last year. But I'm not bitter over it and I refuse to adopt a "woe is me" perspective. Each day, I have to decide what is and is not important to me, and choose my (intellectual and emotional) battles well. And I've decided that this battle is not worth it. No offense.

I won't totally leave the forums, I'll still promote Due East and Off Hours. I may jump in on other topics, but on the liberal/conservative or spiritual topics, I may have to just stop reading those topics...because it's counterproductive for me to respond.

Peace!

harkovast

Dueeast
If you're a conservative or claim to be a conservative, then you're automatically a racist or just an idiot.

haha, oooh thats a quote I could sure take out of context!

Seriously though, I did not say I thought Christian or conserviatve ideas were stupid, I only feel that the whole "oooh its liberal bias! We conservatives are so persecuted!" arguement is really lame.

I was attacking your specific arguement, rather then the concept of being a christian or a conservative.

However, once again you interpreted someone not agreeing with you as persecution on behalf of those darn liberals trying exclude you.

So now even saying I think your ideas of being persecuted are wrong counts as persecution? Am I allowed to say anything other then "I agree with you" and "Glenn Beck is awesome!" that you wont feel is liberal bias against your beliefs?

(Though I will admit, I do think saying the earth is 6000 years old is pretty riduculous in the modern age! Believing in God=yes, seems reasonable to me. Beleiving things that make no sense that go against everything experts who have studied the topic say= Not so much)

Eh, I don't involve myself in debate. People rarely really "discuss" topics on the internet. They simply rant and then engage in name-calling sessions. Plus, I'm a liberal Christian biologist. I mostly end up getting bashed from all sides.

Everyone ends up looking narrow-minded when they get into "debate." By simply stating any opinion or observation, people assume you are 1. On a "side" and 2. Determined to underscore anyone on the opposing side. So, even if I feel I have something to contribute, I don't. I feel people are entitled to their own opinions, and engaging in debate negates that philosophy.



So, um, what was the question? Oh, right, conservative comics. I wouldn't know. I don't read political or preachy crap on either/any side unless out of anthropological curiosity. ;)

harkovast
conservative people need to be more creative

YOSH!

What the heck is Yosh? Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Used Books it is a bit ironic that you should say internet debates are a bit pointless, because I have to say that the most productive debate I've had on the internet in years is the one you, me and aghammer are having over the DD award for best parody/tribute right now!

prolly both hark, prolly both.

I am more confused by Yosh then ever.

harkovast
Philby I think your comments are getting a bit agressive there.
Whether your assessment is right or wrong, when you start getting insulting, mocking and arrogant about it, you are just going to end up alienating people, not persuading them to agree with you.
Asside from that, it just makes you seem antagonistic.

The Bible as we know it today is a collection of storys, letters and accounts from across history. It's been translated, edited and retranslated numerous times.

It is not the word of god, it is a book. The idea that it is a 100% factual historical document is laughable.

I don't think I've got a snowballs chance in hell of getting that point acrooss, no matter how polite I force myself to be.

I'll most likely regret responding to this but I'm too tired to care at the moment.

The Bible has been historically tested by both skeptics and believers concerning the prove-able documentation, such as kings/rulers, names of countries, cities, peoples, tribes, places, religions, buildings, technology and much more. It is the definitive historical source for the ancient Hebrew people (now mostly known as the Jewish people).

As far as the pre-history (Adam and Eve), prophecies and more philosophical elements, those have been (and will be) debated ad-nauseum. In the absence of facts, you can't prove something didn't happen, as JustNoPoint said. It just boils down to whether you believe it on faith or you don't. It is simply a subjective matter and always will be.

On the other hand, "a collection of stories" does not lead millions to convert to another belief system, but faith -- in that belief system, as supported by what is written in the Bible -- does.

What Phillby and some others seem to be getting frustrated/confused/amused or whatever by is the concept of someone (or in this case, a considerable number of people) literally believing the Bible to be the Word of God as divine inspiration given to the men who wrote the words. And since those of you who feel that way can't believe the Bible literally, then you think no one else should, either -- and if someone does, then they "deserve" your ridicule and derision until they see the light of reason and what, convert to your belief system? If so, how interesting!

What I find amazing is why what someone else does bothers you all so much? Live your own life, believe what you want to believe and leave others' beliefs alone. Ozone has been advocating that for quite some time, I believe (a live and let live approach, specifically).

But that doesn't happen here. It's gotten so bad that even when the Christians don't post, the "Anti-believers" keep re-hashing variations on the same topics and giving the same answers -- and end up being flabbergasted at how those (fill-in-the-blank) "believers/Christians, etc." can believe in the Bible or God or Jesus, because the Anti-believers have so much justification for what they believe -- but no answers on how to make all those annoying believers in the world just GO AWAY, because that's in essence what they seem to want.

That may be a harsh assessment, but every once in a while, I drop in and read the posts (the ones I can stomach, anyway). It's really somewhere between sad and funny to see debate over a seeming non-issue. If it's so impossible to believe, and there's noone around who cares to challenge you, then why continue to beat that "dead horse?" That seems borderline obsessive...

Okay, I'm going to bed now.

Phillby

harkovast
Philby I think your comments are getting a bit agressive there.
Whether your assessment is right or wrong, when you start getting insulting, mocking and arrogant about it, you are just going to end up alienating people, not persuading them to agree with you.
Asside from that, it just makes you seem antagonistic.

The Bible as we know it today is a collection of storys, letters and accounts from across history. It's been translated, edited and retranslated numerous times.

It is not the word of god, it is a book. The idea that it is a 100% factual historical document is laughable.

I don't think I've got a snowballs chance in hell of getting that point acrooss, no matter how polite I force myself to be.

Man, you're starting to sound less like the calm, collected, good natured guy we love so much and more like... something else. :(
If Philby and the rest believe what they do and say what they do, it doesn't really harm you. This stuff goes both ways.

I'm not religious and I get annoyed when people are always knocking religions and always demonising Christianity.
It doesn't degrade what they criticise so much as themselves though. Remember that. ;)

dueeast
What Phillby and some others seem to be getting frustrated/confused/amused or whatever by is the concept of someone (or in this case, a considerable number of people) literally believing the Bible to be the Word of God as divine inspiration given to the men who wrote the words.

The debate whether the bible is literal or symbolic in the whole thing or in parts is as old as Juadisim and Christianity combined.
Within those religions what happens is that they mellow and treat the holy book in a more symbolic way (intellectualising it) and then new movements pop up that take it literally and they'll break off and form a new sect. Then eventually that sect will move to thinking about the holy books in a more symbolic way again, and then they'll have another split and so on... And each newer sect will claim they're the ones who know the real truth and have an unbroken lineage with the founding tenants of the faith. That's been happening for a couple of thousand years now. It's an interesting organic process.

And people who attack Christianity or religion in general always attack the literalists. That's only a part of the religion, any religion, and that's always been the case.

But that aside, it doesn't matter really. The problem is that when you get into these silly conservative VS non-conservative debates people make a cartoonish characterisation that represents each camp and then proceed to throw turds at it.

The problem is that only idiots and monkeys throw turds. -_-

ozoneocean
Man, you're starting to sound less like the calm, collected, good natured guy we love so much and more like... something else. :(
If Philby and the rest believe what they do and say what they do, it doesn't really harm you. This stuff goes both ways.

It does go both ways. I'm not religious (or conservative either ... at least not on most issues!) but I think dueeast's point is that the debate had degenerated to the point of personal insults. That's not necessary, whichever side of the argument you're on.

I think you have to remember that you get some very young people on most internet forums and, whilst they're entitled to their own opinions, they may not always express them in as "considered" a way as some of us old fogeys!

Aren't we talking about conservative comics rather then "is the bible the word of God?"

Philby if you dont think you can persuade people whether you are friendly or rude, then you should be friendly. That way when you fail to convince them at least you wont make them feel annoyed and you wont make yourself seem like a bully.

Dueeast- I think the reaction here is actually confirming the opposite of the conclusion you reached.
People are not rallying behind Philby to attack you.
His hostility is just alienating everyone from his argument.
Notice how many people are saying "I'm not religious, but..."?
You have more allies then you realise, even though they may not agree with you on every point.

Ozone,

I did warn everyone that I might regret writing that. ;)

I do have to say that Phillby does seem to be going out of his way to be confrontational on this. I had a really hard time letting that last quip about the Bible go, and this is why I probably just need to avoid these posts. That's the easiest way to not respond to them.

Harkovast, I know I have allies, and you are correct, this conversation has certainly gone better than most. For that, I am grateful. And yes, this did start out being about conservative comics...but people tend to associate conservatives with Christians and then the Bible gets brought up and it often degenerates from there. :(

I think more than anything, I have just built up some expectations concerning these subjects, based on years of consistent behavior from multiple users of this forum...and those expectations lead to frustration which leads to some degree of resentment (just being honest here). And since those kinds of emotions are not healthy, that's why, time and again, I just need to steer clear of this stuff.

I'm sorry that I let myself go so far in my delirium exhaustion post. I don't mean to vent in an unhealthy way.

One of the things I do enjoy about this forum is when we can have a constructive conversation, even if we don't agree. It does happen and I'm grateful when it does. B)

ozoneocean
Man, you're starting to sound less like the calm, collected, good natured guy we love so much and more like... something else. :(
If Philby and the rest believe what they do and say what they do, it doesn't really harm you. This stuff goes both ways.

I'm not religious and I get annoyed when people are always knocking religions and always demonising Christianity.
It doesn't degrade what they criticise so much as themselves though. Remember that. ;)

*i wrote this before seeing Dueeasts post above blah >_< *slowpoke*

ozoneocean
Man, you're starting to sound less like the calm, collected, good natured guy we love so much and more like... something else. :(

This happened in some of my classes, basically during debates with an atheist or a similar themed topic there was at least one or two christian boys or girls that were calmly debating and presenting themselves as a nice agreeable person so you'll see their side isn't bad after all. Great strategy, til' my friend who goes to their youth group tells me they literally just sit around and bash non-believers/other religions the worst out of the group.(On the flipside there are some Christian guys and girls out there that are fuckwin/wonderful in every way, but like a group of anything else, they're few and far between. )

Either way, i can't stand seeing a victim act from someone who's part of a group of people that are no where near being a minority. :/
It's a downright slap in the face to anyone else who's faced real persecution and hatred(i.e. not some word pooping 'debates' on the Internet or IRL) for being a part of something that likely had to do with people doing "what 'god' wants".
----------------------

Actually on the topic of religion and comics, has anyone ever read a comic that didn't feel preachy about the subject? Not being snarky here just generally interested in reading one (persepolis is the only one that jumps to mind and it's really not too focused on the muslim part)

Not being snarky either here, Skullbie, but I know you read and liked what you read initially of Due East. Did you find it preachy? Just curious.

Skullbie
*i wrote this before seeing Dueeasts post above blah >_< *slowpoke*

ozoneocean
Man, you're starting to sound less like the calm, collected, good natured guy we love so much and more like... something else. :(

This happened in some of my classes, basically during debates with an atheist or a similar themed topic there was at least one or two christian boys or girls that were calmly debating and presenting themselves as a nice agreeable person so you'll see their side isn't bad after all. Great strategy, til' my friend who goes to their youth group tells me they literally just sit around and bash non-believers/other religions the worst out of the group.(On the flipside there are some Christian guys and girls out there that are fuckwin/wonderful in every way, but like a group of anything else, they're few and far between. )

Either way, i can't stand seeing a victim act from someone who's part of a group of people that are no where near being a minority. :/
It's a downright slap in the face to anyone else who's faced real persecution and hatred(i.e. not some word pooping 'debates' on the Internet or IRL) for being a part of something that likely had to do with people doing "what 'god' wants".
----------------------

Actually on the topic of religion and comics, has anyone ever read a comic that didn't feel preachy about the subject? Not being snarky here just generally interested in reading one (persepolis is the only one that jumps to mind and it's really not too focused on the muslim part)

dueeast
Not being snarky either here, Skullbie, but I know you read and liked what you read initially of Due East. Did you find it preachy? Just curious.

Oh i had forgotten about Due east (i was in print comic mode) :) No i did not, it was easy to sympathize with the characters too.

I Looks like I went too far with that last post. Sorry for that.

My beef with people who take the bible literaly is that it smacks of Brainwashing. If you accept the absoloute truth of something, it's sudenly very easy to miss the point of that thing in the process. Surely there's more to be learnt from the story of creation than the intense desire to disprove evoloution.

Hey Phillby,

I appreciate you explaining your concern about that topic. What I'd like to tell you, from personal experience, is that the reason I believe what I believe is based on a combination of faith and spiritual reasons. I don't accept anything at face value (believe me!). It took an extraordinary set of circumstances for me to change from being my type of agnostic (which was believing there's a God and a Jesus, but not much more than that -- I'd been raised around hypocritical churches that happened to call themselves Southern Baptist) to nondenominational Christian.

And as many here know, I don't support evolution but I didn't support it when I was agnostic, either. lol!

Sorry for the sidetrack from comics, my friends. Let us get back to comics!! B)

Phillby
I Looks like I went too far with that last post. Sorry for that.

My beef with people who take the bible literaly is that it smacks of Brainwashing. If you accept the absoloute truth of something, it's sudenly very easy to miss the point of that thing in the process. Surely there's more to be learnt from the story of creation than the intense desire to disprove evoloution.

Yes lets stop bashing conservatives and religious people.

Lets get back to bashing their comics instead!

(KIDDING!)

Being stuck here in redneck central Alberta, I can say with some certainty that, in Canada anyway, the reason there aren't more conservative comics is because most right-leaning people aren't interested in making comics or any other form of art. That's not saying that anyone leaning toward the left must be creative and into art, but in this country at least, artsy types are more likely to be left-leaning (I won't say Liberal since that is a political party here and there are many liberal-leaning folks here that don't care for them at all).

Plain and simple, if conservative types want to see more conservative comics, they have to make them themselves.

I think the real challenge with creating any political art is avoiding strawman politics. That stuff just gets really nasty at times.

When I first started drawing I was very, very liberal. However, life happened and I became more conservative. I'm still an artist, even still. I guess it's the old saying "If you're not a liberal when you're young you have no heart, but if you're not a conservative when you're older you have no brain." No offense to liberals out there or anything.

Most political humour is left winged because:

- Right winged people have no sense of humour is the stereotype, surely there are exceptions but yeah... Obama versus McCain in humour?
- Right wing is easier to make fun of, Quayle, Bush, Palin, Cheney being the puppet master behind Bush and all, the list is endless.

I think it is a reasonable split of which political side gets what in the media.

Conservatives get talk radio and fox news and the incest filled furry web comic better days.

Liberals get the rest of reality.

(This message was brought to you by the liberal media elite)
:D

falconire
if you're not a conservative when you're older you have no brain." No offense to liberals out there or anything.

lol!
Personally I see it like this:

-Very young people tend to be more conservative because younger people think in black and white more. They don't see many grey areas to life because they don't know enough yet.

-As you get older you learn more about life, you develop more compassion you see the grey areas. This makes you a lot less conservative.

-When you get older still you get more and more stuff and want to keep it. You still think about other people and grey areas, but none of that is as important anymore as keeping what you've worked so hard to get. This is why so many older people are conservative.


If you're old and NOT conservative, you win a prize because YOU are a rarity if you still keep those ideals and not succumb to selfishness and perceived refuges of safety in lack of change.
-Most older people on the so-called "left" side of politics are still conservative, they're just too conservative to change parties, that doesn't mean they don't oppose change and any "liberal" ideals within it though.