I've been thinking about this for a bit and wanted to see what everyone else thought. Is the superhero genre really a genre? I mean, if you define the genre as "Heroes in tights fighting Villains" then I guess it is but most Superhero comics fall in either different genres other than superhero(making it maybe a loose sub-genre).

Y'know, like Superman and Fantastic Four is sci-fi, batman is loosely a crime comic, Hulk is a monster comic and so on. I'm stumped, is the superhero genre a genre, a sub-genre or not a genre at all?

It IS a genre, but like all genres, there are comics that fit in the most classic sense and ones that lie in the edges and blurr them. When I think of the genre, my picture is that they are costumed characters with aliases either fighting crime or fighting evil.

The "super powers" are not necessarily a strict component of the genre, imo. Having supernatural abilities can fall into the fantasy or sci-fi realm easily enough. But when any of those characters don a costume to fight bad guys, it becomes a superhero comic. -- If it isn't a costume but is an aler-ego, it could be considered superhero as well. It is, to me, the crucial component of the genre. Of course, if the costume is subtle enough and there are no or limited powers involved, it might be a tale of undercover spies rather than superheroes. But I think the difference lies in less obvious components and mood. (James Bond fights powerful world-conquering villains with technology that would make Batman envious. He has a codename, but his "super hero" costume isn't the best. Plus we rarely see him struggle with his identity. He proudly gives his real name to his enemies. And there are plenty of other "clues" to let us know that superspy is not superhero.)

Of course, most super hero comics have elements and themes of other genres as well, or are even half superhero comic and half something else. This isn't unique to superhero stories. It is true for all genres.

If the donning of costumes and use of an alter-ego to fight evil/crime was less common in comics, we'd tuck it in with fantasy or crime drama or wherever it fit based on other elements. But use of those elements is dominant enough, it IS its own genre. People who write superhero stories usually use others for inspiration and they follow many similar themes in terms of plot elements and characters, and that makes it a genre -- even if it isn't a "perfect fit" for any specific one.

I agree with Used Books for the most part.

That said . . . Secret identities aren't always necessary for superheroes, though. Everyone knows who the Fantastic Four are and where they live. Similarly, none of the X-Men really have secret identities--pretty much every villain knows who they are, even if the public may not. In Justice League (the animated TV series), John Stewart didn't keep his identity secret. In fact, it seemed like he wanted everyone in the inner city he grew up in to know he was a Green Lantern as a way to inspire them.

That said, I don't understand why some of the die-hard manga fans look down on superhero comics. Much of the popular manga/anime is pretty much superhero stories. Look at Naruto. I haven't really watched much of it (just a handful of episodes or pieces of episodes), but everyone has his/her distinctive look/uniform and superpowers and fights supervillains. Sure, they call themselves ninjas and they use magic, but it's still superheroes and superpowers. Same goes for Sailor Moon and all of the magical girl-type stories (where the heroes also have secret identities, by the way).

EssayBee
That said, I don't understand why some of the die-hard manga fans look down on superhero comics. Much of the popular manga/anime is pretty much superhero stories. Look at Naruto. I haven't really watched much of it (just a handful of episodes or pieces of episodes), but everyone has his/her distinctive look/uniform and superpowers and fights supervillains. Sure, they call themselves ninjas and they use magic, but it's still superheroes and superpowers. Same goes for Sailor Moon and all of the magical girl-type stories (where the heroes also have secret identities, by the way).

I can't speak for everyone, but it might be more because of the artwork. Lots of musculature and the "heroic proportions" are not to the taste of many manga fans. In fact, it can appear downright ugly. -- Just as the exaggerated and simplified manga features do not appeal to "diehard" fans of American superhero comics. The dialogue and story style are somewhat different as well. A few plot devices are purely eastern and others western, and people can either enjoy or be aggravated by those things.

And you are right; an alter ego is not necessarily secret, but it's still an alter ego. Very few superheros go without renaming themselves something superhero-ish rather than saying "Hi, I'm Tommy. Just Tommy. Here to save you!" ( Sailor Moon included, of course.) I can't off the top of my head think of any superhero that didn't either rename himself something or have a new name applied to him.

I'm not a fan of any supernatural ability stories myself. I hated anime when I was growing up. It wasn't until I was in college that I realized there were more anime genres than just super girls and fantasy stories. It is a fine line between (er, among) sci-fi, fantasy, and "super" stories, but there are enough distinctions to classify the different genres, and they exist in both western and eastern comics -- albeit with different approaches to art style and some distinctions in their plot devices.

Haha! there are a gazillion genres and there are none.

"Genre" is a label we use to classify something for the reader, the work itself is just what it is... genreless! :)
You can classify a work under numerous genres if you like, but you'll usually find just one or two that you think represents it best.

People will write for a "genre", but all they're doing is including some of those elements that will make people associate their work with a particular genre.


And there you have it. ^_^
Writing and reading and all that sort of art isn't mathematical or scientific. Genre's are intellectual, cultural, psychological... I don't know a good word for it, but it's something that is agreed to exist rather than something with an independent existence.
So if people think Superheroes are a genre, then they are.

If there are enough stories sharing a half-dozen or so similar features, they will be labelled a genre. But you're absolutely right that any story can be recategorised as fitting in with any one of a dozen different genres. You just have to decide which traits you're using to draw your distinctions.

Steampunk, for example, is clearly SciFi (with a touch of fantasy often thrown into the mix!) but the designs draw heavily on Victoriana. Again, one story of that nature would just be lumped together with everything else in the SciFi genre. Once you have a wide variety of titles using Victorian themes, however, it's possible to call it a genre in its own right.

In the case of super heroes, if there hadn't been any others created after Superman, his story would still exist but it would probably be classified as SciFi (being that he's a visitor from another planet) or even fantasy. His success, however, has spawned so many stories that share similar features (costumes, aliases, powers, gadgets etc) that they can also be said to constitute a separate (or sub-) genre.

usedbooks
I can't off the top of my head think of any superhero that didn't either rename himself something or have a new name applied to him.

Jean Grey springs to mind. (Although she's a "her" rather than a "him", obviously!)

DAJB
In the case of super heroes, if there hadn't been any others created after Superman, his story would still exist but it would be probably be classified as SciFi (being that he's a visitor from another planet) or even fantasy.

Perhaps "modern Mythology" could've been a good one, since the stories are so similar to the heroic myths like Hercules, Peruses, Thor, Beowulf etc.

In that way "superhero" stories aren't a new "genre" either, and they implicitly acknowledge that in many ways- having Thor as one of their foremost titles is a good example.

ozoneocean
Perhaps "modern Mythology" could've been a good one, since the stories are so similar to the heroic myths like Hercules, Peruses, Thor, Beowulf etc.

In that way "superhero" stories aren't a new "genre" either, and they implicitly acknowledge that in many ways- having Thor as one of their foremost titles is a good example.

Just with the exception that we don't worship Superman. :p Right...? :nervous:

ozoneocean
Perhaps "modern Mythology" could've been a good one, since the stories are so similar to the heroic myths like Hercules, Peruses, Thor, Beowulf etc.

In that way "superhero" stories aren't a new "genre" either, and they implicitly acknowledge that in many ways- having Thor as one of their foremost titles is a good example.

Yup - there are many parallels between super hero stories and ancient myths.

Wonder Woman, like Thor, even plugs directly into ancient mythology (Greek in her case). She was created from mud by Hera and blessed with powers by Hermes, Athena and Aphrodite. Her arch-nemesis is Ares and her mother is supposedly the same Hippolyta who was tricked by Herakles. The other Greek gods regularly feature in her stories.

Tantz Aerine
Just with the exception that we don't worship Superman.

True. (Well, with the exception of the most extreme fanboys, anyway!)

But the ancient myths weren't just about gods. All of those Heroes and Demi-Gods were pretty much the ancient equivalent of today's superheroes. Batman - with his ingenuity, invention and strategising - is a dead ringer for Odysseus/Ulysses. Any one of the non-powered heroes who rely on unsurpassed combat skills could pass for Achilles. The original Flash wore a winged hemet, after Hermes. Superman now has a whole raft of powers but he usually ends up using his incredible strength which makes him a modern Herakles/Hercules.

DAJB

usedbooks
I can't off the top of my head think of any superhero that didn't either rename himself something or have a new name applied to him.

Jean Grey springs to mind. (Although she's a "her" rather than a "him", obviously!)

Not to be petty, but she was called Marvel Girl and later Phoenix--and Dark Phoenix when she was bad.

Still, I'm enjoying the conversation, and everyone's making good points.

EssayBee

DAJB

usedbooks
I can't off the top of my head think of any superhero that didn't either rename himself something or have a new name applied to him.

Jean Grey springs to mind. (Although she's a "her" rather than a "him", obviously!)

Not to be petty, but she was called Marvel Girl and later Phoenix--and Dark Phoenix when she was bad.

Haha! You can make up anything at all, and I wouldn't know it. XD Like I said, I'm not a fan, so I don't know anything aside from generalizations and surface observations of popular titles/characters. I know roughly who Batman, Superman, and Spiderman are. More than that (or even too detailed into those), and I'm in a foreign land politely listening to people speak jibberish in another language.

But if you're looking for the opinion of a member of the non-comic-crazed populace who avoid superhero titles and are personally biased against the genre, I'm your girl. :) Generalizations are what define a genre, so who better to identify those than one who avoids them? Fans don't make generalizations as much because being "within the group," they see it more rich and varied and will be able to come up with exceptions. (That's some kind of psychology or sociology thing or something. :P )

EssayBee

DAJB

usedbooks
I can't off the top of my head think of any superhero that didn't either rename himself something or have a new name applied to him.

Jean Grey springs to mind. (Although she's a "her" rather than a "him", obviously!)

Not to be petty, but she was called Marvel Girl and later Phoenix--and Dark Phoenix when she was bad.

To be honest I don't consider Phoenix/Dark Phoenix to be the same character as Jean. It's not who she is when she's being "herself". But, that's just me splitting hairs, I guess. Either way, I had completely forgotten that she used to be called Marvel Girl. I stand corrected! :D

usedbooks
Generalizations are what define a genre

Now that's as neat and tidy an explanation as anyone has come up with yet!

usedbooks
Fans don't make generalizations as much because being "within the group," they see it more rich and varied and will be able to come up with exceptions.

Actually I think fans are probably worse. They use their knowledge of the exceptions to create sub-genres!

DAJB
Actually I think fans are probably worse. They use their knowledge of the exceptions to create sub-genres!

I agree with you there. I think some fanboys (and gals) thump the object of their fandom harder than any Bible thumper thumps their Bible. (Man, does that ever sound like a double entendre.) Telling some fanboys that the Star Wars prequels are just as enjoyable as the originals or that DC is better than Marvel is like telling the Westboro Baptists that God loves gays.

EssayBee
Star Wars prequels

Really? I've only ever met one person who liked the first prequel film- quite apart from fanboys and fandom. :)

Subgenres are confusing, but they're a good way of finding something else that suits your tastes- If you really love a certain band, knowing the sub-genre people identify them with can lead you to find new faves ^_^
--And say you like Superhero comics that are quite nior and violent, with a certain look, then knowing the sub-genre can help you pad out your reading list!

I like The Phantom Menace. While the other 2 films are as good or better (to me), I can watch TPM repeatedly.

4 reasons:

1. Liam Neeson
2. Ray Park
3. No romance/emo written by George Lucas.
4. The clean-cut sets. I just like the aesthetics of all the major set pieces... it's uncluttered, clean. Like watching anime (cel shading art aesthetics).

One day I should watch the fan-edited version which removes Jar Jar.

EssayBee
Telling some fanboys that the Star Wars prequels are just as enjoyable as the originals.

Heh, I watched the prequels before the originals(never had a problem with them).

EssayBee
Or that DC is better than Marvel.

Ehhh....you lost me there.

Ok, back to the topic. Wasn't Superman originally just called sci-fi comic and Batman was just called a detective comic? If the first superheroes were created from different genres wouldn't it make "Superhero" a loose sub-genre?

Byth1
Ok, back to the topic. Wasn't Superman originally just called sci-fi comic and Batman was just called a detective comic? If the first superheroes were created from different genres wouldn't it make "Superhero" a loose sub-genre?

Not now. Now that it has expanded, it is a genre in its own right.

All genres start somewhere. They don't become a "genre" as soon as the first story is written.

Another example; I think "vampire" might be becoming it's own genre rather than simply listed under "horror." Especially now that those stories are not treated strictly as horror, and some are falling under "fantasy" or other types.

EssayBee
I agree with Used Books for the most part.

That said . . . Secret identities aren't always necessary for superheroes, though. Everyone knows who the Fantastic Four are and where they live. Similarly, none of the X-Men really have secret identities--pretty much every villain knows who they are, even if the public may not. In Justice League (the animated TV series), John Stewart didn't keep his identity secret. In fact, it seemed like he wanted everyone in the inner city he grew up in to know he was a Green Lantern as a way to inspire them.

That said, I don't understand why some of the die-hard manga fans look down on superhero comics. Much of the popular manga/anime is pretty much superhero stories. Look at Naruto. I haven't really watched much of it (just a handful of episodes or pieces of episodes), but everyone has his/her distinctive look/uniform and superpowers and fights supervillains. Sure, they call themselves ninjas and they use magic, but it's still superheroes and superpowers. Same goes for Sailor Moon and all of the magical girl-type stories (where the heroes also have secret identities, by the way).

Bleach is a superhero even more than Naruto.

Personally, I think genres themselves are a little limiting.
I mean, of course there's stories (comics/movies/tv) that neatly fall into one category or genre of story telling... but for the most part I think it takes away from certain other multi layered stories to group with as being part of a collective 'genre' style.

The recognized 'superhero' genre is anyone in costume fighting crime.
I think the biggest example of what I'm talking about is Punisher: no powers, ruthless, only semblance of a 'costume' is a skull logo T-shirt (with modifications sometimes of course).
Where as if you remove him from the Marvel Universe, take away associations with other 'superheroes' and remove the branding... he still works as an independant character with a great back story and compelling attributes.
A lot of Punisher titles recently read like graphic crime novels, or pulp noir even... complete contract to majority of Marvel's 'superhero' titles.

With my limited experience I can only think of Punisher, so I'm sure there's other stories/charactes like this, that defy genre but are able to be classified as their own class and genre.
Another one I can think of now is THE WATCHMEN.

ozoneocean
Haha! there are a gazillion genres and there are none.

"Genre" is a label we use to classify something for the reader, the work itself is just what it is... genreless! :)
You can classify a work under numerous genres if you like, but you'll usually find just one or two that you think represents it best.

People will write for a "genre", but all they're doing is including some of those elements that will make people associate their work with a particular genre.


And there you have it. ^_^
Writing and reading and all that sort of art isn't mathematical or scientific. Genre's are intellectual, cultural, psychological... I don't know a good word for it, but it's something that is agreed to exist rather than something with an independent existence.
So if people think Superheroes are a genre, then they are.

Very well said.
I guess this makes sense, never thought of it this way though.

A work of art or story is, on it's own genre-less as it has too many elements to be categorized in one specific genre.
However the readers and audience may decide to add genre-atrritbutes to said work based on certain elements of the content, and will essentially find one to classify it as being of ____ genre.

Therefore, it shall be that.
Hmm... I guess that makes complete sense.

Tantz Aerine

ozoneocean
Perhaps "modern Mythology" could've been a good one, since the stories are so similar to the heroic myths like Hercules, Peruses, Thor, Beowulf etc.

In that way "superhero" stories aren't a new "genre" either, and they implicitly acknowledge that in many ways- having Thor as one of their foremost titles is a good example.

Just with the exception that we don't worship Superman. :p Right...? :nervous:

Says you.

*lights super-candle using visor-like apparatus imitating heat vision, faces the direction of the Fortress of Solitude, grabs copy of Superman #700 and reads entire issue out loud as a biblical hymn*

usedbooks

EssayBee

DAJB

usedbooks
I can't off the top of my head think of any superhero that didn't either rename himself something or have a new name applied to him.

Jean Grey springs to mind. (Although she's a "her" rather than a "him", obviously!)

Not to be petty, but she was called Marvel Girl and later Phoenix--and Dark Phoenix when she was bad.

Haha! You can make up anything at all, and I wouldn't know it. XD Like I said, I'm not a fan, so I don't know anything aside from generalizations and surface observations of popular titles/characters. I know roughly who Batman, Superman, and Spiderman are. More than that (or even too detailed into those), and I'm in a foreign land politely listening to people speak jibberish in another language.

But if you're looking for the opinion of a member of the non-comic-crazed populace who avoid superhero titles and are personally biased against the genre, I'm your girl. :) Generalizations are what define a genre, so who better to identify those than one who avoids them? Fans don't make generalizations as much because being "within the group," they see it more rich and varied and will be able to come up with exceptions. (That's some kind of psychology or sociology thing or something. :P )

That's very true.
The general audience will and need to generalize a work and classify a genre to it.
However fans of said work who will know all ins and outs and extravagant details will see beyond that and add more depth to something they like and admire.

Very interesting.

All that matters is that it's awesome that it's a big mess of other genres: star-explorers with jetpacks strapped on shooting lasers at Frankenstein who's chasing a WWII vet attempting to get a message to a masked detective investigating Zeus. It's mind boggling, ridiculous and fun.

parkbenchbook
All that matters is that it's awesome that it's a big mess of other genres: star-explorers with jetpacks strapped on shooting lasers at Frankenstein who's chasing a WWII vet attempting to get a message to a masked detective investigating Zeus. It's mind boggling, ridiculous and fun.

And that's why I love Hellboy and B.P.R.D.