You don't have to go back that far to find different tribes, all of which were white. Most of them had different genetic markers indicating different human ancestries. Even now it's possible to detect these markers and make a guess what part of Europe their ancestors recently came from based on it or if they're from further afield.
They need a SEPARATE test to see roughly wherebouts your great great gran emmigrated from within Europe.

And besides, you wouldn't group aboriginal Australians together with (for example) Haitians, would you? If one started insulting the other one based on where they come from or their ancestoral culture or stereotype their facial features, would that be racism?

Faliat
You don't have to go back that far to find different tribes, all of which were white. Most of them had different genetic markers indicating different human ancestries. Even now it's possible to detect these markers and make a guess what part of Europe their ancestors recently came from based on it or if they're from further afield.
They need a SEPARATE test to see roughly wherebouts your great great gran emmigrated from within Europe.

And besides, you wouldn't group aboriginal Australians together with (for example) Haitians, would you? If one started insulting the other one based on where they come from or their ancestoral culture or stereotype their facial features, would that be racism?

There's no genetic or biological proof for race.
Simple regional genetic diversity isn't quite the same thing- The differences that make one person "black" and another "white" are far, far less than the differences that make two individuals who have an identical ethnic background and heritage.
Genetically speaking, the differences aren't great, and especially not enough to warrant a "racial" classification. That sort of thing is purely a social cultural construction (like so many other things): race is a "fact" that we have created for ourselves, much like the gods in our mythologies etc.
And for many a wold without belief in constructions is too incomprehensible and scary so renationalisations are employed to support them and shore up the belief system.

Religions have a central role in cultural history and the arts to an extent, so there is a justification for preserving them. But there is no justification for prolonging the myth of race! It is only negative and divisive, its main purpose is to create difference and division where there is none, especially difference based on inequality of inherited physical traits- the worst possible inequality you can manufacture since people can't change the accident of their birth.

If there is no genetic or biological proof of race, then I'd like to see it. Lol.

There's more proof that there is. There are specific genetic susceptabilities and defects that are more or less likely to occur in some peoples than others.
That is medical fact!

If you want an example, how about Tay-Sachs? It's highly unlikely that anyone who is a carrier of the disorder is not of Eastern European or Ashkenazi Jewish descent.

And if T.S. is a genetic disorder, how come it isn't affecting any other group the same way?

Differences.

And is there anything wrong with that?

NO!

The sooner we learn that differences are there the sooner we might learn to accept them.

Faliat
If there is no genetic or biological proof of race, then I'd like to see it. Lol.

I say again:
"Simple regional genetic diversity isn't quite the same thing- The differences that make one person "black" and another "white" are far, far less than the differences that make two individuals who have an identical ethnic background and heritage."

That is pretty much verbatim from the world's leading geneticists who study this very topic. Indeed, from the very people most of your info comes from.

You're interpreting these things as "race", they say that it proves the fallacy.

I'd like to start of by saying that Barack Obama isnt Black.

He may identify mainly with one side of his ethnicity, but implying that because he's got black in him means hes entirely black asks the question "Well, since hes got white in him what makes him not white?" Its almost like saying that the black in him is an impurity that makes him unable to claim a whole half of what he is.

So Barack Obama isnt Black. He's Black and White. He is both and neither one of these things. You cant be two things and be one or the other.

The fact that we're still trying to categorize this person with one identity proves the fact that as a nation we still have social hurtles to leap.

Socially we may have destroyed the Death Star, but we've still got an Emperor to overthrow. :P

I don't think laughing at ethnic humor is racist, look at Guess Who with ashton kutcher and bernie make there is alot of ethnic jokes in there and your supposed to laugh.
I'm african american, cuban and boriquen and other but i don't identify with one because that would be unfair to my ancestors.

I don't have the time to read whole thread, but my answer for titular question is simple - no. In fact, all kind of humor is insulting to some extent, and there's nothing bad about it. Laughning at joke about blondes or Jews don't make you mysiagonist or antisemite, you just laughs at other people, and that's okay, that's what humor is.

Laughing at racist jokes does not make you racist, it just simply shows you'll laugh at anything.

This thread has been an interesting read and many points I would have made have been made so I have little to add, but I will say this.

I can see the funny side of just about anything, and while I will laugh at racist jokes it isn't about the racism it is the humour. many of these jokes are easy to swap over anyway.

The worst thing about racism is how it is being blown out of proportion in the UK, it is present and it does happen there is no denying it but there is a big difference between laughing at a joke or using certain words carelessly and actually hating someone for their race and abusing them. The problem common sense isn't being applied often enough

alwinbot
Laughing at racist jokes does not make you racist, it just simply shows you'll laugh at anything.

This post and most of the other recent ones miss the point of the whole idea- they're just responding to the thread title in a very simplistic way.
You really should try reading some of the other posts in the thread first, or even just the first one. Responding to the title is just a little banal.

The problem isn't that you're laughing at something. The problem is that a group of people are being vilified and demonised.
You see, "racism" is the operative word here, not "humour". ;)


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This is NOT a simplistic debate with with simplistic ideas that require stupidly simplistic responses. Sorry, but that's the case.

Genejoke
The worst thing about racism is how it is being blown out of proportion in the UK, it is present and it does happen there is no denying it but there is a big difference between laughing at a joke or using certain words carelessly and actually hating someone for their race and abusing them. The problem common sense isn't being applied often enough

Really? That's the worst thing about racism? Not slavery, murder, torture, rape etc and the justification of all the above on the grounds of race?

It must be a blowing out of proportion of epic proportions. Can you give some examples of what you're talking about?

ozoneocean

alwinbot
Laughing at racist jokes does not make you racist, it just simply shows you'll laugh at anything.

This post and most of the other recent ones miss the point of the whole idea- they're just responding to the thread title in a very simplistic way.
You really should try reading some of the other posts in the thread first, or even just the first one. Responding to the title is just a little banal.

The problem isn't that you're laughing at something. The problem is that a group of people are being vilified and demonised.
You see, "racism" is the operative word here, not "humour". ;)


----------------------------------
This is NOT a simplistic debate with with simplistic ideas that require stupidly simplistic responses. Sorry, but that's the case.

Fine, then. If racist jokes are made to hurt specifically, then if one laughs at that with the full knowledge of its impact on the person. Then, he/she is a racist.

ozoneocean
You really should try reading some of the other posts in the thread first, or even just the first one. Responding to the title is just a little banal.

The problem isn't that you're laughing at something. The problem is that a group of people are being vilified and demonised.
You see, "racism" is the operative word here, not "humour". ;)

I think that demonised is far too strong word in this case. Just because certain group of people makes fun at other group of people, it doesn't mean they hate them. We're always laughing at somebody. Does laughing at guy who just had funny accident means we think the worst about him? No, it just means he has made fool of himself in that exact moment, nothing more. If we would try to turn all racist jokes into not racist ones, we would just start laughing at another group of people.

For example, there's a joke about three black people finding magic lamp with geenie, who gives them one wish per head. First two wish themselves to be white and are quite happy about it. Thrith laughs and say "I wan't them to be black again.". There's also version of this joke where geenie gives wishes to sciencist and his two lab assistant. Fist assistants wants to be now on Haiti, in big house with beautiful girlfriend and tons of money. Second aks to be on Hawaii with ten beautiful and horny women. Geenie teleports them to the places of their dreams. Sciencist just says "I need those two after lunch." and goes back to work.

Now tell me, why laughing at joke about black guys who want to be white, because white has better in our society, is supposed to be worse than laugh at old, white man who dedicated his life to science and his dreams to find out secrets of block his view of the world that he cannot see that other people may desire something else, more thrival. Because for me, one joke is offensive to black and another to all those who dedicated their life to science. Because for me, they're both equally offensive. As all jokes are offensive, but until somebody insist they're truth, there's nothing wrong with it.

Ironscarf

Genejoke
The worst thing about racism is how it is being blown out of proportion in the UK, it is present and it does happen there is no denying it but there is a big difference between laughing at a joke or using certain words carelessly and actually hating someone for their race and abusing them. The problem common sense isn't being applied often enough

Really? That's the worst thing about racism? Not slavery, murder, torture, rape etc and the justification of all the above on the grounds of race?

It must be a blowing out of proportion of epic proportions. Can you give some examples of what you're talking about?

okay poor choice of words to say it was the worst thing about it.
But bear in mind that almost everyone is a little bit racist, but people have been sacked or accused of being racist for using phrases that were politically correct for most of their adult lives. I think the drive to combat racism is actually backfiring and causing more tension, it often seems that being seen as racist is worse than being a rapist. That is fucked up!.
Also we have minorities accusing people of racism to get what they want or get out trouble. They abuse they system people see it and that causes more racial tension therefore making the problem worse.

People, I didn't want my topic to get too out of hand here!

I originally meant my topic to be that while it is definately wrong, cruel and evil to vilify, harass, torture and murder people for being different and deny them equal opportunities and vandalise their homes and livelyhoods, is it so racist to simply find the mannerisms of other cultures amusing? Because we can even find these amusing habits endearing and likeable.

The Jews coined such quaint phrases as 'Oy Vay!' and while it may only be TV stereotyping, I see Jewish mothers always say 'Oh, and he seems like such a n-i-c-e bo-y-y!'
But stereotyping wouldn't exist if there wasn't some kind of truth behind it.

The Italians are famous for waving their hands and saying 'Mamma Mia!' and such.

And the Irish with there 'Sure & begorrah! Indeed now!'
The Scottish: 'Ach! An doon't ye ferGIT it!'

And DON'T get me started with the multiple colorful phrases of the Afro-Americans.

Seriously people, first of all most people find these expressions and mannerisms of other cultures LIKEABLE not vilifying.

And since the cultures in question created these mannerisms they brought the scrutiny opon themselves. Caucasian cultures not only included but heading off all the rest.

And as a Canadian I admit freely; Yes we do say 'EH' a lot!
But so do the Australians and Cockney Londoners.

If we were to give up our amusing little mannerisms people we'd all be equals and there'd be no more ridicule.

But I think we'd all be a BORING race of monochromatics.

Genejoke
But bear in mind that almost everyone is a little bit racist, but people have been sacked or accused of being racist for using phrases that were politically correct for most of their adult lives. I think the drive to combat racism is actually backfiring and causing more tension, it often seems that being seen as racist is worse than being a rapist. That is fucked up!.
Also we have minorities accusing people of racism to get what they want or get out trouble. They abuse they system people see it and that causes more racial tension therefore making the problem worse.

I hear this argument all the time (mostly from white people of course!) but I just don't see it reflected in reality. I work for a huge organisation which employs a huge mix of races, have done for nearly twenty years and I know of no example of anyone being sacked for using words or phrases recently deemed politically incorrect. It just doesn't happen. Maybe for circulating racist material or racially abusing a colleague, but that's a very different thing.

I also know of no example of anyone playing the famous 'race card' and if there was an example believe me I would hear about it, from those people who like to drone on about the race card and about how they're taking our jobs blah blah blah. If there's tension, then they are the people who are tense, not the rest of us who are getting on with our work and getting on fine together.

I have no doubt that the things you describe do/have happened, but to portray them as some kind of social trend? That's only a reality in the pages of the Daily Mail.

As you say much of it is sensationalism, but sadly it does happen, and the BNP thrive off it.

meemjar
The Jews coined such quaint phrases as 'Oy Vay!' and while it may only be TV stereotyping, I see Jewish mothers always say 'Oh, and he seems like such a n-i-c-e bo-y-y!'
But stereotyping wouldn't exist if there wasn't some kind of truth behind it.

The Italians are famous for waving their hands and saying 'Mamma Mia!' and such.

And the Irish with there 'Sure & begorrah! Indeed now!'
The Scottish: 'Ach! An doon't ye ferGIT it!'

And DON'T get me started with the multiple colorful phrases of the Afro-Americans.

Seriously?

I guess this is what the foreign world sounds like to you.

Alwinbot.

Come now, I'm just quoting what one sees and hears on TV.
Which like I said are just stereotypes.

But this is just the stuff I said we should just laugh off and dismiss as such and not think it worth taking offense over.

meemjar
Alwinbot.

Come now, I'm just quoting what one sees and hears on TV.
Which like I said are just stereotypes.

But this is just the stuff I said we should just laugh off and dismiss as such and not think it worth taking offense over.

People will take offense.

They have some sort of reason to believe humans are different, and that these differences should be defended and not made light jokes of.

I could honestly care less about people, though. I'm just saying.

Something will always offend someone.
Every joke will not go over with EVERYBODY.
Humor belittles. Thats the nature of the beast.
We're all the same in basic nature but our cultures differ.
And just as I'm not offended by people who might find my little idiosyncracies delightful and/or amusing I too simply find THEIR idiosyncracies likewise and do not despise them for it.

I guess so. Some people cry over the things that others may brush off.


THIS THREAD IS JUST A CAN OF WORMS IMO.

Okay here is a joke, lets see who considers it racially offensive.

Someone
A rich english man is visiting south africa, he has brand new aston martin vanquish to drive around. When he gets to the big open lanes he puts his foot down and drives like a madman. He goes tearing round a bend and see's a couple of black guys in the road, he is going too fast to stop.
He slams on the brakes but still ploughs right into them. One goes through the windscreen ending up head down in the passenger seat the other is thrown clear as the car comes to a halt.

The man immediately calls the police and a while later a white police officer arrives. The man is honest and explains the situation fully and says he has no idea what to do now.
The policeman replies...
"That's easy, we charge this one for breaking at entering and the other over there for breaking and entering and leaving the scene of the crime.

Thoughts please?

I rather see this joke working, if the guy is driving in a minority district in an American city. Also, why charge the second guy for breaking and entering? He never got in the car. It sounds more like he should be charged for a hit and run.

My two cents on improving the joke.

...

Hm? You're saying I was supposed to comment in how offensive it was? Oh right. It's terrible! Just terrible! I'm both shocked and appalled.


...terrible!

okay... so what about blonde jokes then? i mean we covered racism but really the whole deal with jokes and what makes them funny is taking a small grain of truth from a large diverse pool and making it absurd. if you compared that grain to an individual chances are it won't always be true (often it is outdated and no longer really fesible to comparision adding to the idea of rediculousness) and shouldn't be taken as a fact. thats what makes it a joke.

it isn't racist to laugh at a ethnic jest, it's racist to believe in it. and i would like to point out that we are all, all, racist in some way. and of course, there is the times were people are mean and will tell one ethnic joke after anyother just to get to somebody- but those people are just bonifide asshats.

tell me a joke that isn't at someones or somethings expense

You can't divorce belief and language entirely, because language shapes our perception of the world and has tremendous innate power of its own.

Every word signifies something else to us and has its own set of denotations, connotations, and systems of connections with other words. It's how we share information and think about things. There's no way to divorce this from culture, which defines so much for us. Formulaic jokes that become part of cultural discourse set up such signified/signifier relationships in our consciousnesses.

Because of this, when we hear an offensive joke, we know that it's funny because it's funny to think that Black people are stupid or that homosexual men can't be masculine. However, we "know" these things because we've permitted "harmless" jokes to set up these signifying relationships, which in any other form would be considered loathsome. We permit this because we're told that it's funny, and we shrug it off by saying "I don't really believe in it."

But whether it's meant to be funny or not, we still endorse that association every time we allow it to be repeated. I can't help but believe it's horribly insidious.

Ochitsukanai
homosexual men can't be masculine.

who said jokes are harmless? like i said jokes are at someones or somethings expense. finding humor in the ridiculousness of a possibilitily that can relate to anything.

the key word when telling jokes is that it is a joke. the language past that how people react to the joke. people can react any which way even taking the joke and telling it more like a factiod then the joke it started out as. jokes aren't serious by nature but jokers can be.

what interests me is... when everybody has fallen down at some point why do so many people around the world laugh at someone else falling down? if you can stop people from laughing at others falling down completely then you'll be able to stop people finding humor in ethnic jokes.

i agree that words are very powerful, how and when you use them can change the outcome of any event. but i think perspective is more important. are you hearing what was said or how you heard it? from there how will you interpute it into your own understanding and what are your own perspectives that judge how to react? people are stubborn- you can say turn right and people turn left. it's how we hear. think of all those people who can't follow simple intructions or didn't follow that street sign or think in general that, occasionally, rules somehow don't apply to them. we are them.

i wonder about humor sometimes. do we laugh so we don't cry or do we laugh because we are happy? or is it more, we laugh to be happy, and then we'll laugh at almost anything? why do we laugh at all? is there is a time for seriousness only because someone else is serious? or do we laugh because the world is hard and we all want to find joy even if its at someones expense? either ways, i don't mind people laughing at me if i can laugh at them just as hard. sorry if i tangented.

Jokes are about perception, stereotypes and language. Jokes do not translate well from one culture to another and especially from one language to another. Scatalogical humor is universal but some cultural reactions still make no sense to others. Some British humor is lost on we Yanks and just lookat the acrobatics sometimes necessary to translate Japanese humor in the dubbing of anime.

But all cultures enjoy making fun of the differences between one group and another. That is perception. Stereotypes are often all too accurate and telling "racial" cultural humor you can show up how ridiciulous the racism and stereotypes are as well as pointing them out.

Face it Yiddish is funny. Jews realized that a long time ago and some of the funniest things ever done were originally done in Yiddish theater. There's a reason why a comic gag is also called by a Yiddish word : schtick I suggest you all go out and read the book "Jewtopia" and then try to find the script or videos of the off-Broadway show. Some groups take a hold of the humor that may have been directed at them, make it their own and turn it back on the world.

The South African joke is an inditement of a racist society, not at all about how dumb the blacks are. There are numerous off-color jokes about racist hicks and red-necks in the US. Then there are the representatives of three-four groups in the plane, cliff etc and how each stereotypically reacts to the situation. Americans are blindly patriotic cowboys, Poles and Italians are stupid, Scots are cheap, Irish are drunken Catholics (the best humor about them was by the late controversial Dave Allen) Are these stereotypes true? No, should you judge a group by them? A racist would, but someone else would appreciate that the joke is about the stereotype not that each black individual is Stepin Fetchit.

Remember a large part of ethnic humor is also the servants being smarter than the master. (or the racial "inferiors" being smarter than their "betters") Eddie "Rochester" Anderson? The racism of Amos and Andy is still prevelent in Black humor today. The Southern accent has been replaced by the urban dialect but black men are still stupid and stubborn and their wives patient, long-suffering and smart and only let the man think he's in charge.

Even enlightened non-ethnic humor is based on old stereotypes. We understand that and laugh because we realize how ridiculous the stereotype is and at the same time how true. That little Jewish Woman I talk to every morning at work is such a yenta and true to her ethnic stereotype. lol! But she is also very human and that is also funny. Face it we're funny maybe that's why the relaxed state of our facial muscles is a slight smile.

I used to have a "friend" who didn't like Asian people. He told me how his brother, seeing a Chinese man on crutches, turned to him and commented "look, a broken plate! Funniest thing I've seen all day!" And they both laughed and laughed, and laughed.

And he laughed and laughed again when he was telling me about it.

"Plate" was a term they'd come up with for Asian people because they thought Asian people had wide, flat faces, like plates.




That guy was an arsehole and his jokes weren't funny.

-----------

Another one of his gems that seemed to amuse him no end, was that every time he felt cheated at something- in a game, short changed at a shop etc, he'd say that he'd been "jewed'.