I've been listening to some quackcasts and ShadowsMyst brought up something very interesting in Episode 22. She advised that a you need to write a story that caters to your audience's interests NOT your interests.

This kinda surprised me because I always thought that with writing you have to write about what you like or have an interest in otherwise there will be no passion in the writing.

For instance: there was a chapter in the comic Bakuman where the creators thought about writing their comic based on suggestions in fan-letters, but then the editor jumped in and told the main characters straight off that doing that was the last thing you should do (it will end up a fan-comic). You need to write a story that is interesting to you. Yes... it's manga... but you know it's real life comic creators writing about making comics..


I think that she was referring to in-joke comics like maybe sonic sprite comics or bad gag a day works. Or is it like content stuff? Like if you are writing a kids' comic you have to make it kid (and parent approved) appropriate.

I'm not really one way completely or the other on this. Sure I write about what I am interested in initially, but I have extended scenes and played around with character interactions before because my readers show an interest in it through comments. Heck I even had a vote off contest to see if my main character would be male or female.



Anyway let's discuss. Did you pick your genre of your comic specifically to cater to a fanbase? Do you write/plan your story out to your liking or to what you think your audience would like?

Is it better to cater your story for your audience or yourself?

I think its better to cater to your own interest first.

Because thats how you would get the energy and motivation to work on a comic. Otherwise you will burn out and your comic will just end up on permanent hiatus

Just speaking from experience here. Once upon a time I attempted some fantasy story. Because fantasy comics tend to get popular. Or at least I believed that fantasy comic = popularity. By definition of "fantasy" I mean the kind of stuff you see in RPG games (Final Fantasy, etc).

If any of you remember KATROPA thats it. My "fantasy comic". lol Heck. You probably dont even remember it because it only spanned 2 chapters long before I burned out and decided to do Brood Knight and which lasted for a very long time.

And then around 2007, something suddenly "clicked". I couldnt get into it in detail at this point. Maybe I should do a detailed philosophical write up of it. But the point is, I got tired of doing Brood Knight and decided to shift towards a more meaningful comic (or at least believed to be more meaningful), MAG-ISA.

I worked on MAG-ISA... without caring about popularity and all that. I just did it with laser-like focus. And even anticipated that alot of people are gonna hate me. Because come on. MAG-ISA is school shooting fiction and thats the kind of stuff that will get you in the principal's office bare minimum and a police interrogation or something. lol I've got a few haters though that forced me to put up a disclaimer on the comic.

But no. In fact, my popularity skyrocketed. Its become my most successful webcomic and its probably already at this point synonymous with my name. 300+ people favorited it on drunkduck alone. God knows how many more people read it that I cant keep track of.

Though face it. A comic like MAG-ISA will NEVER be extremely popular like charby or modest medusa. No matter how good my art skills get (unless maybe I draw at massive black level or something). Simply because it is just too hardcore and it tends to cater to certain types of people. Like it has a naturally developed "niche market" of its own. Because it tends to resonate with such type of a person.

Based on private interactions with my readers I have noticed that alot of them seem to:
1) Have an IQ of at least 120. Its not like they link me IQ test results and it can also be argued that IQ tests are flawed. But if you have people discussing things in private with me who seem to have advanced knowledge (or at least interest and working knowledge) in subjects like physics, psychology, chemistry, philosophy, biology, history, world religions, metaphysics, political science, computer science, etc... you have to wonder.

2) Be "seeker" types. A seeker is someone who tends to love asking questions like "what is the meaning of life". They also tend to be very interested in digging deep into politics, religion, etc... and they always always always end up figuring out that there is a global New World Order conspiracy and that all of these mainstream religions (I dont care. Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, etc...) are a pack of phonies. They refuse to accept the semi-secular lackadaisical variants of religion. They tend to gravitate towards more spiritual esoteric variants of religions. And often argue that _______ religion is NOT A RELIGION!!! IT IS THE TRUTH!!! (fill in the blank with christianity, islam, or whatever religion you may think of) Either that or they say "I have no religion. I am a spiritual person and just meditate blablabla..." Or maybe I get "I'm an agnostic / atheist but I'm open minded yadda yadda..."

3) Have experiences in where they have been bullied and/or abused by parents. On some level they are hurt inside and when they see a comic like MAG-ISA, something lights up in their mind.

So point is, people like that do not comprise the mass of the human population. And alot of people like that are either too pre-occupied with more intelligent stuff or are in mental hospitals mis-diagnosed with ADD or bipolar or any of those highly flawed, poorly defined "mental illnesses". Only a small section of them would waste their time reading comics. lol


So here ends my self-absorbed egotistical rant. But I felt it to be necessary to help illustrate the point that you must cater more to what resonates with you. Do that and there's always gonna be a type of person who would gravitate towards the stuff you put out and the audience will form on its own.

And most of all it will make you happier and would give you the energy to be able to work on your comics.

I agree with Kyu's first few lines. I think it's important to do a comic that you personally feel invested in, lest you want to become like those hollow 'trend' comics on Smackjeeves.

The trend comics are total crowd pleasers and designed to get favs, usually with boys love or Japanese school settings. It works and they do get favs but the stories have little substance and end up being abandoned often. When you read these types of comics you can kind of "feel" that something is missing (not just smackjeeves but even published Marvel comics) I believe that comes from the author just not caring.

I think it's important to know your audience though. (what pleases and displeases them) I can't really say any way of writing is 'less effective' or 'wrong'

I have said this before. Used Books is a giant fan fiction of itself, because I'm my #1 fan. I suppose it depends on your goals and intentions. The fact that my work is online is secondary to the work itself. I didn't set out to make a webcomic. I had some drawings, and a friend convinced me to upload them. I hadn't set out to make a webcomic or even have 'an audience.' At this point, it is nice to have readers, but I'm still just writing and sharing MY story.

I won't lie. I dig having an audience at this point. They started following my comic because they like how I do it. If I didn't stay true to my own work and objectives, it would not benefit my audience at all. Readers are fantastic, and I use them to further my story -- they don't use me. They help me proofread. They let me know when pacing is off or the story is unclear. They help me identify and improve my weaknesses and give technical advice. A few select readers help me sort out writing blocks and plotting troubles. Most importantly, they encourage me, which has allowed me to stick with Used Books longer than any project I ever attempted before. But the story is my story. It exists for my personal benefit, because I want exactly what I want. As my biggest fan, I assume other 'fans' might like what I like too. It might not be a significant number of people, but they are the coolest people.

While I don't agree with writing FOR an audience, I do agree you should know your audience, and seek out those to whom your comic appeals. Fit the audience to the work, not vice versa. After that, I think it's important to stay true to the work. A serious story shouldn't suddenly go Looney Toons or something. Yes, it will upset the audience, but it's a matter of staying true to the course and integrity of the work, not so much writing 'for the audience.'

I'll parrot what's been said by pretty much everyone here, you should definitely do stories that you're invested in. It's probably fair to say that if you're writing a story that you don't care about any readers you have will catch on that you're not into it. After all, if you're not into it why should they be?
However, it is important to be aware of your audience and how the work is perceived. I believe that being aware of the audience and having some idea of who they are allows you to play with their expectations and potentially deliver a richer experience for all involved.
I suppose to sum up, I think the author/reader relationship works two ways and that it's a mistake to cater to one over the other.

Do your own interest......
The fans will come after....

As much as I agree that you, the creator, needs to be involved and invested with the story, the audience must be considered at all times. Doing so helps you keep yourself under control. A creator is often a terrible editor and critic of their own work, and I only say that because I know it to be true of myself.

Stepping back and thinking about how 'the audience' (a strange mythical beast with a hundred heads, sharp teeth, and grasping claws) will view the story helps you avoid long boring expositions, meandering subplots that go nowhere, paper-thin characters, and so on. But it's not an easy thing to do.

Catering for the audience can be considered fan service.
If your Target Audience (if you have one) and your actual readers/fans are totally different do you shift to stuff you think they'd find more appealing?

Nah, the fact that what you've already done means that you shouldn't make such drastic changes. It's kinda hard to suddenly change a story in the middle of it especially if it's a jerky transition.

Skullbie
I agree with Kyu's first few lines. I think it's important to do a comic that you personally feel invested in, lest you want to become like those hollow 'trend' comics on Smackjeeves.

The trend comics are total crowd pleasers and designed to get favs, usually with boys love or Japanese school settings. It works and they do get favs but the stories have little substance and end up being abandoned often. When you read these types of comics you can kind of "feel" that something is missing (not just smackjeeves but even published Marvel comics) I believe that comes from the author just not caring.

I always preferred D.C. comics but I think I know what you mean, I remember reading some of the letter pages of some D.C. titles in in the 1990s and early 2000s that I found frustrating because it seemed like editors actually took what readers had to say too seriously and it was actually influencing the direction the stories took.
It's hard to say whether Knightfall in particular got the fan reaction it was going for, (it wasn't good,) but knowing that the writers were doing what they were in spite of their fans actually made it better. Then again, the whole idea of Knightfall came about by deciding to give fans what they thought they wanted but maybe I'm getting too far off topic.

usedbooks
While I don't agree with writing FOR an audience, I do agree you should know your audience, and seek out those to whom your comic appeals. Fit the audience to the work, not vice versa. After that, I think it's important to stay true to the work. A serious story shouldn't suddenly go Looney Toons or something. Yes, it will upset the audience, but it's a matter of staying true to the course and integrity of the work, not so much writing 'for the audience.'

You've made some good points here. To be fair though most of us do write for an audience, just an audience that includes ourselves. That being said I agree with the notion that it's important to stay true to the work and ultimately it will be better for the audience if you do. I don't imagine I'll ever have to worry fans but I'd say be aware of what direction the fans want or speculate the story might go but keep in mind that there's nothing wrong with not giving them what they want.

Gunwallace
As much as I agree that you, the creator, needs to be involved and invested with the story, the audience must be considered at all times. Doing so helps you keep yourself under control. A creator is often a terrible editor and critic of their own work, and I only say that because I know it to be true of myself.

I know that I'm a terrible editor and critic of my own work as well but I'm hesitant to take advice of a nebulously defined audience. I'll usually seek out advice of someone that I specifically have some respect for. Not that I've never taken advice from readers before, I just prefer to know who specifically is offering advice.

DarkGesen
Catering for the audience can be considered fan service.
If your Target Audience (if you have one) and your actual readers/fans are totally different do you shift to stuff you think they'd find more appealing?

It can indeed be considered fan service, after all I've said I realize I'm about to come off as a jackass but there's nothing specifically wrong with fan service. "Fan service" is one of those terms that gets thrown around a lot usually when pointing out problems in a piece of work. I'd say that fan service is really only problematic when it detracts from story.

usedbooks
I suppose it depends on your goals and intentions.

As always, usebbooks hits the nail on the head, and does it soooo succinctly!

If your intention is simply to have a No.1 ranked comic (either to make you feel good or because your real intention is to sell lots of advertising/merchandise), then write what you think your audience is going to want.

On the other hand, if your intention is simply to tell a story and any potential financial or other success is very much a secondary consideration, then just write what you think makes a good story.

patrickdevine

Gunwallace
As much as I agree that you, the creator, needs to be involved and invested with the story, the audience must be considered at all times. Doing so helps you keep yourself under control. A creator is often a terrible editor and critic of their own work, and I only say that because I know it to be true of myself.

I know that I'm a terrible editor and critic of my own work as well but I'm hesitant to take advice of a nebulously defined audience. I'll usually seek out advice of someone that I specifically have some respect for. Not that I've never taken advice from readers before, I just prefer to know who specifically is offering advice.

I meant 'audience' in a very general sense, not in any specific one. More 'what would I see if I was reading my own work?' rather than actual readers giving feedback. The audience is you, but with a different way of looking at your work ... did that make any sense? I thought not ;-)

Gunwallace
I meant 'audience' in a very general sense, not in any specific one. More 'what would I see if I was reading my own work?' rather than actual readers giving feedback. The audience is you, but with a different way of looking at your work ... did that make any sense? I thought not ;-)

You mean yourself looking at your own work objectively?

JillyFoo
I've been listening to some quackcasts and ShadowsMyst brought up something very interesting in Episode 22. She advised that a you need to write a story that caters to your audience's interests NOT your interests.

This kinda surprised me because I always thought that with writing you have to write about what you like or have an interest in otherwise there will be no passion in the writing.

For instance: there was a chapter in the comic Bakuman where the creators thought about writing their comic based on suggestions in fan-letters, but then the editor jumped in and told the main characters straight off that doing that was the last thing you should do (it will end up a fan-comic). You need to write a story that is interesting to you. Yes... it's manga... but you know it's real life comic creators writing about making comics..


I think that she was referring to in-joke comics like maybe sonic sprite comics or bad gag a day works. Or is it like content stuff? Like if you are writing a kids' comic you have to make it kid (and parent approved) appropriate.

I'm not really one way completely or the other on this. Sure I write about what I am interested in initially, but I have extended scenes and played around with character interactions before because my readers show an interest in it through comments. Heck I even had a vote off contest to see if my main character would be male or female.



Anyway let's discuss. Did you pick your genre of your comic specifically to cater to a fanbase? Do you write/plan your story out to your liking or to what you think your audience would like?

Is it better to cater your story for your audience or yourself?

Your best work is usually the work that you care about the most.

I can see the idea behind "writing for the audience first". I think I take that approach. I always imagine my comics as an animated series being shown on tv. Not a comic book.

So when I'm making my stories, scenes, and characters I think a LOT about how things will be shown to the audience. How will this episode feel? Will it be a memorable one? I try to make sure the pacing is set correctly. If I made it just for myself I could be happy with my characters being simply talking heads and chatting for hours. But I know I'm putting together something not just for me. Granted it's a show I would want to watch so I am very vested and interested.

But more often than not I am trying to think of how the story will hook and be interesting on different levels taking into consideration my target audience.

There are even times I make changes because I think the audience would appreciate it. Not that I WANT it to happen. But the stories tend to branch and make their own directives. It's my responsibility to pick the best branch and direction.

In highschool my comic was made just for me. I rarely showed it to anyone. It had HORRIBLE talking head syndrome, over the line death for no reason, and porn!

Wait... Actually I think that WOULD be catering to the audience more if it was still like that XD

I don't think I can give any sort of objective advice here, but I have the feeling that making your comic interesting for yourself should be your primary concern. However, it can be a good training to tackle concepts which you normally wouldn't, so taking a hint from your audience might be a good thing too.

As for my own approach: My basic ideas & concepts never take some sort of idealized audience into account. I always start with what I find interesting. But once an audience has gathered that appreciates my comic, I'm willing to listen to their suggestions. But describing that process as catering to my audience would mean oversimplifying it.

In the end, I'm a quite autonomous person - I can get by without an audience, if need be (because I've been doing that for more than ten years, before I discovered webcomics). But I'm also quite sensitive to what people say once they do give me feedback, and I always consider other people's opinions.

I think, ideally, you should be part of the audience. I mean by that, you should be writing a story that you and a lot more people share interests in. If you just write for your own satisfaction, fine. File it away in a drawer and read it on rainy days. No one who writes just for themselves should post anything at all online for others to see... if it's online, you WANT people to love it.

That said, and I can use myself and Time Girls (to be published in July, BTW :-)... I, and many thousands of others are fans of this type story... I am part of the audience. I didn't try to create something then get fans, I didn't write just for fans and not for me... the story targets a fan group which I happen to be a part of.

I really think that is key... find something you love and a lot of other people love as well, and you've got the potential for a real hit and a lot of personal satisfaction.

If you like sexy ecchi manga, draw it! There are thousands of fans out there. If you like superheroes, draw it! There are thousands of fans out there. If you like stick figure porn involving fish... err, that might be one for the rainy day drawer.

Someone
If you like sexy ecchi manga, draw it! There are thousands of fans out there. If you like superheroes, draw it! There are thousands of fans out there. If you like stick figure porn involving fish... err, that might be one for the rainy day drawer.

Actually I'm pretty sure there is an audience for that too.

Fuck the audience.

All of them? Or can I choose which ones?! :3

Gunwallace
As much as I agree that you, the creator, needs to be involved and invested with the story, the audience must be considered at all times. Doing so helps you keep yourself under control. A creator is often a terrible editor and critic of their own work, and I only say that because I know it to be true of myself.

Stepping back and thinking about how 'the audience' (a strange mythical beast with a hundred heads, sharp teeth, and grasping claws) will view the story helps you avoid long boring expositions, meandering subplots that go nowhere, paper-thin characters, and so on. But it's not an easy thing to do.

This is it.

People have mostly misunderstood this idea, but you get it.
(given that I was actually speaking to Shadowmyst in person when she said the things this thread was based on)

Shadowmyst's intent was to describe how you communicate your ideas- is your story understandable? Can people work out what's happening from the action here? Do people actually get that this guy is a villain?
-And ofcourse the obvious dance the writer has to do as a story evolves, when you see what's popular in your story and work out audience expectations.

For instance- In my comic people have developed a particular conception of Pinky's personality and character. For them it's what makes her work, what they like about her. If I deviate from that through carelessness I get negative reactions.

It's important to be able to try and see your story as a reader does so you have a better idea of what works well and what doesn't!

We all have a good idea about that instinctively so we generally make it work regardless, but instincts aren't perfect. ;)

ozoneocean
For instance- In my comic people have developed a particular conception of Pinky's personality and character. For them it's what makes her work, what they like about her. If I deviate from that through carelessness I get negative reactions.

I dunno Oz, it seems to me that's more of a concern of having consistency in characterization rather than a concern of audience expectations. Then again I might just be reading into semantics.

Someone
This is it.

People have mostly misunderstood this idea, but you get it.

Shadowmyst's intent was to describe how you communicate your ideas- is your story understandable? Can people work out what's happening from the action here? Do people actually get that this guy is a villain?
-And ofcourse the obvious dance the writer has to do as a story evolves, when you see what's popular in your story and work out audience expectations.

You are right and that's pretty much how I see it, but I didn't get that from shadowsmysts comments in the quackcast. I had the same reaction as the OP and decided to take it with a pinch of salt. Not to dismiss the advice given but it did sound like she was giving advice on how to make a crowd successful summer blockbuster. With anything like that I consider all the advice and see how to apply it to what I do, and then usually forget 80% of it...

I can not read minds. I don't have access to demographic surveys of an audience. I can't do feedback screenings to float ideas among audience samplings.

Therefore the tools of catering to an audience are not available and all I could do is guess. So I might as well write for myself and if it finds an audience that's great. If not it gives me another thing to beat myself up about. lol!

Always consider the feedback/input of readers/critics. But this is not a democracy. It's a monarchy, and the author is king.

Ofc if you want to be a wise king beloved by the people, you'll listen to their input. Just use your wisdom and judge the merits of said input.

Genejoke

Someone
This is it.

People have mostly misunderstood this idea, but you get it.

Shadowmyst's intent was to describe how you communicate your ideas- is your story understandable? Can people work out what's happening from the action here? Do people actually get that this guy is a villain?
-And ofcourse the obvious dance the writer has to do as a story evolves, when you see what's popular in your story and work out audience expectations.

You are right and that's pretty much how I see it, but I didn't get that from shadowsmysts comments in the quackcast. I had the same reaction as the OP and decided to take it with a pinch of salt. Not to dismiss the advice given but it did sound like she was giving advice on how to make a crowd successful summer blockbuster. With anything like that I consider all the advice and see how to apply it to what I do, and then usually forget 80% of it...

Yes, Shadow framed her statement poorly.

OF COURSE no author should ever write a story by trying to pander exactly to what they think an audience wants, so the obvious answer to JillyFoo's interpretation of it is to say "yourself first every time!" or else why bother doing a webcomic?

And that's pretty much exactly why Shadow didn't actually mean that.

I'd like to think of the comic that I'm doing, Keeping Up with Thursday, caters to both. Or at least that's what I'm aiming for. I was thinking about my audience from the start, and over time, it will eventually segue into something I want it to be. Hopefully the audience will still be around when it happens, but it will definitely help, I think, shifting from a different perspective and tone which will hopefully disband it from the first initial glance.

I never imagined KUWT as a kid's comic. I will say that much. It looks that way, and the cute, innocent moments are there, but I never really wanted it - nor would I want it to be, a comic that's family-friendly. As much as I miss my childhood, and was glad to see it again a few years back on stuff I missed, I think the past is done. KUWT is sorta in the vein of taking what we probably enjoyed back then, things we took note of and remembered, and bringing in the change to make it more grounded in realism. There won't be any cheese/mouse-related puns for character names, no implications of fandom in there that other people might probably would do in a comic like this, squashing-and-stretching jokes that are too Toony, things like that... but there will be little nods and smiles to the Tom and Jerry cartoon feeling of back then. I'm looking for a straightforward tale told in this Bluth-like quality. No singing, dancing, etc. You get the idea.

Sometime ago I mapped out the entire storyline on paper, then did a more detailed version on my computer for my own keeping. As I wrote it out on the whim, I noticed that every detail I added into it and the details into it made it something fully complete.

In appearance, and for the next while for now, it will look and feel like it's a comic that might've come about when a 'Keeping Up with Thursday' movie probably showed up around 1989 or something. I think that's sorta why I have a small fanbase at the moment, because of that, and I'd like to keep it. I think that's the key to keeping them around. Eventually, the story shift, I think, in my vision - will hopefully be what sets it apart from those. Maybe that'll help it too; the art probably won't help it, but I'd like to craft something that's almost into a really good serial series. A little bit like classic comic Batman, The Mummy (remake), some Indiana Jones or those old black-and-white films from the day, things like that... or I dunno, Martin Scorscesse, in the sense.

Hmm.. looks like I wasn't very clear on the Quackcast, as this seems to be generating a lot of confusion. Sometimes I get a bit excited when I'm talking about a subject I'm passionate about and I'm not always as clear as I want to be.

Firstly, Let me clarify that I believe you should write about what you love and what you are passionate about. Ideally you should be writing something that you yourself would enjoy and want to write. I believe I said as much in the Quackcast, but I'd have to go back and listen to site exactly where. I DO NOT think you should try to write about something or in a genre you don't particularly care or like just because its popular or you feel it will strike it with an imaginary audience.

BUT, that being said, unless you intend to write the story and put in a dark drawer for yourself alone, you are ultimately writing with the hope that someone else, besides yourself, will read and enjoy what you are creating.

When I talked about writing for an audience, I don't mean a specific audience. I mean it in the same context that an actor on broadway performs for an audience, or the people in the movie theater are an audience. You are putting it out there for someone besides yourself to experience. And that person, even if its just one dude, doesn't live inside your head. They don't know you, your experiences, your life, etc. They can only go on what you've presented. Much like the misunderstanding of my comment on the Quackcast, even if that's not what I meant, its what you 'the audience' took away.

In that way, it's important to remember that anyone who isn't you can't read your mind, and that you have to be mindful that you are creating an experience through your world for someone else to enjoy. I think JustNoPoint expressed this idea the best. Thinking of your comic like a show, what to show when, how to show it, keeping the pacing appropriate, keeping things intriguing and exciting, making sure characters are well rounded and not flat, etc. A lot of these can be covered by learning how to write properly, understanding plot, character development, pacing, conflict, etc.

The more accessible a work is for people to grasp and get into, the more popular its going to be. Part of that accessibility is being able to communicate the story you love to write in a way that anyone picking up the work can understand and plug into. The more difficult a story or comic is to for people to figure out and get invested in, the fewer people will connect with it.

ShadowsMyst

That's what I tried to say but apparently according to Abt_Nihil and Skulbie it makes me a know -it-all...? :P

I did miss JustNoPoint's post about it though. Thanks for pointing that one out :)

I did miss JustNoPoint's post about it though.

When you replied I was wondering why you didn't agree with me... I kinda just sat here thinking... "Um, isn't that what I said too?" :P

I assumed I worded it badly or something.

JustNoPoint
I assumed I worded it badly or something.

Naw, I just totally blanked on that section of the thread.
You know I'd almost swear that the forums sometimes fail to render all the replies? There are any times when I'll open up a thread again and suddenly see a whole lot of posts in the middle that I didn't see the first time and I'd swear blind that they weren't there before!