kyupol, I both agree and disagree with you. You are correct about how abrasive the old DD could be, both to long time DDers and newcomers. I remember getting into some heated arguments when some people placed uncalled for criticisms in the comments block of a strip or comics page. But it wasn't that people took comic art more seriously in the old days as it was that they took themselves more seriously and did not care if they were being fair in their criticisms or deliberately cruel for the fun of being cruel.

It's the cruel for the fun of cruelty that the mods and administrators eventually put a stop to. They made it very plain that you use the PQ system for strong criticisms or take it to the proper place inside the forums where it could be monitored.

People are still very serious about cartooning but they are also much more civilized now.

In the very, very short time I've been here, I've managed to connect with some great people here. I have to say this is one of the friendliest communities I've ever seen on the internet. Everyone is just genuinely respectful of one another but will offer good advice when appropriate. I'm really glad I discovered this place. The people are wonderful!

Kyupol I think you make a rather dangerous connection between being rude and being "serious about comics".
You can take comics seriously without being unduly unpleasent or running someone else down.

harkovast
Kyupol I think you make a rather dangerous connection between being rude and being "serious about comics".
You can take comics seriously without being unduly unpleasent or running someone else down.

Its because I remember this particular kind of cycle I used to see on drunkduck that kept on repeating itself:

1) Somebody makes a valid criticism of a comic. Lets say something like "I like the story because of blablabla and yadda yadda yadda... but you know, the way you draw hands is sometimes off. Especially when you do this or do that and particularly in page so and so. And also, the story would have been better if billy bob slept with jilly jane or something. But no. Billy bob had to die thats why it sucked."

2) The one who got criticized takes it too personally and tells the person giving criticism to fuck off. "IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, DON'T COMMENT!!! PERIOD!!!" Or something along the lines of "Omg. Look whos talking. I don't understand how you have the guts to criticize my work if you yourself can't even draw/write for shit. You're an idiot. Fuck you."

3) Then critic defends himself/herself. And it ends with something along the lines of "Look. If you can't take criticism, get out of drunkduck and keep your comic in your mom's basement or something. And movie critics can't direct movies and yet they criticize movies. STFU with your lameass argument that I cannot criticize your work just because I cannot draw."

4) Then the retaliatory snipings (practice of putting a 1 on every page of the comic together with rude/offensive comments) and flame wars commence until one of them whines enough about it to the admin and admin does something about it.


I feel that if they werent too serious (and immature) about it, they wont be flaming each other like shit.

Its the whole idea of taking some kind of personal vendetta over a comic. Artists tend to take their work so seriously that it affects em emotionally when somebody doesn't like their stuff.

Once upon a time I went to art college and I saw some people who couldnt take criticism. Tears literally fell from some people's eyes and it surprised me.


Going back on topic, I agree with the admin's decision to base the comic's rankings on the number of hits it gets rather than the average score its rated. Because that way, there's really no motivation to "snipe" another comic because you feel that somehow, that crappy comic doesn't deserve its spot in the top 30.

These days, I'm only motivated to actually crit a comic if:
- I got totally wowed by it and I'm thinking OMG THIS IS AWESOME I gotta comment on it!!!
- If maybe its some kind of pm deal where I pm somebody to criticize my comic then I do the same thing for him/her.

There used to be a graphic that someone made (I... think it was a bear or something? some animal?) that had text saying 'please crit me!', and if they put it in their author comments or into their page html, then people who were reading the page knew it was okay to leave crits for that comic. It wasn't a bad idea, I'm not really sure why it didn't last longer.

Skoolmunkee, that sounds like a good system.
Though I find the idea of not wanting to hear what other people think of your work weird.
If I don't want people to form judgments of it, why put it on the inter net at all?
I think people should say what they honestly think. Now there is a line between being honest and constructive and just being rude, obviously, but if something is glaringly obvious or a fault emotes a strong reaction, I would expect someone to say something.

If you want to see what people honestly think, you should take a look at the Something Awful webcomic forums. I think skoolmunkee will bear me out there, considering some of their critique is great...some of it will leave you with about 20 layers of skin less.

DD I have found is a nice balance, if you really want constructive crit, then ask for it in author comments. Or post the comic up for review in the right section. There are some people who'll offer critique regardless of course.

I think there is a balance between being overly nice as to make your comments meaningless and beign excessively cruel and harsh.
You can suggest ideas to improve a comic without leave someone pummeled.

Harkovast
as to make your comments meaningless and beign excessively cruel and harsh.
You can suggest ideas to improve a comic without leave someone pummeled.

http://www.viruscomix.com/enrahaenraha.jpg

^that and their own asses probably got pummeled in a critique. For example, and not naming his name, I saw a comment flaming a friends comic. I went to the kids profile and saw he had no comics listed, but scroll down to his 'recent forum topics'.. and he was asking for crit for his comic. He got it quite harshly, even though the critique was spot on it was merciless suggesting the kid start over. I guess the kid deleted his comic afterwards

harkovast
I think there is a balance between being overly nice as to make your comments meaningless and beign excessively cruel and harsh.
You can suggest ideas to improve a comic without leave someone pummeled.

Indeed you can, however a lot of people enjoy leaving the creator/artist in a bloody heap on the floor sadly.

Doctor Shadow
If you want to see what people honestly think, you should take a look at the Something Awful webcomic forums. I think skoolmunkee will bear me out there, considering some of their critique is great...some of it will leave you with about 20 layers of skin less.

The webcomics thread on SA (in BSS) is interesting stuff, and lots of high profile creators post there. If you intend to offer your comic up for sacrifice though, you had better have a damn good product. Although I will say watching someone get torn down and then make endless weak explanations (or blowing up in rage) are pretty entertaining. If the threadgoers feel the comic isn't worth their time to read, they'll make it worth their time to ream. Also, they hate furry comics so don't even try.

I don't intend to let the SA thread know about my new comic, which will probably be an average effort at best. :)

So they give actually suggestions and advice to improve the comic? Just curious since it sounds like all they do is make fun of it or tear it to shreds.

harkovast
I think there is a balance between being overly nice as to make your comments meaningless and beign excessively cruel and harsh.
You can suggest ideas to improve a comic without leave someone pummeled.

Actually, I most enjoy "none of the above" commentary. It's nice to have a compliment or a criticism now and then, but the comments on DD (at least many of them) have nothing at all to do with rating or critique -- because most of the readers are not reading with that mindset. The comment section of the comics I read anyway are mostly related to the story at hand, commenting on what is happening, how they perceive the situation, what they feel towards the antagonist or protagonist. If they are unclear of something, they ask a question.

Sometimes, I think people (especially outside DD looking in) think because there's not criticism going on in comments, then it must be empty compliments. It isn't. It isn't a bunch of grinning idiots patting each other on the back. It's a real base of readership discussing (discussing, not critiquing...) a story.

I think it's the best compliment when people are leaving meaningful commentary and discussion on your story. It shows they are into it rather than just wandering through and leaving a random note, suggestion, or whatever on the latest page. I have a feeling that most "critique" comments are left by people who've seen just a single page or two of your work. They don't care. Sometimes the comment is helpful, but quite often, they're not because they don't have a feeling for your overall strengths and weaknesses (maybe that day you were having a bad day drawing one thing but managed to excel at another thing that you usually do horribly at).

I've noticed at DD, most people start leaving story commentary at first, leave comments regularly, and as they get a feel for the comic creator, their work, and their general personality, they start leaving suggestions and critique in their comments too. It's not planned out like that, but it is the natural progression of things and why DD is so "friendly" in general. After all, you aren't likely to ignore or lash out at a suggestion from a regular reader. You won't be thinking they are just some passing critic that gets a kick out of bashing people's work. And you aren't going to dismiss them as not knowing anything -- because they follow your work. You know they like your story and actually have your success in mind.

Skullbie
So they give actually suggestions and advice to improve the comic? Just curious since it sounds like all they do is make fun of it or tear it to shreds.

I've seen plenty of good advice given out in that thread. It kind of depends on the comic and the attitude of the person posting it. If the comic is total crap, or if the poster comes off as arrogant (or a doormat), it might get made fun of. There is usually still advice to be found, you just have to sift past the huge amount of vitriol. I think the really horrible events have been rare... just memorable. Ace Plughead and Fesworks are the only two recent ones I can think of, and those were more because those guys could not shut up about themselves than anything else.

If the comic is average-to-pretty-good, and the poster sounds like a person genuinely interested in getting advice and improving (without getting angry, or without rolling over and taking it all with a fat smile) then they will usually get some kind of advice... usually in the 'do more backgrounds' to 'trim down your text' to 'practice anatomy' range. It helps to ask for specific types of critique like color or panel flow or something. You have to be confident that your comic is worth something but realize that however good it may be there's still room to improve it.

If the comic's fantastic then there is praise and usually still some suggestions for improvement, but more nitpicky.

I'll admit though that if someone unknown comes into the thread just to post their comic, it will usually get ignored unless there's something out of the ordinary about it (good art, or perhaps extra bad) because I don't think they particularly want to become all about critique. Advice and such takes time and only the people who are motivated will do it... so if they don't know you and don't think much of your comic, they won't say much. If they don't know you and don't like your comic, then the jerks will come out and go to town.

For the most part the thread is made up of people who create or care about comics, are largely professional about it, and know that people need crits/advice. They're all going to be blunt about whatever needs to be improved, but most people actually interested in improving can take that. (I think that's how the thread weeds out people not actually willing to improve.) Bluntness is okay, but I pretty much think that as soon as someone starts using profanity or out of control metaphors (like Nazis) their criticisms should just be ignored. Unfortunately there are 2 or 3 people in that thread who think that kind of crit is the most fun, which gives the thread a bad rap.

It's not really a place to get advice if you're just starting out or are married to your work... I kind of think of it as the advanced class. :)

Doctor Shadow
Indeed you can, however a lot of people enjoy leaving the creator/artist in a bloody heap on the floor sadly.

That sort of thing is sad. Simply because it's so easy and worthless. Tearing someone down about their creation is as easy as popping a balloon and takes less intelligence. I despise the cretins who make that their goal.

You don't need to praise someone in order to help them. Tearing them down is also completely unnecessary. You can provide advice and critique that simply addresses the qualities of the work without the weight of idiot opinion behind it.

I started posting on this forum just a short while ago, and I can't believe I hadn't sooner. :(

This place is nice - really nice. And the mods and admins are responsive, helpful, and explain things well. AND they also have actual personalities. :D I wish more forums were like this. Not like another comic hosting forum at which I recently started posting.

True I was called "annoying" within a few replies in my own introduction thread here (hadn't gotten that since I was 15, and back then it was called "happy" :D), but I soon realized I had much more merit and self-worth than that person could ever hope to achieve. :) I almost wish I could share it.


BACK ON TOPIC! There is good discussion here.
I kind of wish I got critique more often. I need thicker skin, and also to improve.

I try to give it whenever it comes to my mind, when I feel I can be helpful, but most of the comics I read seem like they either don't need critique (aka I love them and wouldn't change a thing) or wouldn't want it (lots of people like to acknowledge/live with their stick figures and horrible lettering). It's also nicer to read nice comics merely as a reader (and it's lucky to have good comics online that are so well-done that you actually forget your critical eye for a bit <3).

I think I'm too frank when it comes to critique sometimes, so it comes off sounding more like opinion. I try to avoid that, because unhelpful opinion-critique is what I was kind of incorrectly brought up on.

I don't like having to think of critiques in the pages' comment boxes, and now I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who feels that way. I can post helpful stuff in a comic's forum. :D

I believe that Somethingawful forum requires you to pay to even read it, much less post in it. Please, like I'm going to pay money to read/post in an internet forum. They're the ones who can get over themselves.

mlai
I believe that Somethingawful forum requires you to pay to even read it, much less post in it. Please, like I'm going to pay money to read/post in an internet forum. They're the ones who can get over themselves.

Some people here are already members or know people who are :) Also, sometimes the subforums are 'opened' and can be read publicly so they can attract new members.

There have been people who signed up just to join the thread though.

ozoneocean
You don't need to praise someone in order to help them. Tearing them down is also completely unnecessary. You can provide advice and critique that simply addresses the qualities of the work without the weight of idiot opinion behind it.

*nods*

Indeed, it's a fine line really. Some people are excellent at critique and they know how to approach telling someone what might need fixing. Other people are just plain rude.