Someone
Being an atheist, I don't believe in evil.

But that really depends on what one's definition of evil is, which I believe is one of the hardest concepts to define. Personally, I would be stumped if ever asked to define what 'evil' is, the best response I could give would be something that goes against Natural Law, which is also difficult to define.

snark

Someone
Being an atheist, I don't believe in evil.

But that really depends on what one's definition of evil is, which I believe is one of the hardest concepts to define. Personally, I would be stumped if ever asked to define what 'evil' is, the best response I could give would be something that goes against Natural Law, which is also difficult to define.

interesting way to put evil. Most people would usually define evil as something that does great harm and damage out of pure maliciousness or something. like some people would define "true evil" in human beings as those who are rapists, murderers, etc.

But then again, there's so many gray areas in that regards.
For instance-- Child molesters. While not all of them led an fucked up childhood, the majority of them were raped/molested when they were younger. Often by family members or close family friends who were in turn child molester/rapists themselves.
The chain of abuse follows like this:
1.Systematic abuse by adult as an child.
2. Child feels like he/she can't tell anybody, feels helpless, etc.
3. Child starts acting out, and even starts to engage in sex acts on his/her own, even acting out the actions of the adult which sexually assaulted him/her on others younger than the child.
4. Child feels better having done an awful act as an outlet, and become addicted to it.
5. The child, having an distrust of adults, grows up to have no attraction to adults but having the addiction of taking it out on other younger kids sexually, becomes attracted to children only.
6. He/she finds some child(ren) to systemically abuse like the adult did to him/her when she/he was a child, and thus potentially passing on that "mental illness".

So one could argue that Child rapists/molesters are not evil, but rather the act itself. They were people who felt that they had no way out of the horrible situation they were in, and went down a wrong path in attempting to create a outlet for themselves, and become very corrupted.

In fact, I would describe rapists of all kinds along with murderers as very corrupted more than evil.

Hmm. I don't really believe in a true evil, now that I think of it. most likely why I don't believe in a hell.

Sorry for the rambling.....

I don't believe in Evil, the noun. Evil, little E, is just an adjective.

To say that Atheists as a group are not morally centered is hilarious.

Some of the most evil people in the world were religious. I could name names, but I'm not going to bother. Just think of some of the most evil people in history, and check out their religious beliefs.

As a matter of fact, I would venture to say the closer to "God" you think you are, the farther away from the laws of man do you place yourself.

I wonder... is Iraq still Evil?

Over time, of course, I became an adult, and understood that our life as civilized people required a code of conduct and behavior. I am an adult human, i make an active choice to be a part of a society around me, to take part in its activities and its rules. Of course, I am not slavishly obedient - I have been very active in trying to change some of my societies rules, and in places where i thought them silly and harmful, i have openly opposed and even publicly broken them. But I have always sought to these things responsibly, as the greater obligation remains.

I was raised to believe in this process - that an adult chooses to take part in human affairs and society, and gets certain privileges and responsibilities because of it.

The point I'm trying to raise by using the above quote... is the REASON why religion was invented.

Religion was invented to counteract human nature because humans react with their own instincts that may cause harm to others. It's also a code of conduct and behavior.

Lets say the bible was just written by humans and NOT by divine forces (I believe the bible was written by GOD through the inspiration of humans)... whoever wrote that has a grasp of psychology even before psychology was formalized as a science. As evidenced by the part where Jesus was tempted by Satan when he was fasting in the desert.

Jesus was hungry and it is known that hunger weakens your will to fight and may cause you to do irrational acts. In countries where hunger is rampant like North Korea, there are stories about soldiers making "checkpoints" just to rob people of food... and people eating rats and tree bark... and acts of cannibalism in the rural areas.

Hunger can lead people to commit things that may cause harm to others and themselves. When Satan tested Jesus, Jesus kept saying "NO" to Satan.

Even if by chance that story was invented by one of the zealots (hero worship can create lots of "incredible feats" for the hero being worshipped), it is an indication of an awareness of human nature being prone to causing harmful behavior to others for the sake of themselves.

Therefore... the vast MOTIVATION for majority of believers to do good is the idea of heaven and hell. Like what somebody pointed out here about working in charity and surprising everyone about his atheist background.

Reward and Punishment... and not chasing that which is good because it is good is what drives most people to behave in certain ways. If you do this, you go to heaven if you do this you go to hell...

Reward and Punishment is more effective in keeping order in a society. That is why there are laws for instance... that threaten you with "demerit points" and fines and possible jail time if you overspeed, if you drink and drive, etc...

Do you think people will drive at the speed limit if there was no law that regulates speed limits?

If you tell a person that regulating your speed is GOOD because it will prevent accidents that may kill people. Do you think the vast majority of society will drive safely if one day, speed limits are abolished in the road?

I doubt it.

And from personal experience, there were times when I wanted to punch somebody in the face especially in the auto garage I work in. I did not proceed with the attack because of the PUNISHMENT that awaits me that can come in:

- loss of job
- charges of assault that may result in fines and/or jailtime depending on how bad I beat this guy up.
- The "thou shall not kill" part of the 10 commandments also extends to ASSAULT and SUICIDE.

Another atheist argument I saw in the past:

"If you need an alpha male up in the sky for you to do good, then you're mentally retarded!!!"

So... the rest of society IS "mentally retarded" for needing laws... for needing rewards and punishments to keep them in line...


Just my 2-cents. :D

One thing all religions have in common is the basic tenet of the Golden Rule. Strangely enough, the same goes for laws. However, our laws don't reflect many rules set forth in the various religions. Our laws are secular. The need for religion is obsolete, with regard to the use of religion to legislate behavior. With regard to helping a person's soul, religion will always be necessary. Don't confuse the two.

kyupol
Religion was invented to counteract human nature because humans react with their own instincts that may cause harm to others. It's also a code of conduct and behavior.

.....Reward and Punishment is more effective in keeping order in a society. That is why there are laws for instance... that threaten you with "demerit points" and fines and possible jail time if you overspeed, if you drink and drive, etc...

Do you think people will drive at the speed limit if there was no law that regulates speed limits? If you tell a person that regulating your speed is GOOD because it will prevent accidents that may kill people. Do you think the vast majority of society will drive safely if one day, speed limits are abolished in the road?

I think we need to be careful about conflating individual choice and the need to keep order in society. We do need rewards and punishment to keep order in society, and yes we do need laws and jails to help different people with different beliefs living together. These were laws created by men, not god, to help keep order and there is no need for god or divine retribution to maintain these laws. Retribution of fines and jail is quite adequate.

So when we come to individual choices about doing good, that gets murkier. But I do not think god or divine retribution is required either. If you see someone hungry, do you think "I should get this person some food" or do you think "if I don't get this person some food, god will send me to hell"?

What you are saying is the classic argument Dosteovsky made in his statement, "without God, everything is permitted."* But that doesn't scare me. Human nature is selfish, corrupt, and capable of great evil, that is absolutely true. But human nature is also selfless, caring, loving, and capable of great charity. Human nature is both of these things, and I don't think god is necessary to keep out baser selves in check. Appealing to our better nature, along with societally-agreed upon restraints of laws, is quite adequate.

To answer why atheism is gaining ground lately, I think it also gets into Maslow's heirarchy of needs [en.wikipedia.org], which in a nutshell says that people have to have certain needs met (food, shelther, clothing, etc.) before they can turn their thoughts to self-actualization and higher-level moral thinking. For millenia, most people have been peasants, farmers, etc., hardworking folks who were putting most/all their energy into surviving. In the last century or two, the West has developed the concept of "free time" and "vacations" where we do NOT have to spend every waking moment trying to survive. So I think there are more people who are able to examine their lives, their morals, their conscience, etc. and more people than before are discovering they are atheists. I'm not saying that's the one and only reason, but I suspect that's part of why we see more talk of atheism now than in centuries past.



*ok, there's some question about whether Dosteovsky actually said this, but it's usually attributed to him, so I'm attributing it to him too.

kyupol
Religion was invented to counteract human nature because humans react with their own instincts that may cause harm to others. It's also a code of conduct and behavior.

I would disagree with that. From your post, you seem to suggest that religion and laws are required to keep humanity from destroying itself, though I'd like to suggest otherwise. Humans, like many other mammals are social animals, if we all operated on purely selfish instincts, no possible societies could form as each human would be purely individual with no sense of community. However, that is not the case. True, I admit that laws are required to keep such incredibly large and diverse communities in check, however, should laws be abolished, communities would not. Indeed, it would become Darwinian, with stronger groups destroying weaker groups, yet the basic principles of human communion with one another would still exist. Therefore meaning that rather then simply acting out of selfish impulse, humanity by instinct will also seek to protect one another, even if that were to be applied in a more limited context.

TnTComic
However, our laws don't reflect many rules set forth in the various religions.

Hate to be devil's advocate here, but that statements rather incorrect. There are three major legal traditions in the world, Sharia, Civil and Common law. Sharia law is principly founded in the teachings of Islam, whereas both Civil and Coomon Laws share their roots in the Judeo-Christian traditions. Therefore, as much as 'secular' countries (and myself) would like to deny it, nearly every country's legal system has religious roots.

Furthermore, the argument that this only applies in Western Christian countries is invalid here. Malaysia for example, is a Muslim country opperating under Common Law. Therefore whilst the country is primarily Islamic, its legal system is largely based on Protestent teachings.

snark

TnTComic
However, our laws don't reflect many rules set forth in the various religions.

Hate to be devil's advocate here, but that statements rather incorrect. There are three major legal traditions in the world, Sharia, Civil and Common law. Sharia law is principly founded in the teachings of Islam, whereas both Civil and Coomon Laws share their roots in the Judeo-Christian traditions. Therefore, as much as 'secular' countries (and myself) would like to deny it, nearly every country's legal system has religious roots.

You missed my point. My point was that all religions reflect the Golden Rule at their most basic levels. Don't steal, don't kill, et cetera. The religions add their own flavors on top of the basics, but at their heart they have the same basic rules. Don't do to others what you don't want done to you.

Laws are based off the same idea. They are not based off religions, they're based off the same ideas that religions are based on.

If anything, the roots of our laws began with the Code of Hammurabi, which predated modern religions by hundred of years. But how could that be, if laws are based on religion? Simple. Because even then, people had the same basic code of conduct: don't do to others what you don't want done to you.

Kyupol - when you quote me I would very much appreciate it if you would make it clear that the quote is from me.

You are of course free to quote when you respond to what I say, but it makes me uncomfortable when I am quoted without clear attribution. It doesn't matter much in a short thread, but in a long thread, it is not always clear to people who is being quoted.

This is Especially important when you are quoting me for the purpose of disagreeing with me. If you attribute the quote, it is easier for interested parties to go back and read my complete post and make up their own minds.

After all, some of my posts are clever and I deserve to get credit for them. And, of course, some of my posts are foolish, and I deserve the credit for those, too.

Just replying to the OP.

Atheism might be cool in a bad boy way. Face it. You just can't be a rebel if you go to church. >shrug<

I personally never bring it up outside the internet unless I've known someone for quite some time.

I don't like being percieved as being immoral simply because I don't go to church, and I hate it when people try to convert me.

It's like trying to convince someone who hated a particlar movie how good it really was, only worse, because they truly think they have you're best interests in mind. You're a nice guy right? They don't want to see you wind up in hell because you didn't like their movie.

I think I lost a metaphore back there somewhere...

kyupol
A doctor can REPAIR but not CREATE.

Bull. Know any doctors with kids?

Bull. Know any doctors with kids?

That is... to PROcreate.

Not create something out of nothing. I work in an auto garage and we cannot fix the car without the parts... the parts wont be created without the metal or plastic or crude oil. Its something out of something.

If evolution theory is to be discussed, it is something I can agree on. Then I know... the argument is gonna be brought up about the bible being WRONG in saying 7 days.

7 days... does not define "24 hours". Life forms started out in their simplest forms. Single celled bacteria... to organisms in the oceans made of a few hundred cells... then it gets more and more complex from there. In the 7 days in the bible, notice how simplest animals are first created before humans were created?

kyupol

Bull. Know any doctors with kids?

That is... to PROcreate.

Not create something out of nothing. I work in an auto garage and we cannot fix the car without the parts... the parts wont be created without the metal or plastic or crude oil. Its something out of something.

If evolution theory is to be discussed, it is something I can agree on. Then I know... the argument is gonna be brought up about the bible being WRONG in saying 7 days.

7 days... does not define "24 hours". Life forms started out in their simplest forms. Single celled bacteria... to organisms in the oceans made of a few hundred cells... then it gets more and more complex from there. In the 7 days in the bible, notice how simplest animals are first created before humans were created?

Yeah, the 7 days thing works if you take it as a type of metaphor.

Unfortunately, too many Christians/Catholics/etc tends to take that whole creation story a little too literally....so they believe that 7 days is litterally 7 earth days for the god that they believe in to have created something. And that's when that vaildity comes into question.

It's like they go: "No! it's seven EARTH DAYS by HUMAN standards!! That's the only way or else!"
But some smart ones goes: "Why does it HAVE to be by human standard time that god creates things? For all we know, hundreds or thousands of years is like mere days to God..."

I thought it's common knowledge that Bible got the general order of evolution wrong? That it said animals came first, then plants. Or something like that.

mlai
I thought it's common knowledge that Bible got the general order of evolution wrong?

"Bible" and "wrong" in the same sentence?

You know, you can probably be burned at the stake for saying things like that. I mean, not here obviously, but ... you know, somewhere.
;)

Hmm, It's funny how these things go from talking about Atheism to why Christianity sucks (with all other religions represented by it and thought of like it).

So... Do you think Atheism is cool? he. :)
Maybe this debate is played out, what do people think?

Ugh, TNT, our laws didn't begin with Hammurabi... That's a very early "written" record of some very harsh laws. As far as Western culture uses them: they came to use through the bible. If anything they were probably put into effect originally using some sort of religious authority, since that's what the older cultures relied on a lot more heavily.

But you're perfectly sound about the "same ideas" thing. And laws are about (mostly) applying to the community and the situations of the day so they always need to be revised and changed- so yes, the laws we use today are secular because religion just isn't equipped to deal with that sort of management (change is too slow), and for that same reason our laws don't have much in common with Hammurabi apart from the fact that they happen to be a code of law as well. So again, that's another part of why Atheism gains acceptance: religion has less and less relevance to the day to day.

This topic has tended to be rather abstract - let me bring it down to Earth.

In the US, Atheism is having a short period of being cool. I don't believe that this is because of anything inherent to atheism itself, however, it's a response to years of growing fundamentalist christian power. Look, the US, over the last generation or so, has become an increasingly polarized nation, with the "religious right" growing in power and the rest of the country unsure how to join the debate.

Generally, Americans have a lot of respect for religious faith, so they have been slow to look crazed evangelicals in the face and say "Um you guys are just crazy and evil!"

Im sorry kids, but I've read the bible - modern fundamentalist christianity, with its Rapture and it's love of military strength, its passion for "nuclear families" and it's embrace of corporatism.... well, I don't see all that in the bible. it's a weird, mutant, modern form of Christianity that many Americans are still kind of confused by.

I saw a poll recently where most Americans think the bible says "God helps those who helps themselves." Actually, Jesus does not say that.

And as America has weathered this storm of Christian power, they have grown tired of it.

Here's an interesting article about a book on the topic:

http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdateNarrow&BarnaUpdateID=280 [barna.org]

The authors essentially argue that Christianity is rapidly growing unpopular with young people who aren't Christians. That is, non-chrsitian Americans used to say that they had great respect for the moral stands and moral value of chrsitians - now, they more and more see christians as bigots.

And why?

Mostly, because they young people increasingly feel that Christians show excessive contempt towards gays and lesbians.

And so yes - Atheism starts to look Kewl. But as an atheist, i can tell you, atheism isn*t really kewl. It's just a reaction against what is seen, increasingly, as the mindless ant-gay bigotry of the Fundamentalist Right in America.

I expect that we'll see a more serious attempt by other Christians and other religious groups to separate themselves from the fundamentalists on this - and about time.

But for a short period, Atheists like myself will be kewl, i suppose. Not because young people are actually interested in a naturalistic worldview, but because they have come to see Christianiaty as being all about the Rapture, homosexuals, and other right wing hobby-horses.

Yeah, I agree, that is one of the important aspects. I made a similar point in my first post on this thread. You've expanded on it a bit though.

But conversely, I think these crazy examples of charismatic Christianity have come about in response to people moving away from religion to start with. Heh, so the situation (like most things in life), is part of a holistic continuum: it's all related, it reciprocates, feeds...

Simply: for all the various reasons, most people are gradually moving away from older traditional organised religion in most countries. In response to that drift, these newer aspects of various religions have seen extremism as a good way to get the followers back in, because people get tired of tradition and prefer action, participation, and certainty. And in reaction to that craziness, other people turn to what they see as some kind of rational opposite instead; Atheism.

-That doesn't always mean they understand it any better, it's just better because it's not associated with the "weirdos"... which in turn harms the more ordinary manifestations of religion, because they are. (As always though, I'm only talking about it as a popular phenomenon, I'm NOT saying that's a reason for all people to be Atheists.)

StaceyMontgomery
stuff

You think people are atheists because religious people are dicks?

That really belittles atheists, you know.

ozoneocean
Yeah, I agree, that is one of the important aspects. I made a similar point in my first post on this thread. You've expanded on it a bit though.

But conversely, I think these crazy examples of charismatic Christianity have come about in response to people moving away from religion to start with. Heh, so the situation (like most things in life), is part of a holistic continuum: it's all related, it reciprocates, feeds...

At long last, I disagree.

99.999999% of Charismatic Christianity has absolutly nothing to do with the faithful or the lackthereof.

In the US, churches are not taxed. No property taxes, no income taxes, nadda. It is a time honored tradition for snake oil salesmen to get into religion for the same reason people rob banks: its where the money is.

That might be why some people get into "preaching", but what about the followers they attract? That's the thing. Besides, I'm talking about that trend globally in all religions.

I think I mostly agree with OzoneOcean here.

Look, as the world changes, some religious people change with it, and some dig in their heels and protest. Christians used to be totally against Usury. But Usury turned out to be a powerful force for economic growth, and now Christians everywhere practive Usury proudly. If someone like me brings it up, modern christians just say "well, we're against "excessive usuary..." In fact, I notice that dictionaries now define Usury with the word "excessive."

There are still lots of Islamic traditions that don't allow Usury of any kind. It makes it hard to get a mortgage, however. Those traditions are under pressure to make allowances for modern life and modernize. Eventually, they probably will.

In modern times there has been a growing acceptance of the reality of gay, lesbian, and transgendered lives. As these old bigotries start to die out, some faiths will dig in their heels and resist change, and some will adapt to the modern world.

I can tell you how this ends, btw - one group will fade into the dustbin of history, the other will remain a part of mainstream culture.

But for now, lots of Christians ARE digging in their heels. They want to vent their hatred of gay people and have anciuent myths taught as Science in the schools.

They will lose. After all, How many Christians do you know who refuse to get a car loan, or to accept interest on their savings?

And then, btw, the "modern christians" will give themselves all the credit for becoming modern. When was the last time you heard a Christian thanking atheists and secularists for the wonders of the modern world?

No, they're against it till they lose - then they were for it all the time.

StaceyMontgomery
And so yes - Atheism starts to look Kewl. But as an atheist, i can tell you, atheism isn*t really kewl. It's just a reaction against what is seen, increasingly, as the mindless ant-gay bigotry of the Fundamentalist Right in America.

I think this discussion is founded on a erroneous assupmtion. Atheism is not a philosphy, its a state of non adherence to any particular spiritual belief.

Its not a monolithic philosophy like a religion is, its the absence of such a thing.

You simply cannot point to a group of people and say they are all atheists so they are cool/not cool.

THat implies that its something to join up with. You don't sign Atheism like you do Scientology, Its just a description for someone who has neglected to sign up for anything.

bobhhh
I think this discussion is founded on a erroneous assupmtion. Atheism is not a philosphy

It is actually... Even if that's not how you see it. Well not a philosophy in itself but a philosophical outlook. It doesn't really matter actually, but yeah, people didn't just wake up one day and say "I dun beleeeve in de god nomore! I be a athieeest!" :)
Naw... This was a serious line of thought and intellectual inquiry- I tried to explain this in the original atheism thread, but no one seemed to get it: There was once a way of looking at the world that only involved gods and now there is another way that doesn't.

It's funny how both religious and non religious people like to point to one or other sate as being some kind of natural default though. Believe me, they both do it. lol!

bobhhh
You simply cannot point to a group of people and say they are all atheists so they are cool/not cool.

That's not what the thread's about, it's about impressionable people taking up ideas because of a cool factor, whether that ever actually happens or not.

Oh I get it now, it's not is atheism cool, its will atheism attract weakwilled trendy types because its the flavor of the moment!

I understand, carry on.

;)

I personally think that yes, some people choose to say there an athiest to seem cool bu tthat doesn't mean they truly have such a world view. It's rather difficult to stop believing simply because you choose to that there is not some supernatural big guy(s)/gal(s) simply because you want to.

Also don't think that because someone no longer believes in a god(s) that they also have a scientific and reasoned outlook. oooh no!

I know of at least one lady who trully thinks there is no afterlife or supernatural entity who created and rules the world....but she also considers there to be magic and psychics who can tell the future. I love this lady to death but those kinds of illogical thinking drive me nuts. but then I'm not going to point those out to her. I will calmly let her explain her beliefs her thoughts on any number of rather odd (to me) ideas and continue on with our conversation. some times she makes me go and look soemthing up (there are a LOT of magical thinking ideas out there) and some times i make her go and get a scientific paper to look something up.

the point is simple. she is a pretty moral person. not because she beleives there is some father/mother figure preparing to spank her when she does wrong...but instead she is moral because she thinks this is what she should be. on a higher note most of her actions are probably just environmental trained responses just like the rest of us. she follows the laws because she doesn't want to go to jail. she ignores the laws she doesn't agree with, but only when it doesn't harm others. I pretty much agree with this idea and go along with it.

My only personal headache with modern religion (besides the scientific and moral outlashing) is the sure ignorance. most modern christians (and i use christians because i'm less familiar with mormons and jews and other religions in the area, the christians just seem to point out there own ignorance loudly and often) tend to not know there own scripture. how many know it's against the rules to take interest or be loaned money? how many know that they can't have oral sex? (this is sodomy also people! it's any non 'standard' sex, there are even LAWS against this on the books! ugh horrible) how about the fact the bible constantly contradicts itself. like the creation story....which one do you believe? there are two of them in the bible. what about the fact that jesus never preached in a church and disdained organized religion and instead taught in the fields and in the streets? the list is endless. most have never even READ the dang thing >.

the list of reactionaryism is insane. this is somethign YOU don't like so WE are against it and here are the things we will suggest it leads to and so we can consider you evil.

ugg!

to anyone who lives in an alternative lifestyle (no i'm not one of the big four LGBT but me and my gf's do enjoy a different lifestyle thats also looked down on) it's a real pain to be shunned, hated, threatened, or be treated differently simply because of who you care about and a lot of modern religion does this and i think this is causing a huge push for atheism as 'cool'. when your being pushed around those who are also feeling shunned and disenfranchised (and what youth doesn't) wants to push back.

bobhhh
Oh I get it now, it's not is atheism cool, its will atheism attract weakwilled trendy types because its the flavor of the moment!

I understand, carry on.

;)

Wow, just like religion attracts weak-willed types who can't accept that maybe this is all there is :)

Heh, that's not a position Bob's advocating at all (just in case anyone thinks he is), that's just an interpretation of the subject of this thread, after reading my interpretation of it. -The subject, that is, not our opinions of it.

@mapaghimagsik
Wow, just like religion attracts weak-willed types...

True to an extent. But remember that in any religion, not all of them are dumb sheep accepting every single thing the leader says.

There are people who have been converted and who thought long and hard about joining a religion. There are intellectuals who adhere to a religion. Like this muslim co-worker of mine who has multiple degrees... and this priest who was a former chemical engineer.

I've also heard a few Catholics brag about the "fact" (they claim it... I dont have any proof of this) that its the intellectuals from other religions who convert to Catholicism.

the list is endless. most have never even READ the dang thing >.<

Ironically, its ATHEISTS who have read more of the bible than Christians. I guess I'm just one of the few Christians who were actually made to read the bible as part of school work.