I've been looking through french comics and I swear to god 1 out of 4 comics have included nude breasts or an erotic sex scene.

But these are not really adult comics. They don't even have sex as a focal point(or a porn comic) but just casually include it in the story. In fact the comic has a story, and a world full of characters just like most comics, they just don't use the 'cutaway black panel to indicate sex' or 'suspicious leaf covered his doo-dong' tactics.

So my question is:
Why do I not see this in webcomics? With all the freedom the internet has most webcomics seem to be split on adult content, with those containing absolutely no nudity and then those who focus entirely on sex. There's really no limitations on the net unlike published works who have to worry about getting a spot on bookshelfs after being flagged MA.

Is it a no-no to include nudity or sex scenes? If so why?

I wonder the same. But there seems to be a mentality saying that every sexy depiction in a non-erotic/porn comic is fanservice, and fanservice is also seen as negative by many.

Maybe I'll throw one big judgement, and I'm sorry for it. But maybe it's because many webcomic we see are american(the "states" american)? Not saying that americans are all prudes, but they do often take anything far or close to sex and throw it in a corner together, not wanting to mix it with something else. Or maybe it's just an impression.

To me sexuality is like any other topic, like music or food. It's not a big deal unless you make one of it.

demontales
Maybe I'll throw one big judgement, and I'm sorry for it. But maybe it's because many webcomic we see are american(the "states" american)? Not saying that americans are all prudes, but they do often take anything far or close to sex and throw it in a corner together, not wanting to mix it with something else. Or maybe it's just an impression.

I figure that's largely correct. Now to make broad unqualified statements I suspect that Americans in general tend to think of uncensored sex as being porn even when it isn't. Also, perhaps because we as a culture tend to have a lot of hang ups about sex we find it distracting when it's not the main focus.
As I understand the French their attitudes towards sex and nudity are a lot more relaxed, so I guess it would make sense that comics made by French people for French people be like that as well.

patrickdevine

demontales
Maybe I'll throw one big judgement, and I'm sorry for it. But maybe it's because many webcomic we see are american(the "states" american)? Not saying that americans are all prudes, but they do often take anything far or close to sex and throw it in a corner together, not wanting to mix it with something else. Or maybe it's just an impression.

I figure that's largely correct. Now to make broad unqualified statements I suspect that Americans in general tend to think of uncensored sex as being porn even when it isn't. Also, perhaps because we as a culture tend to have a lot of hang ups about sex we find it distracting when it's not the main focus.
As I understand the French their attitudes towards sex and nudity are a lot more relaxed, so I guess it would make sense that comics made by French people for French people be like that as well.

I agree with this too. I think a lot of European countries have a generally relaxed attitude toward sex then Americans. I noticed that quite quickly when I went to Paris; a lot of nudity in ads and people getting really (really!) intimate with each other on the streets to a level that would alarm people in America I think. And also, when my parents went to Germany to visit some family, they were shocked that there was porn on regular TV, and my little cousin (around 11) looked at it like it was nothing xD.

As for me, I have sex scenes in my comic, but no frontal nudity. They're there because they're part of the plot and not for entertainment and fan service. So far, I haven't had many problems with it, although I have had a person rail at me privately for degrading women because a couple of those scenes depict rape. ^^; If I feel it's pivotal to my story, I include it.

Nicotine
I have had a person rail at me privately for degrading women because a couple of those scenes depict rape. ^^; If I feel it's pivotal to my story, I include it.

That I understand. If you're too explicit it will come off like it's fetishy masturbation fodder, and most comics don't handle it well or even comprehend what they're dealing with.

Honestly rape is when I think the 'black cutaway' is best used. It's even more suspenseful and I don't have to have my eyes dragged into a lair of crappiness.

I have no issue with nudity if done right, sometimes gratuitous nudity is exactly right for the comic in question. As for showing rape... it's all about context.

In general the US is certainly more strait-laced than most European countries (even more so than we stiff upper-lipped Brits!). I suspect it's beginning to change though.

If you look at the amount of nudity and sex in recent TV shows (Boardwalk Empire, Game of Thrones, Spartacus, True Blood), it's clear that the likes of HBO are finally breaking the stranglehold that the established networks used to have on mainstream TV and their conservatism/prudery is very rapidly being made to look kind of quaint and old-fashioned.

I guess the next barrier to fall will be the certification of movies. As people become more used to seeing nudity on TV, they'll be less likely to throw their hands up in horror every time a movie is rated NC-17.

Comics will take longer. Despite all the examples to the contrary, in the US and the UK comics are still regarded first and foremost as escapist entertainment aimed primarily at kids. I fear it'll be some time before those prejudices are eroded and - as long as they exist - most US webcomic creators will continue to grow up with (and therefore emulate) the self-imposed restrictions they see everyday on the bookshelves.

Nicotine
I have had a person rail at me privately for degrading women because a couple of those scenes depict rape. ^^;

*sigh* Sadly there are morons everywhere, even one or two among webcomic readers!

Nicotine
I think a lot of European countries have a generally relaxed attitude toward sex then Americans. I noticed that quite quickly when I went to Paris; a lot of nudity in ads and people getting really (really!) intimate with each other on the streets to a level that would alarm people in America I think. And also, when my parents went to Germany to visit some family, they were shocked that there was porn on regular TV, and my little cousin (around 11) looked at it like it was nothing xD.

Being German myself, I feel I should clear up some misconceptions: Porn definitely isn't regarded as normal in any European country, and any responsible parent wouldn't let their child watch it. As far as I'm informed, softcore porn is allowed on German TV after 10pm (and hardcore isn't allowed at all) - that's because children are expected to be in bed by then! But ultimately, it's the parents' responsibility to see to it that their children don't watch it. It's true that nudity and even implied sex is allowed on TV, but that isn't porn. It's always irked me that in the US, the threshold for calling something porn is really low!

Other than that, I agree with most of what's been said here before - if it's pivotal for the story, then there's nothing wrong with depicting it. Also, European webcomics are more likely to be influenced by European print comics - but when was the last time you've read a European webcomic? In fact, I guess both DAJB and myself are more influenced by US comics than European ones. (Of course it's hard to say whether Alan Moore was "really" making European or US comics - but he certainly didn't make comics in the vein of the "open-minded" French comics mentioned above. For instance, if you look at his "sex comic" Lost Girls, it's very different from the open-mindedness we're getting at here, even though it's been called porn many times.)

Skullbie
So my question is:Why do I not see this in webcomics? With all the freedom the internet has most webcomics seem to be split on adult content, with those containing absolutely no nudity and then those who focus entirely on sex. There's really no limitations on the net unlike published works who have to worry about getting a spot on bookshelfs after being flagged MA.

Is it a no-no to include nudity or sex scenes? If so why?

Those were my thoughts when I first started Pinky TA, but I eventually learned that I was wrong: there are limitations even with webcomics.

Drunk Duck is a good example of that- When I first started posting my comic here I was all for just showing whatever I felt like, because that's life. I didn't intend swearing, nudity or sex to titillate the audience, just to be a full and open depiction of what my characters did...
And then they introduced mandatory ratings. So in order to avoid restrictions and limiting my potential audience I had to change the tone of things and pull back on showing a LOT of stuff. (I should STILL go back and clean up a lot of earlier pages).

But it's not just ratings on DD, it also affected what sorts of sites I could advertise Pinky TA on using PW, and even with toned down content quite a few people refused my ads, even ones that didn't show anything sexy (like this and this ), just because of the perception about the content of my comic.
And of course it affects what sorts of ads you can have on your own comic, not just PW people, but other services.

And then there's the wider world- the more extreme your comic is the more it can narrows opportunities for you. You can't as easily show it to employers, clients, workmates, family etc.
I've been able to use my comic to help me get some great jobs and some decent advertising money. I'd never have been able to do that if I'd have continued on my original path.
-I did get some decent money from doing a porn comic because someone was impressed with my earlier work, but that was more of a short term thing.

Actually a number of professional artists got their break doing porn comics. There will always be a market for porn but the line (that which makes porn)often confuses people.

My comic dead sexy (if I ever get back to it) is about porn and will feature aspects of porn but is not strictly a porn comic.

As for other comics, well sex and nudity have been limited.

With an upcoming story in Lite bites some material was probably fine for mature but had elements I was concerned might offend some people. I asked ozone and he suggested rate it adult to be safe, since we have compromised and put a disclaimer on it. Hopefully it won't get any complaints, I don't see a problem with it myself but you never know. The comic in question goes live in june so I'm afraid you can go and check right now. Would have made a great plug though.


@ozone, in one of those that's a nice. ass

I agree with pretty much everything written above about the States' attitude toward showing nudity and sex. And yes, HBO and Showtime are successful pioneers in expanding the limits.

What's more than ironic is that we here seem to have no trouble showing graphic violence, even on TV, even before 10 PM. Blood can gurgle out mouths and eyeballs, machine gun bullets can riddle a baby carriage, entire city blocks can be consumed in explosive fire --- That's OK.

And as far as morals: I'm not the only one who loves DEXTER, WEEDS, and BREAKING BAD --- breaking the rules is OK too if "you do it for a good reason".

So the stance on nudity and sex? I don't get it. I don't know how depicting naked bodies in consenting acts could in anyway be more harmful than the depiction of violence and organized crime that's so easy to find here.

The rape question. Rape is an act of violence that involves a sex act -- so the whole "it's not about sex" is not quite accurate. But the violence and the sex, from what I've read, are almost secondary in brutality compared to the after effects that the victim/survivor has to cope with --- and that part frequently gets short shrift in many stories. imo, if a rape is part of a story line, it should be treated with the same gravity as a murder. You don't necessarily black it out, but I think it generally should merit more than the equivalent of a PG-13 rating.

I'm not going to reflect on ratings or culture, but I would like to give a brief two cents on story telling in general. "Swearing and nudity are part of life." Huh? Well that is true to some extent. I personally never see nudity in life myself ( as long as I hang a towel on the bathroom door to cover the mirror.) But that's not what we're talking about. Using the toilet, doing your taxes, flossing, and buying socks are part of life too. The question is are they part of your story? If so, then include them. If not, why add it?

I write things inspired by things I like to watch, mostly PG-13 (which is likely the rating of my real life too XD ). I don't censor myself, but I don't *have to.* People in my stories don't run around naked. Only certain characters swear. Intimate moments are either not part of the main story, or if they are, it isn't presented in graphic detail but rather in subtlety, because otherwise my story mood and intent would be diverted. It runs like movies and shows I like. If it is called for, I do have to get creative sometimes to maintain my established "rating" (or mood/purpose) without losing any realism. For example, one character (actually a normally reserved dresser) gives up her shirt in an emergency to bandage a wounded woman. I had to use creative 'camera angles' to avoid showing frontal nudity or the nasty wound (both severely inappropriate and distracting for the mood of the scene), and in the next scene, one of the shirtless woman's friends tosses her his jacket, which fits his character, her character, story mood, and my personal comfort level.

usedbooks
Using the toilet, doing your taxes, flossing, and buying socks are part of life too. The question is are they part of your story? If so, then include them. If not, why add it?

I think we all would if we didn't feel there was a problem with what we felt was appropriate for the audience.
It's a shame to feel constrained in creation, that one feels one has to omit certain things, but that's the price you pay for wider acceptance.

I've actually come to enjoy the dance- pulling back at the last second, hiding the impact of violence off panel etc, it's rather fun to work within self imposed limits. Amelius of Charby the Vampirate mentioned in our interview with her and Nick that they love coming up with creative alternative swearwords.

But with all those examples, I'd certainly be fine with showing them in my comic and they'd all fit within my story pretty well :)

ozoneocean

usedbooks
Using the toilet, doing your taxes, flossing, and buying socks are part of life too. The question is are they part of your story? If so, then include them. If not, why add it?

But with all those examples, I'd certainly be fine with showing them in my comic and they'd all fit within my story pretty well :)

Same here. But apart from that, I'd rather see some nudity than someone buying socks, and I'm not ashamed to say so. The other thing is that whether someone is or is not having sex, and who they are having sex with, is often part of their personality and says something about them. Buying socks? Sometimes, but not so much.

On a related note, you see sex scenes in the media much more often than masturbation, even though masturbation certainly happens more often in real life :D (For instance, the Luna Brothers' "Girls" opens with a(n implied) masturbation scene to great effect.) So, judging from this, I don't think that showing sex is just a matter of showing something that's an integral part of life. Pride (and a sense of what's a taboo) figures into it too - assuming there is some sort of identfication with their work, showing sex often hurts the writer's/artist's pride less than showing masturbation. (Plus, audiences seem to go "ewwww" more often when confronted with masturbation than with sex scenes, and they're more likely to feel bad about it.)

I'm in the same boat as Ozone pretty much. But with less focus on using it for getting work. But for a lot of the same reasons.

I constantly keep watering down my work so hopefully a slightly larger audience can view it. When I started I too had the intentions of putting in a LOT of swearing, nudity, and very graphic violence. Though one can argue I still have very graphic violence XD But not near as often and not just for the sake of having it anymore.

Ah, but that's not my point. I wasn't asking if you'd be comfortable including those things or if they bother the audience. I was asking about relevance. Not necessarily for plot points but for mood, pacing, atmosphere. You can include any and all if it adds something, but what kind of story are you writing? Unless there is a reason for it, I'm not going to show every detail of a character's morning routine. (Again, I might, if for mood or pacing.) Some stories take place only in an office, for example. You might never see Mr. Whoever at home, or see his wife. They might have passionate sex every night. But it won't necessarily be in the story. He might simply talk about it.

Good story tellers know what to include and NOT include for their stories, not as a matter of censorship but one of basic plotting and pacing technique.

Abt_Nihil
On a related note, you see sex scenes in the media much more often than masturbation, even though masturbation certainly happens more often in real life

I dunno about comics, I just don't read enough of them, but in film off the top of my head: Ken Park, Leolo, Tie me up Tie me down. All art-house though, so it's not the usual run off the mill thing.
I think the reason masturbation is shown less is because stories are mostly about interaction with other characters and things that move the plot forward, advancing the story... Masturbation gets away from that. Whereas a sex scene can be the culmination of a growing interaction between two characters and a stepping stone for more and bigger stuff, the options with masturbation are more limited (like the act, haha), it's more an end in itself... Just lending colour to the character mainly? Or for comedy purposes? :)

usedbooks
Ah, but that's not my point. I wasn't asking if you'd be comfortable including those things or if they bother the audience. I was asking about relevance. Not necessarily for plot points but for mood, pacing, atmosphere.

Yeah, that's what I meant but I was also addressing the ADDED issues associated with including sex, violence and swearing- With those it's not JUST about mood, pacing and storytelling, there are other considerations.

usedbooks
Good story tellers know what to include and NOT include for their stories, not as a matter of censorship but one of basic plotting and pacing technique.

I feel that your true point here is that by avoiding nudity, swearing, violence or sex it makes one a better storyteller?
I don't think that's the case at all.

I'll be blunt: I suspect that one of the reasons you avoid sex or graphic nudity in your comics is that you're not quite comfortable with it.
I hope I don't cause offence, but what you're saying sounds more like a defence than a solid reasoning. (and that's fair enough, I do the same sort of thing all the time :))

I think each artist is responsible for the world they create, and therefore needs to have a certain comfort level with what they create. For some, there's a discomfort with what they include, and for others it's what is omitted. The choice should be the creator's, tho, and not a rather arbitrary standard that is imposed on him/her.

@usedbooks: I believe you mentioned that random nudity doesn't play a large part in your daily existence. Me, too.

But then --- I doubt how much organized crime plays a part in your daily existence.

But it doesn't matter because that is an integral part of the world you created - and you get to play God the way you want to.

There are rather two points to consider:

does a character ( and I think character more than plot because I like character-driven plots the most) become more alive to the reader/observer if we know his/her attitude toward sex, whether conservative, "normal" (which brings in the cultural mores), or rather laissez faire? a prude, male or female, can be just as interesting as a counterpart slut, depending on the telling.

how detailed/graphic does this depiction need to be to get the message across without conflicting with other story components?

my earlier post was that I think there's an absurdity that, at least here in the States, the general consensus draws a quicker line in the sand for nudity/sex than it does for violence. I think if individual artists want to challenge that, they should

Really like your posts on this Ayesinback. :)

I made this thread because I was debating on weather or not to include nudity in a comic I'm making. On one hand it would only appear in like 5 panels and could be taken out with zero consequence to the story, but on the other I want to challenge the "norm" of webcomics and break free of this certain stigma around it. I am still hesitant though...precisely because of this stigma.

As far as sex being in daily life it could certainly be there for period pieces taking place in ancient rome or even made up fantasy worlds.

I also thought of something: A lot of webcomics have teenage protagonists and the creators are possibly teenagers themselves. Through my weekly "It came from SMACKJEEEVES" visits I've learned a lot of them barely know how to handle romance. So maybe it's a good thing?

ayesinback
my earlier post was that I think there's an absurdity that, at least here in the States, the general consensus draws a quicker line in the sand for nudity/sex than it does for violence. I think if individual artists want to challenge that, they should

That's fair enough, but no one works in a void- you do have to consider people's reaction to your work, how the content can limit where it can be displayed and who can see it etc.

usedbooks
Good story tellers know what to include and NOT include for their stories, not as a matter of censorship but one of basic plotting and pacing technique.

I feel that your true point here is that by avoiding nudity, swearing, violence or sex it makes one a better storyteller?
I don't think that's the case at all.

I'll be blunt: I suspect that one of the reasons you avoid sex or graphic nudity in your comics is that you're not quite comfortable with it.
I hope I don't cause offence, but what you're saying sounds more like a defence than a solid reasoning. (and that's fair enough, I do the same sort of thing all the time :))

Nope. That's not my point. I have nothing negative whatsoever to say about people who include nudity, sex, graphic violence, obscenities, or whatever in their work. I was simply making the point that not including those things is not necessarily a choice based on censorship. If inclusion or exclusion of something (whether it is a sex scene or replacing a burned out lightbulb) strengthens your work and fits your purpose, then I think, from the standpoint of a writer/artist it should be excluded/included as you see fit. If it weakens the work or is just for the hell of it, it shouldn't be done. (Well, for the hell of it can be a purpose too, but it should ideally bring something to the webcomic and not detract.)

This is, of course,an idealized veiwpoint. Certainly all these other factors play into decision making too. I just wanted to raise the point that just because something is part of life, it doesn't necessarily belong in every story. And not all people are consciously removing nudity or sex or violence. Nor are people choosing necessarily to add such scenes just for kicks. (They ARE part of some stories.) I understand there are all those other issues to consider if those topics and scenes DO fit your story and your techniques. They aren't part of mine. But I did have to figure out what to do on the rare occasion that they WERE (because to show such scenes graphically would disrupt the mood -- and, as was mentioned, an established rating. Plus my artistic abilities are lacking. ^^; )

This is kinda why I steer clear of most discussions on the internet. I don't really debate or have a side, but people always assume I'm talking about myself or my own work and then MAKE me do so. :P I'm not arguing any side for or against anything, just trying to add a point to discussion. I hardly consider myself a "webcomic artist" and usually talk either hypothetically or observationally as a reader/philosopher.

Lots of interesting points made and things to consider. Hey ozone, maybe this could be addressed in a quackcast! xD

Skullbie
That I understand. If you're too explicit it will come off like it's fetishy masturbation fodder, and most comics don't handle it well or even comprehend what they're dealing with.

I can see how someone could be turned off by it if it's too explicit, but I think if you're mature in handling it showing the brutality of the event wouldn't be incomprehensible to me if it's nessisary to tell something about the story.

Skullbie
Honestly rape is when I think the 'black cutaway' is best used. It's even more suspenseful and I don't have to have my eyes dragged into a lair of crappiness.

I don't know if I completely agree with that; like I said before, something important may be happening during the event so showing it might be nessisary for the story. I mean, I think a person should know the limits, but I don't think such a scene should be deleted entirely.

DAJB

Nicotine
I have had a person rail at me privately for degrading women because a couple of those scenes depict rape. ^^;

*sigh* Sadly there are morons everywhere, even one or two among webcomic readers!

I suppose. The person also took issue with my homosexual character. But nothing was stated about the scenes in my comic showing people violently being killed. xD I suppose that's the funny thing about America like others mentioned; we have no qualms about graphic violence, but once a bare female chest is shown all hell breaks loose.

Abt_Nihil
Being German myself, I feel I should clear up some misconceptions: Porn definitely isn't regarded as normal in any European country, and any responsible parent wouldn't let their child watch it. As far as I'm informed, softcore porn is allowed on German TV after 10pm (and hardcore isn't allowed at all) - that's because children are expected to be in bed by then! But ultimately, it's the parents' responsibility to see to it that their children don't watch it. It's true that nudity and even implied sex is allowed on TV, but that isn't porn. It's always irked me that in the US, the threshold for calling something porn is really low!

Haha, yes, I understand that. My parents probably saw a show with nudity or a sex scene, assumed it was porn, and were shocked xD. The threshold is frighteningly low, which bothers me sometimes. I personally don't see why people are irked by naked people, like it's unnatural or something; I don't feel it's something to be ashamed of. Still, I strategically hide complete nudity in my comic out of respect for the audience mostly. Though I do understand how having it all over the place at all times can cheapen a story, so I agree it should only be shown if it's important in some way.

ozoneocean
And then there's the wider world- the more extreme your comic is the more it can narrows opportunities for you. You can't as easily show it to employers, clients, workmates, family etc.

This is a good point; I would never put my comic on my resume or show it to work buddies, that's for sure!

ayesinback
What's more than ironic is that we here seem to have no trouble showing graphic violence, even on TV, even before 10 PM. Blood can gurgle out mouths and eyeballs, machine gun bullets can riddle a baby carriage, entire city blocks can be consumed in explosive fire --- That's OK.

Very true. I don't know, I think Americans are just enamored with violence for some reason. I mean, look at our national anthem, there's killing and bombs in there too!

ayesinback
The rape question. Rape is an act of violence that involves a sex act -- so the whole "it's not about sex" is not quite accurate. But the violence and the sex, from what I've read, are almost secondary in brutality compared to the after effects that the victim/survivor has to cope with --- and that part frequently gets short shrift in many stories. imo, if a rape is part of a story line, it should be treated with the same gravity as a murder. You don't necessarily black it out, but I think it generally should merit more than the equivalent of a PG-13 rating.

Nice statements! I thought a lot about including it in my comic, but went ahead because the way the character who is abused reacts to the events rules a large part of the plot later. I felt it was important to show the readers the magnitude of the abuse (not all of it, just glimpses) because it explains the character's extreme actions later.

ayesinback
does a character ( and I think character more than plot because I like character-driven plots the most) become more alive to the reader/observer if we know his/her attitude toward sex, whether conservative, "normal" (which brings in the cultural mores), or rather laissez faire? a prude, male or female, can be just as interesting as a counterpart slut, depending on the telling.

how detailed/graphic does this depiction need to be to get the message across without conflicting with other story components?

Couldn't have presented this better; this is my exact thought process when it comes to including/not including certain scenes. :D

The Rose Killer is also more detective anyway so it can get away with rape themes easier with the general audience. Think of all the Law and Order and other detective work shows where rape victims are involved. Just started watching Bones and it had a murdering child rapist in the 1st season.

These shows never glamorize rape and never even make you feel the rapist is a human being at all. I think that's probably the safest acceptable way to use it in a more mainstream story. When I was younger I was going to have it in my comic. But now I won't. The new directions my story formula has directed won't allow it now anyway.

I can't take comic violence too seriously. I grew up playing Mortal Kombat so I like to go overboard sometimes. But I think style makes a difference as well. My style is more cartoon like than super detailed and realistic. So violence doesn't seem as obscene in my works to me as violence in some other really detailed works.

I guess it's kind of like how stick figure comics can be the most violent things there are. The more you exaggerate the less it seems to be a big deal.

@Skullbie: I think I'd look at it like this. Do you have any idea how long your comic will be? And is it out of place?

If it's a short story then I would just add it in. If it's a LONG series of stories I would think of what all boundaries you will make. Is this the peak of how "far" you will go? Later one you can look back and say that maybe you can go a little further...

I know my cap on nudity and violence. Knowing your cap helps you get a feel of what you should and shouldn't put into the work. If a naked character popped into Used Books all of a sudden it'd be really strange XD

This kinda goes back to the other topic about writing for yourself or for your audience I suppose though.

Nicotine
Lots of interesting points made and things to consider. Hey ozone, maybe this could be addressed in a quackcast! xD

Yeah it would :V And i'm kind of curious for an example of what could be so important to show during a rape scene? The only thing that came to mind was "hero rescues him/her".

Nudity is hard to do with Playmobil toys, so that limits me somewhat. ;-)

I suspect sprite comics have similar issues, and since they make up a large proportion of webcomics ... ?

The French media uses sex so much it's hilarious. Anyone ever see that furry juice ad? It's bright and hypnotic and ohgodwhyisthishappening all at once.

So, I have mixed feelings on this. The only print comic that I've read that I felt handled sex tastefully was Blackslad... but I don't think you can actually find anything wrong with that series, it's pretty great. Maybe I'm just a product of American culture, but I've always found sex (more so than nudity and violence) to be a cop out to grab attention. HBO and Showtime and those channels have been pushing the envelope for years and since most of the time you have to buy a REALLY expensive tv package to get those channels, you can't help but think they push the more R-rate or Unrated material to get people to purchase them. And, you know, that's cool. I really enjoy The Sopranos, but I do find myself getting really uncomfortable when there's random ugly old people sex and someone getting his teeth kicked out. I think MOST people get uncomfortable, but that's why people liked shows like Fear Factor or that Teen Mom show; it's so awful and captivating you keep tuning in because you've become addicted to the shock.

Did that make any sense? Probably not! : D

Either way, with webcomics, I really haven't found a comic that's not /ABOUT/ sex that has pulled off random sex in a tasteful way. Nudity and "almost" sex are different, but like, I always feel like the author is bored and horny and just throws that in for shits and giggles, not to mention they usually don't know anatomy well enough to draw people without their clothes on in the first place! Maybe my standards are high; I'm a fine arts major and I spend half of my week staring at naked people posing with bowls of fruit during studio time (and trust me, I have had some TERRIBLE angles of models scared into my mind forever) so maybe my idea of "tasteful" is too classic. I just often find myself a little put off of comics that are marketed as something else and then "Oh Boy Random Underaged Sex!" time happens. I think you should have an idea of what you're doing before you start the comic and stick to it. For example, a friend of mine who reads shoujo-ai comics is always complaining to me about how she starts following these cutesy chibi comics with lots of giggling and blushing and 5 chapters in they turn into really graphic, somewhat deranged porn for 50 pages, then go back to cutesy little girls being afraid to hold hands. When an author changes the plot that drastically I take it as a sign that they don't know what they're doing... and it kind of cheapens whatever good stuff may have been in there in the first place.

So I guess I don't really have an stance on this. I think the French are a little TOO desensitized to sex, I think that any kind of mature material can be pulled off well, but I find that most adults (the ones who are usually mature enough to pull these things off tastefully) either go all out and do a porn comic, or restrict everything to a T level, whereas younger, less-capable authors tend to try and frankenstein a PG 13 plot with R rate violence, sex, and random bewbage (or on Smackjeeves, random yaoisexytimes)

But you know, I'm a busy person (this is my day off and I can type a massive forum post shut uppppp) and I don't usually get to read new webcomics very often. I base a lot of these opinions on comics I read a few years ago and have revisited, maybe there's been a lot of improvement in the inclusion of nudity and sex since then. And, you know, I really don't have the right to talk about this anyway. Have you seen the first page of my comic? Lol.

JustNoPoint
@Skullbie: I think I'd look at it like this. Do you have any idea how long your comic will be? And is it out of place?

If it's a short story then I would just add it in. If it's a LONG series of stories I would think of what all boundaries you will make. Is this the peak of how "far" you will go? Later one you can look back and say that maybe you can go a little further...

I know my cap on nudity and violence. Knowing your cap helps you get a feel of what you should and shouldn't put into the work. If a naked character popped into Used Books all of a sudden it'd be really strange XD

This kinda goes back to the other topic about writing for yourself or for your audience I suppose though.

It's a short 60 page comic, though I think you lost me there a bit with the longer running series bit. :0 How is including it in a short story different than a long running one? (this isn't antagonistic i'm honestly wondering the difference)

JustNoPoint
The Rose Killer is also more detective anyway so it can get away with rape themes easier with the general audience. Think of all the Law and Order and other detective work shows where rape victims are involved. Just started watching Bones and it had a murdering child rapist in the 1st season.

I suppose so, maybe also because there are many other acts of violence going on.

Skullbie
And i'm kind of curious for an example of what could be so important to show during a rape scene? The only thing that came to mind was "hero rescues him/her".

I think there could be a variety of things, including a rescue. There could be an important exchange during the incident, or a way one or both of the characters react. Maybe I was thinking too much about my story, but the movie "Lust, Caution" [en.wikipedia.org] comes to mind. There are a lot of sexual scenes in it between the two main characters, but there is a rape scene that is very pivotal to the story because of the way the characters react during it. It's hard to explain, but I think a rape scene can tell a lot if you're revealing something about the story or the characters involved in it.

I only include it if its absolutely necessary. But then again, marketing purposes is something different.

Heh... I remember getting an angry comment cuz the sucker expected my comic to be hentai xxx cuz of the project wonderful ads Ive used. Oh well... lol!

Skullbie
It's a short 60 page comic, though I think you lost me there a bit with the longer running series bit. :0 How is including it in a short story different than a long running one? (this isn't antagonistic i'm honestly wondering the difference)

This might be just my way of thinking so grain of salt mode activate...

In a short story you don't have to really worry about how something like that may be taken IMO because 1 page of nudity out of 60 wouldn't seem as out of place. There are not enough pages for the audience to think it is too out there for the rest of the story. It'll have a larger impact on the overall feel.

In a longer story if you go a long time and then throw in nudity it seems jarring and out of place. Or if you add nudity early on in a long story you may as well not worry about doing it again later if it comes up because the audience is sort of prepared.

To try to sum this up a tad and clarify (hopefully)

Short story = Audience will get what they are handed. By the time it gets pretty far along for them to get the feel of the comic's nature it will be getting nearer to the end.

Longer story = The audience gets to make their judgement on the feel and nature of the comic and will become accustomed to that. Adding nudity early on sets a perceived cap with the audience. Add it really far into something that seems like it wouldn't have nudity and you jump the shark a bit with the audience.


This might just make sense to me. I hope I am explaining what I mean though well ^_^;

EDIT: I might think of a short story like a movie and a longer story like an ongoing series.

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When Nicotine mentioned important things during a rape scene I figured she meant something that later the audience would know as evidence for the detective to find. A certain injury during the struggle. A mouse grabbing a wrapper from the assailant. Something like that.