I"M agnostic leaning twords athiesm. I won't say anything's impossible (going by the old rules of logic that you con't prove a negative) But I am of the oppinion that the existance of dieties is unlikley enough that I might as well consider myself athiest.

OK, I think I should bring in a few points that I haven't seen yet.

1) What makes living things? Cells. What makes cells? Organels (I'm not sure if that how you spell it, but, whatever). What makes organels? Molecules. What makes molecules? Atoms. What makes atoms? Protons, neutrons, and electrons. Well, what makes those? etc. Everything keeps getting smaller and smaller. Some of the greatest scientists in the world have strong beliefs in God because they believe that it all has to come from somewhere.

2) I believe there was once a religious group of people called Deists. These people refered to God as the "architect of the world." Basically, they believed that God created the world, but didn't watch over it. If that's true, then the whole "God not answering prayers" thing makes sense.

3) In order for there to be a God, he would have to exist outside of time. He would have to be everlasting, he would have to of always existed. Perhaps he was created and sent back in time, like a time loop? Maybe he completely defies all the logic of this world. In the end, it all comes down to what you believe. There are many, many religions out there. Perhaps the same God is worshipped by all of these religions? Christians, Jews, Muslims (yes, muslims. Al Quaeda preaches a false form of Islam, even the other muslims hate Al Quaeda)... those are the three major religions, but there are alot more. Yes, all religions have corruption, but is that the fault people or the fault of God? Personally, I believe that it's the people's fault.

4) This may not as relevant as other details, but Jesus is acknowledged in many secular texts as a historical figure. The real question is if he really was the Messiah. I believe that he said once that the Christians would suffer in his name, and, as we all know, that has happened many times. Lucky guess? Prophecy? Logic? Who knows?

5) All religions have more or less the same rule. This is just the Christian way of saying it, but there are other ways, "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." Basically, religion is a reason for morality. We all know right from wrong. We all know what will hurt other people. Religion gives people who don't understand why to be good a reason to be good. I'm not saying that Atheists are lacking in morals, just that the purpose of religion is morality. Maybe there's a God, maybe there isn't. But the goal of religion is morality.

But the goal of religion is morality.

Surely you know that many, so many people, have died thru the years, all in the name of religion and god.

VegaX
Surely you know that many, so many people, have died thru the years, all in the name of religion and god.

Yes, but, as I mentioned before, is that God's fault or the people's?

Oh, and I'm sorry, it seems that the Deist thing has already come into this discussion. (I didn't fully read all the posts before I posted. Sorry)

Mr. Neil
That kind of scares me, honestly.

Exactly. The whole concept of a God was concieved for two reasons.
1) To explain what was, at the time, unexplainable.
2) To make morality easy to grasp.

Of course, some people behave because of fear of Hell, but not everyone is going to be moral simply because the bible says so. Too many psychos out there.

There are people who take the bible seriously. But obviously there are parts of the bible that are not meant to be taken literally. Like Adam and Eve. Curiously though, there are quite a few mythologies that have a story about a flood.

Like I stated before, it all comes down to what you believe. I remember one thing my religion teacher used to say (he was rather opinionated) "Marriage is sacred. Seven out of ten marriages fail. Why? I don't know. Maybe it's because people don't see it as sacred anymore." Yeah, he was wierd. He also said that you need some kind of spirituality.

So, now we're faced with the question: Is God truly real, or was he made up to provide comfort and purpose? (yes, comfort. I really don't get why atheists don't want to look forward to an afterlife.) You might say that science is going to bring the answer. I don't believe that. Science will never explain everything. Think about it. If you knew everything, you'd know how to bend things to your will. Even if science brought all the answers, we'd inevitably destroy ourselves with it. Arrogance will be the downfall of our race.

I also remember that someone suggested that God abandoned us. Maybe. I mean, human nature is basically this: Look out for number one. Maybe we were so much of a dissapointment that he turned is attention somewhere else.

What I don't get is why people have to challenge eachother over this subject. Believe what you want. For all we know, none of us could be right!

4 pages and you haven't all agreed as to whether God exists?

Geez, how long could it take? :wink:

I'm trying to keep this as concise as I can since I have a tendencey to just go on and on. ^^;;;;;

I have never felt the need to demand that God give some sort of benefit in order to prove His existance. The fact that He never answered my prayers (actually He may have...but that's a totally different story) or met my wishes never made Him exist any less to me. If God exists and He's the same divine being that I'm thinking of here, then He already gave me enough to work with. I have relatively good health, loving family and friends, a roof over my head, and opportunities. I'm also alive, I exist, and I have choices that other people may not have.

While I do believe in God, I don't think He enters my mind on a daily basis a lot. I do good things because I want to and not because I'm craning my head towards the sky and hoping He's watching.

My religion teacher used to say that it doesn't matter which side of the hill you're coming from so long as you're not circling at the bottom. Maybe when I get to the top, it's not going to be what I expected but I think I'm okay with that. I don't think it's something I can really change. For me believing in God isn't about avoiding responsibility, betting the safe bet, or answering impossible questions with even more impossible ones. It's just what I want to do and it's the side of the hill I want to climb.

When I die, as every living thing is bound to do, I might finally see what's at the top (if anything.) I could be wrong but I could be right. However, since I'm in no hurry to die, I'm pretty content with believing in God and leaving it at that.

On another note, I'm not too frighten by the concept that some people behave themselves because they're worried they'll go to hell. For a lot of people out there, the only reason why they're not committing crimes is because there are laws against it and authority figures (police officers, judges, etc) who will punish them if they break those laws.

If anything, I would be more frightened of those people then the ones who are afraid of hell. People who are only restrained by law will commit crimes if they think the structure of law and order has broken down or that they're out of its reach.

But for people who believe in divine retribution, they know they're never out of reach of God, hell, or the devil. There's not a single place in this universe you can hide from a divine being and death is inescapable no matter where you are. You can run from a police officer but not God or death.

.: Black Kitty :.

Mr. Neil
Is that really what you think an atheist is?

Of course not. ^^;;; I wasn't even thinking about atheists or atheism when I made that comment.

But not doing things for fear of retribution isn't exclusively a religious thing either.

.: Black Kitty :.

Just because I'm not like Thomas Aquinas when it comes to my beliefs doesn't mean that I treat it like a coin toss.

Whether God would be pissed off or not would be a matter of personal opinion and what you believe God really wants from humanity.

Mr. Neil: I saw your edited post just now. ^^ Missed it earlier.

But I honestly do believe that there are individuals out there who really would go on a crime spree should law and order ever dissolve. I equally believe that there would be individuals who would rise up to the challenge (so to speak) in the same situation. Hurricane Katrina and New Orleans demonstrated both sides of that to some degree. You had people who were looting and harming others but you also had people who refused to leave so they could help or opened their homes to those who lost theirs.

I don't think it's a religious issue though. I'm pretty sure a religious person could reason their way out of anything if they feel really compelled to. It's happening now with the suicide bombers and such.

.: Black Kitty :.

Kennedy0

I don't think it's a religious issue though. I'm pretty sure a religious person could reason their way out of anything if they feel really compelled to.

They call them catholics.

Har har. :) *is a Catholic herself*

I've always wondered whether what I believe is self-justification or what I really believe. Mind you, I'm usually referring to Sunday mass and not whether I should blow myself up in a bus full of people or not.

.: Black Kitty :.

Black Kitty
If God exists and He's the same divine being that I'm thinking of here, then He already gave me enough to work with.
I have relatively good health, loving family and friends, a roof over my head, and opportunities.

So what about kids that are BORN with a disability? They are born into sitting in a whellchair for the rest of their life, some of them can't even breath for themselfs.

Does god hate them from birth or something? Or is it another one of those "tests" that god seems so glad to give out? :roll:

equinox
I have found a serious bit of evidence against the possibility of a god.t

Current sprite comic count - "3,490"

where is your god now??? :shock:

Before I say anything, I'm just going to state the following disclaimer: Whatever I say isn't canon or a representation of all Christians in the world. I'm 22 years old, I don't have the universe figured out (I did though when I was 16. :P)

Life sucks, it doesn't suck equally for everyone, and sometimes it sucks for people who don't even deserve it. Of course, this sounds totally insensitive since I'm not the one stuck in a wheelchair or having a machine help me breathe. It's also pretty unsatisfying.

But as long as I'm going to sound a bit like a prick and being totally unsatisfying...does suffering really mean God doesn't exist? Does God (if He really exists) owe everyone a certain level of quality in their lives? Does God owe anyone anything?

Current sprite comic count - "3,490"

where is your god now??? :shock:

God is clearly telling all of you to update your comics. For every update a webcomic misses, a sprite comic is born.

There is pixal blood on your hands. :evil:

.: Black Kitty :.

I had an interesting idea about that time thing that was mentioned a while back. What if God existed in an alternative 4th Dimension? One that replaced time with something else that we can't comprehend?

I also had another little idea. As I stated before, Jesus is recognized in non-religious texts as a historical figure. So, there are only two logical conclusions to this:

A) Jesus is a divine being beyond any human comprehension.

B) Jesus was an amazingly good con artist who was capable of misleading thousands of people. Then, he willingly died and started the religion which is now the most popular religion in the world.

Also, as I said before, who knows? Maybe none of us could be right! What if the universe is run by a council of monkeys who created the world for the sole purpose of justifying the creation of the banana? Actually, I think I might start a new religion based upon that idea.

VegaX
So what about kids that are BORN with a disability? They are born into sitting in a whellchair for the rest of their life, some of them can't even breath for themselfs.

Do have any idea how much attention those kids get? I mean, other kids who aren't disabled don't get nearly as much attention.

LIZARD_B1TE
Do have any idea how much attention those kids get? I mean, other kids who aren't disabled don't get nearly as much attention.

So your saying those kids are in fact blessed? Oh happy day. :lol:
Im sure they feel the same way everytime they have to go to the toilet and can't evan do that themselfs.

God is good, as long as your healthy and rich. :wink:

Kennedy0
It may not prove that he doesn't exist, but it certainly does help in the argument. We're talking about an invisible man that no one has ever caught on record, here. No one can really prove either side since the premise is so damn rediculous.

And yes, if god created man, is as powerful as they say, and "loves" us, then why not? He may not "owe" anyone anything, but he certainly doesn't have to be a dick about it if he exists.

I think most believers can agree that God isn't a man. And while I may sound like I'm being nitpicky, it is an important distinction. God doesn't necessarily have to be Batman or even Superman here. Just because He has divine powers doesn't necessarily mean He'll feel obligated to help every other being in existance.

I know I'm going to sound like a prick and I'm arguing from a position of privilege...but if life in itself isn't enough, then how much does God owe everyone? So God can only exist if everyone has a good life?

The problem I see with the idea that if God is good then He'll give us stuff is that there's really no limit to what we want. Life can always be better and we're always in a state of want. Life can always get worse too. On a scale of worst to best, what part does God have to cross before we all start believing in Him?

It's also a suggestion that if God exists, then He should exist to serve us and make our lives better. Perhaps that isn't really the case though, especially since Adam and Eve started out in the Garden of Eden. If Adam and Eve represents humanity, then humanity's choice drove them out of paradise. If this is the bed that resulted from that choice, then we're all just going to have to lie on it.

It's not that I don't sympathize with people with disabilities, the poor, or the unfortunate. I don't think they deserve it nor am I suggesting that they're lucky. The truth of the matter is, I don't really know. I don't know why bad things happen to good people, bad things happen to innocent people, or even why good things happen to bad people. And I certainly don't know what God's thinking or why He does the things He do.

And while I can see why people don't believe in God because bad things happen or that things don't work out perfectly for everyone, I don't see that as a definite proof that He doesn't exist.

.: Black Kitty :.

And while I can see why people don't believe in God because bad things happen or that things don't work out perfectly for everyone, I don't see that as a definite proof that He doesn't exist.

True, and to counter this "devine miracles" can always be explained. So there is no proof that "He" actually does exist either. Except the Balbefish. :wink:

.: SpANG! :.

SpANG!

And while I can see why people don't believe in God because bad things happen or that things don't work out perfectly for everyone, I don't see that as a definite proof that He doesn't exist.

True, and to counter this "devine miracles" can always be explained. So there is no proof that "He" actually does exist either. Except the Bablefish. :wink:

Well yeah. :) A sunrise could be seen as a miracle...or the planet rotating. Or maybe both.

Either way, I'm content with me believing because I want to. It seems like a valid personal reason.

.: Black Kitty :.

I don't know why bad things happen to good people, bad things happen to innocent people, or even why good things happen to bad people.

Because that is life. There is no force in play here. Shit happens.

The more i dig in this the more it becomes some very vague "hippie" like thing.

We should be happy for the stuff god gives us, but if he doesn't actually give you anything and it's not up to "god" to make you happy.

God is all around although he never actually showed himself to us and he never actually interfer in any big events such as big disasters or terror wars. As a metter of fact he never does anything.

I don't get what there is to believe in.
Man made the bible, man made the churches and temples. Man evolved from apes and wasn't created right away as Adam and Eva.

Where does a god come in?

It's only going to get hippier. :D

VegaX
God is all around although he never actually showed himself to us and he never actually interfer in any big events such as big disasters or terror wars. As a metter of fact he never does anything.

Some may argue that God has already shown Himself to mankind but just in ways and in forms that we don't view as divine. Seeing as how God is supposedly everywhere, He could be anything. Others may argue that for God to interfere with wars would be an infringement on our free will or that natural disasters in itself is neither bad or good. It's just bad to us because it effects us negatively.

Divine miracles can be explained but some may argue that God can do His work through science. Man may have written the Bible but some may argue that they were divinely inspired.

Every arguement can be countered with a hypothetical possibility. Which is why we're on the fifth page and it's not that different from the first. :D

.: Black Kitty :.

Black Kitty
Every arguement can be countered with a hypothetical possibility. Which is why we're on the fifth page and it's not that different from the first. :D

It's not a easy subject for sure, and not one likely to be "solved".

Fun to debate though. :wink:

VegaX

Black Kitty
Every arguement can be countered with a hypothetical possibility. Which is why we're on the fifth page and it's not that different from the first. :D

It's not a easy subject for sure, and not one likely to be "solved".

Fun to debate though. :wink:

Amen to that!
ha....amen...god yes or no...joke...bad..im done...

Honestly though, if you look into it at this point in time, science proves about as much about creation as God does. The only reason people lean toward sciences side, is the simple fact that they can touch it, smell it, and taste it. They have something to prove that it exists. (Then we get something like scientology...which has no supporting evidence...at all.) I don't know why i lean towards Christianity. I didn't always truly believe, when i was a kid i would just repeat things i'd heard. Then one day i just really felt like i understood, and it was a revelation for me, and i wanted to know more. It's caused to want to pursue becoming a Pastor. I feel i have purpose, and like i can really help people.

How do you go about proving that something doesn't exist anyway? Maybe you don't see it here, but it could be on the dark side of the Moon. Maybe it's orbiting Saturn or it's in another galaxy. You can play this game with any hypothetical construct and keep insisting that its non-existence has never been proven.

Just look at what we've done with the God concept. There used to be gods at the tops of mountains, then the concept moved to the clouds, and then it was space and so on. Now God doesn't even live in the same dimension as us. He has his own time and space that's independant of us, apparently. It's like every time we make a leap forward and discover that God's not there, we move him away to the next seemingly unattainable frontier.

Just look at the story of the Tower of Babel. God divided the nations because they were building a tower to the sky. He didn't want us up there in his kingdom. Now we live in the 21st Century, and we have commercial air travel. Hmm... Seems God has changed addresses.

The point I try to make, personally, is never to prove that God doesn't exist. Rather, it's to say that there's no reason to believe in God.

Anyone correct me if wrong about this but somewhere in the bible apparently God says something to the affect of whatever you believe about me is true...don't quote me on that exactly. So if the people believed God was in the clouds then he was. So when they started to build the tower God destroyed it because he didn't want his people to be equal to him...again im just taking guesses from what i know, so...
I never actually thought about that..come to think of it i hadn't heard of the Tower of Babel till recently, could you gimme a reference?

Mr. Neil
Just look at the story of the Tower of Babel. God divided the nations because they were building a tower to the sky. He didn't want us up there in his kingdom. Now we live in the 21st Century, and we have commercial air travel. Hmm... Seems God has changed addresses.

The bible was written to the understanding of people at the time. When that story was written, people believed the world was a giant dome, so, naturally, the Tower of Babel made sense to them.

....Hasn't this "the bible isn't meant to be taken literally" thing come into this conversation already?

*glance*I read the first few pages, but I kinda skimmed the rest, so if this has already been covered, I'm sorry for repeating.

I believe in God. Rather, I believe in a Goddess and a God. Make fun of that much all you want. It's not because I blindly follow what I've been told, but through personal experiences, that I've arrived at this conclusion. I accept that it's a possibility that it's all made up in our heads. I accept the possibility that it might just be an instinctual comfort blanket that we all cling to. I accept it's a possibility that what I know might be wrong. That doesn't make me stop believing, though.

Science is a process of understanding the natural world through a process of testing hypotheses and either proving or disproving something. The problem is, our means for testing things are still limited to the very tangible, the very material. This means exploration of proving or disproving the existance of God(s) is also limited. So, if you go by what we have available to test the existance of God, then it's going to be limited.

The beginning of the universe has been pondered since, "like, forever!". I believe it didn't "start" in a way we understand right now; our whole concept of time is based on cause-effect. How do we know time has moved forward? Because something has changed from one moment to the next. Thus, we can't understand how something exists outside cause-effect. I don't know the answer to this either. Maybe it was started by a divine force; maybe not.

Why does life hurt so much, if there's a God? Think about the hardships you've gone through. Everything teaches you something. Maybe it teaches you not to trust anyone; maybe it teaches you to trust everyone. Something can teach you the value of your love for someone or something else. When children are born with disabilities, for example, that's what their path is in this life.(Yes, I believe in reincarnation). We come closer to understanding ourselves and the universe through both pain and joy, peace and war, suffering and healing. It's completely autonomous, happens without "The Hand Of God". At least not directly. This is what I believe, though. Just my opinion.

People turn to God for hope, redemption, a sense of purpose. It's important to let people have their beliefs, no matter how silly they may seem, because it's so close to our hearts to feel a connection with something bigger than ourselves. Sorry for the long post, but this is something I've contemplated a great deal, and is important to me.

So many opinions. It's a matter of opinion. And what about my Divine Council of Monkeys theory? For all we know, the world could be nothing more than the figment of some kid's imagination!

Mr. Neil
but there are many, many patently absurd stories in the Bible that are, in fact, meant to be taken literally. Among them, the virgin birth itself.

yeah, the "Angel Gabrial" made her pregnant.

-But no i havn't been sleeping with another man, i promise.
it was a.....angel...yeah, a angel made me pregnant.

"Angel Gabrial" huh?
More like the "guy next door Angel" or "pizza delivery boy angel".

:wink:

Kennedy0
True, but we're talking about the "bible" god here. In which case, he is a loving god and is looking out for humans.

I find it questionable if the definition of a loving God to you is the same one that's in the Bible. We are talking about the same God right? The one that sent plagues into Egypt, turned cities into ashes, and flooded the whole world? (To be fair, this is also the God who created man in paradise and sent His only son to die for the sins of mankind.)

But the real question I have, which I'm having a hard time phrasing, is whether or not what we see as loving acts are the same as what a divine being would see as loving acts.

For example, supposedly when you die, you may wind up either in heaven or hell (or maybe even in purgatory.) Some people may find a loving God and them going to hell to be two contradictory ideas. A loving God who has your best interest at heart shouldn't allow you to go to hell right? Or should He?

The point I'm trying to make is that God may be loving and He may have your best interest at heart...but that doesn't necessarily equal to you getting what you want. He's God, not a genie. :P

So God can only exist if everyone has a good life?

The christian god, yes. Otherwise the entire bible contradicts itself.

So what of the things God said to Adam and Eve upon casting them out of Eden?

Suffering is everywhere in the Bible. Oh hell, the Son of God gets nailed to a cross. Not everyone was having a great time in the Bible but God's existance wasn't in question.

.: Black Kitty :.

Wasn't the holocaust all the evidence we needed to entierly disprove god? at least in the "all loving" sense.

I don't see how that justifies god letting people be systematically exterminated according to their ethnicity, religous beliefs, and the like, if there was a christian sense god then he simply wouln't allow things like that to happen.