Quick poll. Discussion optional.

IT'S A TRAP!

With the risc of being called one of Satans minions....

I guess it makes people feel better knowing someone is watching over them but it also makes no damn sence.
In our world full of science and research there is no place or a reason for a god to exist.

What about the greek gods and the Vikings believed in Odin and Thor. We laugh about that now but still WE in this day believe in some kind of force called "GOD" that never does anything, or did anything for that matter since he clearly didn't create the universe or life on earth.

I believe in science and facts. Thank you!

VegaX
With the risc of being called one of Satans minions....

I guess it makes people feel better knowing someone is watching over them but it also makes no damn sence.
In our world full of science and research there is no place or a reason for a god to exist.

What about the greek gods and the Vikings believed in Odin and Thor. We laugh about that now but still WE in this day believe in some kind of force called "GOD" that never does anything, or did anything for that matter since he clearly didn't create the universe or life on earth.

I believe in science and facts. Thank you!

here's a fight i have fought before. I myself consider myself to be a religious person, but probably the farthest thing from a perfect christian. I have had my doubts the existence of a god, but after a long time of thinking about it, to me a God is the only thing that makes any sense at all.

What created the Earth?
The Big Bang
What created the Big Bang?
the mix of certain chemicals in space
What created these chemicals? What created Space?

There are only two explanations that have any reason for me. One, is of course God.
or two, there was never a time of nothingness. Which, to me, just make very little logical sense. Some how the "first" thing had to be created, by something that is fully aware of itself, and can exist without being sentient. Im just a person who thinks it had to begin somewhere. And until someone can prove me wrong, and i seriously don't think that'll ever happen.

This is just my opinion, maybe i missed something, but i think my explanation is quite thorough.

There are only two explanations that have any reason for me. One, is of course God.
or two, there was never a time of nothingness. Which, to me, just make very little logical sense. Some how the "first" thing had to be created, by something that is fully aware of itself, and can exist without being sentient. Im just a person who thinks it had to begin somewhere. And until someone can prove me wrong, and i seriously don't think that'll ever happen.

This is just my opinion, maybe i missed something, but i think my explanation is quite thorough.

You have missed something. There could be an answer that is not readily available to our brains. This could just be that no one has thought of it, or that our brains can't envision something beyond linear thought.

PhatScurl
And until someone can prove me wrong, and i seriously don't think that'll ever happen.

This is just my opinion, maybe i missed something, but i think my explanation is quite thorough.

How about proving that God DO exist? Thats pretty tricky aswell.
I had a long discussion with some friends about this and the more you dig the more absurd the notion of a god becomes.

God didn't write the bibel, some monks did. And as time goes by more and more of what is written in "the book of god" becomes plain fiction.

I mean Adam and Eva. Really?
Is there anyone who doesnt believe in evolution, that we once were singlecelled organisms and much later became apes?

We visited the moon, explored the universe. Is god somwhere out there drinking tea?

Why is believing in "Thor the thunder god" so absurd, when its just as absurd believing in this "new" god that we've also never seen.

Work on your spelling, VegaX...

Anyway, I don't believe God exists. Sorry, but it's just a happy fantasy that we've come to believe because people have been telling us this from birth. Plus it gives people hope, and hope is what we need to live, so a belief is a God that watches over us gives us hope and a feeling of self-worth.

But it's arrogant to think that an ultimate being really cares about humanity.

Belief in a divine presence and following chrisitanity are not related.

wow, umm...im a little outnumbered here, so i can't debate well, ummm...could i get some reinforcements here

I've noticed that the common basis for disbelief in God usually seems to be a lack of proof of God and some proof contradictory to the scriptures. Has anybody ever thought that this may be due to a test of our faith which is currently happening? I just wanted to throw that out there, being barely anybody seems to think of that.

Sorry to kind of pop your dramatic bubble there buddy, but we do think of it. We also think of how ridiculous an idea it is.

Why would He be testing our faith? To what point and purpose did he even create the world, much less us, for that matter? Why make us, only to test us? And why did His "personality" change so much since Jesus? Before he was "fire and brimstone" "locusts upon your blaspheming city", but what about nowadays? You don't see guys with magic staffs pushing aside oceans anymore. Whats with the change? I'll tell you whats with the change.

Before, during the "BC" era people were barbaric and pretty much superstitious as all get-out. If you were like that, and some guy came and said "Remember that lightning that struck your house the other day? That was because you had sex!" you would probably believe it, especially if he was charismatic. Don't you see it's just a control thing? People trying to gain power and prestige by claiming to believe in some "Grand Entity" and then reaping the benefits of people obeying what they say. Can you say "Power Trip"?

Then, during the time around when the Bible was formed, if my history serves me right, and if it doesn't don't tear me to pieces guys, was during the time that the Romans were in power, spreading enlightenment and warfare accross the "Western World" They conquered people, sure, but it was also an age of learning. You know, great Roman Scholars and painters and the like. Or not. Maybe that was the Renaissance? Whatever. They point is, there was a change in the general flow of humanity. People began thinking with reason. Explaining a lightning bolt off as Gods Divine Hand wasn't as easy anymore, so they decided not to say those things, because it just lost them their credibility. The Church has adapted, and changed, over the years, to better suit the mood of humanity. If it was truly driven by a divine source, then it wouldn't be slowly being chipped away and becoming more "inviting" . It's all about how many people you can get to listen to you.

Wow. Off my soapbox now. Sorry, I'm tired, didn't mean to offend anyone, my opinion doesn't count for much anyway, don't take it seriously, I'm actually agnostic myself. Just pointing out flaws in the Church, I suppose.

Edit: Phatscurl, the Earth was not created by the Big Bang. You've been misinformed buddy. The UNIVERSE was created by the Big Bang, if thats a theory that you agree with. And then the Galaxies were created by all of that stuff spontaneously coming into existance condensing together due to the force of gravity, and then within little clumps of that the gases compressed even further to a point where they began to create radioactivity, thus creating suns. Then all of the dust particles and gases floating throughout space (Which was rather small back then compared to now, according to the theory, which states that the universe is continually expanding and will do so forever or eventualyl shrink back to nothingness) formed different acretion disks around the Sun, much like you see around, say Saturn. These disks then gravitated, over eons of traveling through space, to certain points on them that had larger masses. After a long period of time, the entire acretion disk clumped up together into a giant piece of rock, which started to spin, also due to gravity. This spinning and the rotation around the sun shaped the rock into a "mostly sphere" which would be the planet Earth. So I suppose, in a long convoluted way the Big Bang DID create the Earth. Thats kind of like saying a butterfly beating it's wings in China can cause a Tornado in the US, but I suppose it's semi-factual.

"meh."

It does or it doesn't. No need to discuss something that will never be answered.

.: Myxomatosis :.

Myxomatosis
It does or it doesn't. No need to discuss something that will never be answered.

Give it more years. 100, maybe less, And the notion of a god will be something we shake our heads at when reading the history books. Many, many people are doing that already.

ccs1989
Work on your spelling, VegaX...

he-heh, i got a little carried away in the heat of the debate. English isn't my first language. :wink:

Isn't there a video that says "Bananas prove that God exsists"?

:|

VegaX
Give it more years. 100, maybe less, And the notion of a god will be something we shake our heads at when reading the history books. Many, many people are doing that already.

I disagree with that immensely. The christian and jewish churches have lasted longer than nearly any other religion. The church has done a great job protecting the faith and keeping it alive. The testaments haven't changed in all these years, and if they did, it wasn't noticeable. Christianity and Judiaism and two religions that are just too enormous to disappear in 1 century. Plus, with a group of people like the muslims, where it is be Muslim or die, if a day comes where no believes, it'll be milleniums before it happens. Frankly, that wasn't the most thought out statement you've ever said.

PhatScurl
, if a day comes where no believes, it'll be milleniums before it happens. Frankly, that wasn't the most thought out statement you've ever said.

A lot has happend in the last 100 years regarding science and we just know much more than we used to. I mean the first man walked on the moon as late as 1969.

Give it another 100 and even more things about the universe will become clear. As it stands, thru science we know god didn't create the universe or life and he sure isn't doing much nowadays and im sure he won't stop by for a chat anytime soon. So even if he IS out there somewhere what's the point in praying to him?

If i must believe in some fantasy figure id rather believe in Gandalf, or superman. :wink:

VegaX

PhatScurl
, if a day comes where no believes, it'll be milleniums before it happens. Frankly, that wasn't the most thought out statement you've ever said.

A lot has happend in the last 100 years regarding science and we just know much more than we used to. I mean the first man walked on the moon as late as 1969.

Give it another 100 and even more things about the universe will become clear. As it stands, thru science we know god didn't create the universe or life and he sure isn't doing much nowadays and im sure he won't stop by for a chat anytime soon. So even if he IS out there somewhere what's the point in praying to him?

If i must believe in some fantasy figure id rather believe in Gandalf, or superman. :wink:

Since when did we figure that God didn't create the universe or life. We don't know; everything describing creation is simply theoretical. There is more proof of Jesus performing miracles then evolution ever occuring. Instead of looking at just the evidence that proves there is no God, try looking at some of the overwhelming evidence, there was and still is a God, then you can come and debate against me VegaX.

I'm not convinced either way. I dislike organised religion, so i don't participate in that. but God? I'm not sure.

try looking at some of the overwhelming evidence, there was and still is a God,

....Like what?
Don't tell me you count the bible as evidence?

Hey, maybe i'm just a skeptical bastard, after all i don't think that Santa Clause exists either....

Stain
I've noticed that the common basis for disbelief in God usually seems to be a lack of proof of God and some proof contradictory to the scriptures. Has anybody ever thought that this may be due to a test of our faith which is currently happening? I just wanted to throw that out there, being barely anybody seems to think of that.

Look, most people believe God exists because their parents tell them that he does when they're young. If you're told something again and again as a child by someone with authority (like a parent or church leader) then obviously you're going to believe it. They've done psycological tests with things like this. However just because a wide majority of people think that God exists because people have been telling them that from birth doesn't make it true at ALL.

What really makes me mad about religion are people like Pat Robertson and other televangelists who make millions off of crap like this.

OR he killed them so they will be in heaven, nearer to God.

What is this? An intelligent conversation going on in the Top Drawer?

In here? The Top Drawer? Something is wrong.

.: Myxomatosis :.

Um, no.

What you're not getting here is that you've been told from birth that there is a God. And therefore you believe it. However the idea of God itself is just human-kind struggling for self-justification. We all want to feel protected, so we allow a myth about an all-knowing being who watches over us to be implanted in our heads. However this blind faith does nothing more than diminish us as a species, as we think that we can be saved by praying to this all knowing being.

Belief in God makes us lazy.

Myxomatosis
What is this? An intelligent conversation going on in the Top Drawer?

In here? The Top Drawer? Something is wrong.

If I had known that this would turn out this rational, I would've put this in D&D.

WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW

Tater Salad
Moving, cause we don't need sensible shit here in the TD.

Bah. Now I have to remove the poll.

(god was winning by a point)

EDIT: And I can't even do that. Bah.

equinox
but the extreme simplification of 'there is no god/goddess/whatever, and there is no afterlife' seem a bit simple.

Tell that to the animals, they live their lifes just fine without any god. You don't see my cat going to church on sundays. ( He'd rather sleep or hunt birds. )

They, of course, never get to heaven as only us "intelligent humans" get to heaven. :roll:

Humankind always seems to think that their better and deserve more, but in fact, we're all animals. My cat won't go to heaven and neither will we, cos it's all made up.

Just like Santa Clause!!!!! :)

As lame as it sounds, I just feel that god exists...maybe it's just because I live in a conformist world where religions have become cults that are pretty much only trying to say many things are sins (seriously, I read an article that said christian churches were have a meeting on how the penis is evil and a tool of the devil...soooooo, uh...yeah, adam donated to a sperm bank or something or is it all bullshit?)

While I do beleive in god and jesus, religion blows...and another thing (as coperate avenger would say) the bible is bullshit...it was written by men, clearly it could have mistakes or leave parts out. Not saying it false, not saying it's right, just saying, it's bullshit...religions treat it like it's all there is.

MechaShiva
doesn't animal absence of belief in a higher power, prove something?

Yes, it does prove something. As you say, its just something made up by people to make them feel better. To find a meaning. Animals don't have to make up some stuff about a god, they just live their lifes.

equinox
And the whole comparing any sort of greater power to santa clause is not appreciated. I see that same comparison in every 'Is there a god?' debate. It's old, worn out, and proves nothing.

Might not prove anything, but it's funny, and comparable. People are easily fooled, and can believe in pretty much anything. Even something they never seen, heard or talked to. At least i got to see Santa when i was a child. Can't say God visited me much. :)

In reference to comparing God to Santa Claus:

Awright, i can tell you right now why that comparison is down right stupidity. First, lets go back to the years A.D. 20-50. What you people are trying to explain to me is that a group of at LEAST 30 people got together and just started talking to different scribes about this guy named Jesus who performed amazing miracles and called himself the Messiah, the Son of God. One, NOBODY much less a group of uneducated people can come up with a story as extravagant and detailed as are printed in the bible. And the many events that occured after his death, such as Paul, the man who once was one of the biggest prosecutors of christians, all of a sudden becoming probably the most famous messenger in its history. Or Constaninople right as he is about to go into battle praying to several Gods, and ends up seeing a vision of a cross, which he told his soldiers to paint on their shields, and they come out the victors. Are you trying to tell me that an uneducated group of fisherman just spun this tale off the top of their heads?

Now let's go back even further to a time barely recorded. Maybe you cared to explain how a massive wooden boat is sitting on top of a snow covered moutain in modern day Turkey right now. And what about the Jews escaping slavery out of Egypt. Do you honestly think the Pharoah would just let his slaves walts right on out, or maybe the Jewish people came up with that whole story just like they did the damn holocaust!

To make God appear like a fairy such as Santa is probably as stupid as VegaX's statement about the church falling in the next 100 years!

NOBODY much less a group of uneducated people can come up with a story as extravagant and detailed as are printed in the bible.

The bible is still just a book. Written by humans, not god. You can't point to the bible and claim it contains any facts. So upon removing the bible from the equation what OTHER facts are there?

Maybe you cared to explain how a massive wooden boat is sitting on top of a snow covered moutain in modern day Turkey right now..

Oh man, are you talking about the ark now? The boat that had two of each animal on it? You actually believe in that?
Can you imagine the incest that would cause.. :lol:

Seriously though, I havn't read anything about any boat on top of a mountain in any major newspaper. I'd love to read more about that if you can point to a article. (and it better not be some magazine that also claims that Elvis is alive... :roll: )

Thanks for a great debate by the way. Im having fun. :-D