TheMidge28
...I am not trying put forward an agenda or convert anyone to my beliefs. My questions are more directed to the discussion of the idea of god not my personal beliefs of the god I worship and how I decided on this god over other gods. Do you see what I am trying to get at? We can have a civil discourse about the idea of god without making it personal...or have I missed the understanding of this thread. If so I guess I'll stop posting.

Honestly, I don't know how to have a conversation about god without getting into my personal view of god, the universe, etc. I mean, god (as far as I know) isn't going to post for Him/Herself, so all we have are our personal views. I can't discuss the idea of god outside my ideas. So you go ahead, sorry to go off on a tangent, I'll stop.

midnightstories
You might be bagging suffering and evil and stuff like that. But I for one want it. Sure nobody wants to see suffering or bad things happen. But without it you would stop being a human. You would no longer have a freedom of choice. If we were all good how would we know what evil is. We would be brainless zombies follow a predetermined path. I want both good and evil, hopefully I'll choose good. I know what you're going to say evil is winning the battle only if we let it and hey I'd rather die a free man and choose to be good than be told you will be good.

You know I specifically responded to this exact point. So I'll just quote myself.

bobhhh
No I don't want to make us all good people, but why not stop some really horrendous bad things from continuing once in a while? In the bible, if you want some precedent, he was supposed to have stopped by all the time to fix things, test people and prove his existence. Supposedly. So where is he now? Is he camera shy? What's the harm in him stopping by and ending genocide in Darfur. Why is that such a big problem for you? You would celebrate this action if a man did it, why is god exempt from doing some good when its within his scope of ability?

Why does it have to black and white? To you any intervention by god would be robbing us of self determination. I say that's a convenient rationalization for his absence, or rather his nonexistence.

It's the old slippery slope thing again. You set the terms: Freethinkers or brainless zombies. I don't except that scenario, I feel we can be free thinking people who are struggling to survive and can be secure enough in our sense of self enough to except help, whether it comes from our fellow man(which I'm sure you wouldn't be so quick to condemn) or god and not see it as a moral and existential defeat.

Furthermore, it may be convenient to for the sake of debate to make grand Shatner-like statements about the need for suffering, but I would like to see you explain that to victims of tsunamis, wildfires, floods and war. I would also be curious to know how you might feel about god if you lost a loved one in a flood or earthquake.

Be careful about the philosophical detatchment of debate, ideas are abstract, but suffering is tragically real.

Except for the fact that many people who do suffer STILL believe in a god. And even through their suffering acknoledge that they have been blessed. I have heard it from people who have lost loved ones, and people who have suffered great things themselves. They all seemed to think that their suffering put things in perspective and that as horrible as the events were, they were made better for them. I think you are putting words into many of the sufferer's mouths. Some might be bitter like you seem to claim they should be, but many see the bigger picture.

bobhhh
I stand by my statement which nobody refuted.

I can prove my hand will burn in the fire. It's a scientific fact.

The afterlife, Satan, Zeus, God, Jesus's resurrection are all suppositions. You can't show any proof. You can't apply the scientific method.

I'm sorry, but you are equating, "cannot prove" with "have not YET proven".

All scientific FACT that we know today was once supposition. People in the 1800s could not prove the existence of the atom. They postulated its existence. They supposed. But it was not until our technology advanced to a sufficient degree that that supposition became fact.

It is very similar with the afterlife. Yes, you may be able to burn your hand now. That is not a fair comparison to something that happens AFTER YOU DIE. The afterlife is proved everyday. Everyday people die and find out what comes after. Unfortunately they can't tell us. Does that make what happens any less true? Because whatever happens, happens, whether we know/believe it or not. When it happens to us, we will know the truth.

I am of the opinion that science will eventual prove God's existence. (I don't mean that some jerk with a satellite will take a picture of God, but that we will find some evidence that was not open to us previously because of our lack of the proper technology)

God is not 'scientifically unprovable", simply "scientifically unproven as yet".

Loud_G
God is not 'scientifically unprovable", simply "scientifically unproven as yet".

Unproven as of yet, still means unproven, which means no proof. And I would like to repeat that many assertions in the bible are not just unproven, but actually proven false and that their status is fairly unlikely to change. You want to play this game of semantics, we can go round and round, but please don't pretend you don't understand my point.

Proof is required to call something real. God is not real, because there is no proof. You might hope for some to magically appear someday, but that doesn't change the fact that there is none now.

I'm sorry but that is just very unscientific.

Proof has never determined existence of anything. It has merely confirmed it. Proof doesn't MAKE something exist. Something exists and then we find proof.

The Proof of God is there, just because we have been unsuccesful in the actual measuring of said proof does not mean it doesn't exist.

That is the point where the proof=God thing that so many athiests cling to doesn't make any sense. What we know of the world didn't just happen. There was a lot of stuff that we didn't know. Heck, we STILL don't know a lot of stuff. The more we learn about the world/universe, the more we find that we don't know.

For someone to claim, there is no proof, thus he does not exist is ridiculous. And no, I was not playing a game of semantics. There is a very REAL difference between unproveable (notice the "able") and unproven. Most atheists I've debated with are staunch in their unprovABLE stance. This is unscientific. A true scientist has his/her mind open to ALL posibilities. They gather data over time and certain possibilities gain more credence. To flat out state something unprovable is not only narrowminded, but does not allow for scientific discovery/progress.

Think of all the technology we WOULDN"T have if scientist said, "Meh, that is silly, that will never work." It is by seeking out the unknown, the silly, the impossible that any and all progress has been made in the realm of science.

Again, Proof does not make something real. You have it backwards.

There are many theories in the area of science that are entertain even without proof, simply because we are unable to prove it. Do they give up on those areas because of the lack of proof, no.

Loud_G
I'm sorry but that is just very unscientific.

Proof has never determined existence of anything. It has merely confirmed it. Proof doesn't MAKE something exist. Something exists and then we find proof.

The Proof of God is there, just because we have been unsuccesful in the actual measuring of said proof does not mean it doesn't exist.

That is the point where the proof=God thing that so many athiests cling to doesn't make any sense. What we know of the world didn't just happen. There was a lot of stuff that we didn't know. Heck, we STILL don't know a lot of stuff. The more we learn about the world/universe, the more we find that we don't know.

For someone to claim, there is no proof, thus he does not exist is ridiculous. And no, I was not playing a game of semantics. There is a very REAL difference between unproveable (notice the "able") and unproven. Most atheists I've debated with are staunch in their unprovABLE stance. This is unscientific. A true scientist has his/her mind open to ALL posibilities. They gather data over time and certain possibilities gain more credence. To flat out state something unprovable is not only narrowminded, but does not allow for scientific discovery/progress.

Think of all the technology we WOULDN"T have if scientist said, "Meh, that is silly, that will never work." It is by seeking out the unknown, the silly, the impossible that any and all progress has been made in the realm of science.

Again, Proof does not make something real. You have it backwards.

There are many theories in the area of science that are entertain even without proof, simply because we are unable to prove it. Do they give up on those areas because of the lack of proof, no.

By that logic everything is exists. Fairies, Leprauchans, Trolls...

They are after all just unproven, right. That logic is bass ackwards. You can't prove a negative. I can't prove god doesn't exist. If you posit the existence of god, then it is YOU who have to provide proof to back up your claim. This is very simple logic, but I am becoming convinced that in your eyes god gets a pass here that Tinkerbell doesn't enjoy.

I mean are you that focused on god that you can't apply common sense to this situatiuon? Forget about debate for a moment. Think about real life. If I tell you I can jump 40 feet in the air, wouldn't you demand proof? Isn't it just me talking unless I can prove it? Suppose when you demand proof for my outrageous claim I say I don't feel like it today, does that mean it's true until you can prove that I can't? And how can you prove I can't jump 40 feet if I never am forced to prove it?

Let's face it, you wouldn't even pay your utility bill if there wasn't proof in the form of a meter, and if your bill was much higher than normal one month, you would call up and demand proof that the reading was correct.

I remain unmoved by your circular logic. You are just too way out on a limb here to believe.

I thought you'd say something like that ;)

yes, I made my last argument a tad over the top, but I figured that your silly logic should be returned in kind.

I believed in God long before I had proof. I've since received plenty of proof. I am not debating God's existence anyway though. I've merely been explaining my beliefs (as the original question asked). I've tried to answer the questions put to me, not as a debater arguing points, but as one in the know explaining to one out of the loop.

I know God lives, without a doubt. He is not only creator but Father of our spirits. We lived with him before this life and we will return to him to make an accounting of our probation period here on this earth. He knew we would fall short of perfection but he prepared a way for us to make it back despite our faults, if we would put our faith in Christ His son. He is merciful and will not condemn someone for believing the wrong thing. Even the atheist, the pagan, and the wrong denomination of Christian have access to His mercy. Nothing about God or Creation is disproven by science. Science everyday provides further proof of the workings of our world and is in complete accordance with belief in God. It is not God vs. Science. Never has been.


Those who find God hard to believe in always seem to jump to the ridiculous in attempt to make believers look like loonies. It is unkind, but more importantly makes for spurious arguments.

That last post of mine was merely to point out that the high horse of "science trumps God" is indeed a ridiculous point. There is no scientific reason NOT to believe in God. So, to those who keep shilly shallying around the point, stop hiding behind science and just come to grips with the fact that you "believe (and have faith) that there is no God" and "God is not an "unprovable" but merely an unknown.

Be honest with yourself and accept that you merely don't believe.

YOU claim its not a matter of belief, but your fervent and often circular arguments (yes you too) prove otherwise. Only staunch belief in something can make a person so riled.

I respect your decision believe in nothing and as long as you don't belittle other people's belief in something, we can still be friends at the end of the day.

To you, my position seems illogical. To me your position seems illogical. That is why we are comparing beliefs, to see what each other holds as true when it comes to God.

I would like to know why you disbelieve in God. No, not excused like "oh the suffering" or "life stinks". Unless those two points are the sole creeds of your disbelief. :)

To me God is not a way to explain the unexplainable. He is a person, true and living, kind and loving, with whom I have a very dear relationship. God is not an idea, He is not a way to control people. He lives as much as we do. He is not a standard bearer, He is not an ideal. He is my Father. I hope to be a good human being, love everyone around me and help those who need help, so that I may be a good son and make my Father proud to have me home again.

Loud_G
I thought you'd say something like that ;)

yes, I made my last argument a tad over the top, but I figured that your silly logic should be returned in kind.

I believed in God long before I had proof. I've since received plenty of proof. I am not debating God's existence anyway though. I've merely been explaining my beliefs (as the original question asked). I've tried to answer the questions put to me, not as a debater arguing points, but as one in the know explaining to one out of the loop.

I know God lives, without a doubt. He is not only creator but Father of our spirits. We lived with him before this life and we will return to him to make an accounting of our probation period here on this earth. He knew we would fall short of perfection but he prepared a way for us to make it back despite our faults, if we would put our faith in Christ His son. He is merciful and will not condemn someone for believing the wrong thing. Even the atheist, the pagan, and the wrong denomination of Christian have access to His mercy. Nothing about God or Creation is disproven by science. Science everyday provides further proof of the workings of our world and is in complete accordance with belief in God. It is not God vs. Science. Never has been.


Those who find God hard to believe in always seem to jump to the ridiculous in attempt to make believers look like loonies. It is unkind, but more importantly makes for spurious arguments.

That last post of mine was merely to point out that the high horse of "science trumps God" is indeed a ridiculous point. There is no scientific reason NOT to believe in God. So, to those who keep shilly shallying around the point, stop hiding behind science and just come to grips with the fact that you "believe (and have faith) that there is no God" and "God is not an "unprovable" but merely an unknown.

Be honest with yourself and accept that you merely don't believe.

YOU claim its not a matter of belief, but your fervent and often circular arguments (yes you too) prove otherwise. Only staunch belief in something can make a person so riled.

I respect your decision believe in nothing and as long as you don't belittle other people's belief in something, we can still be friends at the end of the day.

To you, my position seems illogical. To me your position seems illogical. That is why we are comparing beliefs, to see what each other holds as true when it comes to God.

I would like to know why you disbelieve in God. No, not excused like "oh the suffering" or "life stinks". Unless those two points are the sole creeds of your disbelief. :)

To me God is not a way to explain the unexplainable. He is a person, true and living, kind and loving, with whom I have a very dear relationship. God is not an idea, He is not a way to control people. He lives as much as we do. He is not a standard bearer, He is not an ideal. He is my Father. I hope to be a good human being, love everyone around me and help those who need help, so that I may be a good son and make my Father proud to have me home again.

Listen I am a humanist, so I harbor no ill will towards my fellow man, unless they work hard to earn it, which you haven't done at all. And I hope taking a contrary opinion to you is not misconstrued as an attack, I rather enjoy debates. I also don't strive to make you look foolish, on the contrary, you are quite eloquent in your rebuttals, but I have to point out what I feel is lazy logic, and unconditional belief in a deity is in my opinion not giving your deity enough credit.

And I don't think this is a battle between god and science. That is like a battle between algebra and art, it's no battle. I merely point out that while you seem rational, I am constantly force fed a disrespect of science from religious types, and that to me stems from the very same lazy logic that allows for god with no demand for accountability.

Personally I have no problem with god when he is being held up as an example of how to treat each other as decent human beings, when he is worshipped and emulated as a wellspring of compassion, inclusion and forgiveness.

You don't have to believe in god to be a the type of person he would appreciate.

Loud_G
I would like to know why you disbelieve in God. No, not excused like "oh the suffering" or "life stinks". Unless those two points are the sole creeds of your disbelief. :)

You didn't direct the question at me, but I'll take a stab at it.

I don't believe in Zeus. I don't believe He came down to earth in the form of a swan, raped a woman named Leda, and she subsequently gave birth to Helen of Troy. Interesting story, but I don't believe it. I don't have any proof one way or another, but it just doesn't sound believable.

I don't believe in Odin. I don't believe He has a son named Thor who controls thunder and another son named Loki who is a trickster god. I don't believe they live in Asgard, a mighty kingdom that lies at the end of a rainbow bridge to earth. Wonderful stories that can shed light on the human condition, but not literally true. I don't have proof one way or another, but I don't any reason to believe it as true either.

I don't believe in Isis, Kokopelli, Ra, Radegast, Hermes, Lahar, Veles, Kus, Rod, Honos, Utu, Shamash, Hades, Aken, Bata, Osiris, Ha, Pluto, Apollo, Heka, Eeyeekalduk, Xochipilli, Himerus, Kamadeva, Siebog, Nezha, Gwydion, Bamapana, Huh, Meni, Kala, Fabulinus, Mimir, Yuanshi Tianzun, Jabru, Mot, Namtar, Wepwawet, Rudra, Saa, Aker, Petbe, Vidar, Kaus, Dhara, Zempat, Sumugan, Enki, Ash, Buxenus, Sucellus, Viridios, Shara, Laran, Ares, Huitzilopochtli, Dionysus, Thoth, Ganesha, Dagr, Lugus, Crom Cruach, Aah, Hilal, Mensis, Amm, Juthrbog, Tecciztecatl, Chandra, Alignak, Mummu, Enki, Omai, Qat, Bumba, Gukumatz, Cghene, Con-Tici Viracocha, or any of the other thousand gods that have been worshiped over the past millenia.

In fact, when it comes my atheism regarding 99.999% of these gods, I daresay you and I are probably in agreement. I doubt that you pray to any of these individuals or believe them to literally exist and/or the stories about them to be literally true. So we share 99.999% of belief in terms of atheism.

So really, I only disbelieve in one more god than you.

To those of you who are theists and do believe there is a god, do you also believe in Zeus? Do you believe that He raped women? Do you believe in any of these other gods, and if not, why not?

I would like to know why you disbelieve in God. No, not excused like "oh the suffering" or "life stinks". Unless those two points are the sole creeds of your disbelief.

Why don't I believe? Really now have you been ignoring me?

I don't believe in god because in my short life I have yet to see a scintilla of proof. Conversely I have seen nearly every adherent of god to believe or have unshakable faith without any other reason than that they do.

At best they try to tack god onto existence, "look around you, creation is proof of god" they say. Well there is ample evidence that it happened naturally, while there is no conlusive proof that the guiding hand of god had anything to do with it.

I used to play this game as a kid.

I would stare at traffic lights and try to time my saying the word "change" with the lights changing color. I might convince my self I was responsible for the lights changing, but I wouldn't really have any proof but my belief and there is ample evidence I had nothing to do with it.

God exists.

He is the only being capable of true love that doesn't depend on a carrot and a stick.

As for the existence of God in my life, I just remember how he saved me from total financial, emotional, and psychological ruin... and equipped me with the necessary tools and mindset, so that I wont be making the biggest mistake that woulda cost me dearly.

God hasnt forgotten me even though I cursed him and denied his existence for awhile. lol its like a blessing in disguise. And it still moves me to tears whenever I think about what the Lord Jesus has done for me. It was a big thing.

Its like replacing my beat up Toyota with a Jaguar. :)

There is God.

But I'm not here to flame non-believers.

kyupol
God exists.

I doubt that, and youre simple declaritive affirmation is not compelling proof.

kyupol
He is the only being capable of true love that doesn't depend on a carrot and a stick.

Really now? You'll have a tough time supporting that with facts, but I'll take a stab at refuting you with some. How about Mother teresa? Do you think she needed bribing to do great works and show unconditional love?

kyupol
As for the existence of God in my life, I just remember how he saved me from total financial, emotional, and psychological ruin... and equipped me with the necessary tools and mindset, so that I wont be making the biggest mistake that woulda cost me dearly.

I suppose your parents had nothing to do with forcing some common sense into your head. Maybe some friends, teachers and community leaders? You might say god equipped you at birth with a soul that had clear instructions on how to solve life's problems. What about people who do suffer financial ruin? Were they given bad equpment? Did god decide financial ruin was ok for them and not for you? Why?

kyupol
God hasnt forgotten me even though I cursed him and denied his existence for awhile. lol its like a blessing in disguise. And it still moves me to tears whenever I think about what the Lord Jesus has done for me. It was a big thing.

How do you know he hasn't forgotten you? Maybe the reason you didn't suffer ruin is that he missed you, perhaps you just fell through the cracks? It's certainly as plausible an explanation as he chose you to succeed while others failed. Perhaps he was busy "equipping" Kenneth Lay to bilk his innocent employees of their 401K's. That Kenny sure was equipped with the necessary tools and mindset!

kyupol
Its like replacing my beat up Toyota with a Jaguar. :)

There is God.

Actually it's more like bumping into Bugs Bunny and trading your car in for controlling interest in the Brooklyn Bridge.

kyupol
But I'm not here to flame non-believers.

Flame?? Are you kidding, I'm your best freind, I want only the best for you. You should be thanking me for inviting you to excercize logic.

bobhhh:

lol what a cynical post. Someone more cynical than I am. lol

That has done nothing for me to change my beliefs in God. And nothing would. I dunno. Perhaps you can argue about "parents, community leaders, etc..." Yes you're right. Blame the intensive religious indoctrination (or brainwashing as you might say) I had from birth till 16 years old (I'm 23 now).

After being exposed to the Western way of thought that has no room for God (I'm a first gen immigrant from a culture with a strong belief in God), I did question God, curse him, and deny his existence.

But whether God exists or not...

The act of believing in a God has done something GOOD for me.

Something like raising my spirits when I feel down. The motivation for me to keep getting up and not giving up in life.

Perhaps you might argue... that your friends and family raised your spirits when you feel down. Your boyfriend or girlfriend... close friend... even your DOG or CAT... yeah. They were there when you needed em. Good for you if that is the case. But what will you do WITHOUT them?

If I didnt believe in God, there would be nothing worth living for in this earth.

I'm not cynical, I'm happy. I was just applying logic to your blind faith. I'm happy for you that your belief in god gives you solace.

I wanted to respond to you since I felt your previous post implied that I and others were the flamers by taking a contrary position to believers like you.

And yes my little french bulldoggie gives me great comfort. I'll take a lick on the cheek any day over an unanswered prayer. :D

Everything was going great, until Jesus made me drop that pass!

The spirits of my dead ancestors give me great solace.

I don't really know and I don't pretend to know. Organized religion assume they know exactly how God is. Atheists assume that logic dictates there is no God. However, in my opinion, logic states we don't know and shouldn't make it a concern. I've been Apathiest for a while now. In my eyes, I'm not offending any God by belonging to the "wrong" religion, and even if it turns out God does exist, he didn't make it obvious to me, so he can't keep me out because I didn't pick one of the thousands of religions in the hat and happen to draw the right one. If he is gonna' be a dick about it, do I really want to spend eternity with him? Honestly?

So in other words, I don't argue God exists, I don't argue he doesn't. I just don't care. Believe what you want, preach to me is you must, don't get determined to turning me.

Nobody gets it. I don't argue god doesn't exist. How can I prove that? I just refuse to believe in god without proof, as I would refuse to believe in anything without proof.

You're probably apatheist too, then.

Atom Apple
In my eyes, I'm not offending any God by belonging to the "wrong" religion, and even if it turns out God does exist, he didn't make it obvious to me, so he can't keep me out

Wow.

Atom Apple
You're probably apatheist too, then.

You know i like the the term as well as any other.

The problem with all these terms is they define you by your relationship to god.

I don't feel like an atheist, etc. I just feel like a person, and I don't need a label slapped on me by people who believe in god.

Just sayin...

Ludus Pragma
Since the subject keeps coming up I thought I would be good to have a debate thread devoted entirely towards the concept of god.

Aside from a polite debate where people can rationally express their ideas I hope this thread will provide us with a foundation for future debates by allowing us to define our terms. After all there is a huge range of inter-related but sometimes mutually exclusive concepts about god that can lead to people debating with each other and totally miss each other's meaning.

To be honest I am an atheist and my interest is purely academic.

So, god is...

You are not necessarily an athiest. An athiest believes there is NO god, at all. The fact that you started this thread to explore the topic of the Deity as you did implies that you are actually an Agnostic. An agnostic believes in only what can be proved, and takes nothing on Faith. An Atiest has Faith--it's just faith in their BELIEF that there is no deity--which is a religion all unto itself!!!

These forums are fun!

I have just read through a large chunk of this forum thread. Wow, there are some really intelligent, downright brilliant people writing here. The nature of God has been a topic of much debate for so many centuries--I almost feel like I am in the Forum of Athens, listening to Sophocles lecturing on God--and that is a wonderful thing. Everyone here, everyone contributing to this amazing discussion should be proud. I know, it will all get lost in the internet rubbish heap...but friends--all--this discussion has rocked! I regret that I cannot truly add anything more erudite to this. I have my beliefs and my conversations with my Deity, but none of that can show you a proof. I guess my question is this, why does it matter that there is no consensus on who or what God is. (I promise you, She doesn't really care, but She loves how the minds of her creations work...opps sorry, that slipped out) God or No God is a deeply personal thing. For those of us who have that spiritual connection--it is wonderful and we wish to share it with everyone--trouble is, it is easy to get derailed and angry when the wonder of our personal vision is thwarted or dis-agreed with. I think the best idea is to accept that everyone believes in that vision of god or no god that brings them the most comfort...and then have the strength to back away and let others live as they will.
An ye harm none, do as thou will!

bobhhh
The problem with all these terms is they define you by your relationship to god.

I don't understand why people have a battered wife relationship to god.

"I know he loves me, he only hits me when he's drunk or angry..."

Well, here we go again...
Another topic to waste the time of good cartoonist like us.
Listen up.
People will believe what they believe.
There will always be some jerk trying to convince you otherwise.
There will always be some war, metaphoric or literal, to "defend" there beliefs.
And as such I am a LDS Mormon.
I don't practice multiple marriage.
I do believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.
I do believe that Gordon B. Hinckly is a prophet of God.
I am a furry.
I don't look at yiff.
I am not gay or bi.
I just have a different view, so get over it.

Tybalt Makoto
Well, here we go again...
Another topic to waste the time of good cartoonist like us.
Listen up.
People will believe what they believe.
There will always be some jerk trying to convince you otherwise.
There will always be some war, metaphoric or literal, to "defend" there beliefs.
And as such I am a LDS Mormon.
I don't practice multiple marriage.
I do believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.
I do believe that Gordon B. Hinckly is a prophet of God.
I am a furry.
I don't look at yiff.
I am not gay or bi.
I just have a different view, so get over it.

Hey TM, believe whatever you want, but this is a discussion and any search for truth is not a waste of time.

bobhhh

Tybalt Makoto
Well, here we go again...
Another topic to waste the time of good cartoonist like us.
Listen up.
People will believe what they believe.
There will always be some jerk trying to convince you otherwise.
There will always be some war, metaphoric or literal, to "defend" there beliefs.
And as such I am a LDS Mormon.
I don't practice multiple marriage.
I do believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.
I do believe that Gordon B. Hinckly is a prophet of God.
I am a furry.
I don't look at yiff.
I am not gay or bi.
I just have a different view, so get over it.

Hey TM, believe whatever you want, but this is a discussion and any search for truth is not a waste of time.

Guess it is just a point of view. The truth must be discovered for one self. As for me, I have discovered what I believe to be the truth.

Tybalt Makoto
The truth must be discovered for one self. As for me, I have discovered what I believe to be the truth.

Yikes. I know 80 year old priests that admit not having it all figured out. Good for you! :D

Bob is right that searching for truth is not a waste of time, but the problem is that we've been there and back again. I don't think anyone's searching for truth so much as they're stating their viewpoint and then denying any other possibility... all this in an argument where it's completely impossible EVER prove or refute God's existence.

To tell you honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing this thread locked like the Atheism thread... Just like that thread, this one's been going in circles for a long time now. Going in circles IS a waste of time. I'd wager we could reach 30 pages of this and we'd still never get anywhere. The one snag is that you know as soon as this thread's gone we'll see one just like it.

But I won't lock it right away. If you guys give me an indication that this will go beyond "Yes there is a God", "No there isn't", and "You can't prove it", we let it run its course. Otherwise, just tell me we're tired of this and I'll lock it.