Black_Kitty
in a way, at least to me, all questions regarding God and His ability to prevent/allow evil comes down to this: which is more important, the eradication of evil or the preservation of free will? Which is more important, the ability to choose or the inability to commit evil? And are you truly doing good if you cannot commit any evil? If you only have one option...do you really have options?

That's part of the problem of evil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_problem_of_evil#Free_will [en.wikipedia.org]

We are still having to contend with a omniscient being that by his passive omniscience still exerts knowledge giving us a fatalistic view on our lifes. If he exists that is.

But we are still left with things that are inherently harmful. Such as diseases and natural disasters. Why would god create things that are only able of causing harm ?

But we are now straying from the original threads purpose.

I'll stick with my earlier definition.

God is something people can cling to in hope of feeling their life has a purpose.

Shar
But we are still left with things that are inherently harmful. Such as diseases and natural disasters. Why would god create things that are only able of causing harm ?

I dispute the idea that diseases and natural disasters are evil. I know you didn't say they're evil but the impression I'm getting is that they are inherently harmful and therefore they are bad.

Do you find a tornado to be bad if it happens in the middle of nowhere? Or is a tornado only bad when it strikes in a well populated area? Is cancer in itself bad? Or is it bad when it grows and kills those you love? Are all natural disasters and diseases bad or only the ones that kill people?

I know I've been dancing around it for a while but part of me is nervous. I don't want to be flamebait-ish since that's not my intention at all. But to steer the conversation back to the original topic at hand and in the interest of being honest... I feel that for some people God is their magical sugar daddy. If God doesn't exist to serve you, then God doesn't exist at all. And that's why to many, God doesn't exist. Life and the world itself is not satisfying enough.



There's a part of me that disputes the idea that a passive omniscient being produces a fatalistic view on life. At least not while believing in the concept of free will. But I suppose that's a conversation for another day.

Aurora Moon
Tell that to all the Christains who believe otherwise.
"A Murderer or a rapist is evil and therefore shall go to hell as punishment for being evil!! The same for anybody else who has promicous sex, etc..."

AH but I didn't say there "wasn't punishment" I just said that it was ABOUT punishment. :D (punishment and eternal punishment are also different things)

Murder and Rape are sins that if unrepented* for will keep you from passing the test.

*Repentance is a lot more complicated than merely "I'm sorry." It involves the sacrifice of Christ in order to bring all of us up to a plane where we have an actual chance of making it into the kingdom of God. No person on this earth could make it without Christ, but unfortunatley even with Christ, some are not willing to change their ways. They cannot return to God's presence. Not because it is a punishment per se but because they, due to their choices in life, A) would not want to be there, and B) could not withstand being in God's glory.
The whole Heven/Hell thing is more complicated too. There are varying degrees of Heaven and varying degrees of Hell.

Also a person cannot sin in ignorance. If they are ignorent of a sin, they are not culpable. Until of course the person learns. Knowledge carries responsibility. The more knowledge the more is expected. But we also cannot be "saved" in ignorance. Sooner or later all who are truly ignorant will be informed as to the rules of Heaven.



Black Kitty, I think you have it it right on the head. (with the sugar daddy comparison)


The biggest misunderstandings about God seem to come from a misunderstanding about people and what we are.

Some people think that we are spontaneous entities, who by chance and luck happen to exist. Others think that God made us to please him, to worship him. There are many different takes but none really approaches the truth.

We are all eternal beings. We all have a spirit inside us which cannot die and which existed before we were born and will exist after our bodies rot in the earth. This is key to understanding God. If we were mere creations in God's toy-world/sandbox, then all these rules and Heaven/Hell all of that would make no sense what-so-ever.

But we are not mere whim's of a super powerful being.

Death is not the biggest tragedy of life. Its not a bad thing at all. It is merely a transition from one place to another.

Before this earth was created, we lived with God, who is the Father of our spirits. We wanted to be like Him. We were taught and we grew and developed. But there reached a point where we could not grow any further while still in His presence. While we were with Him there was no question that we would want to do as He wanted. He was our Father, we knew Him and loved Him. So he devised an earth as a further training ground. The reason for the earth was two-fold. It was to provide us a place where we would not be under the direct influence of God, so that we could develop further, learn more, and be tested. The second reason was to gain a body. God, our Father had a body, but we did not. To become like Him we needed one.

Now there was a large council in Heaven, before this plan was set in motion. God knew that out of His sphere of influence we would not be perfect, so part of his plan involved a Savior, to show us the way and make our return possible. Jesus Christ, the first of God's spiritual children, volunteered. He said He would do whatever the Father wanted and the Glory would be the Father's. He knew that not all His children would make it back, but it was the only way to be sure who was up to snuff, so to speak, to see who could stand up to the pressure, who could be trusted.

Now there was another of the spirit children of God who was afraid. He wasn't sure that he would make it back without God's influence. So he volunteered too. His name was Lucifer. But it wasn't enough for him to volunteer to be Savior and executor of God's will, Lucifer wanted to change the plan. He thought he knew better than the Father. So he proposed a plan where EVERYONE would return to the Father because they would all be FORCED to be good. He thought this a much better plan than God's and said, "I will bring them all back, and the Glory will be mine."

God rejected Lucifer's plan and chose Christ as the Savior. Lucifer did not accept this choice and was angry that his "superior" plan was not chosen. He rebelled against God. He had created a following and Lucifer and 1/3 of God's children were evicted from Heaven for rebellion. They were so angry that the plan of Forced Righteousness was not chosen that they determined to throw as many wrenches into the works as they could and so became the Devil and his angels. Because they were evicted before the plan was accomplished, they never received mortal bodies. And so as spirits they wander the earth tempting man. Now because they are merely spirits they can have no power over man except what power man gives them. So they whisper to man, hoping to trick him into sinning. For each time they trick man into sinning, the more in their grasp that man becomes.

But Christ came to balance the equation. He came to show the way. He also came to suffer for our sins so that (if we accept and follow him) we would not have to suffer for our own sins. But free agency was given to man in the beginning. It was by free agency that Lucifer was allowed to rebel, it is by free agency that we can choose how to live our life. We can choose to do whatever we want. But their are consequences for our actions. Not punishments per se, but as in physics: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So also for every action we take on earth there is a consequence, be it a good consequence or a not so enjoyable consequence.

Lucifer wanted to avoid the consequences, which is why he sought to take away free will. But it is such a precious thing that we are truly free that God defended that right.

After we are finished with our stint here on this earth we will return to God to report on how we did. This is generally seen as the Judgement. Christ will be there to speak for us. We will present ourselves and it will be seen that yes, we sinned, but we learned from those sins and bettered ourselves and took Christ's sacrifice and followed him. That way we will be able to re-enter God's kingdom as heirs. His son's and daughter's returned in glory and triumph.

Those who during this life willingly and fully knowing the plan rebel against God and His laws will be unfit to enter His kingdom and just as the early rebels in the beginning, they will be cast out, forever unable to be in God's presence. Willful rebellion is the only unforgivable sin, because the sinner is unwilling to change. God would accept gladly any who desired deep in his heart to change and be good, but as we have seen he will never force us. So God is forced to send them away as unfit.

It is ALL about free agency, from beginning to end. This is not a fatalistic end. It is merely that we are in the middle of the test and we are unable to see the beginning or the end. We wander in the dark, but a light was given to us if we but desire to change and follow.

that's a very nice story, Loud G.

very different from the verision that people tells to people at the church that my mom goes to though.

So to me that tells me that it's only YOUR inteperaption too of that whole situation just as the priests of my mom's church also had a different take on it. For instance, the priests say that luficer rebelled long before Christ ever did his thing. even right before he was born. That he started right in the garden of eden.

so to me, I honestly don't feel that you're more correct or anything like that. Don't take offense to that though.

But of course, the only way we can really know for sure is when we all die. I bet the truth is nothing at all like what we were all told in every religion though... that there was more to it than we thought.

To me god is not the big question. Existence is the big question, even god had to have a creator and so on and so on. Somewhere out there way pass the edge of the universe is a place that has always existed the laws of physics time and nature as we know it, just does not have any relevance there. One of the big question is why were we made what is our purpose are we just to be slaves to a faceless god. At one point in time this universe will end. So it really doesn’t matter who god is or knowing the answers to existence because it won’t make a difference in the end. All we can do is celebrate our lives the best way we can. So lets stop asking and start living the clock ticking.
Midnight
Of cause there are a few of us who have seen things that other people haven’t seen and we have a different perspective on life and of cause we all think we are right

Aurora Moon
very different from the verision that people tells to people at the church that my mom goes to though.

So to me that tells me that it's only YOUR inteperaption too of that whole situation just as the priests of my mom's church also had a different take on it. For instance, the priests say that luficer rebelled long before Christ ever did his thing. even right before he was born. That he started right in the garden of eden.

Yes, It is quite different than is preached in most churches, though nothing that I said can't be found in the Bible. (Even though, many don't find that as proof in any case :) )

Maybe I muddled the telling a little but Lucifer DID rebel before the garden of eden, he DID rebel before Christ was crucified. Christ was just chosen at the same time Lucifer rebelled, he hadn't actually gone to earth yet at that time. No on had. :)

And yeah, everyone will find out the truth once they die. but that's no reason to not try and find out now. :)

yeah. But I have to wonder, is it even possible to find out the "truth" while we're still alive?

So shouldn't our time be more better spent trying to live a good life, and being the best person we can possibly be while we're at it....instead of wasting all that time searching for the truth and figuring out who's "right" and who's "wrong"? After all, wouldn't it make you competely foolish if you died and it turned out that what you thought was "right" wasn't exactly right after all, but only a series of HALF-truths and Half-lies like everything else on earth?

I mean, if you waste time searching for the truth without really doing much with your life, I get the feeling that if there is such a thing as THE god, he's going: "Man, you fail. It's not supposed to be all about the destination (truth), it was SUPPOSED to be all about the JOURNEY, aka what you did with your life!! You didn't do that much with it as I would had liked...(sigh)."

Lol

Very good conclusion. :)

By all means we must live our lives to best we can, be the best human beings we can, help, love, befriend, live, etc. But you don't have to pick either/or :)

That way if we were wrong, at least we were good. Good is more important than right it is true. Being right and bad won't get us anywhere. Being good and wrong, is a great place to be in. God is merciful and won't smack you because you were misinformed, as long as you did your absolute best. However, being Good AND Right would just be awesome. :)

Loud_G
That way if we were wrong, at least we were good. Good is more important than right it is true. Being right and bad won't get us anywhere. Being good and wrong, is a great place to be in. God is merciful and won't smack you because you were misinformed, as long as you did your absolute best. However, being Good AND Right would just be awesome. :)

true enough. :)

My problem with the idea of a creator is that he is not worthy of worship. At best he can be like the owner of a cosmics zoo, at worst he is the kid with a mignifying glass frying ants.

Why is there suffering? Why do millions of people die. Many God types say that it's us who allow this to happen, but what about Mr. all-powerful? Why doesn't he have more press conferences? Why doesn't he round up more evil people and ship them off to purgatory so us decent folk can thrive???

Or maybe we provide him with wry amusement? Or maybe we bore him with our suffering?

More likely he is not there, and when ou pray you are merely talking to yourself.

Bob

bobhhh
Why is there suffering? Why do millions of people die. Many God types say that it's us who allow this to happen, but what about Mr. all-powerful? Why doesn't he have more press conferences? Why doesn't he round up more evil people and ship them off to purgatory so us decent folk can thrive???

I point you to the "Sacredness of Free Will" and the "This life is but fleeting" and the "purpose of life" and the "please get over it" arguments that are listed in some detail earlier in the thread. :D

For discussion...
I believe there is a God.
I have had experiences which will never make me question his existence.
I am not going go into detail because they are personal to me and I am not one for trying to force my beliefs and thoughts on anyone.
I think about God time to time...kind of like an old friend.
One that I can call anytime and catch up.
I see him as a person with thoughts, feelings, goals, desires etc.
And as such how you treat him does have an effect in a way...
because think of how you treat people and how people treat you...
if some one is a jerk to you, how does it make you feel?
Can God be so different?
I am not saying I am or the human race is God but I believe we were made in his image and such I think there is something in that.

I hope that makes sense.

Loud_G

bobhhh
Why is there suffering? Why do millions of people die. Many God types say that it's us who allow this to happen, but what about Mr. all-powerful? Why doesn't he have more press conferences? Why doesn't he round up more evil people and ship them off to purgatory so us decent folk can thrive???

I point you to the "Sacredness of Free Will" and the "This life is but fleeting" and the "purpose of life" and the "please get over it" arguments that are listed in some detail earlier in the thread. :D

The free will thing is just another dodge. It's like a parent abandoning a child to fend for himself. If one considers that god is supposed to be all knowing and we aren't, then as our creator it is his responsibility to make sure we are safe and happy. A responsible parent does not let his child poke his finger in a lightsocket just to encourage free will.

really?

how better to teach your kids not to do something than to let them do it and discover that it hurts? (In the case of the minor stuff that is) :D

You tell a kid, don't touch the stove, its hot. They may believe you, they may not. But they will certainly understand if they do reach out and touch it.

The Free Will thing is so not a dodge. I don't understand why its hard to grasp.
It is nothing like a parent abandoning a child to fend for himself. And even if it were, that is how birds learn to fly. They can't be molly coddled the whole way. The parents just let them jump. Sometimes they learn, sometimes they don't.

But like with birds, there are just some things that people have to learn on their own.

People only say that the "Free will Argument" is a dodge because they really don't sit down and try to think what it would be like to have no free will. Mindless automotons. There would be no point to life without Free Will.

God can't just swoop down and punish people for being bad BEFORE they are bad. And it sounds like some of you wouldn't be happy with him unless that was what he did all the time. If He did that, then they technically would have done nothing wrong. It would be kind of like that movie...what was it...with Tom Cruise...Minority Report. That was bad. Not a good govenmental move and not in line with justice.

Almost every form of suffering on earth boils down to Free Will.

Murders
Crime
Starvation
War

the list goes on. Only Natural disasters and disease can cause suffering which man did not cause. Though in many cases man could prevent that suffering too.

We are here to learn to use that free will to end suffering, to promote happiness, and good works. If God took all the suffering in the world away, where would we be? Would any of us learn to give? Would we learn to be compassionate? To love? If there was no suffering could we know what joy was? No. There has to be pain in order for joy to exist. If God took away all that was bad, we would never have good.

Loud_G
Almost every form of suffering on earth boils down to Free Will.

Murders
Crime
Starvation
War

You made some interesting points until this.

First of all, starvation is not always about free will, somtimes its ecological.

Then you conveniently leave out things like earthquakes, hurricanes and naturally occurring diseases.

And what about that free will thing? is it free will when a kid gets beaten up? where is his free will? Is god saying the meek must suffer? What is a good person who wants only peace and tranquility supposed to do under this system? allow himself to be abused in the name of god's wisdom or take up arms and overcome the oppressor with violence? Is this a good cosmic plan? God in his infinite wisdom creates imperfect beings and says, "go out into the world and destroy it and yourselves if you want, I can't help you because you have free will, sorry."

Free will requires responsibility, compassion and empathy, three things sorrowfully lacking in his creation. If god is so smart, why didn't he just build us better? Planned obselecence is supposed to rain down from detroit, not heaven.

Bob

*sigh*

Starvation is solvable. WAR IS solvable. That was my point. Free will doesn't not just involve the sufferer. It involves the one causing the suffering. It involves the one ignoring the suffering. It involves the one with the power to make change (whether or not they do)

Starvation's cause may SOMETIMES be ecological. But usually it is political. And even if it were the 1 in 100 ecological cause, then the solution can be found by excercising Free Will. The solution to every problem boils down to a use of Free Will.

Free will requires responsibility, compassion and empathy, three things sorrowfully lacking in his creation. If god is so smart, why didn't he just build us better? Planned obselecence is supposed to rain down from detroit, not heaven.

I'm sorry, but Free Will doens't require anything of the sort. It is free SO that people can choose however they WANT. Not so they can be FORCED to do the RIGHT thing.

I didn't leave out "earthquakes, hurricanes, etc." I was speaking on Free Will. I mentioned those things as not being related to the topic at hand. We cannot control those things, but we CAN control how we prepare for them and react to them.

You are focussing so intently on a single person that you forget that free will is not just personal. Everyone has it. It creates a huge web of inter-related people. It is not a one on one thing.

The world would not function without the Free Will that God gave to us. Nothing would be accomplished. Science would not progress because no one would need anything. People would not learn, because they didn't need to make anything better. Did you even read the last half of my previous post, or just stop at my short list of examples?

The dichotomy that is created by the excercise of Free Will is paramount to our overall hapiness. We cannot be happy without being sad. It is impossible. Unfortunate things happen, it is true. But if tey didn't we could never appreciate the good things that happen. We would have no point of comparison. Life wouldn't be life. You're system would not be worth living. It is a very intelligent God indeed who set up this perfect system. None of our feeble efforts to "perfect" the system would do any good.
THAT was the plan of Lucifer, take away Free Will. Make everyone good and responsible, no matter what.

Everyone complains about how terrible dictators are but then they demand that God be an even worse dictator. We would be slaves under the grand new world that you offer up. God set us up to be free. Some may die early. It is unfortunate, but death is not the end. Death is not to be feared. If you truly understood the range of eternity and the scope of it all, you would see how perfect the plan is.

God in his infinite wisdom made life the only way life could be. Free. Anything less and He may as well have made a race of slaves or robots. Anything less than free is not life.

Loud_G
*sigh*

God in his infinite wisdom made life the only way life could be. Free. Anything less and He may as well have made a race of slaves or robots. Anything less than free is not life.

The only way???

How about creating a race of elevated beings who do not make each other suffer, not because god is policing them like a mortal dictator, but because they lack the desire to cause pain to their fellow man? No, that would make way too much sense.

And if we are meant to suffer, then I go back to my assertion that god is sadist who likes to see us jump like ants under a magnifying glass. This puritanical notion that we must know pain to know pleasure, bad to know good, is just an arbitrary set of rules which can be changed by the dungeon master.

Again, more likely is that there is no god and we struggle to create him in our image so we can explain things that we don't understand and be made to fear behaviour we find deviant. For all this nonsense about religion history shows that it has been the source of far more misery and oppression than love and compassion.

bobhhh

Loud_G
*sigh*

God in his infinite wisdom made life the only way life could be. Free. Anything less and He may as well have made a race of slaves or robots. Anything less than free is not life.

The only way???

How about creating a race of elevated beings who do not make each other suffer, not because god is policing them like a mortal dictator, but because they lack the desire to cause pain to their fellow man? No, that would make way too much sense.

And if we are meant to suffer, then I go back to my assertion that god is sadist who likes to see us jump like ants under a magnifying glass. This puritanical notion that we must know pain to know pleasure, bad to know good, is just an arbitrary set of rules which can be changed by the dungeon master.

Again, more likely is that there is no god and we struggle to create him in our image so we can explain things that we don't understand and be made to fear behaviour we find deviant. For all this nonsense about religion history shows that it has been the source of far more misery and oppression than love and compassion.

*sigh* again.

You want a race of elevated beings. What you want is what WE are meant to become. You want the end result without all the work.



As for that "puritanical notion", I don't believe the Puritans held anything remotely like that belief. It is merely a truth about the world, whether you accept it or not. :)


I tire of the "nonsense about religion history". That is such an overused and trite argument. There have always been men who wanted power and would twist any belief (religious or not) to further their ambitions. Religion (true or false) has never been the cause of suffering. It has been (unfortunatey) used as a tool (on occation) by rulers looking for a reason to enlarge their boundaries. That is hardly relgion's fault, but that of rulers and emperors. (Though, I don't believe that the religion used in those historical accounts was the Church of God in any case, but that is a debate for a different thread) :D

Midnight: There is a big difference between serving someone of your own accord and slavery. That's all I have to say.

Black_Kitty
I feel that for some people God is their magical sugar daddy. If God doesn't exist to serve you, then God doesn't exist at all. And that's why to many, God doesn't exist. Life and the world itself is not satisfying enough.

That is so profoundly true.

Loud_G
*sigh* again.

You want a race of elevated beings. What you want is what WE are meant to become. You want the end result without all the work.

Sorry to make you sigh again. Boo hoo, debating is hard!! :P

I again assert that god is a third rate drill seargant if his big plan is that we must suffer and die to become enlightened.

Why can't we have a more socratic relationship with god? Debating the eternal verities would be nice. It seems to me that god's great plan amounts to swatting a fly with a sledgehammer, you might kill the fly, but you're liable to destroy a lot more in the process.

I am agnostic and somewhat feel that Jesus was the Harry Potter of his time, but I recently did a comic making fun of Jesus and although I thought it was hilarious for months before I did it, I can't help but feel bad about it. Kind of a "Just in case," reflex I can't explain.

God is our creator. He came in the flesh as Jesus Christ. Isaiah 53 sums it up intensely, as does the gospel of John about who God is. Contact me if you get to the point of actually seeking God, as he is not far off.

bobhhh

Loud_G
*sigh* again.

You want a race of elevated beings. What you want is what WE are meant to become. You want the end result without all the work.

Why can't we have a more socratic relationship with god? Debating the eternal verities would be nice. It seems to me that god's great plan amounts to swatting a fly with a sledgehammer, you might kill the fly, but you're liable to destroy a lot more in the process.

Man...someone has God Complex! Do really want to be elevated to the same level as God? Do you really want all the responsibility? Do want to deal with all the pain and heartache of the world? Do you think he has the time to argue and justify himself to you? How have you earned that place in his existence to give you the time of day? You haven't and none of us have. That's the thing he can do whatever he wants. The thing is do you acknowledge him or ignore him? Do respect his decision or not? Or come to him or run off saying, "Screw you! Your Dead to Me!"?

TheMidge28

bobhhh

Loud_G
*sigh* again.

You want a race of elevated beings. What you want is what WE are meant to become. You want the end result without all the work.

Why can't we have a more socratic relationship with god? Debating the eternal verities would be nice. It seems to me that god's great plan amounts to swatting a fly with a sledgehammer, you might kill the fly, but you're liable to destroy a lot more in the process.

Do really want to be elevated to the same level as God?

I'd rather not be non-existent, but sure.

Do you really want all the responsibility? Do want to deal with all the pain and heartache of the world?

Big assumption that said deity does. I, as supreme being, decide not to, and decide to float all the brains of the world in a happy fluid, where they experience eternal bliss.

Do you think he has the time to argue and justify himself to you?

I would have thought an omnipotent being could do that. If I was God, I would. I'd eliminate the entire mystery, then go off to play croquet with beings as mighty as myself, rather than stare at my ant farm all day.

How have you earned that place in his existence to give you the time of day? You haven't and none of us have.

Insert something pithy about judgement here.

That's the thing he can do whatever he wants. The thing is do you acknowledge him or ignore him? Do respect his decision or not? Or come to him or run off saying, "Screw you! Your Dead to Me!"?

I would also get rid of this whole "your" "you're" business. As God, I remove the grammatical issue altogether.

Problem solved.

TheMidge28
Man...someone has God Complex! Do really want to be elevated to the same level as God? Do you really want all the responsibility? Do want to deal with all the pain and heartache of the world? Do you think he has the time to argue and justify himself to you? How have you earned that place in his existence to give you the time of day? You haven't and none of us have. That's the thing he can do whatever he wants. The thing is do you acknowledge him or ignore him? Do respect his decision or not? Or come to him or run off saying, "Screw you! Your Dead to Me!"?

I don't have a God complex, I have a truth complex, a common sense complex. I raise these ironies because to me if all these confusing and indefensible qualities of faith are necessary for knowing god and attaining enlightenment, then god is no better than the producer's of FEAR FACTOR!! Personally I would rather have a plastic box filled with bugs around my head than live in a world where where greedy evil people are allowed to torture, plunder and kill people so we can learn a lesson about life.

If god allows suffering of his creation then he is worse than useless. He is an absentee landlord, and on earth we chastise them as vampires.

Hey if you gain solace from the convoluted logic leaps that justify "god's will" then fine, I actually envy you being able to talk yourself into that. But the problem with religion is that its filled with zealots that can't leave well enough alone. They need to convert people. They need to claim special privelige, like tax breaks. They want to refute science because it makes them look ignorant. A great truism states that you're right to swing your arm ends at my nose.

My point is that god makes no sense and his working in mysterious ways is a classic dodge, because it ends rational discussion. Fine for you but pass an extra plate and pay your damn property taxes. Stay out of education with your medeival pseudo science, especially when our standing in the world as a technology leader is tenuous at best. Stop bringing your prejudice and proseltizing to politics. We have enough trouble without people making decisions based on fairy tales.

To quote Nicholson, "go sell crazy somewhere else, we're all stocked up here."

mapaghimagsik

TheMidge28

bobhhh

Loud_G
*sigh* again.

You want a race of elevated beings. What you want is what WE are meant to become. You want the end result without all the work.

Why can't we have a more socratic relationship with god? Debating the eternal verities would be nice. It seems to me that god's great plan amounts to swatting a fly with a sledgehammer, you might kill the fly, but you're liable to destroy a lot more in the process.

Do really want to be elevated to the same level as God?

I'd rather not be non-existent, but sure.

Do you really want all the responsibility? Do want to deal with all the pain and heartache of the world?

Big assumption that said deity does. I, as supreme being, decide not to, and decide to float all the brains of the world in a happy fluid, where they experience eternal bliss.

Do you think he has the time to argue and justify himself to you?

I would have thought an omnipotent being could do that. If I was God, I would. I'd eliminate the entire mystery, then go off to play croquet with beings as mighty as myself, rather than stare at my ant farm all day.

How have you earned that place in his existence to give you the time of day? You haven't and none of us have.

Insert something pithy about judgement here.

That's the thing he can do whatever he wants. The thing is do you acknowledge him or ignore him? Do respect his decision or not? Or come to him or run off saying, "Screw you! Your Dead to Me!"?

I would also get rid of this whole "your" "you're" business. As God, I remove the grammatical issue altogether.

Problem solved.

LOL!!!!!

The only assertion I was actually making is that I don't have what it takes to be God and Bob I guess does, if the the idea of god is entertained! And I guess you do too! Also when I assert the idea of God as person and in doing so utilize words as "you and "you're" and "He" and "She" and "It"...

Bob
Hey if you gain solace from the convoluted logic leaps that justify "god's will" then fine, I actually envy you being able to talk yourself into that. But the problem with religion is that its filled with zealots that can't leave well enough alone. They need to convert people. They need to claim special privelige, like tax breaks. They want to refute science because it makes them look ignorant. A great truism states that you're right to swing your arm ends at my nose.

My point is that god makes no sense and his working in mysterious ways is a classic dodge, because it ends rational discussion. Fine for you but pass an extra plate and pay your damn property taxes. Stay out of education with your medeival pseudo science, especially when our standing in the world as a technology leader is tenuous at best. Stop bringing your prejudice and proseltizing to politics. We have enough trouble without people making decisions based on fairy tales.

Bob, are you a painter? You speak very eloquently. I understand where you are coming from. I was only asserting that when entertaining the idea of God...which this thread is about...take into consideration what it means for those that do believe in God. Not everyone who believes in God is an insane zealot who checks their brain at the door. Taking on the role of God is a huge task. And for someone who doesn't believe in God as you and many others have stated...and I respect that...the arguement is a moot point. The idea really isn't entertained and its completely ridiculous. If there was a God, I don't think I could be able to debate with him or question why he does what he does. But I guess we all have ideas of what God is. Yours just happens to be small, retarded and mean...

TheMidge28
LOL!!!!!

The only assertion I was actually making is that I don't have what it takes to be God and Bob I guess does, if the the idea of god is entertained! And I guess you do too! Also when I assert the idea of God as person and in doing so utilize words as "you and "you're" and "He" and "She" and "It"...

But how do you know you don't have what it takes? Its a really big supposition, isn't it? After all, we are the spawning ground of lots of little critters on our bodies, and we kill them with relative impunity, too.

Hey Midge,

It's clear you have no argument if you sink to semantics. Congratulations!!

bobhhh
It's clear you have no argument if you sink to semantics. Congratulations!!

Its an argument about G(g)od, of course there really is no argument. If you get a chance, check out the whole "God's Warriors" thing CNN was doing. There's some really chilling parts in that. Less a debate, more a horror movie, and perhaps a sign of things to come.

mapaghimagsik

bobhhh
It's clear you have no argument if you sink to semantics. Congratulations!!

Its an argument about G(g)od, of course there really is no argument.

Sure you and I know that, but the rules of debate require I give my opponent the benefit of the doubt for purpose of discussion. I sure would like one of them to make some rational statement, and not one that essentially translates as god works in mysterious ways.

Cheers! ;)