crazyninny
If given the choice, I'd rather see a male super hero with a healthy normal body, to a body that looks like it came off of Planet Steroid. @_@

Double agree here. I like heroes to be heroic through their deeds, not in how much sun they block out.

Manga covers all of your requests, then. Especially on the male characters side. Main characters include tall ones, short ones, skinny ones, average ones, and often aren't the most sexy/handsome in the story (most often the villains are).

The muscular archetype in manga usually is undesirable, or drag, or mini-boss walkovers. You do have some like Guts or Ken but nowhere near as pervasive as US comics.

Girls still tend to be sexy, but again often nowhere near the extent of US comics. Look at Kuchiki Rukia of Bleach. [en.wikipedia.org] She's one of the most popular female characters (was/is the most popular) of Bleach, yet look at her... She's barely 5 feet tall, built like a twig, isn't exactly beautiful, and has bad hair to boot (only ppl with straw hair can carry her haircut). Her personality and sense of fashion carries her through.

I think she's proof that you don't have to cater to conventional superficialities to become popular with the general readership. Supermodel conventions only exist because the suits/editors underestimate their readers.

I agree with mlai, and in fact bleach have a bit of everything, we got of course Rukia, and the oposite that is Orihime, but again then we have Orihime's friend Tatsuki =D I love that char and she could be classified as a tomboy, we got bald heroes, runts and Ichigo is far from being the common stereotype, ... I guess Aizen would fit that role.

I won't deny that unralistic bodies exist with manga, both male and females, but I guess it's more balanced.

mapaghimagsik

crazyninny
If given the choice, I'd rather see a male super hero with a healthy normal body, to a body that looks like it came off of Planet Steroid. @_@

Double agree here. I like heroes to be heroic through their deeds, not in how much sun they block out.

Really, if I say a large muscle made guy down a street, I would wonder why he's spending so much time in the gym, and not out in the real world.
Also in reality, blucked up men tend to be very very vain. *Rolls her eyes.* They spend so much time making themselves look like muscle warriors that they just love the mirror than anyone else, so how am I suppose to think that he's going to protect me from a coment?!

But I can totally see a normal built guy saving me from a coment, its far more likely than Hulk would, plus, I would rather date a healthy guy than a streoide user in real life, why should it change in comic world?

mapaghimagsik
And the rest of my post? I agree that body fat and spandex *really* don't work so well in comics, but what about other characters? Did you see any parallels?

I'm not sure I understand your question... yes, not every superhero character conforms to the same "ideal", but when a character deviates from that norm, it's usually a male - the females are almost exclusively attractive. The only exceptions I can think of off the top of my head are Power Girl, who is actually meant to be very muscular and a female character in Checkmate whose name escapes me who is also pretty beefy.

But deformed or at least distinctively unattractive male characters are so rare in superhero comics that I really wouldn't say there's a pattern of "male CAN be ugly, female not allowed to be" here. Reed Richards is an example to the contrary if anything - if you ask me, it's ridiculous to have that grey-templed head on the body of a 25 year old athlete, and few artists have ever given him wrinkles. There's not even a need for him to be that muscular given his superpowers, but he's drawn that way anyway.

As for this:

mapaghimagsik
But, comparing the depiction of women in comics to say, pay equality, pay equality is *much* higher on my "this should be fixed scale".

Yes indeedy. It really irks me how first world feminism today seems to focus on ridiculous trifles when there ARE actually still very real and pressing issues much more vital than the size of some cartoon character's boobs.

spacehamster

Quick note on Power Girl. I missed the over muscled part, but I haven't seen where she sits around moping that she's orange and rocky and only the blind sculptor could ever love a monster like her. "Beauty and the Beast" is a popular theme, and the Beauty is *always* female. Okay, always might be a bit strong, but I cannot think of an example where this isn't true. With women, its usually the 'hidden beauty', where removing the glasses, and the braces, and undoing the pigtails reveals the lovely 'girl next door' which is yet another trope.

Yes indeedy. It really irks me how first world feminism today seems to focus on ridiculous trifles when there ARE actually still very real and pressing issues much more vital than the size of some cartoon character's boobs.

Okay, I started out harsh, and deleted it all, because you did add the word "seems". So, I will politely say that your supposition that first world feminism is concerned mainly on comic boobs is inaccurate.

The amount of efforts going into establishing equal pay, and getting women control of their own bodies totally dwarfs a poster or two talking about potential sexist issues in comics. Dwarfs. Crushes. Totally dominates. Heck, the efforts to make sure sex toys are made with safe plastic (go ahead, if you're at a safe connection, do a search on sex toys and toxicity) totally overwhelm the 'lets talk about comics' issue.

So I'm trying to say your perception might be a little skewed, and that even a quick look at what feminism is fighting for will give a idea of the breadth of the efforts to make the world a better place for women everywhere.

And, at the same time, we can talk about feminism in comics too. There's no police telling people they can't draw a certain way, but to toss out the idea there no sexism in every comic ever written without at least considering it is unfair. I'm not saying you're doing that, but I am saying that there is a place to discuss it, and to think about it, if only because it might make someone think about the themes and concepts in their own comics and maybe make them a little better.

I'm a firm believer that we all have sexist and racist tendencies, but its our actions that really define what we are. Its not fair that my initial reaction to white people is distrust, and I try to make sure that I distrust all people equally :D

mapaghimagsik
Quick note on Power Girl. I missed the over muscled part, but I haven't seen where she sits around moping that she's orange and rocky and only the blind sculptor could ever love a monster like her.

Oh yeah, absolutely. She's also got the oversized boobs to make up for the muscles (which is in itself ridiculous if you look at real female bodybuilders), and a lot of artists forget what she's meant to look like and draw her skinny. Power Girl portrayed properly qualifies as a deviation from the norm of what's generally considered attractive at best, but she's hardly ugly.

your supposition that first world feminism is concerned mainly on comic boobs is inaccurate.

Whoa, that's not what I meant. Maybe my perception is skewed because most of the contact I've had with people who declare themselves feminist has been in academia, and intellectual feminism is rife with the kind of obsession over fighting against windmills and ignoring the real issues that I was talking about. Pointing the finger at the physical qualities of the trypical superheroine and wilfully ignoring their equally unrealistic male counterparts is typical for that kind of attitude, that's all I was saying.

I also think it's silly to focus so much on that instead of the writing and the way gender identities are assigned to characters through their actions, rather than their cup/bicep size. Not accusing you or anyone else of being guilty of this, but that's why I entered this thread pointing out the average male superhero's sixpack and its magical magnetic effect on spandex. It's just that when I hear these retards who point at superhero comics and scream ZOMG Y DE WIMIN ALL HAV BIG BOOBS SEXISISM EVUL!!!!!!11, I want to whack them over the head with a Previews catalog.

Fair enough, but can we count anti-gravity boobs as a super power?

mapaghimagsik
Fair enough, but can we count anti-gravity boobs as a super power?

XD hahaha, that might be really usefull to avoid backache, but they could use the cleavage of doom (quoting something I read on a comic) XD that's a dangerous power to

mapaghimagsik
Fair enough, but can we count anti-gravity boobs as a super power?

Only if the nipples shoot repulsor rays.

spacehamster

mapaghimagsik
Fair enough, but can we count anti-gravity boobs as a super power?

Only if the nipples shoot repulsor rays.

That would be the first superhero comic I've read since "Watchmen".

I wonder if superwomens boobs can be used as floatan devises? They can get so big at times, that I wonder if they can naturally float without doing anything. :/

Hawk
We were discussing the topic of feminism in a previous thread, but that one seems to have run its course. I'm intrigued by something that was asked earlier, and I hope some girls answer.

Girls, what type of women do you like to see in comics?
Can you name some existing examples?
Are the girls you your comics good examples of the way you want to see women portrayed?

I like to see women who don't have that stick figure body. Like the title character Lizzy in the comic by ChainiaC and Lalia in that popular comic Craving Control. There are plenty more examples I could use, but I can't think of any off the top of my head.

All the girls in my comics look like twigs, but that's just how I draw. I feel like I'm being a hypocrite, but it's just how my style is. And it's pretty irritating considering one of the main characters is supposed to look kind of chubby and, well, doesn't. xD I'll be working on that, though. Oh, but I am going to put an overweight guy in there that gets the pretty lady. :D But he's not a girl, so he doesn't count. :P

I would like to see ass kicking girls who ar not the side kicks. And i don't need to see giant boobs flying out of torn clothing thank you very much.

Weirdo
I would like to see ass kicking girls who ar not the side kicks. And i don't need to see giant boobs flying out of torn clothing thank you very much.

I very much agree with you. It's important to have strong female characters that don't just date / assist / stand in the background and cheer. Women who read comics need role models too, and it's an enjoyable thing for a male reader to see a strong female character - especially if she's back-talking some smug male character.

Joss Whedon is a huge advocate for strong female characters in comics and film. In fact, he gave a speech about it:

http://smarttart.wordpress.com/2007/06/13/strong-women-characters/

I miss a lot of TV shows like Buffy, Alias, Xena (well, maybe not Xena so much) where there are strong female characters that take the lead and work pro-actively. It's a refreshing thing to see in media, and a trend that I hope to see more of in the future.

I loved Xena! Man, could that woman kick ass! I always wanted her outfit and frisbee thing when I was a little girl! *Even then I could tell that she and her friend seemed a little to close for just buds. @_@*

When I draw my girls in my comic, I give them all diffrent body shapes, and diffrent clothing tastes. I think its the clothing that really effects them. Like my main girl character is a D-cup, but I've never got any comments on her girls becuase she always wearing modest clothing, but if I draw up a random B-cup dresses sleazly, its all hell let lose!!! @_@

And I'm just going to say it. You all know that Velma form Scooby-Doo is caring it... Come on, just look at her, she's wearing that big thick sweater all the time, yet, even for a sweater her breast are poking out a lot. @_@ You KNOW that she's stacked!

God, I hated Xena. I kept watching it out of loyalty but I hated it. Two reasons:

1. Christian preaching. This is supposed to be Greek myth, but Judeo-Christian advertising keeps popping in and out of the series as the ultimate good guy deux ex machina. I don't want to hear about Jehovah and how He's the ultimate good true while the Greek gods are just weaklings with magic.

2. Mary Sue Xena. An important facet of Greek mythos is how humans cannot go against the gods without tragic consequences, but that's what made the stories great and the characters heroes. But Xena, as a mortal, pretty much kills off the entire Greek pantheon without breaking a sweat. What the crap?

You know who's cool? Callisto. I loved that harpy. I don't remember if she became good in the end (I hope not).

Theres nothing wrong with girl portrayal in comics.

They're mostly competent and beautiful. :)

What I find wrong though... is their being a little too arrogant then still passing off as "heroes".

Seen some views from all over the rainbow. I'm posting mostly because this issue influences a lot of my work. So here's my thoughts:

A lot of comics are written and drawn for males, many of whom don't care if the male protagonists are ugly as long as they embody some ideals. These ideals are typically strength (hence the steroids), dominance (combat ability) or determination, tactical intelligence or leadership, logic, loyalty, charisma, honour, and morality. The male hero doesn't have to have all of them, but has to excel in either strength, dominance, or tactical intellect. So to prove the character is strong, he must look strong, and the stronger the better. Never mind the fact that pure ferocity will take down a bigger, stronger opponent (wolverine, anyone? And you can choose the animal or comic book character, same result). Beauty is not a requirement for the male hero in Western culture, and is sometimes not appreciated. (Eastern culture has a different view on 'beautiful' men)

The female hero? When written/drawn by males or for males, the female hero must have desirable traits that men look for in women. Hence the big boobs and revealing costumes, as well as a general inferiority to the male protagonists in some cases.

My personal favourite female character from mainstream comics? Err... I only have one -- Kitty Pryde (Pride?) from the X-Men. I don't read mainstream comics, but I have the "Mojo Mahem" issue that involves Kitty and the X-Babies. It's a funny story, well drawn and cleverly written, and Kitty takes the lead in the story.

Now -- here's a question. We're all discussing girls in other people's comics, but how about your own? Why did you do what you did with your female character?

I'll start with Skull Girl (Molly) from my own "Super Temps". Since it's a humorous, sometimes satirical parody comic, I'm under some different rules as you don't take it seriously.

Skull Girl has the ideals of beauty, dominance, determination, charisma, and morality.

She's beautiful because I wanted sex appeal and because she had to be super-villainess in appearence but not in personality -- hence the humour. I gave her a skimpy costume for the dual reasons of sex appeal and to parody the costume conventions of mainstream comics and media.

She dominates because it's integral to the story -- nobody kicks more butt than she does, crucial because part of the plot is how hard it can be for a talented person to get started without connections or experience.

She's charismatic (cute) and basically moral because she needed to appeal to the reader and for humour purposes since she's supposed to be an evil villainess.

Finally, she's determined because the harder she tries and the more she fails to be evil, the funnier she is.

Someone
Now -- here's a question. We're all discussing girls in other people's comics, but how about your own? Why did you do what you did with your female character?

Ho ho, time for the self-plug turn for this topic! Every DD topic eventually wanders in this direction. And as I get to know more comics here, I actually read them! So I guess it's not pointless...

FIGHT 1 x-over comic
I wanted a catgirl in my party. Because of how utterly ridiculous she would seem in my story setup, and because I can. Like Beavis & Butthead being roomies with Anne Frank. Originally I was thinking Cheetara of Thundercats. Then I realized that Cheetara is too serious and capable, and defeats the entire purpose of having a catgirl. So I picked the most ditzy, cheerful, jigglelicious, asskicking catgirl that I know of.

No feminists have been banging down my door yet because my readers are too smart and objective. smooch smooch lick lick

FIGHT 2 x-over comic
The tone of this companion comic is much more sober, right from the start. This time the female protagonist is your "typical" fighter with

Smokin
the ideals of beauty, dominance, determination, charisma, and morality.

But what fun is that? Perfect ppl are boring. The way to liven up the situation is to forcibly pair her up with a man who is not beautiful, not dominant, not determined, not charismatic, and not moral. And they're stuck with each other. Then I sit back and laugh as my perfect heroine's perfect composure cracks. It's fun exploring a different facet of her personality.

Now -- here's a question. We're all discussing girls in other people's comics, but how about your own? Why did you do what you did with your female character?

From BK and MAG-ISA

Claudita is the main hero female character. Being an angel, she is superior in every way possible to any human. Strength, speed, spirit force, stamina etc...

However since I DO have a problem with "super-bitch" characters who are made out to look cool, I made her into the nice girl. She's the last girl you'd expect to beat the shit out of a guy over a flimsy reason.

Do you think Spiderman, Superman, and all those male macho heroes will still be cool if they go around beating up (normal) women and the defenseless?


From BK
- Mara-Nina is the main female character. She's a cliche "tough girl" to an extent but its her nicegirl qualities that are given the spotlight.

But yes I admit she IS a bitch (though less than 40%) since its been mentioned she had a violent past where she was evil.



Future char development
- MAG-ISA is gonna have a female character who is one of the agents of hell. She's a ruthless, cunning, psychopathic bitch with looks. Though I might try to humanize her at some point like what they do in Naruto. lol!

kyupol
Though I might try to humanize her at some point like what they do in Naruto. lol!

LOL, "When I was 3 y/o my cousin cut an apple in half and gave me the smaller half and now I angst with a single teardrop in the pouring rain."

mlai
God, I hated Xena. I kept watching it out of loyalty but I hated it. Two reasons:

1. Christian preaching. This is supposed to be Greek myth, but Judeo-Christian advertising keeps popping in and out of the series as the ultimate good guy deux ex machina. I don't want to hear about Jehovah and how He's the ultimate good true while the Greek gods are just weaklings with magic.

2. Mary Sue Xena. An important facet of Greek mythos is how humans cannot go against the gods without tragic consequences, but that's what made the stories great and the characters heroes. But Xena, as a mortal, pretty much kills off the entire Greek pantheon without breaking a sweat. What the crap?

You know who's cool? Callisto. I loved that harpy. I don't remember if she became good in the end (I hope not).

Oh I so agree! The only reason I ever watched it was to see if any of the episodes would simply be enjoyable sword and sorcery fantasy, it even failed in that regard usually because it was always so "clean" (in all meanings of that word), so slick and plastic, full of trite attempts at tough-guy comedy, and the most awful-crappy-fake looking fight sequences, and way too much reliance Eastern Martial art type fighting stuff. ugh. It was a live action cartoon.

Hercules and the Legendary journeys was bad enough, but at least he was a nice guy, which was interesting.- most hero's at that time were hard-men, as well as pricks: but "with a heart". Xena was EXACTLY that type of character, which added to her dullness.

Ah, I've nothing to add about sexism, just wanted to agree with Mlai's comments on Xena and ad my bit.
------------------------------------------------

Oh, I know! What I hate to see is any character, male OR female who is just naturally uber magnificent at anything they do. They're experts at fighting, they look AMAZING with no effort, great hair, they have no failings, amazingly smart, have heaps of high level qualifications from the best educational institutions in the world, they're rich, amazing hackers, experts at anything they try the very first time... I HATE those characters, making a woman like that isn't non-sexist, it's Mary Sue wish fulfilment, as Mali says: Either you want to be her or marry her, but usually no one else does. Really characters like that should only ever be villains since if you had those abilities and advantages you'd tend to abuse them or it would twist your mind and give you a god complex- most real life examples of those sorts of characters I know are either villainous or at least morally ambiguous.
-that applies to males equally in every way.

The other thing I dislike is when a female character is made out to be pretty tough and cool, top dog in one specific field, etc, and some male character just comes in and walks all over her! That's what I hated about the old Wonder Woman stuff. She'd be all tough and able, but as soon as her lovely-dovey military heart throb came on the scene... Or Be-Witched, where you have this powerful woman, who props up this ineffective tit of a man who's amazingly pathetic at everything, but when he criticizes her mother she defends him all the way, and when he tells her off for using magic to do housework or something, she agrees with him! And she still cooks his dinners etc... WTF?
Why did she even do the housework in the first place?
lol! It's not really a product of its time either, things had moved on at least a decade to twenty years beforehand.

Aaaah, Xena. I liked the early episodes of Xena. She was a fun character, capable of great deeds and the star of a series which could move from dark sword and sorcery in one episode to crass slapstick the next. Lucy Lawless was perfectly cast. She looked big enough to be able to handle herself in a fight and had a mischievous smile and a wonderful glint in her eye just before she was about to pummel some bad guy into the ground.

The series went astray, I think, when the producers realised that people were reading a lesbian subtext into it. I've never believed that subtext was there to begin with, but once it became known that people believed it had one, the script-writers clearly went out of their way to include one.

That needn't have been a bad thing in itself, of course, except that the producers seemed to become unclear as to who their primary target audience should be. As a result, the series began to lurch from one angst-ridden episode to the next, becoming more soap opera than action series. I gave up on it long before the final series and, having seen a few of those episodes recently, I am sooo glad I did!

I never had a big issue with the whole Christian thing. The series was set at the beginning of the First Century so, to me, including Christian mythology/history was no less appropriate than the times they included Roman elements.

ozoneocean
What I hate to see is any character, male OR female who is just naturally uber magnificent at anything they do. They're experts at fighting, they look AMAZING with no effort, great hair, they have no failings, amazingly smart, have heaps of high level qualifications from the best educational institutions in the world, they're rich, amazing hackers, experts at anything they try the very first time... Really characters like that should only ever be villains since if you had those abilities and advantages you'd tend to abuse them or it would twist your mind and give you a god complex- most real life examples of those sorts of characters I know are either villainous or at least morally ambiguous.

Yes. Superman has so much to answer for!
;)

Superman isn't a good example. He's strong and has some special powers, but basically he's really just a big dummy. That's how I've always seen him in every incarnation I've witnessed... Besides, he doesn't have wealth, education, etc. he's not great at everything there is to be great at either. He has a limited set of very powerful abilities that he uses to best effect. And he only really uses those during the times that he's flying around in costume. He spends his day to day life as a second rate newspaper crime reporter in a city office. lol!

No, you'd have done better to bring up one of the other silly heroes, who while they may have moral ambiguity about them, DO actually fit better into the great at everything role, not just in terms of silly magical superpowers; Ironman, Batman... ;):);)

---
I agree about the tacked on nature of the lesbian them in Xena though. That was SO tacked on. The show started out as an attempt to capitalise on the success of the Hercules show, trying women in the roles instead and making the main character a baddy turned good, instead of just a goody (as I've said though; in VERY hackneyed and common way). Basically, because of the way Xena was dressed and the fact that her companion was female, that made there be a "lesbian Subtext".

Yeah, right! If that's not sexist I have no idea what is! And so with that perceived impression that actually MADE there be a lesbian theme: The botchy, clumsy hamfisted approach, and the sheer OBVIOUSNESS of the attempts to include the lesbian theme into it at that later stage basically proves definitively that it was all in people's foolish imaginations and wishful thinking to start with.

ozoneocean
Superman isn't a good example. He's strong and has some special powers, but basically he's really just a big dummy. That's how I've always seen him in every incarnation I've witnessed... Besides, he doesn't have wealth, education, etc. he's not great at everything there is to be great at either. He has a limited set of very powerful abilities that he uses to best effect. And he only really uses those during the times that he's flying around in costume. He spends his day to day life as a second rate newspaper crime reporter in a city office. lol!

We'll have to agree to differ on this one. To me Superman has always been the archetypal "great at everything" hero. He's ridiculously over-powered. His moral standpoints are very pure and absolute. He isn't said to have wealth but that good ol' alien technology that built the Fortress ensures he's never left wanting for anything. His education and native intellect aren't said to be super but he routinely outwits Lex Luthor.

In fact, to me, it's because he is so perfect that we have a yardstick against which to measure the weaknesses and shortcomings of other super heroes.

I agree that the early Xenas were good, and as I said the memories of that was what kept me watching to the very end. Yes, Xena was a typical hard-man woman... But as DAJB said Ms. Lawless pulled it off perfectly (you gotta love her name LOL). As with comics, when an actress makes it believable and fun, you don't care that it's a cliche.

The reason I liked Callisto was because once Xena stopped being a fun-loving asskicker and became some angsty lover, I looked for what I missed in Callisto. She was tiny and blonde, but ooh what a hellcat.

And yeah, the nice-guy-hero break from cliche is what kept me watching Hercules and Smallville. Tom is the best Superman IMO since Christopher Reeves, and the show allowed you to warm up to him as a person. If I was a damosel in distress, I'd want Kevin or Tom to rescue me, not that other guy. I basically didn't watch the new Superman movie because whoever that actor is, he's not Superman to me.

DAJB
We'll have to agree to differ on this one. To me Superman has always been the archetypal "great at everything" hero. He's ridiculously over-powered. His moral standpoints are very pure and absolute.

But that's just a perception with him. As I've said; what is stated is that he's extremely powerful and he wins a lot. I'm sorry, but that's just not the "Mary Sue" thing we're talking about, he doesn't really "have it all". That can only be said in terms of his role in the fantasy superhero universe where "having it all" revolves around who is the most powerful. :)

But there's a lot more to it than that when it comes to characters.

Mlai
And yeah, the nice-guy-hero break from cliche is what kept me watching Hercules and Smallville. Tom is the best Superman IMO since Christopher Reeves, and the show allowed you to warm up to him as a person.

Exactly, these days it's rarer and rarer. Those characters sort of seem almost like a father or nice big brother figure. I wonder why we don't have any female hero characters like that around the place?

OzoneOcean said -

"I wonder why we don't have any female hero characters like that around the place?"

Actually, that was one of the the original goals of my character, Futurella. She's meant to be a sort of female superman character, a little overly perfect but actually nice (You know, likeable as opposed to simply desireable). I played around with the character for years, but could never make her click. She was a bit too perfect for me to get an emotional handle on her. What do I know about being so cool and confident?

Then one day I realized that the story could never be about her - she needed a team of sidekicks, like Dr Who - or Doc Savage's Monk and Ham, and so we got Jace and Crow. So instead of being the viewpoint character, Futurella is the big sister to more human characters.

Of course, in a very real way, Rocketship A Go-Go is informed by my own views of feminism and culture (and my own experiences with feminist activism) but of course, I have intentionally blurred all of that by basing it's narratives entirely on the hypermasculine "Atomic horror" B-movies and space operas.

But it doesnt matter how much you htink about these things, the characters eventually evolve in their own directions. Ask me in a year just what Jace and Crow and Futurella really say about my feminism - such things always make more sense hindsight - or SEEM to, at least.

ozoneocean
I wonder why we don't have any female hero characters like that around the place?

LOL, what are you doing? Breaking open the DD self-plug dam?

I know you don't like my comic FIGHT 2 but that's exactly what my female protagonist is. The classic Lawful Good type who's not a hardcase and who's polite to friend and foe alike.