You know, I was reading the article, and a bunch of comments about this whole thing and my thoughts were that yeah, this guy's dumb and a jerk for doing this, but I wasn't feeling particularly upset about it. Then I read zaymac's comment about hot topic stealing from some artist and not removing the design, and that DID make me mad.

I think that's because Bleach is a really popular manga.
I mean, if this guy had been stealing art from someone on DD I would be livid! I guess I just don't feel like anyone got ripped off here? Especially since as it is, they found out, pulled the manga for now and Simmons junior probably won't get the chance to publish another comic after this.

Here's a good article that discuss about the issue with plagiarism not just about Nick Simmons but also on other comic fans and artists.

http://manga.about.com/b/2010/02/26/nick-simmons-bleach-manga-plagarism-scandal-rocks-the-comics-twitterverse.htm

Eunice P
Here's a good article that discuss about the issue with plagiarism not just about Nick Simmons but also on other comic fans and artists.

http://manga.about.com/b/2010/02/26/nick-simmons-bleach-manga-plagarism-scandal-rocks-the-comics-twitterverse.htm

While this article is extremely good at talking about the issue and explaining the differences in publishing in Japan and North America, I do feel it also tries to vilify the odd and prickly area that is fan art, and compare it to out and out tracing.
What the author did is really use this whole incident as a platform to discuss fandom and its bad points in North America. She also seems to be almost defending someone who just ripped off many people for a half-cocked eyeball copied story and plot. Because he is famous we are of course angry with him, but most comic fans make fun of Greg Land for his tracing escapades.
I think overall the comic book community (especially artists) are just plain angry because even with a tracing job of a famous manga most of us who draw in that style couldn't get work from a credible publishing company even if we slept with the editor. In addition, if we did we would have been ruined artistically for years. While this guy will probably get an insignificant punishment. Even Tite Kubo the artist seems to care more that its Gene Simmons son than that he just was ripped off.

Hippie Van
You know, I was reading the article, and a bunch of comments about this whole thing and my thoughts were that yeah, this guy's dumb and a jerk for doing this, but I wasn't feeling particularly upset about it. Then I read zaymac's comment about hot topic stealing from some artist and not removing the design, and that DID make me mad.

I think that's because Bleach is a really popular manga.
I mean, if this guy had been stealing art from someone on DD I would be livid! I guess I just don't feel like anyone got ripped off here? Especially since as it is, they found out, pulled the manga for now and Simmons junior probably won't get the chance to publish another comic after this.

One of the comparison posts I read on this shows that he DID apparently steal from someone on DA - two in fact. :/ One a Bleach fanart and the other an original character. The comparisons are at this link: http://community.livejournal.com/bleachness/446299.html?thread=11026523#t11026523

Wow we finally get some controversy around here. Reminds me of the praying squirrel incident.


I'm shocked at how obvious it is...

-One thing to trace panels/poses
-another thing to not change the art style
-and to take it from a very popular manga.

All together... no just no..

Oh gosh... I hope that comic doesn't get published. Let it burn.

Eunice P
Here's a good article that discuss about the issue with plagiarism not just about Nick Simmons but also on other comic fans and artists.

http://manga.about.com/b/2010/02/26/nick-simmons-bleach-manga-plagarism-scandal-rocks-the-comics-twitterverse.htm

Another thing... after reading article.

I don't sell drawing fanart at artist alleys. Lots of AAs now are banning the selling of fanart.
I do go to the point of making similar things like cute cats or dogs in clay that look like they may be from an anime. I do wonder how far is too far. One can not claim every blue eyed white cat as their own and say everyone else is copying them.

I think it is possible to get ideas for poses from manga. (and from that article, I think it is completely fine to draw poses for comics from photographs.)

It just can't be combined with style, character design and tracing like Nick Simmons.

Mitaukano
While this article is extremely good at talking about the issue and explaining the differences in publishing in Japan and North America, I do feel it also tries to vilify the odd and prickly area that is fan art, and compare it to out and out tracing.
What the author did is really use this whole incident as a platform to discuss fandom and its bad points in North America. She also seems to be almost defending someone who just ripped off many people for a half-cocked eyeball copied story and plot. Because he is famous we are of course angry with him, but most comic fans make fun of Greg Land for his tracing escapades.
I think overall the comic book community (especially artists) are just plain angry because even with a tracing job of a famous manga most of us who draw in that style couldn't get work from a credible publishing company even if we slept with the editor. In addition, if we did we would have been ruined artistically for years. While this guy will probably get an insignificant punishment. Even Tite Kubo the artist seems to care more that its Gene Simmons son than that he just was ripped off.

I doubt she's defending his comic. She does see a major problem ripping other artists' work in this article. She was comparing how some artists can get away so easily by ripping others' work while Nick gets the greatest limelight here. The problem is that there are also many fan artists that trace original artworks exactly yet they can get away by selling their artworks and claiming it's not their own.

http://comipress.com/article/2007/07/09/2267

Apparently copying is nothing new.

JillyFoo
Another thing... after reading article.

I don't sell drawing fanart at artist alleys. Lots of AAs now are banning the selling of fanart.
I do go to the point of making similar things like cute cats or dogs in clay that look like they may be from an anime. I do wonder how far is too far. One can not claim every blue eyed white cat as their own and say everyone else is copying them.

I think it is possible to get ideas for poses from manga. (and from that article, I think it is completely fine to draw poses for comics from photographs.)

It just can't be combined with style, character design and tracing like Nick Simmons.

See, I am actually glad to see this. I've been to a few conventions and usually been disappointed to go to and Artist's Alley and see so many people doing unlicensed/fan art efforts. I may be in the minority, but I actually ENJOY seeing new characters and concepts and am far more interested in buying a good illustration or work of something from that creator's mind than just a rehashing of Inuyasha or Capt America. UNLESS, it's by someone that may have actually worked for a bit on those characters at some point.

I actually struggled with this, as I am starting up on the Con circuit this year, and after a lot of deliberation, I decided not to do any fan art of any kind. All of my stuff I will be selling will be of my own characters, my own creations. I figure it keeps me on the level, and I don't send mixed messages to people wanting me to do a sketch of another character.

I might lose out on a buck or two, but honestly, like my first show this year, there are a couple of older Marvel and DC pros that will be there. Like ANYONE is going to come up to me and ask for a Sketch of Batman or Iron Man if there are those guys at the convention. LOL!

And believe me, I've known people that do Cons and say that that's the only way to make money because of the way that convention goes are and what art they want.

I guess it'll be an uphill battle for me, but I just can't bring myself to go the route of fan art for profit.

Just...wow.
I don't see a problem with using other works as reference material (poses, perspective, etc.), but copying the EXACT ARTSTYLE and blatantly TRACING OVER someone else's work like that is just inexcusable.

Ah, but I notice the problem with these plagiarists is that it gets out of hand and turns into an all-out witch hunt. As soon as word gets out that one's a plagiarist (actually the term comics use for trace-overs is to "swipe" [en.wikipedia.org])everyone is going to point out similarities even where they don't exist. I already see people stretching to compare things that really aren't that similar. Tracing over a drawing? Diabolical. Having a character with the same hair color? Now, let's be reasonable. I think the youtube video on the site that JillyFoo linked points this out better than I will. Sometimes things look like each other out of pure coincidence, sometimes not. Because Simmons has already been caught with his pants down, it's easy to find all kinds of dirty deeds of swiping even if they don't have ground. Like, for example, what is up with the 2 full Incarnate pages posted up with no Bleach/other manga comparisons made? Not everyone is a Bleach fan and knows exactly what is being copied there. It just makes the "list of crimes" look longer even where there's no comparison to be made.
But when you couldn't tell the female characters apart if they were both in Black & White, there's the real crime! The fact that the one guy is the same as the dude from Bleach but with different hair and a scar, that's terrible. But when people are saying that scar is exactly like Sir Crocodile from One Piece, they lose me. I've seen a more comparable scar (especially without stitches) elsewhere. There's a thin line between being cliche and outright copying.

Make no mistake, I am NOT defending Simmons and his ilk, I'm just saying let's try to keep this thing in perspective. Any one of you artists could be accused of swiping from a picture or artist that you've never even heard of because the sheer amount of art out there makes it nearly impossible not to have an idea/drawing that's at least a tiny bit similar to one out there already. And whether you traced or not doesn't matter, because when people are determined, they will find the tiniest grain of sand and make it into a boulder. As soon as someone makes one comparison, they can make more and it doesn't matter how much of a stretch it is, as soon as the stretching starts no art you produce is safe from being scrutinized.

Living under a rock and avoiding other people's art, not watching popular shows or reading popular books, or never using reference won't save you, either. Some fanatic on the internet doesn't know you well enough or even trust your word when you honestly tell them you haven't heard of the material you're "ripping off", or even drew yours first.

Just saying, let's not have this turn into a witch hunt, and let's not start blurring the lines on what is acceptable "evidence" because it could be you that they come after next, and you'll find that the same tenuous logic you used on someone obviously guilty can be used to make your innocent coincidences look just as bad.

Amelius
Living under a rock and avoiding other people's art, not watching popular shows or reading popular books, or never using reference won't save you, either. Some fanatic on the internet doesn't know you well enough or even trust your word when you honestly tell them you haven't heard of the material you're "ripping off", or even drew yours first.

UGH! That's happened to me more than a few times. -_-

The sort of people who make those claims are usually so limited in experience and knowledge that they wouldn't actually have any idea about the things that influence me, the references I use or or the stuff I base my ideas on. - so often it's a get a bit of a laugh out of the claims.

The evidence is quite clear from that livejournal link. They posted the copied art and lined it up against the Bleach manga as transparent layovers. It's pretty plain to see that the majority looks like direct tracing with details in the same exact spots and all.

Knuckles
The evidence is quite clear from that livejournal link. They posted the copied art and lined it up against the Bleach manga as transparent layovers. It's pretty plain to see that the majority looks like direct tracing with details in the same exact spots and all.

I think that's pretty much 100% agreed by everyone here :)

But Amelius is right about the temptation to widen the focus further.

lol! Haha, one would have to be really deliberately ignorant to say that those weren't clear cases of copying, to the point of being deranged! But it's those examples that have solid proof, not the ones where "this guy kinda looks like Alucard a lot/little." Let's call a rose a rose, but let's not start calling the petunias roses because they're in the same garden.
I'll just say I've seen things like this spiral out of control over very weak comparisons. I'd rather not see that sort of thing happen to someone innocent again. When we start making claims on poses and scars and hair, we're starting down that road. Swiping= VERY bad. Stealing plot elements=VERY VERY bad. Stealing character designs and adding the most minor tweaks=Really bad. Being unable to develop your own style to the point that your art looks exactly like another's =heavily frowned upon, but not the worst crime.
Using the pose of a dude in another manga or a magazine as reference because it's exactly the pose you want for your manga? Is this really as bad? I'm inclined to say no. How about you? There's no copyright on poses. If they're ripping off the poses in consecutive order, that's when the line has to be drawn.

http://comicsworthreading.com/2010/03/01/nick-simmons-releases-statement-takes-no-responsibility/

Okay, so now he's saying he's sorry people didn't get what he was doing... THAT'S NOT AN APOLOGY!

“Like most artists I am inspired by work I admire. There are certain similarities between some of my work and the work of others. This was simply meant as an homage to artists I respect, and I definitely want to apologize to any Manga fans or fellow Manga artists who feel I went too far. My inspirations reflect the fact that certain fundamental imagery is common to all Manga. This is the nature of the medium.

“I am a big fan of Bleach, as well as other Manga titles. And I am certainly sorry if anyone was offended or upset by what they perceive to be the similarity between my work and the work of artists that I admire and who inspire me.”

Druchii
Okay, so now he's saying he's sorry people didn't get what he was doing... THAT'S NOT AN APOLOGY!

Oh it's the best kind. lol!

Eh, it's a lame cover for what was basically simple but very badly done short-cutting to save time. They're idiots (him and his whole team).

ozoneocean
Oh it's the best kind. lol!

Eh, it's a lame cover for what was basically simple but very badly done short-cutting to save time. They're idiots (him and his whole team).

Dude, he would have done SO much better for himself by just being quiet. I mean there was no real way to walk out of this unscathed, but by all measure, Manga fans are devout and relentless in protecting their own, and that will haunt him for a long while. Hell, people to this day still have a go at Rob Liefeld!

Why didn't he just pour gravy on himself and go naked wrestle some hungry polar bears? He'd have stood a better chance surviving that. LOL!

Druchii

ozoneocean
Oh it's the best kind. lol!

Eh, it's a lame cover for what was basically simple but very badly done short-cutting to save time. They're idiots (him and his whole team).

Dude, he would have done SO much better for himself by just being quiet. I mean there was no real way to walk out of this unscathed, but by all measure, Manga fans are devout and relentless in protecting their own, and that will haunt him for a long while. Hell, people to this day still have a go at Rob Liefeld!

Why didn't he just pour gravy on himself and go naked wrestle some hungry polar bears? He'd have stood a better chance surviving that. LOL!

Hey, crappy as Liefeld's stuff is, at least he never pulled anything like this. I'll take wonky anatomy and tiny feets and pouchespouchesPOUCHES!!! over this any day. And I never thought the day would come when I would say that. o_O

Dextra
Hey, crappy as Liefeld's stuff is, at least he never pulled anything like this. I'll take wonky anatomy and tiny feets and pouchespouchesPOUCHES!!! over this any day. And I never thought the day would come when I would say that. o_O

I know, I thought about this and somewhere he got a phone call about all of this:

"Hello, this is Rob."

"What? Really? You mean someone upped the d-baggery factor above me? And no one's talking smack about me anymore?!"

*Hangs up and does a dance*

"YES! YES!!! FINALLY I CAN GET SHATTERSTAR the MOVIE made!!!! And no one will hate me anymore! JOY!!!"

Actually, Liefeld got caught tracing couple of times too. Things like the SHIELD flying ship thingie (forgot what it's called) and couple of pics where the character absolutely had to have feet, haha.

And if it's meant to be an homage, you sign the image that it's "after ". Like the variant covers to No Hero are based on the classic covers by McFarlane, Steranko, Perez etc. (Which is the most recent thing read by me and the hardcover has all the variants, thus using it as an example).

Aurora Borealis
Actually, Liefeld got caught tracing couple of times too. Things like the SHIELD flying ship thingie (forgot what it's called) and couple of pics where the character absolutely had to have feet, haha.

LOL! Yeah, I suddenly remembered a whole panel layout he swiped from Frank Miller's Ronin...

Here's the link!

http://www.heromachine.com/2009/07/10/reason-12c-yet-more-bad-swiping/#more-4463

Druchii
http://comicsworthreading.com/2010/03/01/nick-simmons-releases-statement-takes-no-responsibility/
Okay, so now he's saying he's sorry people didn't get what he was doing... THAT'S NOT AN APOLOGY!
“Like most artists I am inspired by work I admire. There are certain similarities between some of my work and the work of others. This was simply meant as an homage to artists I respect, and I definitely want to apologize to any Manga fans or fellow Manga artists who feel I went too far. My inspirations reflect the fact that certain fundamental imagery is common to all Manga. This is the nature of the medium.
“I am a big fan of Bleach, as well as other Manga titles. And I am certainly sorry if anyone was offended or upset by what they perceive to be the similarity between my work and the work of artists that I admire and who inspire me.”

You know, I would actually gain some of my non-existent respect for him if he actually apologized properly instead of jumping through hoops to try and explain that it's our fault that we're upset.

Now I just hate the guy more. I don't understand why people like him (anyone who traces and denies it) constantly shoot themselves in the foot by not fessing up and getting over it, yanno? All he has to say is 'I copied, I'm sorry, I won't do it again.'

Amelius
Like, for example, what is up with the 2 full Incarnate pages posted up with no Bleach/other manga comparisons made? Not everyone is a Bleach fan and knows exactly what is being copied there. It just makes the "list of crimes" look longer even where there's no comparison to be made.

From my understanding there was a period when the author of that blog was just posting random pages from the comic and waiting for people to reply with what part of Bleach the art was stolen from.



But anyway, yeah, Liefeld is a bad example because dude is a notorious swiper. There are whole websites dedicated to his many swipes throughout the years. Granted, he doesn't have any whole books that are almost entirely stolen from other sources, but still, he's had legal trouble in the past as a result of similiarities between his work and the work of others.

Thanks Inkmonkey, that didn't occur to me! And that's really sad that you can grab any page and there's something swiped in it. If anything, this Simmons fellow has made a very fun Easter-egg hunt for the manga fans!

But wow...his statement on the matter... I've seen less bulls%&# on a ranch! Homage? It's called tracing, you tracing tracer! I'm inspired by artists I admire too, but my comic doesn't have traced photos of Pepe le Pew and Beetlejuice in it! (I think the word he was going for was "influenced" because simply being motivated by something doesn't make you inclined to copy it!) Sure, people trace things all the time in pro works, but mostly architecture and objects. One supposes that if that's common practice, what difference is tracing people and comics as well? I know a LOT of people here have admitted to getting images off Google and incorporating them into their work. This doesn't excuse what he did, but it does make one see why he probably thinks he did no wrong here.

It is just as Sir Walter Scott said

"Oh! what a tangled web we weave
When first we practise to deceive!"

It is just getting to be a sticker mess, and it is starting to call into questions practices of many other comic makers in the market. This is a good thing. But again as a rabid anime fan, I have to say I am not as rabid as everyone else about this is. Shocked yes, more shocked that a 21-year-old man would do this and not a 14-year just starting to draw comics. Though a lot of those 14 year olds (and younger) know better than to do this sort of thing. I am reminded though of a point made in one of the articles when these so called 'fans' of Tite Kubo get called out for their net pirating of his stuff they will simply say "there's nothing wrong with that”.
In the end, though I think this whole thing has brought some much-needed interesting discussion to this forum. Everyone has made excellent points, counter points, and look, we are all still civilized, no one’s pulled a "U R STOOPID BLEAXH RULZ”, and I know I certainly have been enjoying reading it. So I guess Kudos to Mr. Simmons for making us talk like adults and not just throw around the insults willy-nilly. Though we do seem to keep making fun of Nick Simmons, and Rob Liefeld.

Mitaukano
In the end, though I think this whole thing has brought some much-needed interesting discussion to this forum. Everyone has made excellent points, counter points, and look, we are all still civilized, no one’s pulled a "U R STOOPID BLEAXH RULZ”, and I know I certainly have been enjoying reading it. So I guess Kudos to Mr. Simmons for making us talk like adults and not just throw around the insults willy-nilly. Though we do seem to keep making fun of Nick Simmons, and Rob Liefeld.

LOL! You know, you have a point there. Maybe the good point to this as you motion towards is it takes a really screwball situation to make us all think about WHY we do what we do with comics and why no matter what level we might be at, we TRY to make something that is uniquely our own.

At least that's what I've taken from this. And it made me want to work that much harder on my own stuff. {:)

Mitaukano
So I guess Kudos to Mr. Simmons for making us talk like adults and not just throw around the insults willy-nilly.

Eh, that's pretty much business as usual here most of the time. It's rare that we don't talk like adults in the DD forums :)

...One of my fave things about the place actually ^___^

ozoneocean
Eh, that's pretty much business as usual here most of the time. It's rare that we don't talk like adults in the DD forums :)

...One of my fave things about the place actually ^___^

I have been pleasantly surprised here as I have seen none of the idiotic talk I am used to which is generally, why I avoid forums like the plague. This debate overall has intrigued me as we have also managed to stay on topic for the most part.

I wonder if they're going to adddress this whole issue in the Gene Simmons reality show. That's partly why this has gotten so much media coverage: the production of the comic was apparently documented during the show, and the published comics were heavily promoted on the A&E website. However, Nick seems to be wholly in denial of the whole thing, and I wonder if he's going to let such a negative, career-killing thing be put into this documentary of his life.

It's kind of like on that Jon and Kate show while their marriage was starting to fall apart. You couldn't go five seconds without hearing from some gossip source the status of their marriage, but the show tried its damnedest to make it look like everything was more or less normal for about half a season.

Mitaukano

ozoneocean
Eh, that's pretty much business as usual here most of the time. It's rare that we don't talk like adults in the DD forums :)

...One of my fave things about the place actually ^___^

I have been pleasantly surprised here as I have seen none of the idiotic talk I am used to which is generally, why I avoid forums like the plague. This debate overall has intrigued me as we have also managed to stay on topic for the most part.

Oh gosh... you should (not) see that Simmon's Deviant Art page and the traced DA gallery pic belonging to that other studio. So much hate.