Have you noticed that a lot of the more popular straight comics have added a gay character/are a gay character/add some gay subtext plot?

Really popular ones off the top of my head:
misfile
penny&aggie/cool cat studio/menage a'3
Marry me
flipside
...every popular comic written by a girl.


Even real comics from Marvel and DC have been at it. (like bat woman and y the last man and runaways...sorry i'm not updated on American comics.)



So the question:
Am I going nuts from being closeted or do i need to read more gaming comics devoid of character development?

And; what are your views on gay characters in comics? For or Against?



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I'm hoping any debate will be kept light as to not scare away either view point :)


Me personally:
I welcome it! But I get a bit irritated if the gay characters a 'pining hopelessly after straight character' or if in yaoi(gay boys) comics the main male characters look and act like girls. -_-

If people want their characters and casts to be realistic or to represent a cross-section of society, then why not? The only time I'm irritated by the addition of a gay character is when that character is used solely for humor value...or if the focus is on that character BEING gay. Sometimes creators mistake homosexuality as a personality trait, and it isn't.
/2 cents

amanda
Sometimes creators mistake homosexuality as a personality trait, and it isn't.

They can be forgiven for that. For years in the media the "gay" person was represented by the camp stereotype. And even now, many openly gay people in the media play up their campishness. Even non-cap actors like Steven Fry or Sir Ian McKellen will play up this silly camp act when they're "showing the gay side" publicly. And in that Will and Grace show, all you ever really saw were people being in caricature mode.
-While about half the openly gay women you see DON'T play up to the stereotype... (butch etc)

For a lot of people, those are the only gay people they really know about: the camp, obvious ones in the media. So it's not surprising that in their comics they'd show up that way too.

I have a problem with it because of the reasons ozone mentioned.

Most gays are just portrayed as shallow, undefined characters obsessed with sex, cleaning, decorating etc. I find shallow and undefined characters in the vast majority of stories to be highly irritating for their lack of depth and usefulness to the story. For the most part I've come to feel that a character's sexuality is better off downplayed or merely hinted at rather than pointed out and pushed. So far as stories go, being gay is just another character trait ( Which is different from a personality trait, in that it's just describing them rather than an integral part of who the character is. ) and it doesn't need more attention than any other character trait such as physical description.

I think there's good and bad sides to adding a gay character (or characters) to a comic.

Good-

-It shows that you're trying to show all of society instead of what is just expected.
-I can lead to a larger audience (which could be bad, in a way).
-And it could reveal that the author does not hate gays

Bad-

-Someone might use the "stereotypical" gay man or gay woman. You know, the ones who fit perfectly into the American Gay stereotype (always sex hungry, clean, dress up like girls, shop, act like men*, ect.) *for lesbians
-They could be using gays in a comic to make gays in general look bad (like mentioned above, to use the stereotypical gay).

Obviously, there's more than than just what I mentioned, but it's early. I personally think that if gays are used correctly in a comic, then they wont seem like a character whose sole purpose is to advance the plot.

I mean, I'm a freakin' furry. I've seen my fair share of gay fur comics whose characters purpose is to either have sex or be with a another guy (and the author writes like, 150 page long comics just about two dudes and then that's the end of it).

Gay characters are treated like props and plot devices, instead of characters as the name would suggest.

It's complicated though... Neither of the two comic examples, while ostensibly about homosexuality, is really going after the "gay" stereotype. And the gay stereotypes we're talking about are very real- all of them: camp, bitchy, into antiques, clubbing, easy sex, interested in art, interested in ballet, being hair dressers, working as dancers, very clean, clean house, good sense of taste, dressing well...
I've met people like that.
Then there are all those that don't fit those types.
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As the guys are saying though, it depends on why they're there in the first place. Maybe the author is gay and that's just the way they depict relationships? You could have gay characters because you're just reflecting what happens in real life- that within any group there's likely to be one of two gay people. Or maybe the gay person's there for dumb cheap laughs... But making fun of gay people is almost moving to be sort of like making fun of black people and ethnic minorities: just not right any longer. That's interesting.

to me being gay are normally treated like women or minorities they get killed, beaten, or they loose something dear in a bad way. I also feel that most of the time a lesbian would be portrayed mostly to make for exploitative reasons not because they're saying something deep

Gay characters in and of themselves are not annoying - a sexual orientation is just a sexual orientation - but the way that gay characters are treated annoys me. In the hands of a good writer/artist/comic creator, I don't mind them - because good comic-creators tend to treat gay characters as characters - but a lot of the time, it comes out very wrong.

Gay characters are reduced to a set of stereotypes, and never rise above them. But then, this is just another instance of my hate for shallow, stereotypical characters - it's got nothing to do with whether they're gay or not. Unfortunately, gay characters tend to get the worst of it.


... Am I making any sense at all, or am I just rambling?

I approach "gayness" the same way I approach "conservatism", or "bigotted", or any other condition of the human animal. No trait is the be all, end all of a character, but simply one of the walls their reactions to life bounce off.

Too often such traits or perspectives are judged as the ultimate illustration of a character. I know plenty of conservative gay people as well as a good number of christians that aren't raging hypocrits. I think that the problem is that too many creators come at the characters with an agenda. Either the writer wants to defame one group and/or defend another. Or they simply have had no honest exchanges with the type of individual they are writing.

My gay character in Broken is very flambouyant. Not because I'm trying to make him silly, but because that character is the type that works with the type of story I want to tell. While he may be very effiminate, he's a very strong person with a strong POV. I'll soon be adding a character who is an unapologetic fundamentalist christian. I hope to write her as realistically as I do all the others, avoiding the stereotype, & instead hoping to create a realistic character with a very strong opinion.

I hate that a good deal of writers choose stereotypes over substance. I've dropped pleanty of books because I'm getting preached at (both by liberals and conservatives) instead of reading a good story.

Later,
C

On a slightly different but (I think!) related note ...

I've been asked before whether one of my characters (Boo) is a lesbian. From certain things she's said, I can understand why someone might have got that impression. The answer - at least for me - is no, she's not. (In fact, in the back of my mind, I've always thought she has a certain fondness for one of my male characters, Doug).

But, what went through my head when I read the question was - hey, if you want her to be a lesbian, then why not? I don't actually make an issue of the sexual orientation of any of the characters in Shades because it just isn't relevant to the story. From that point of view, therefore, if a reader wants to believe male character X is gay or female character Y is lesbian, then good luck to them.

I find it quite cool that a character who isn't specifically written as being either gay or straight can be interpreted either way, because, in real life, that's how it works. People are defined by what they do, not by who they're attracted to and so, unless someone is deliberately making an issue of their sexuality, you can't really tell what their orientation might be.

I'm going to swerve way off topic and go to TV. You know one that really stands out to me is the series torchwood where everyone pretty much have sex with whatever and really it only works for Captain Jack if you asked me, and James Marster but I'm a Spike fan...but most of the time it felt kind of forced in the series. Where I thought it was really fun to watch was in Doctor Who when Jack would hit on everything, for some strange thing it seems less like a whack in the face that he's bi. Then again he and Ianto did share something

I dislike any kind of prop/stereotype character regardless of that is being stereotyped. If it is just part of who they are as a person and not simply a token character, it's cool. I don't like to see any character defined by a single characteristic or trait.

DAJB
But, what went through my head when I read the question was - hey, if you want her to be a lesbian, then why not? I don't actually make an issue of the sexual orientation of any of the characters in Shades because it just isn't relevant to the story. From that point of view, therefore, if a reader wants to believe male character X is gay or female character Y is lesbian, then good luck to them.

I had to chime in after DAJB's post. No one has made any mention of sexual preferences of any of my characters or anything. (The actual couples I've presented are man-woman -- but usually not very "solid" relationships.) However, through a little referral script on my counter (and through project wonderful), I found a link to my comic on a lesbian blog. I kinda thought that was cool. I don't know why, but I did. If there weren't the straight love interests in the story, I can see people interpreting the friendships between some of my ladies in a different light. I think it is kinda neat. There is a fine line between a close friendship and a romantic relationship. (I think the lesbian link is just because of all the strong female characters in my story, regardless of their romantic leanings.)

I'm all for gay people in comics, but in a lot of mainstream stuff it seems like they are forcing gay people in just to make a statement. (And by people, I mean, of course, women.)

My favorite example of this is Grace and Thunder. Grace, a woman renound for sleeping with almost every male in tights in the DC has a friendship with Thunder and then, BAM!, they are deeply and totally in love. Not to mention, before this revelation, Thunder was portrayed as very feminine and after she came out she was spontainously butch. If you're going to write gay characters, do it like Marvel did Wiccan or DC did for Bombshell. Have it be a natural part of the character, not something jammed in to add diversity.

I dont mind gays in comics.

I'm along the same lines as DAJB here. Let the audience think whatever they wish. Quite a few of my readers have thought Fenny and Sally to be 'secret lovers'

I only have 1 character that on few occasions will actually truly show and indication of being gay. Though my personal opinion is that the character isn't exactly gay... just open to the same team a bit.

I don't see this future character ever actually trying to form a relationship with the same sex.

And I don't care if a comic has gay characters if I enjoy the comic. Normally comics that are driven by that I seem not to care much about.

EDIT: Interesting note. One of my original ideas for Fenny and Sally in Off Hours was for them to actually be lovers in real life =p

I'm going to swerve way off topic and go to TV. You know one that really stands out to me is the series torchwood where everyone pretty much have sex with whatever

I thought that was Gray's Anatomy.
(Gawwwwd I hate that show.)

Right, if you're doing your job correctly in regards to gayness in your comics, the readers should not be able to say with certainty that character X is gay unless he/she grabs a member of the same sex and frenches him/her.

(Even then you may not be able to tell) xD

Edit: Oh wow... EISU! So that's what he's doing nowadays.

I like my gay vampire characters. Blood's not the only thing they suck!

flipside? ive been searching and i can't find it! if its not out of your way, could someone send me a link? thx!

samarita
could someone send me a link

Flipside
You got it! =]

Is this happening because homosexuals can take a joke better than other groups?

I like them becoming developed characters with maybe an occasional joke. LOL@batman and superman

To add to the list of popular comics with gay characters
Applegeeks - Gina
PVPonline - Gwen
Questionable Content - Tai
Dominic Deegan - Szark

I've mentioned that I have written gay characters before, back in the 1990s. I was going through a mental exploration of writing different types of characters and storylines, when I was still doing superhero comics. My best friend at the time happened to be a lesbian, and I'm sure that was an influence, too. :)

Never one to write a simple plot, I had several characters in different storylines that ended up crossing into two of my comic books. Only one character was a flamboyantly gay young man, although he was in one of the funniest scenes I think I've ever written. It wasn't so much about him being deliberately funny as the ridiculous overreaction/annoyance he got from the female superhero (in civilan guise) character he was driving nuts because he was paying more attention to what he was saying/gossipping than actually washing and cutting her hair and nearly ended up manhandling and drowning her in a wash basin (I know, stereotypical job as a hair stylist, sorry).

In my other comic, I had a male mercenary villain character in a relationship with a female evil sorceress. The sorceress sent him on a mission to infiltrate their nemesis (from the second comic), a superhero team called The Star-Men, because her daughter was one of the superheroes on that team and the sorceress wanted the mercenary to protect her from a threat to her life...so the sorceress picked the perfect disguise: she turned him into a drop dead gorgeous female. You have to admit, the idea of a villain sending a villain to protect a hero -- therefore making the villain a hero -- is a pretty funny irony (although I treated it very seriously at the time).

Anyway, it worked. "She" (the mercenary's name was Nimrod) was able to infiltrate the team and accomplish her mission. However, upon celebrating the success of her mission, Nimrod went with the team to a bar and got quite drunk (the concept of a superhero team getting into civilian clothing and going for drinks was hilarious to me then, I'd never seen it done before). Nimrod ended up waking up the next morning, shocked to realize that she'd picked up a guy and brought him home and slept with him. Worse, she ended up getting pregnant from the encounter, which rendered the original enchantment (that made him a her) permanent. This infuriated "his" girlfriend, the evil sorceress and crashed/burned their relationship, to say the least.

Not to be deterred, I even created a four-issue limited series to their eventual reunion as a couple.

I've always felt that any character should be made worth reading, regardless of their gender, age, race, culture, religion, orientation, etc. To me, the important thing is that they're believable. They can be shallow or heroic or funny or dispicable or intense or whatever, as long as they convey something and serve some purpose in the story. I hate throwaway characters and one-shot wonders, I see little purpose in them (but then again, I like recurring gags like crazy!)

To be honest, I haven't been bothered by gay characters in comics, as long as a complete and well written storyline was thrown in the mix as well. So in other words, I ordinarily have no problem with gay characters in comics :3.

I'm not sure if this is on the same topic or related at all, but I have lesbians in my comic o.O. And the fun thing is these characters don't exactly come across as being lesbians because 1) they act/look quite feminine 2)they've been with guys before 3) They aren't what I would consider to being "classic butch" :3.

There are a huge amount of gay people in the world, and many of them would be totally different if they weren't gay. It's not cheap, it's just reality.

I added a couple of lesbians into my comic just to throw people off, actually. People were like "OH SHE'S THE MAIN FEMALE IN THIS, SHE'LL GET TOGETHER WITH SO AND SO" and I was thinking, actually, she's shown no affection towards any men ever and she's pretty masculine. She's probably gay. I didn't really know that, I gave her a character and then it became apparent. Which was kinda weird.

Custard Trout
Gay characters are treated like props and plot devices, instead of characters as the name would suggest.

This idea is ripe for parody. SOMEONE GET ON IT NOW.

Hard-Money was the gay character in my comic, which was filled with an entirely straight cast minus him. I didn't treat him as a prop though. He had his own spin-off and everything, was even one of the most loved characters.

lefarce
This idea is ripe for parody. SOMEONE GET ON IT NOW.

Didn't MARINE try this idea already in pages of PENIS before he took it off of Drunk Duck?

If I'm wrong Marine, then I apologize.

I think you're right. Penis parodied everything. Even parody comics.

Some rambling thoughts.
it's kind of an evolution in the media.

The usual problem with gay characters, is that it always has that undercurrent of (loud whisper) sex!

At first, Gay people were mostly invisible. The comics code edited them out

Someone
1954 Code highlights
# Illicit sex relations are neither to be hinted at nor portrayed. Violent love scenes as well as sexual abnormalities are unacceptable.
# Sex perversion or any inference to same is strictly forbidden.

Then they become a joke or a monster, something to be feared, lurking in the dark, or something to be made fun of, and dismissed.
Slowly they could be more real characters, so long as they ended up either dead or deeply unhappy by the end of the story.
HIV and AIDS was a mixed blessing. It killed a lot of us, but it forced us to grow up and fight for more than not having our bars raided. We no longer were willing to allow the only depiction of us to be monsters, miserable or a bitter joke without comment or discussion.

Will and Grace was great for acclimating wide audiences to gay culture. Jack was over the top, but he was counter balanced by the near ordinary Will. The tone was different now. Jack was happy in his shallowness. He was not using humor to hide his inner misery. He apologized to nobody about being gay.

Gay characters became the plot device de jour, around the time of Will and Grace and Queer as Folk. It was strange watching them retrofit heroes and villains to be gay or trying to introduce new ones. Northstar might have been gay, or he could be an elf. WTF?
It seems to be sorting out, the worst of the refits and originals are being forgotten, the good ones are lasting. It's settling down so it's a aspect of the character, not the whole characters reason for existence. It's not being apologized for, or ridiculed or feared.
Gay character still do suffer from being sexless. "It's ok to be gay, so long as we don't have to see it." This discussion here touched on that. The gay characters are ok, so long as they are low key, ie don't show them kissing. (unless they are women? WTF?)

Anyway, I liked the two guys in Young Avengers or how it was handled in top 10 with Jet Man and his partner or ( wayback machine ) Enigma.

Jimeth
There are a huge amount of gay people in the world, and many of them would be totally different if they weren't gay. It's not cheap, it's just reality.

I probably would be different if I were straight. I'd also probably would be different if I were not an artist, or if I was not a man, or if I was black or if I had been raised as a Southern Baptist or a Muslim.
If you can, please elaborate on what you meant?

freefall_drift
the worst of the refits

Those are bad. Retroactive gay characters. It's so jarring and artificial because it changes the mental structure you build up about a character and a story from viewing or reading that in the past. It'd be as bad if the character was always seen as gay and suddenly they're made out to be straight all along lol!

But that's not bad because of sexuality, that's just bad because of clumsy god-modding, which is shocking whatever form it takes ---> suddenly all magical powers in a story actually have a scientific basis etc.
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Will and Grace was quite funny and well done, but Will didn't come off to me as an ordinary gay person contrasting with Jack's silliness, he just seemed like a repressed version of jack in a lot of ways. He was way more way out than the ordinary professional gay men I've known.

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Queer as folk is a good show. The British version showed me two main things:
-How depressing the club culture is.
-And how uncomfortable gay people must feel during all the straight love scenes in movies and T.V. :)
I say that with humour, but it really does teach you empathy in that regard. Till I saw that show I didn't realise how different it must be for a gay person, and it's no wonder gay people have felt so excluded and marginalised for so long.

You watch it and you think... Ewww... and then realisation dawns: "oh jebus, this is what it must be like for these guys watching most TV and movies for the past 100 years or so" o_O
So, yeah, it's a good thing.